Lets make minion master amazing!(PvE focus)

[Lily.1935]

One of the builds with the most fan fair around it and most requested for builds and guides for is the Minion master build. But over the years its been shown time and time again that even in open world you would be far better off running full signets than running minions due many factors including travel time to their target, low damage, easily cleaved down(even with the damage reduction change some years ago) and the fact that taking their minion traits actively huts your overall DPS by about 20-35%. Some of the minion skills aren't bad themselves because they have utility that the necromancer wants but as a cohesive group they're worse than the sum of their parts which is not what we want for a minion build. So How could we make minions as a good build while still maintaining their normal utility focus? Well This post is some ideas to help buff minions to give them the bonuses they need to be good as a build while not losing their utility focus. With this change minions will be much stronger with death magic than without so there will be incentive to take it if you want to run this build.

Traits

• Master Trait: Death Nova When you or one of your summoned objects or creatures is downed or disappears , create a Poison Nova. Summon a jagged horror when a mark skill is triggered(Max of 5 jagged horrors can be summoned this way in PvE and 2 in PvP. When the cap is reached it wont summon more until one or more of them die). I wanted to buff this trait but I also want to give it some more use outside of just minions. So its death nova effect would also trigger when one of your sand shades vanishes or other future summons the necromancer might obtain like spirits or spirit weapons. I'm always in favor of future proofing death magic and this is one method I've considered for a long time. Added to this is triggering summons on mark use because I think necromancer should have more mark skills and this gives necromancer a dedicated minion master weapon to aid their build.
• Adept Trait: Boon of Creation On summoning a object or creature adjacent allies gain protection for 3 seconds and convert 1 condition into a boon(180 Radius). 5 second cooldown. Again I wanted this to work with other things aside from just minions. This rewards you for summoning, so it would work with minions, Manifest sand shade or a future skill like spirit or spirit weapons. A simple idea, this might be a bit too strong but the idea is there.
• Grandmaster Trait: Order of Undeath Minions from Summon minion Skills inherit Your attributes(50%-100% in PvE and probably 20% in PvP). When you enter shroud and each second in shroud Minions copy your boons for 2 seconds. (In PvP they wouldn't copy all of your boons. Quickness would be excluded as would stability and might would be at a reduced rate.) This would be the the peek of minion's power. limiting this to only minion skills but suddenly each one can act as a real source of damage. Yes I removed the stat bonuses they get from the other traits they used to have but here I give them far more and better than that, making them real sources of damage. In combination with the master tier version of death nova we could see that gap in damage between the other builds close pretty majorly.

The trait changes are pretty extreme and they all still work very well with minions but I wanted them to offer more utility to builds outside of that except for the grandmaster which I feel should be the reason you want to run a Minion master build. Next we'll be looking at 2 of the minion skills. I do feel that most of the minion skills are perfectly fine as they are now. But there are 2 minions which under preform significantly.

Skills

• Bone Minions Increase minion count from 2 to 3. Bone minions now work on the charge system. If you have fewer than 3 bone minions every 5 second summon a new bone minion until you have 3. Even without the other changes I've suggested this would actually make bone minions a fairly decent choice for something like a scourge who doesn't want to take Signet of undeath. Its utility isn't as great as the signet so it does offer a very different style for different builds. However with the other changes with its blast now scaling with Order of Undeath this becomes an actual bomb for the minion mast to use.
• Bone Fiend - Bone Rain Replacing Rigor Mortis. 3/4s cast time. Command your bone fiend to summon a hail of Splintering bones to rain from the sky, bleeding and crippling foes. 240 radius 5 second duration with pulsing damage. 20 second cool down. I'm not sure on the damage scaling. At its base it would be worse than a well but when you trait for it with the Bone fiend inheriting your traits it would be similar in damage to a well with the bleed added on that aiding the damage a bit further. I sorta imagine this acting similarly to thousand needles when activated. An initial rain of bones followed by a pulsing bleeding and crippling field.
• Mark of Horrors Replaces Soul Grasp on Focus. Inscribe a mark that damages(damage is roughly that of chillblains) foes and summons a bone minion at that location that lives for 30 seconds. If you have Summon Bone minions equipped these minions do not expire. You can have a max of 5 bone minion at any time. 2 charges. Recharge 15 seconds with a 3 second cooldown. This is a fairly odd idea that asks you to run a specific weapon with a specific utility skill for maximum value gained from it. But I find this concept to be really interesting. This one is a bit out there as far as suggestions go, but I figured I'd throw in something that we haven't seen on necromancer. I think of this as a fun build running a power minion build using Axe with Focus summoning more bone minions to be a real minion bomber either using the skill to start the re summoning process from Bone minion skill or stacking 5 bone minions to spike an enemy down. The combine utility makes it quite the enticing build to toy with.

Here are some of my suggestions. This wouldn't do much to change the builds which already use minions for their utility but this could build up some unique minion builds. Such as core minion master or scourge. I think reaper could work too but One of the changes I suggested did exclude "Rise" from being influenced. So who knows. Perhaps my summoning jagged horrors on mark use is too strong, perhaps not. Maybe this wouldn't be enough. But regardless of what Arena net decides in the end I, and many others, strongly desire to have a fun, strong and viable minion build in all PvE content and not just a functional but bad build in Open world.

There's a lot they could do with minions and these suggestions here are a mix of some extreme changes that do very little to change minions for builds that don't dedicate to using death magic. With these changes it does give a strong incentive to build into them for either a power build or a condition build. Have I gone too far with these suggestions? not far enough? let me know.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Lily.1935

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Mechanist is a kitten to the game, i do not want another ai base build like it for necromancer.  Necro minion master is in the right place for an ai based build, mechanist needs to be nerfed to its level.

[Lily.1935]

43 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Mechanist is a kitten to the game, i do not want another ai base build like it for necromancer.  Necro minion master is in the right place for an ai based build, mechanist needs to be nerfed to its level.

So useless... How about not... Mechanist needs to be tuned down but Mechanist as a design is good for the game. And I can explain why.
 

1. People with disabilities should be able to enjoy the game too and having easy to use easy to run builds is important.
2. People with lousy connections or live in places with poor connections like Australia should be able to enjoy the game and what it has to offer as well.
3. We should want the game to be inclusive to more people.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

13 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

So useless... How about not... Mechanist needs to be tuned down but Mechanist as a design is good for the game. And I can explain why.
 

1. People with disabilities should be able to enjoy the game too and having easy to use easy to run builds is important.
2. People with lousy connections or live in places with poor connections like Australia should be able to enjoy the game and what it has to offer as well.
3. We should want the game to be inclusive to more people.

This is the most bigoted statement I have ever read. Saying disabled people have to play ai driven builds to be able to play the game is very belittling.  This is not removing barrier of entry like not having changable keybind or color option, or bad color contrasts for aoe circles, this is having the game play itself removing all agency and mastery for these players. Baconboy is a great example of how having these options has allowed him to show mastery. Instead of focus on what you think people can not do, allow them the opportunity to show what they can do.

[WhimsicalPacifist.2943]

37 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

This is the most bigoted statement I have ever read. Saying disabled people have to play ai driven builds to be able to play the game is very belittling.  This is not removing barrier of entry like not having changable keybind or color option, or bad color contrasts for aoe circles, this is having the game play itself removing all agency and mastery for these players. Baconboy is a great example of how having these options has allowed him to show mastery. Instead of focus on what you think people can not do, allow them the opportunity to show what they can do.

This.

Played Arah on launch when it was still a dungeon and couldn't get through the dark stupid corridor with the AoE's that all blended together.  Still waiting for contrasting AoE markers that don't blend in.

As for minions, maybe implement the GW1 mechanic of upkeep via Shroud, Blight or Health?

Edited September 17, 2022 by WhimsicalPacifist.2943

[Lily.1935]

53 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

This is the most bigoted statement I have ever read. Saying disabled people have to play ai driven builds to be able to play the game is very belittling.  This is not removing barrier of entry like not having changable keybind or color option, or bad color contrasts for aoe circles, this is having the game play itself removing all agency and mastery for these players. Baconboy is a great example of how having these options has allowed him to show mastery. Instead of focus on what you think people can not do, allow them the opportunity to show what they can do.

No, it is not bigoted to talk about people with disabilities and providing accessibility to them. Its pretty disingenuous to suggest that I would say they're only allowed to play those builds which I didn't say. Looking at it realistically there are physical limitations that prevent people from being able to play a game at a certain level that is often required for end game content. To have options that players can choose that don't require nearly as much physical input from them is a good thing.  With some builds requiring half a second reaction time to reach even a decent damage potential having easier builds is necessary.

And if that's the most bigoted statement you've ever read you've never read anything. Because its not bigoted at all. And it disgusts me you would suggest that as someone with multiple disabilities where people like you would get angry at me for asking for help in things I can't do. Recognizing when people have physical limitations caused by a disability is not bigotry.

But honestly, if you're going to act like that, we're done here, I'm not going to take anything you say seriously because you're not looking for a discussion just a knee jerk reaction over your irrational fear of AI builds.

Also... If you think I'm bigotted, you should talk to Mukluk as well since he's a partner... Literally he talks about a person trying to play the game with one arm...

 

[Obtena.7952]

Let's get back on topic:

It's a valid suggestion to expand and improve LI build performance if Anet does actually intend for  the current mechanist situation. MM necro is an obvious next step, as would be Ranger or even Guardian Spirit Weapons. 

I don't actually think the changes MM necro would need to do this are complicated. Obviously it's a Scepter build, Obviously it's a Death Magic with all top traits. IMO, add appropriate DPS increases to any of those minion traits and it's there. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

I'd still have that eternal argument that minion generation need to be baseline (on a minor trait) to justify such focus on minions on major traits.

Thus, I'd welcome an e-spec with baseline minion generation, either on the main mechanism skills or on weapon skills changed when taking the spec (it's been done for other e-specs already so it's possible), along traits in line with how you picture boon of creation.

On another hand I don't think trait like your order of undeath would do much good to the necromancer. So I'd rather have the necromancer avoid this landmine.

 

As for the skills:

- Summon bone minion: First, if you want a skill to summon minions every few second, signets are the proper skill type for that. Furthermore, the main issue of the summon bone minion skill is not the number of bone minion it summon but it's active skill (putrid explosion) which isn't really supported by traits and have an effect which is both underwhelming and unreliable.

- Bone fiend - Bone rain: I'm sold! Take my money!

- Mark of horror: I do understand that it's an bvious thing to introduce within the trait logic you've suggested in the first part of your thread, but I do not think it's the proper thing to do. The trait that summon minions upon triggering a mark is simply to skewed toward staff to be something that can realistically introduced in the game. Adding a mark skill onto a single off-hand isn't gonna make thing better.

 

So, again, I believe, the proper way to implement some of those idea is through an e-spec.

[Lily.1935]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'd still have that eternal argument that minion generation need to be baseline (on a minor trait) to justify such focus on minions on major traits.

Thus, I'd welcome an e-spec with baseline minion generation, either on the main mechanism skills or on weapon skills changed when taking the spec (it's been done for other e-specs already so it's possible), along traits in line with how you picture boon of creation.

On another hand I don't think trait like your order of undeath would do much good to the necromancer. So I'd rather have the necromancer avoid this landmine.

 

As for the skills:

- Summon bone minion: First, if you want a skill to summon minions every few second, signets are the proper skill type for that. Furthermore, the main issue of the summon bone minion skill is not the number of bone minion it summon but it's active skill (putrid explosion) which isn't really supported by traits and have an effect which is both underwhelming and unreliable.

- Bone fiend - Bone rain: I'm sold! Take my money!

- Mark of horror: I do understand that it's an bvious thing to introduce within the trait logic you've suggested in the first part of your thread, but I do not think it's the proper thing to do. The trait that summon minions upon triggering a mark is simply to skewed toward staff to be something that can realistically introduced in the game. Adding a mark skill onto a single off-hand isn't gonna make thing better.

 

So, again, I believe, the proper way to implement some of those idea is through an e-spec.

We actually used to have minor traits which summoned minions but that wasn't good for death magic at the time as it forced death to use AI, which is an issue I wanted to avoid.

I think a Minion elite spec would want to use their new skill type, whatever that might be, so Minion skills need to be able to stand on their own. Some minion skills currently do. Blood Fiend, Shadow fiend, Flesh Wurm and Flesh golem are all good skills at what they're trying to do. However I like the idea of transformative traits which change the function of skills even if mechanically they look the same. Deathly Chill being a great example of this where it turns all chill sources into a DPS increase which I think is really cool. Minion skills which are typically taken for their utility could have that same function change for DPS could also be really interesting. But that's my opinion.

I'm all for a Minion master elite spec, I've designed like 3 of them over the years. First one I designed used a shroud and was more of a tank but the second 2 were more in line with reaper using their F skills like commands with F1 being a summon. In those designs though the necromancer didn't get new minion skills but rather a new utility type which didn't summon minions but supported minions and other allies in some way.

Part of the design of the Grandmaster trait that I've suggested is to aid Minion Skills specifically. Not the Jagged horrors, shambling horrors or unstable horrors. Minion damage currently is so significantly weak I'm not sure how much they'd have to inherit for stats to be usable as a build. But this design has been requested for minion and turrets for a decade now. This trait is honestly a compromise to that.

As for Mark of horror. I can see where you're coming from. However, I still strongly believe having a core weapon which supports minions is necessary for the class fantasy of the game. Weapons can help actualize the design of a build and make it more engaging. Perhaps mark of horror isn't the right skill.

On elite spec I don't see why you can't have both. The Feel of a Summon Minion skill build vs a Minion master elite spec would be significantly different from each other because one would want to use the minion skills while the other might not take any of them in favor of the new utility. There doesn't have to be an either or, there can be a both.

[Lily.1935]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Let's get back on topic:

It's a valid suggestion to expand and improve LI build performance if Anet does actually intend for  the current mechanist situation. MM necro is an obvious next step, as would be Ranger or even Guardian Spirit Weapons. 

I don't actually think the changes MM necro would need to do this are complicated. Obviously it's a Scepter build, Obviously it's a Death Magic with all top traits. IMO, add appropriate DPS increases to any of those minion traits and it's there. 

They recently said they still want it to be viable. They understand that its a bit too oppressive at the moment and its being tuned down but they don't want to remove it from the meta. They mentioned this on Friday.

As for the MM suggestions I've made, I actually think the build in question is simple but not nearly as simple as Mechanist. I think timing your Rain of bones and putrid explosion would be pretty important. I don't think it would be a difficult build, but its not a AFK build. You'd still need to do the normal Weapon rotation along with your shroud rotation for it to work properly.

Minions only attack approximately every 3 seconds so getting them those boons like quickness would be key to the build's success..

On ranger and Guardian. I don't know enough about ranger to really suggest anything and for guardian I do miss the old spirit weapons but I don't think we'll be seeing those old versions again.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Death magic is fine as is. It is used in very popular wvw and pvp build. As long as the trait line revolves around death carapace, you should be doing less damage than build that do not give the bonus toughness. Death carapace should not be changed because it is popular and balanced in pvp and wvw. Again basic philosophy of risk vs reward, when you have death carapace and meat shields soaking damage, you should do less dps. 

The LI craze is the worse balance philosophy in the games history. This has lead to the worst class representation ever.  Luckily solar is no longer with the company, so he can no longer hurt the game.  When you do 80% of the max damage possible on a class by just auto attacking, there is no reason to get better when the effort does not scales with the reward.  This just actively make the playerbase worse.

Minion master should be a beginner build. Very safe, allow people to learn the basics of the game. But they should not stay on it forever. Eventually they should graduate to risker more complex builds and get rewarded with faster kills by removing the train wheels of death carapace and meat shields.  

Again stating people with disabilities have to stay on LI builds is very belittling. With proper keybinds, the game can be played 1 handed, watch baconboy.

[Lily.1935]

6 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Death magic is fine as is. It is used in very popular wvw and pvp build. As long as the trait line revolves around death carapace, you should be doing less damage than build that do not give the bonus toughness. Death carapace should not be changed because it is popular and balanced in pvp and wvw. Again basic philosophy of risk vs reward, when you have death carapace and meat shields soaking damage, you should do less dps. 

The LI craze is the worse balance philosophy in the games history. This has lead to the worst class representation ever.  Luckily solar is no longer with the company, so he can no longer hurt the game.  When you do 80% of the max damage possible on a class by just auto attacking, there is no reason to get better when the effort does not scales with the reward.  This just actively make the playerbase worse.

Minion master should be a beginner build. Very safe, allow people to learn the basics of the game. But they should not stay on it forever. Eventually they should graduate to risker more complex builds and get rewarded with faster kills by removing the train wheels of death carapace and meat shields.  

Again stating people with disabilities have to stay on LI builds is very belittling. With proper keybinds, the game can be played 1 handed, watch baconboy.

1. This post isn't about PvP or WvW. So "Death is good in wvw and pvp" is completely irrelevant

2. When I'm talking about people with disabilities I'm talking about myself as well. Sometimes I can't run my favorite builds. Condi scourge is my favorite and sometimes it physically hurts to do its skill rotation. And that's often considered a simple and easy to use build. Should I just NOT play the game during that time? To me, you're actually being belittling. "Oh, you can't play this build? Come on baconboy can, you should be able to as well!" Well, I'm not bacon boy.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Lily.1935

[Aktium.9506]

Give me back Jagged Horrors that can live indefinitely like they used to.

I want my horde of 30 rats back

[Artificer.3468]

I really like the bone minions idea but I really feel like it should be using our crit stats by default for putrid explosion 

 

The bone fiend active also sounds cool .

 

Not really a fan of the focus 4 idea but the rest sounds good . I enjoy reading your suggestions. 

[Lily.1935]

1 hour ago, Artificer.3468 said:

I really like the bone minions idea but I really feel like it should be using our crit stats by default for putrid explosion 

 

The bone fiend active also sounds cool .

 

Not really a fan of the focus 4 idea but the rest sounds good . I enjoy reading your suggestions. 

Thanks.

And yeah, that was sorta a odd idea to begin with. I wasn't 100% on that idea, but wanted to present it as a possibility anyway.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

On 9/19/2022 at 1:42 PM, Lily.1935 said:

1. This post isn't about PvP or WvW. So "Death is good in wvw and pvp" is completely irrelevant

2. When I'm talking about people with disabilities I'm talking about myself as well. Sometimes I can't run my favorite builds. Condi scourge is my favorite and sometimes it physically hurts to do its skill rotation. And that's often considered a simple and easy to use build. Should I just NOT play the game during that time? To me, you're actually being belittling. "Oh, you can't play this build? Come on baconboy can, you should be able to as well!" Well, I'm not bacon boy.

Honestly, if it physically hurts to play the game, you probably should not play it or find ways to make the rotation not be painful. For example, i use a corsair mmo mouse so my right hand thumb can take some of the load off my left hand fingers. 

Asking for radical trait and skill changes in pve only is not going to happen. The dev have said that they do not want skills and traits to behave differently when you go from one game mode to another, they just want the numbers to be adjusted. Changing death carapace would effect all game modes

 

[Kaladel.1670]

3 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Changing death carapace would effect all game modes

Carapace was bad design from the day it was implemented. Changing it for all game modes wouldn't be bad at all.

[Sobx.1758]

Hell no. Minions are fine for what they're doing. Don't buff minions and nerf mech instead.

 

On 9/17/2022 at 10:42 PM, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Mechanist is a kitten to the game, i do not want another ai base build like it for necromancer.  Necro minion master is in the right place for an ai based build, mechanist needs to be nerfed to its level.

Agreed!

 

 

On 9/17/2022 at 11:28 PM, Lily.1935 said:

• People with disabilities should be able to enjoy the game too and having easy to use easy to run builds is important.

And they are able to enjoy the game and do have easy to use builds. Doesn't mean those builds need to overperform. Pulling these "but think about people with disabilities!" for any idea someone wants to push through is such a cheap move. But as already mentioned: there are viable low intensity builds in the game for the players to use. Not the excuse to buff them or push into meta by making them overperform with minimal/no input.

On 9/17/2022 at 11:28 PM, Lily.1935 said:

• People with lousy connections or live in places with poor connections like Australia should be able to enjoy the game and what it has to offer as well.

Trying to balance an online game around faulty connection or hardware is generally an awful idea detrimental to the rest of the game and its playerbase. Just like above, that's a pretty cheap excuse.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Lily.1935]

8 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Honestly, if it physically hurts to play the game, you probably should not play it or find ways to make the rotation not be painful. For example, i use a corsair mmo mouse so my right hand thumb can take some of the load off my left hand fingers. 

Asking for radical trait and skill changes in pve only is not going to happen. The dev have said that they do not want skills and traits to behave differently when you go from one game mode to another, they just want the numbers to be adjusted. Changing death carapace would effect all game modes

 

You need to read more clearly because you seem to be cherrypicking what you want to respond to. Since my trait changes are PvE primarily focused, yes, but the changes have been considered for PvP as well with specific balance in mind as well. AND these changes aren't nearly as radical as you might think. its pretty tame to be perfectly honest.

On top of that, you are actually being pretty bigoted and belittling. Telling me I shouldn't play during those times. When I have an option to play another build I like. The Mechanist build. Means I can still raid with my friends. Pretty nice to have actually.

I also didn't mention Death carapace in this post. And my feelings on that mechanic are irrelevant to this post.

[Lynx.9058]

I love minions for my necro, but the #1 change I want to see right now is skins for them.  I'm tired of them all looking like low-poly meatbags.

Give me proper skeletons and zombies.

[The Boz.2038]

Minions need to have lower base damage, and scale off player stats at least a tiny bit. A Trailblazer and a Berserker minion should not hit the same!

Death Magic is the right (and only!!!) place for minion-related traits. And there should be a maximum of three of them, non-competing!

[Lily.1935]

On 9/23/2022 at 9:45 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

Minions need to have lower base damage, and scale off player stats at least a tiny bit. A Trailblazer and a Berserker minion should not hit the same!

Death Magic is the right (and only!!!) place for minion-related traits. And there should be a maximum of three of them, non-competing!

With the scaling suggestion I made in this post in PvE the minions damage would spike pretty majorly. In PvP the passive 20% boost from stats would be much lower value than what they get now from traits. Personally, I think the trade off is fair. A single trait which boosts minions would be nice.

Looking at PvE, A minion build could probably reasonable get to about 28k with the changes. MAYBE 30k on scourge. But its really hard to say for certain. It wouldn't reach anywhere near what's the best of the best, but it honestly doesn't have to. Just needs to be good enough.