Are Druids really going to replace Scrappers after balance?

[Custodio.6134]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Well yeah. Because Shadow Refuge sucks. But so does Sneak Gyro. Just use a smoke field and blast it. Its way better.

using a random smoke field over a sneak gyro is just wasted stealth uptime.
The stealth you gain from blasting sneak gyro (which itself is a smoke field ) adds up into the pulsing stealth you gain from the gyro directly. how should a smoke field (that doesnt grant stealth on its own) create more stealth uptime from nothing?

Edited September 18, 2022 by Custodio.6134

[UNOwen.7132]

1 minute ago, Custodio.6134 said:

using a random smoke field over a sneak gyro is just wasted stealth uptime.
The stealth you gain from blasting sneak gyro (which itself is a smoke field itself) adds up into the pulsing stealth you gain from the gyro directly. how should a smoke field (that doesnt grant stealth on its own) create more stealth uptime from nothing?

Random smoke fields dont have 60 seconds of cooldown.

[Custodio.6134]

7 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Random smoke fields dont have 60 seconds of cooldown.

and yet, that cooldown won´t matter. 
there are 2 scenarios where you use stealth: 

1.  if you weren´t spotted by the enemy yet
2. re-stealthing to break line of sight for a short period of time

in case 1, the cooldown doesn´t matter, because you want to use the advantage of surprise and most likely finish up the fight before the enemy can even react. if the enemy manages to react in time and the fight goes on, you most likely won´t re-stealth with smoke fields, as you need to disengage first in order to get rid of random combo fields beforehand. 

in case 2 the enemy has already seen you, so they expect you to either move or stealth. if you decide to stealth, you will also most likely use sneak gyro, as no even remotely useful build has smoke fields equipped (exception: dps-bomb-kit scrapper, which is a niece pick and never present in every subgroup, so it won´t be enough to stealth anyway). which brings us back to case 1: the cooldown doesn´t matter. also: veil exists

Edited September 18, 2022 by Custodio.6134

[UNOwen.7132]

11 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

and yet, that cooldown won´t matter. 
there are 2 scenarios where you use stealth: 

1.  if you weren´t spotted by the enemy yet
2. re-stealthing to break line of sight for a short period of time

in case 1, the cooldown doesn´t matter, because you want to use the advantage of surprise and most likely finish up the fight before the enemy can even react. if the enemy manages to react in time and the fight goes on, you most likely won´t re-stealth with smoke fields, as you need to disengage first in order to get rid of random combo fields beforehand. 

Would be a shame if you had a gyro over your head giving away your position. You used to be able to justify that by it being mobile, but now its not.

11 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

in case 2 the enemy has already seen you, so they expect you to either move or stealth. if you decide to stealth, you will also most likely use sneak gyro, as no even remotely useful build has smoke fields equipped (exception: dps-bomb-kit scrapper, which is a niece pick and never present in every subgroup, so it won´t be enough to stealth anyway). which brings us back to case 1: the cooldown doesn´t matter. also: veil exists

You will most likely use veil. You will not use sneak gyro. Its not good anymore. Realistically Scrapper will just be cut in its entirety and you will be on Tempest anyway. 

[Jski.6180]

35 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Its a lot weaker. The smoke field is as good as thieves pistol 5, which wow, thats not very good. And the reveal thing, I already explained why its moot.

Sneak Gyro and Bulwark gyro also pulse.

Burst clear are called that because they happen instantly, not over 2.5 seconds. Its a very good condi clear, but its not a burst clear.

3 nearly instantly is burst, yes. Also, the cast time there is an issue, but the much longer one on fumigate is not? That doesnt make sense. Oh and as for transmute auras radius, that one can be an issue, but its still a decently large radius.

Blast Gyro is unusable. Full stop. Saying that its usable is a skill issue. It doesnt matter if you know where they want to go, its a very obvious area that takes 3 goddamn seconds  to blow up. No one is ever going to be hit by it. They can literally just walk through it or around it. It doesnt matter how low its cd is either, its unusable because it will never hit it. 

What set of rules? The wells dont have any set set of rules. Thieves shadowstep the thief for example. No other well does that. Should we remove that? Mesmers wells have an effect when the well ends, should we also remove that? Yeah no, the "they must play by the well rules" thing is kitten. As they are, is perfectly fine. 

 

No, supports would absolute hate that. It would make them so much worse. It would instantly make Tempest unplayable. No, the gameplay of supports is timing your skill. It is not aiming, because none of them ever aim. Also whats the counter to shouts, hm? It sounds like you just dont play support and dont get it.

It give you an stealth in it self that alone makes it worth it.

They do not pulse clear my point i was making there.

2.5 sec IS burst timing for 5 condi clears.

But not 2? The ability to clear in a given time fram is what defines the burst of an clear. 240 is very short for wvw made worst if you as an tempest is missing super speed to keep up hehe.

You not played the patch. Full stop. You have no ideal. Its ok i believe in your ability to understand timing.

Skills tend to do the same type of use base off of the skill type. A well is an pAoE with an pulsing effect that is also a field. They tend to be low cast times and have strong effects. Much like shouts are centered on the caster and only have one pulse. There is an set of rules or they are just name only.

Tempest would be unplayable if its shouts where wells with pulsing effects and field types? So like say flash freez was an frost field that pulses chill and reg on a 900 range cast, or maybe feel the burn would be a fire field that pulse burn and might on a 900 range would be unplayable? Or! if Rebound was an 900 ranged cast that would "reaz" down players or at least give them a shield of some type as well as be a field of your given atument and puls out an boon base off of that atument as well. I want my tempest after shock to be a 900 ranged pulsing "earth field" (we need an earth field!) that puls root and protection.

Please stop pretending that the gyro update is remove effects from the gyro they are only making them stand still like every other pulsing aoe skill in the game.

GW2 is not a game of butten press see hp bars move up its a game of knowing when hits are coming and getting heal and boons off before or as though hits are coming in as this game was not made with healing main classes in mind so what healing we have is very in the moment usefulness. Its far worst in wvw then in pve hehe. We dont have a cure spell that heals nor do we have the time to cast that heal.

 

[UNOwen.7132]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

It give you an stealth in it self that alone makes it worth it.

No, because the stealth it gives is very little. Blinding Powder gives more if you want to move.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

They do not pulse clear my point i was making there.

2.5 sec IS burst timing for 5 condi clears.

No, it isnt, over that timeframe a lot of classes can cleanse more.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

But not 2? The ability to clear in a given time fram is what defines the burst of an clear. 240 is very short for wvw made worst if you as an tempest is missing super speed to keep up hehe.

The ability to clear a lot of them instantly is what defines a burst clear. Also, you do realise gyros arent much bigger than 240, yes?

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

You not played the patch. Full stop. You have no ideal. Its ok i believe in your ability to understand timing.

One does not need to play the patch to see a reduction of gyros effectiveness by 80% is going to kill it.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

Skills tend to do the same type of use base off of the skill type. A well is an pAoE with an pulsing effect that is also a field. They tend to be low cast times and have strong effects. Much like shouts are centered on the caster and only have one pulse. There is an set of rules or they are just name only.

Wells are pulsing effects that are fields. That is quite literally the only commonality they have. Them being ground-targetted is not, nor does it have to be, a commonality. Its a Gyro. It moves. Of course the well can move then. Just like Thieves shadowstep, so their wells come with shadowsteps. "Is stationary" is not a rule for wells.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

Tempest would be unplayable if its shouts where wells with pulsing effects and field types? So like say flash freez was an frost field that pulses chill and reg on a 900 range cast, or maybe feel the burn would be a fire field that pulse burn and might on a 900 range would be unplayable? Or! if Rebound was an 900 ranged cast that would "reaz" down players or at least give them a shield of some type as well as be a field of your given atument and puls out an boon base off of that atument as well. I want my tempest after shock to be a 900 ranged pulsing "earth field" (we need an earth field!) that puls root and protection.

Yes, if Tempest shouts were ground target wells with pulsing effects, with the effect of the spell split across the pulses (aka you have to get the full well duration to replicate what it does now), they would be unplayable. And yes, if Rebound was a well, it would be unplayable. Imagine creating an effect that makes them not get downed, and they have to stay in it. Lmao that would be a worse version of Glyph. 

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

Please stop pretending that the gyro update is remove effects from the gyro they are only making them stand still like every other pulsing aoe skill in the game.

And that is removing effects, by making their functionality much much worse. Please stop pretending like they arent going to be massively weaker. Also, no, its not "like every other pulsing aoe skill in the game". Please look up Herald and Overloads for example.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

GW2 is not a game of butten press see hp bars move up its a game of knowing when hits are coming and getting heal and boons off before or as though hits are coming in as this game was not made with healing main classes in mind so what healing we have is very in the moment usefulness. Its far worst in wvw then in pve hehe. We dont have a cure spell that heals nor do we have the time to cast that heal.

 

Yes, and its also not a game of "oh you dont have to move, so just stand in this buffing area". 

[Jski.6180]

9 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

No, because the stealth it gives is very little. Blinding Powder gives more if you want to move.

No, it isnt, over that timeframe a lot of classes can cleanse more.

The ability to clear a lot of them instantly is what defines a burst clear. Also, you do realise gyros arent much bigger than 240, yes?

One does not need to play the patch to see a reduction of gyros effectiveness by 80% is going to kill it.

Wells are pulsing effects that are fields. That is quite literally the only commonality they have. Them being ground-targetted is not, nor does it have to be, a commonality. Its a Gyro. It moves. Of course the well can move then. Just like Thieves shadowstep, so their wells come with shadowsteps. "Is stationary" is not a rule for wells.

Yes, if Tempest shouts were ground target wells with pulsing effects, with the effect of the spell split across the pulses (aka you have to get the full well duration to replicate what it does now), they would be unplayable. And yes, if Rebound was a well, it would be unplayable. Imagine creating an effect that makes them not get downed, and they have to stay in it. Lmao that would be a worse version of Glyph. 

And that is removing effects, by making their functionality much much worse. Please stop pretending like they arent going to be massively weaker. Also, no, its not "like every other pulsing aoe skill in the game". Please look up Herald and Overloads for example.

Yes, and its also not a game of "oh you dont have to move, so just stand in this buffing area". 

In gw2 using stealth field is base off of number of ppl blasting if your spaming an stealth field like blinding powder you will miss time the blast of your gorup. So sure you can have more stealth fields but they start to becoming pontless. Having an field that also gives stealth and is an smoke field  IS better for its use in wvw.

Tempest is a 4 sec time farm is that a burst clear?

Now gyro are ground targeted they are any where from 240 to 1140 as needed. The point is you do not need to be the center of the skill you chose where that center is and its better over all for a game like wvw.

If every one is moving at full speed free from all cc effects in the game and comply brain dead for both the caster and the ppl who need that support.

They are also fields and are all ground targeted it was only gyros that where not. Now its fixed. The thf ones are still ground tarted and fields just because you can jump with them realy dose not change the type of skill it is. Its like getting annoyed at eye of the storm or stand your ground a stun brake because the other shouts dont stun brake. Or getting buged that tempest shouts give auras and gurds shouts dont.

If all they where was just fields they would be stronger for tempest then there shouts lol. You wildly underestimate what fields can do in this game and it makes me very sad. At this point i suggest asking for gyro not to be wells and be some type of un-killable pet that moves with you and not be a field it feels wasted on the scraper player base if this is how they see it.

Its up to the player for pAoE functionality. If you miss place it they should do nothing. Herald is not a field. Tempest must channel there overload for 4 sec (sadly not all of the overloads are fields too).

Or just know where ppl are going to move to get them into the buffing area. You cant fix bad players if they run out of your aoe that on them not you.

[UNOwen.7132]

3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

In gw2 using stealth field is base off of number of ppl blasting if your spaming an stealth field like blinding powder you will miss time the blast of your gorup. So sure you can have more stealth fields but they start to becoming pontless. Having an field that also gives stealth and is an smoke field  IS better for its use in wvw.

Tempest is a 4 sec time farm is that a burst clear?

So you will mistime in a field like blinding powder, but not in a field like Stealth Gyro? Huh? I dont think you know what youre talking about yourself. And the stealth it gives is pitiful, it barely makes a difference. And Tempest has actual burst clears.

3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Now gyro are ground targeted they are any where from 240 to 1140 as needed. The point is you do not need to be the center of the skill you chose where that center is and its better over all for a game like wvw.

If every one is moving at full speed free from all cc effects in the game and comply brain dead for both the caster and the ppl who need that support.

"Its better overall for a game like WvW"

Tell me you do not play WvW without telling me you do not play WvW. No, its much much worse. Please, by all means. Stand in the small AoE to try and get the effect. Oh and dont pay any mind to our sides Hammer Revs preparing to beat the crap out of you for stacking, Im sure itll work out.

3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

They are also fields and are all ground targeted it was only gyros that where not. Now its fixed. The thf ones are still ground tarted and fields just because you can jump with them realy dose not change the type of skill it is. Its like getting annoyed at eye of the storm or stand your ground a stun brake because the other shouts dont stun brake. Or getting buged that tempest shouts give auras and gurds shouts dont.

If Gyros are not ground targetted, then its not a commonality between them. Its not "fixed", its broken. Please stop trying to create rules that dont exist to try and justify a change so bad, its on par with the initial warrior banner change. Also, youre the one being agree at a well not being ground-targetted, like being angry at stand your ground being a stunbreak. 

3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

If all they where was just fields they would be stronger for tempest then there shouts lol. You wildly underestimate what fields can do in this game and it makes me very sad. At this point i suggest asking for gyro not to be wells and be some type of un-killable pet that moves with you and not be a field it feels wasted on the scraper player base if this is how they see it.

Its up to the player for pAoE functionality. If you miss place it they should do nothing. Herald is not a field. Tempest must channel there overload for 4 sec (sadly not all of the overloads are fields too).

If they were all wells, they would be 10 times weaker for Tempests. You wildly overestimate what fields do, and wildly underestimate the power of not having to stand still in WvW, and it makes me sad to see that you are trying to be smug while being so painfully ignorant. Realistically, there are 2 options. 1, Arenanet listens to feedback, recognises that the Gyro change is very bad and that the handful of people defending it, like you, just dont understand the game, and everything is well and good again. Or 2, they try to force it down our throats, Scrapper stops being played, Scrapper players leave, and the community has no trust in Arenanet listening to feedback again. 1 is the good one.

3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Or just know where ppl are going to move to get them into the buffing area. You cant fix bad players if they run out of your aoe that on them not you.

Youre right, you cant fix bad players. Thats why I cant fix you, and get you to understand that standing still in WvW is a death sentence.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

nope. scrapper has no cd on medkit so nothing will ever replace it, except for another no down time spec like support vindi.

[Jski.6180]

36 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

So you will mistime in a field like blinding powder, but not in a field like Stealth Gyro? Huh? I dont think you know what youre talking about yourself. And the stealth it gives is pitiful, it barely makes a difference. And Tempest has actual burst clears.

"Its better overall for a game like WvW"

Tell me you do not play WvW without telling me you do not play WvW. No, its much much worse. Please, by all means. Stand in the small AoE to try and get the effect. Oh and dont pay any mind to our sides Hammer Revs preparing to beat the crap out of you for stacking, Im sure itll work out.

If Gyros are not ground targetted, then its not a commonality between them. Its not "fixed", its broken. Please stop trying to create rules that dont exist to try and justify a change so bad, its on par with the initial warrior banner change. Also, youre the one being agree at a well not being ground-targetted, like being angry at stand your ground being a stunbreak. 

If they were all wells, they would be 10 times weaker for Tempests. You wildly overestimate what fields do, and wildly underestimate the power of not having to stand still in WvW, and it makes me sad to see that you are trying to be smug while being so painfully ignorant. Realistically, there are 2 options. 1, Arenanet listens to feedback, recognises that the Gyro change is very bad and that the handful of people defending it, like you, just dont understand the game, and everything is well and good again. Or 2, they try to force it down our throats, Scrapper stops being played, Scrapper players leave, and the community has no trust in Arenanet listening to feedback again. 1 is the good one.

Youre right, you cant fix bad players. Thats why I cant fix you, and get you to understand that standing still in WvW is a death sentence.

At the end of the day the scraper still has med kit and exlier gun as well as a number of other support effects for the group over all so there is that too. I love to see support thf get such things but that another talk entrily. Stealth gyro dose bring some stealth to buy some time for the players a kind of blast +1 stealing.

Tempest has more sustain clears it has some burst clears sure but most of its clears are over time.

WvW should be about contorting ground and when to give up control if effects simply stay with you with out a counter then it removes that type of tactics from the game. That kind of how any type of pvp works for the most part in a 3d or near 3d moment environment.

Well are ground tarted pulsing fields if gyros are well then yes they should be ground tarted. If you dont want that then ask for them to be something else other then wells there by changing how they work over all. Much like if i want shouts to be ground tarted pulsing fields i should be asking for the shouts to just be wells and not think that MY shouts should be different from all other shouts in the game.

Then why would gyro that dont act like wells be just as strong as an well skill?

That why you have some of the most broken skills in the game as an eng kits. The gyro are never going to be as strong as that nothing ever could be and most of what eng ever will be and can be will be diluted by kits from the core eng class.

[UNOwen.7132]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

At the end of the day the scraper still has med kit and exlier gun as well as a number of other support effects for the group over all so there is that too. I love to see support thf get such things but that another talk entrily. Stealth gyro dose bring some stealth to buy some time for the players a kind of blast +1 stealing.

And theyre worse, and not even good enough to match Tempest. Sneak Gyro will not be any good anymore too.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

Tempest has more sustain clears it has some burst clears sure but most of its clears are over time.

Most of Scrappers clears are over time. Well, all of them. Tempest has actual burst clears.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

WvW should be about contorting ground and when to give up control if effects simply stay with you with out a counter then it removes that type of tactics from the game. That kind of how any type of pvp works for the most part in a 3d or near 3d moment environment.

What type of tactics would that be? You do realise that making an effect ground targetted doesnt add any tactics, it just makes those effects not worth playing anymore?

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

Well are ground tarted pulsing fields if gyros are well then yes they should be ground tarted. If you dont want that then ask for them to be something else other then wells there by changing how they work over all. Much like if i want shouts to be ground tarted pulsing fields i should be asking for the shouts to just be wells and not think that MY shouts should be different from all other shouts in the game.

Wells are pulsing fields. That is all they are. The ground targetted part is not something that all wells are, see Scrapper. If Gyros are wells, that means nothing. It absolutely DOESNT mean that they should be ground targetted. And it doesnt mean they shouldnt be wells. You keep making a rule where there isnt one.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

Then why would gyro that dont act like wells be just as strong as an well skill?

Theyre not? But wells are stationary, so they are unusable.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

That why you have some of the most broken skills in the game as an eng kits. The gyro are never going to be as strong as that nothing ever could be and most of what eng ever will be and can be will be diluted by kits from the core eng class.

Engineers kits are its identity. Thats the point.

[Soilder.3607]

Right now prior to the Oct 4th patch a full heal Druid outheals scrapper (and tempest) while having an equal amount of cleansing. It offers virtually no utility nor defensive boons. I know what the healing and cleanse numbers are because I run arcdps with the healing addon with two guilds who run organized and comped and I see after every fight what the results are in terms of cleansing and healing (but only the healing for those who also have the heal addon enabled). Druid is not meta because it gives no defensive boons or utility. It's also harder to play than Scrapper or tempest. People are also biased against it and don't understand how much it can actually heal and cleanse for.

 

Post patch Druid will out cleanse scrapper by a significant amount (the two strongest cleansing skills on scrapper are getting nerfed, while Druid condi cleanse on seed of life is being reduced by 1 but the skill is being made much more reliable with bigger AoE and 0 cast time) and outheal it by an even greater amount than before. It will also give strong uptime on group prot, will have hard group stab on the elite glyph, 50% group fury uptime and will be able to grant 25 stacks might to it's subgroup in exchange for a 20% loss of healing (lingering light vs. Grace of the land tradeoff). The issue druid had previously of CA form not being ready before a fight was solved when lingering light got buffed to recharge CA Mode every 3 seconds. They gave that buff to Natural Mender which now means all Druid builds will have CA Mode recharged before fights regardless of what master trait they choose.  Post patch Druid will have the best ratio of combined healing and cleansing vs. Any other support. Take my word on it. Tempest (dagger/focus shout variant) will out cleanse Druid post patch, not by a large amount but by small amount (10-15% more cleanse) but druid will outheal tempest by 2x as much (right now tempest is lucky to get 3k healing per second in fights while druid easily hits 5k). Heal Vindicator will outheal druid post patch by a decent margin (20% more healing maybe? Gap between druid and Vindi healing will be reduced after patch with druid heal buffs) but will have only half the amount of cleanse. FB is for stab obviously but still offers moderate cleansing (if taking cleanse mantra) and healing but obviously druid already outheals and outcleanses it and this will only be improved post patch but druid doesn't compete with FB spot anyway.

 

Issues of ground targeted skills that druid relies on that people bring up? Those are player skill issues. If I can achieve high cleansing and healing on Druid then anyone can. They just have to understand how druid works in large scale.

 

Post patch druid will become a viable healer (even though I already think it is) by the standard of most WvW guilds. Idk if it will be considered the meta healer in replacement of scrapper. But it will be viable and quite strong.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Soilder.3607

[Jski.6180]

16 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

And theyre worse, and not even good enough to match Tempest. Sneak Gyro will not be any good anymore too.

Most of Scrappers clears are over time. Well, all of them. Tempest has actual burst clears.

What type of tactics would that be? You do realise that making an effect ground targetted doesnt add any tactics, it just makes those effects not worth playing anymore?

Wells are pulsing fields. That is all they are. The ground targetted part is not something that all wells are, see Scrapper. If Gyros are wells, that means nothing. It absolutely DOESNT mean that they should be ground targetted. And it doesnt mean they shouldnt be wells. You keep making a rule where there isnt one.

Theyre not? But wells are stationary, so they are unusable.

Engineers kits are its identity. Thats the point.

Tempest stealth? I wish unless you mean underwater hehe.

Scraper stacks its clears that is its burst. A tempest can only clear from one skill at a time most the most part as they have cast time.

Moving in the game and fight of wvw. That is the tactics of wvw realty all 3d pvp. It makes ppl chose where to go and where to cast have you never played staff ele? Or realty any class but say scraper with with i am guessing just gyros lol.

Then maybe you should ask for gyro not to be pulsing fields. Stop tying to make a bad balance chose of giving scraper movable wells the ONLY way eng can have wells.

Wells are the strongest tool in wvw they have been for years now. Being able to cast them at 900 was an boon for these skill use not harmful.

Eng core identity was tool belt but kits add so much to the eng class and its elite spec that they simply overwrite any identity.

 

My suggestion is try to play staff ele or necro to get ready for pAoE of gyros.

[UNOwen.7132]

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Tempest stealth? I wish unless you mean underwater hehe.

I was talking about healing and cleanse. Scrapper wont have stealth either, sneak gyro is unplayable.

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Scraper stacks its clears that is its burst. A tempest can only clear from one skill at a time most the most part as they have cast time.

And scrapper also can only clear from one skill at a time. Meanwhile Ele can actually clear from multiple at the same time. You dont actually know either class, do you?

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Moving in the game and fight of wvw. That is the tactics of wvw realty all 3d pvp. It makes ppl chose where to go and where to cast have you never played staff ele? Or realty any class but say scraper with with i am guessing just gyros lol.

You mean the build that is extremely unplayable in WvW for exactly that reason? Also fun fact: I dont actually play Scrapper anymore. I used to play it, got bored, switched to Core Engineer for roaming. I just unlike you do know how the clas works.

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Then maybe you should ask for gyro not to be pulsing fields. Stop tying to make a bad balance chose of giving scraper movable wells the ONLY way eng can have wells.

Or, I can be a good player, unlike you, recognise that the Well design that the gyros had was perfectly fine and in no need of any changes, and would simply ask for a revert.

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Wells are the strongest tool in wvw they have been for years now. Being able to cast them at 900 was an boon for these skill use not harmful.

Tell me you have never played WvW without telling me you have never played WvW.

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Eng core identity was tool belt but kits add so much to the eng class and its elite spec that they simply overwrite any identity.

Tool Belt was not a core identity, it was the result of the kit design. Kits were the core identity.

 

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

My suggestion is try to play staff ele or necro to get ready for pAoE of gyros.

My suggestion is you play WvW and l2p.

[Jski.6180]

20 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

I was talking about healing and cleanse. Scrapper wont have stealth either, sneak gyro is unplayable.

And scrapper also can only clear from one skill at a time. Meanwhile Ele can actually clear from multiple at the same time. You dont actually know either class, do you?

You mean the build that is extremely unplayable in WvW for exactly that reason? Also fun fact: I dont actually play Scrapper anymore. I used to play it, got bored, switched to Core Engineer for roaming. I just unlike you do know how the clas works.

Or, I can be a good player, unlike you, recognise that the Well design that the gyros had was perfectly fine and in no need of any changes, and would simply ask for a revert.

Tell me you have never played WvW without telling me you have never played WvW.

Tool Belt was not a core identity, it was the result of the kit design. Kits were the core identity.

 

My suggestion is you play WvW and l2p.

I get that what your talking about but your making it seem as if the stealth is just magically there for the tempest to have for there group.  Scraper is an requirement to have because of just the stealth gyro.

That how pAoE work you place them on top of each other (as well as other effects) to make a lot of "clears" happen at the same time. Ele cant realty do that mostly due to the channels requirements of there skills and the lack of pAoE condi clears.

If every one is running one class as an support there is something wrong. Ppl are not going to stop running scraper.

Tool belt is the defining effect for the eng class getting 2 utility skills from 1. You can play eng with out kits but you realty have no chose to play eng with out a tool belt.

As you dont play scraper any more it seems i guess you do not have to expand you skill set with ground target pAoE it was just an suggest if you where willing to grow.

[UNOwen.7132]

13 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I get that what your talking about but your making it seem as if the stealth is just magically there for the tempest to have for there group.  Scraper is an requirement to have because of just the stealth gyro.+

Then change the stealth Gyro.

13 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

That how pAoE work you place them on top of each other (as well as other effects) to make a lot of "clears" happen at the same time. Ele cant realty do that mostly due to the channels requirements of there skills and the lack of pAoE condi clears.

If every one is running one class as an support there is something wrong. Ppl are not going to stop running scraper.

Tool belt is the defining effect for the eng class getting 2 utility skills from 1. You can play eng with out kits but you realty have no chose to play eng with out a tool belt.

Engineer doesnt have multiple pulsing AoEs that cleanse that he can use at the same time. Ele however can do it. Since they have pulsing clears that dont require casting. People are going to stop running scrapper, it will all be tempest (aka one class). Tool Belt is secondary, thats why Mechanist doesnt even have Toolbelts. 

13 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

As you dont play scraper any more it seems i guess you do not have to expand you skill set with ground target pAoE it was just an suggest if you where willing to grow.

"Expand your skillset" "willing to grow". You talk big game for someone who doesnt understand that gound target AoEs on support classes are just bad in WvW.

[YTKafka.4681]

4 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Engineer doesnt have multiple pulsing AoEs that cleanse that he can use at the same time.

Medkit 3, Elixir Gun 3, Purge Gyro: "Are we a joke to you?".

Ele doesn't even have Light Fields which can combo off of allies blasts. NGL I love Tempest and it's mostly on par with Scrapper, but Scrapper can split up their Super Speed and Stealth Gyro can still be used if comboed [Medkit 5 -> Stealth Gyro -> Shield 4]. That's STILL 6 seconds of stealth on the run not including the 1 1/2 second stealth from the pulses in addition to hitting allies that are further behind. Even passing through one messes with targeted skills like Scepter 3 on Necro.

What tempest does have is imobs on Earth Dagger 3, might generation, and big healing/cleanse on Exploding the Frost Aura with off hand dagger combined with Flash Freeze to triple up your Frost Aura. (Some people like to use Warhorn, but then again some people like to use Hammer on Scrapper because they think Hammer 5 does things, but you do you.). Problem is there that Water Traitline for clensing on Regen application not only competes with Aura Share, but you also have a completely different weapon set. You might be able to get away with Staff Tempest by relying on the High Target CCs from Unsteady Ground and Static, but then you're completely shifting your focus anyway from cleansing.

Tempest is great, but it's not going to replace Scrapper... especially if they replace Quickness buff with an arguably equally valuable Fury buff. Hell at that rate we might be able to even get rid of Heralds... maybe we'll drop Heralds and take Tempest for Alacrity and to cover cleanses for the Triple support Meme.

[Jski.6180]

17 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Then change the stealth Gyro.

Engineer doesnt have multiple pulsing AoEs that cleanse that he can use at the same time. Ele however can do it. Since they have pulsing clears that dont require casting. People are going to stop running scrapper, it will all be tempest (aka one class). Tool Belt is secondary, thats why Mechanist doesnt even have Toolbelts. 

"Expand your skillset" "willing to grow". You talk big game for someone who doesnt understand that gound target AoEs on support classes are just bad in WvW.

I guess you could make it not a well and more like a spierte wepon like gyros use to be but i am not sure if you want that.

Med kit and exlier gun and purge gyro.

Your an support why are you trying to support your self when you should be supporting other ppl. That kind of the point of playing an support roll.

[UNOwen.7132]

2 minutes ago, YTKafka.4681 said:

Medkit 3, Elixir Gun 3, Purge Gyro: "Are we a joke to you?".

Nerfed, Nerfed, Nerfed into the ground. Good luck matching Tempests condi clears now. They were already competitive, now they just pull way ahead.

2 minutes ago, YTKafka.4681 said:

Ele doesn't even have Light Fields which can combo off of allies blasts. NGL I love Tempest and it's mostly on par with Scrapper, but Scrapper can split up their Super Speed and Stealth Gyro can still be used if comboed [Medkit 5 -> Stealth Gyro -> Shield 4]. That's STILL 6 seconds of stealth on the run not including the 1 1/2 second stealth from the pulses in addition to hitting allies that are further behind. Even passing through one messes with targeted skills like Scepter 3 on Necro.

Keep in mind, were talking post-patch, when that Light Field is much harder to access, and Scrapper loses a ton of condi cleanse. Like Tempest can keep up with condi cleanses now. After the patch the gap will be massive. Like absolutely ginormous. 

2 minutes ago, YTKafka.4681 said:

What tempest does have is imobs on Earth Dagger 3, might generation, and big healing/cleanse on Exploding the Frost Aura with off hand dagger combined with Flash Freeze to triple up your Frost Aura. (Some people like to use Warhorn, but then again some people like to use Hammer on Scrapper because they think Hammer 5 does things, but you do you.). Problem is there that Water Traitline for clensing on Regen application not only competes with Aura Share, but you also have a completely different weapon set. You might be able to get away with Staff Tempest by relying on the High Target CCs from Unsteady Ground and Static, but then you're completely shifting your focus anyway from cleansing.

Auras in general. Also amazing projectile hate. Good boons too. And now way more condi cleanse and probably a good chunk more healing. 

2 minutes ago, YTKafka.4681 said:

 

Tempest is great, but it's not going to replace Scrapper... especially if they replace Quickness buff with an arguably equally valuable Fury buff. Hell at that rate we might be able to even get rid of Heralds... maybe we'll drop Heralds and take Tempest for Alacrity and to cover cleanses for the Triple support Meme.

Its definitely going to replace Scrapper. Condi cleanse is super important. You cant afford to lose out on that much condi cleanse. And what Scrapper does provide, which is super speed at the cost of low condi cleanse (since you have to run out) just isnt really worth it. And you are not going to drop Heralds, Coalescing Ruin is way too good. Youre gonna drop Scrapper.

[anduriell.6280]

No, Druid will never be able to replace medi scrapper or firebrand.

Best case scenario (if anet devs begin doing their job) can be an alternative to heal tempest and making the work/rotations of Firebrands and scrappers easier by mitigating some damage/bad effects from conditions. 

[Zaret.1450]

id say yes, to a certain point, what i mean is, ranger has certain new utilities and improved healing, in a sense that its easyer to heal and do things in wvw now, while scrapper will have a thoughter time using its giro utilities, at the very least i think druids, chronos with mantras, and similar things will find an easyer time getting in groups while prob more dps scrapers will appear that use dmg and stealth giros but not the cleanse one.

Id say we have more options now.

[Khenzy.9348]

21 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I think the meta will ever truly change till they give good stab support to more classes as well as good boon strip to more classes as well. They are giving druid some stab support but we are not sure how much and sadly they are removing boon strips from classes (the real issues of the update that seems lost on ppl).

 

 

Ah, yes. The good old "give every support stability uptime on par to firebrands" so these boon balls ramain 'uncceable' making boon strips mandatory, the realm of two specs at most, more widely accessible boons strips would feel like a back and forth which could father worsen balance. Instead of, you know, more healthy changes such as reducing CC immunity uptime as a whole (and other boons), making boons more of a strategic choice and giving CC skills diminishing returns. 

 

Let's further incentivize this horrendous boon spam stacking meta even father because it's oh so varied, fun and ultra engaging.

 

No wonder this game's balance has been getting gradually (and exponentially) worse for years.

EDIT: As to answer OP's question: No, Druids will remain a niche pick for as long as pets get insta killed in group fights without the druid being able to do anything to prevent it. Even if pets had 50k HP and 3k Armor, they would still amost instantly die because they can't dodge or properly reposition and they take full damage from AoEs. The CD penalty on swapping dead pets is extremely harsh and makes no sense in today's game balance. This will remain to be the case for as long as Anet keeps ignoring the issue.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Khenzy.9348

[Soilder.3607]

1 hour ago, Khenzy.9348 said:

 

EDIT: As to answer OP's question: No, Druids will remain a niche pick for as long as pets get insta killed in group fights without the druid being able to do anything to prevent it. Even if pets had 50k HP and 3k Armor, they would still amost instantly die because they can't dodge or properly reposition and they take full damage from AoEs. The CD penalty on swapping dead pets is extremely harsh and makes no sense in today's game balance. This will remain to be the case for as long as Anet keeps ignoring the issue.

The pet doesn't matter for support Druid in WvW. It doesn't do anything and nothing about support Druid needs the pet in order to work, whereas the same cannot be said for something like Untamed. The only downside to the pet is that it can reveal your squad when you guys stealth up if you cannot stow it.

 

They could remove the pet from Druid without giving it a replacement and it would not at all affect how much Druid can heal, cleanse, and give support.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Soilder.3607

[Za Shaloc.3908]

23 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Duration. A blast finisher in a smoke field gives 3 seconds of stealth to everyone. Drop a smoke field, do 2 quick blast finishers, and you can move on with 6 seconds of stealth after 1 second. For Sneak Gyro, after 1 second you will run out with at most 2 seconds of stealth. You see the issue now, yes? 

 

No I am still struggling to see the issue/your point because Sneak Gyro also provides a smoke field. If you are arguing in terms of cooldown comparison to other smoke fields, sure I can understand that. But at the same time, what class are you going to take that has access to a smoke field? Thief? Maybe in GvGs but I don't do those so I can't say, and I don't think that's what this thread is focused on. Specter? Still struggling to see it being relevant in zergs simply due to its design (and hey, they also have immobile wells that you have to also potentially sacrifice positioning for). Ranger Smokescale? Pets die really easily but I suppose you could just wait to swap to it until you need it (but then incur a large petswap CD for the next smoke field due to it dying). Mesmer (for Veil)? Heal Scrapper doesn't have a competing role with it and if you take Mass Invis you are sacrificing Grav Well. 

 

I'm not saying there's no truth behind what you are saying here because I agree with some of it, for what it's worth...I just think you are being overly dramatic and doomer-y with your points. I think at this point I'm just so fed up with people on this forum having the mindset of "my spec isn't the best so it's total trash". Am I happy Scrapper got nerfed? Yes I am, not going to lie on that one. Since they got their reworks that brought them into the meta, I've always considered them to be the superbatteries to zergs that enable really degenerate and toxic gameplay. Do I agree with how the nerfs were issued? Not particularly. I think it could have been partially solved by just numerical adjustments. I don't have a total issue with Scrapper having mobile wells because it fits with what they are trying to accomplish with the elite spec's identity, but I also think instant cast Gyros (Purge & Bulwark) should not exist and deserve a cast time. I think the Defense Field change that they did is 100% on point as that skill had *far* too much value and rotating them provided near perma projectile immunity to huddled zergs. I think Sneak Gyro in its current form is way too strong, but I think the biggest mistake they made was removing the visual indicator for it, and if I had it my way, I'd do that change instead (make the Gyro unkillable but increase the visual indicator so it'd be easier to see amongst a sea of VFX. Maybe bring down the duration by a second). That's just my two cents as a Scrapper non-enthusiast, though.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Za Shaloc.3908

[UNOwen.7132]

1 hour ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

No I am still struggling to see the issue/your point because Sneak Gyro also provides a smoke field. If you are arguing in terms of cooldown comparison to other smoke fields, sure I can understand that. But at the same time, what class are you going to take that has access to a smoke field? Thief? Maybe in GvGs but I don't do those so I can't say, and I don't think that's what this thread is focused on. Specter? Still struggling to see it being relevant in zergs simply due to its design (and hey, they also have immobile wells that you have to also potentially sacrifice positioning for). Ranger Smokescale? Pets die really easily but I suppose you could just wait to swap to it until you need it (but then incur a large petswap CD for the next smoke field due to it dying). Mesmer (for Veil)? Heal Scrapper doesn't have a competing role with it and if you take Mass Invis you are sacrificing Grav Well. 

Realistically youll just use veil for your stealth needs, and bring a druid if you want more. I think Scrapper is falling too far behind to really be worth using just for the stealth gyro and the superspeed you might get sometimes.

 

1 hour ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

I'm not saying there's no truth behind what you are saying here because I agree with some of it, for what it's worth...I just think you are being overly dramatic and doomer-y with your points. I think at this point I'm just so fed up with people on this forum having the mindset of "my spec isn't the best so it's total trash". Am I happy Scrapper got nerfed? Yes I am, not going to lie on that one. Since they got their reworks that brought them into the meta, I've always considered them to be the superbatteries to zergs that enable really degenerate and toxic gameplay. Do I agree with how the nerfs were issued? Not particularly. I think it could have been partially solved by just numerical adjustments. I don't have a total issue with Scrapper having mobile wells because it fits with what they are trying to accomplish with the elite spec's identity, but I also think instant cast Gyros (Purge & Bulwark) should not exist and deserve a cast time. I think the Defense Field change that they did is 100% on point as that skill had *far* too much value and rotating them provided near perma projectile immunity to huddled zergs. I think Sneak Gyro in its current form is way too strong, but I think the biggest mistake they made was removing the visual indicator for it, and if I had it my way, I'd do that change instead (make the Gyro unkillable but increase the visual indicator so it'd be easier to see amongst a sea of VFX. Maybe bring down the duration by a second). That's just my two cents as a Scrapper non-enthusiast, though.

I think almost all of it could've been solved with numerical issue and just ... reworking sneak gyro? They have changed how a utility or even an elite works alltogether before. And I imagine every scrapper would have them rather change sneak gyro exactly rather than the whole utility skill category. Especially since its only really used in WvW and in some PvE content to skip. The poor sods still playing Scrapper in PvP already arent using it, using the elite instead, and they sure as hell dont need to have their key utility category broken entirely. 

 

I think Purge Gyro being instant cast is fine, theres plenty of other instant cast, or nearly instant cast, condi cleanses around. It just needs to last less long. Remove 1 or 2 pulses from it. Defense Field nerf makes sense, though I wish theyd also apply it to Guardians Shield of Absorbtion. Its rather silly to nerf one version of that but keep the other.