Story direction is a little...political/ideological (spoilers) - returning player

[Mykhel.6532]

41 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

If you look at the placement of the orbs in The All diagram and compare it to the vision, the dark green orb is Zhaitan when compared to this diagram.

The All was a depiction by the Durmand Priory. they flipped the images. It was clearly a mistake. I would trust literally seeing it in a vision than to someone's drawing. In addition, Mordremoth is and has always been represented by dark green. Necromancy, or death magic, has always been represented by the pale yellow, which is the color of nearly all necromancer moves. Not to mention, once the green orb hits the center, the vision is engulfed in vines. why would Zhaitan's power do that? Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense.

[Eponet.4829]

12 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

It can mean that I guess if the issue is presentation, but I don't believe that better coded messaging in a story is inherently better writing. More effective as propaganda maybe (in the sense of persuasion, not as an inherently dirty word) but that leads to a fascinating question to me because in this situation and others, I get this impression some people are not so much offended by propaganda as they are offended by noticing propaganda. So the question becomes like, do they want to be persuaded/influenced (whatever you want to call it) to change their beliefs, just without realizing it? It's kind of strange when I think about it that way and I don't quite understand what people want (if they even know themselves).

 

I'm pretty sure the main issue is that when the writing comes across as preachy, the world loses its verisimilitude and ceases to be an immersive experience.

It's why the biggest issues all come from dialogue rather than actual events, where in EoD in particular, it feels like a sizable proportion of the cast all had the same person occasionally add in his/her own commentary after each point.

[Mykhel.6532]

1 hour ago, Eponet.4829 said:

I'm pretty sure the main issue is that when the writing comes across as preachy, the world loses its verisimilitude and ceases to be an immersive experience.

Yes. Coded or not, when it can be directly compared to current events, it's immersion breaking and preachy. I care about your story, not your politics.

 

Also, I love you for introducing me to the word verisimilitude. *Chef's kiss* What a beautiful word.

[Tyson.5160]

9 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

No. This is wrong. Zhaitans orb does NOT enter the center in that vision. It is Mordremoths.

 

Top Left: Soo-Won (Water)

Top Right: Kralkatorrik (Lightning)

Left Center: Mordremoth (Life)

Right Center: Zhaitan (Death)

Bottom Left: Primordus (Fire)

Bottom Right: Jormag (Ice)

 

They are literally on the opposing sides to their opposite element. Mordremoths goes around the fixture and then comes center screen before jumping into the middle. Watch it. This is the original video from 2014.

 

You have the two dragons backwards…

 

Look at the diagram of The All as shown in the Durmond Priory.

 

It shows Soo-Won top left, Zhaitan middle left, Primordus bottom left. Kralkatorrik top right, Mordremoth middle right and Jormag bottom right.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All#/media/File%3AThe_All_(texture).png
 

Also in the video watch when each dragon orb lights up. It lights up to the dragon awakening order. Mordremoth’s orb is the last to light up, which matches in game. By what you described that would mean Zhaitan was the last to awaken which is not true.

[Mykhel.6532]

Just now, Tyson.5160 said:

You have the two dragons backwards…

 

Look at the diagram of The All as shown in the Durmond Priory.

 

It shows Soo-Won top left, Zhaitan middle left, Primordus bottom left. Kralkatorrik top right, Mordremoth middle right and Jormag bottom right.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All#/media/File%3AThe_All_(texture).png
 

Also in the video watch when each dragon orb lights up. It lights up to the dragon awakening order. Mordremoth’s orb is the last to light up, which matches in game. By what you described that would mean Zhaitan was the last to awaken which is not true.

Dude, I literally answered that. The priory depiction is incorrect. Period. I'm going off of the vision of actually SEEING it.

Also, please show me where Primordus awakens first?

[Zebulous.2934]

Hrm I could have done with some more dragon lore. I assume that Jormag became more than just a mindless force over eons of existence. Though it makes me wonder why Primordus did not. 

I have an excuse for Zitan:

Since Zitan gained access to the memories of the dead that it converted, it makes sense for it to try to aquire more corpses from intelligent races. 

I am not sure why Mordramoth found value in crafting sapient plants, or why Jormag started corrupting sapient creatures rather than simply corrupting powerful unintelligent creatures. Why didn't Primordus grow mentally, and why did it continue to use the low intelligence destroyers?

 

I have no trouble in believing that Bubbles created the other dragons, and in a grand sense, considered them doomed because they were mortal.  The dragons are capable of dying and so they must eventually die, and that which kills them will cause them to suffer.  

 

 

[Labjax.2465]

6 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

While yes, this can also be compared to several structures of order throughout history. Senseless violence has never ceased. Class stratification has also existed throughout history. These are general concepts, of which GW2 does well.

 

No. This is wrong. General concepts are those seen throughout all of history. When thinking of what I'm describing, ask yourself is this unique to modern day? Or can I point to this happening before because it's a concept that has happened throughout all of history.

Well gay people have existed throughout history, so from that standpoint, your example about Kas and Jory doesn't fit either...

[Tyson.5160]

3 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Dude, I literally answered that. The priory depiction is incorrect. Period. I'm going off of the vision of actually SEEING it.

Also, please show me where Primordus awakens first?

Unfortunately you’re interpretation is incorrect . The Durmond Priory diagram is quite accurate however you appear to be ignoring the order of the orbs lighting up, which contradicts your analysis, as well.

Also there is several examples of Primordus waking first, however here is one of them and it also shows the order of the other Elder Dragons minus Soo-Won and Mordremoth.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Elder_Dragons

 

Order of awakening, Primordus, Soo-Won, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth. This order is perfectly mirrored in the vision that you are SEEING, which correlates perfectly with the Durmond Priory diagram as well, unless the vision is wrong now too…

[Mykhel.6532]

16 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Unfortunately you’re interpretation is incorrect . The Durmond Priory diagram is quite accurate however you appear to be ignoring the order of the orbs lighting up, which contradicts your analysis, as well.

Also there is several examples of Primordus waking first, however here is one of them and it also shows the order of the other Elder Dragons minus Soo-Won and Mordremoth.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Elder_Dragons

 

Order of awakening, Primordus, Soo-Won, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth. This order is perfectly mirrored in the vision that you are SEEING, which correlates perfectly with the Durmond Priory diagram as well, unless the vision is wrong now too…

It's not an interpretation. The stuff you linked doesn't even match... The order in the vision goes Primordus, Soo-Won, Jormag, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik and then Zhaitan. I'm sorry, but if your only evidence is a depiction from the Durmand Priory, then you'll never convince me of what you're saying. On top of that, you try to tell me that Zhaitan is dark green and mordremoth is pale yellow when the colors in the very game itself match the element they represent... You don't have an argument.

 

I could easily say: The reason Zhaitan's orb was the last to awaken is because it was his turn in the cycle. Since we stopped it and inadvertently fed Mordremoth the energy, he consumes the cycle.

Edit: AND Soo-Won was 2nd in the vision, but she clearly states in EoD that she woke up right after Zhaitan did. Sorry, but you're making this up. Gonna need way more evidence than "The Durmond Priory picture says so..." when you, as the player SAW the ALL yourself.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Mykhel.6532
Thought of something else to support

[Mykhel.6532]

12 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Well gay people have existed throughout history, so from that standpoint, your example about Kas and Jory doesn't fit either...

It does when there's literally no other relationship in the story you play.

[Tyson.5160]

4 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

It's not an interpretation. The stuff you linked doesn't even match... The order in the vision goes Primordus, Soo-Won, Jormag, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik and then Zhaitan. I'm sorry, but if your only evidence is a depiction from the Durmand Priory, then you'll never convince me of what you're saying. On top of that, you try to tell me that Zhaitan is dark green and mordremoth is pale yellow when the colors in the very game itself match the element they represent... You don't have an argument.

 

I could easily say: The reason Zhaitan's orb was the last to awaken is because it was his turn in the cycle. Since we stopped it and inadvertently fed Mordremoth the energy, he consumes the cycle.

It matches perfectly when you compare it to the diagram of the Durmond Priory to the order of the awakening…

 

The vision itself is showing that Zhaitan’s magic is in Tyria, which at the time of the vision is correct and not Mordremoth being stronger then the other dragons…

 

Zhaitan waking up last makes absolutely no sense since Mordremoth woke last.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

It does when there's literally no other relationship in the story you play.

I don't get what you mean. The thought thread I'm following here is, if it's not injecting modern politics because "general concepts" then Kas and Jory being in a gay relationship is not injecting modern politics because that's a general concept.

[Mykhel.6532]

 

1 minute ago, Tyson.5160 said:

It matches perfectly when you compare it to the diagram of the Durmond Priory to the order of the awakening…

No it doesn't Soo -Won LITERALLY states she woke up after Zhaitan. You are wrong.

 

2 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

The vision itself is showing that Zhaitan’s magic is in Tyria, which at the time of the vision is correct and not Mordremoth being stronger then the other dragons…

At the time of the vision, Zhaitan is dead. His magic already was taken in by Mordremoth. It tipped the scales and is why Mordremoths orb entered the center and then consumed The All in vines. Even conceptually, if Zhaitan's magic entered the center... it would be up for grabs for ANY dragon to take. The vision was leading to Heart of Thorns, where Mordremoth was the main villain. What you're saying makes zero sense. Please provide proof other than your interpretation of a picture or stop replying. You are not going to convince me otherwise unless you provide more evidence. Good day.

[Mykhel.6532]

2 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I don't get what you mean. The thought thread I'm following here is, if it's not injecting modern politics because "general concepts" then Kas and Jory being in a gay relationship is not injecting modern politics because that's a general concept.

Gay marriage is not a "general concept." It has never existed outside of this block of history. Ever. And it just so happens in 2014-2015 when HoT was being developed and LWS2 was coming out; at the same time there is 12+ court battles in the US alone to solidify gay marriage...  you get the only relationship ever stated and followed in all of GW2... and it happens to be 2 women.  That is not GENERAL. That is extremely specific.

[Tyson.5160]

17 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

 

No it doesn't Soo -Won LITERALLY states she woke up after Zhaitan. You are wrong.

 

Oh? Where was that stated? Provide Evidence.

Also play City of Hope again, you fight the dragon minions in order of the dragons’s awakening, which oh my is the same as in the machine cinematic…

Edited October 9, 2022 by Tyson.5160
Added other information

[Tyson.5160]

11 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

At the time of the vision, Zhaitan is dead. His magic already was taken in by Mordremoth. It tipped the scales and is why Mordremoths orb entered the center and then consumed The All in vines. Even conceptually, if Zhaitan's magic entered the center... it would be up for grabs for ANY dragon to take. The vision was leading to Heart of Thorns, where Mordremoth was the main villain. What you're saying makes zero sense. Please provide proof other than your interpretation of a picture or stop replying. You are not going to convince me otherwise unless you provide more evidence. Good day.

Um…. the other dragons got Zhaitan’s magic as well. It was up for grabs… every other dragon got magic from Zhaitan when it died. The vision was showing that with Zhaitan magic entering the centre orb, that the beginning of the collapse was Tyria’s magical balance was starting…

[Labjax.2465]

7 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Gay marriage is not a "general concept." It has never existed outside of this block of history. Ever.

Pretty sure it has tho, at least in the sense of unions... unless you are hedging on a very specific manifestation of the concept of marriage, but unless I'm remembering what it was prior compared to now or something, pretty sure even now, modern gay marriage is seen as more of a legal union and is still a point of contention with people who see marriage as a separate and distinct religious union between two hetero people. I'm also pretty sure Kas and Jory's relationship has never outright acknowledged that divide (and why would they?). They might have used the word marriage at some point, but that's about it that I can recall.

[Mykhel.6532]

12 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Oh? Where was that stated? Provide Evidence

You first.

 

9 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Um…. the other dragons got Zhaitan’s magic as well. It was up for grabs…

Mordremoth got the vast majority of it due to proximity. This is literally stated in the story.

[Mykhel.6532]

3 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Pretty sure it has tho, at least in the sense of unions... unless you are hedging on a very specific manifestation of the concept of marriage, but unless I'm remembering what it was prior compared to now or something, pretty sure even now, modern gay marriage is seen as more of a legal union and is still a point of contention with people who see marriage as a separate and distinct religious union between two hetero people. I'm also pretty sure Kas and Jory's relationship has never outright acknowledged that divide (and why would they?). They might have used the word marriage at some point, but that's about it that I can recall.

And? I don't care about how it's seen. My point is they changed the story to insert this ideological feature into the game. Marjory was supposed to die at the end of the Scarlet Saga, the gay marriage stuff was going on, they rewrote her to stay alive and become Kasmeer's partner.

[Tyson.5160]

4 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

You first.

 

Mordremoth got the vast majority of it due to proximity. This is literally stated in the story.

You made the claim that Soo-Won woke up after Zhaitan. Back it up with the evidence.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

And? I don't care about how it's seen. My point is they changed the story to insert this ideological feature into the game. Marjory was supposed to die at the end of the Scarlet Saga, the gay marriage stuff was going on, they rewrote her to stay alive and become Kasmeer's partner.

You told me it doesn't exist outside this block of history, I just explained how at the very least it's a lot more complicated than that. So unless you have a reasonable explanation for that, I think it's clear at this point your argument doesn't make sense. I don't see much more to investigate here unless you have a revelatory addition you have been withholding.

[Mykhel.6532]

7 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

You told me it doesn't exist outside this block of history, I just explained how at the very least it's a lot more complicated than that. So unless you have a reasonable explanation for that, I think it's clear at this point your argument doesn't make sense.

It doesn't. Gay marriage has never existed prior to the decisions in the early 2000s. then in 2014, these rest of the states fighting that decision conceded defeat. Period. No other culture has ever accepted it. I don't care about unions or whatever they called it before. This was unique to our era of time, meaning it did not fit the definition of a "general concept." 

I am saying they inserted their ideology based on these points:

1. It was heavily in the news during 2014-2015.

2. There were no relationships in the players story--at all-- prior to Marjory and Kasmeer; hetero or otherwise.

3. Marjory's character was originally written to die. This was altered. It's not a coincidence.

 

If you don't understand what I'm trying to say at this point, then we're not going to see eye to eye. Good day.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mykhel.6532
Clarification.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

It doesn't. Gay marriage has never existed prior to the decisions in the early 2000s. Period. No other culture has ever accepted it. I don't care about unions or whatever they called it before. This was unique to our era of time, meaning it did not fit the definition of a "general concept." 

I am saying they inserted their ideology based on these points:

1. It was heavily in the news during 2014-2015.

2. There were no relationships in the players story--at all-- prior to Marjory and Kasmeer; hetero or otherwise.

3. Marjory's character was originally written to die. This was altered. It's not a coincidence.

 

If you don't understand what I'm trying to say at this point, then we're not going to see eye to eye. Good day.

It doesn't matter if you care about unions, they are the concept underlying what we're talking about here and they are not new. This all comes back to you saying that the human personal story politics are not the same because class stratification has happened throughout history, not just in the US. But you have not given the context of that story the same level of questioning that you have given to the context of a gay legal union. It is inconsistent and the points you are focusing on now are not what you were focusing on before in our conversation. And perhaps more importantly, I could come up with similar points for why the human personal story was based on modern US society.

[Mykhel.6532]

5 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

This all comes back to you saying that the human personal story politics are not the same because class stratification has happened throughout history, not just in the US.

Omfg. Was class stratification in the news every day in 2014? Has it ever been focused on in the news for extended periods of time during Guild wars 2 development and story progress? Can you tie court cases back to the exact times it was being talked about in game?

[Tyson.5160]

30 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

 

Mordremoth got the vast majority of it due to proximity. This is literally stated in the story.

We don’t know the exact amounts, yes Mordremoth got Zhaitan’s magic but so did Kralkatorrik, so did Jormag, Primordus, they all got Zhaitan’s magic. It also to went to Soo-Won, but was taken out via Jade tech.