Story direction is a little...political/ideological (spoilers) - returning player

[Farohna.6247]

13 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

That's quite convenient it no longer exists. A wiki is not proof of anything as nearly everyone can edit those pages.

 

This is untrue as we can refer to our beloved animals as it until we know if they're male or female. The problem with this is it was not established lore, it's not in any of the story dialogue and no one can prove otherwise. So, unfortunately to me, it seems they inserted this piece based on a political/ideological nature.

 

We don't have this problem in English. Male and female words are very often defined.

You do know that English is quite gender neutral compared to many other languages yes?  We don't specify the gender of a table, map, globe, or other inanimate object.  

[Mykhel.6532]

Just now, Farohna.6247 said:

You do know that English is quite gender neutral compared to many other languages yes?  We don't specify the gender of a table, map, globe, or other inanimate object.  

Yes. That's exactly what I meant. They are clearly defined as in "Maternal" and "Paternal" for an example.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Is this a joke? There's nothing to ignore? A site and doesn't exist and a Wiki who can be updated by anyone...

Why the hell would I have respect for a giant dragon who kills people needlessly? I don't give a crap if I offend them in every word. Not to mention, Jormag's primary influence is deception... or did you forget that?

What...? No. Jormag could have said a bunch of different things. You're really thinking inside the box. Here's the easiest thing Jormag could have yelled: "Primordus!" His name. Didn't even need to mention relation. Finally, Jormag could have easily just referred to him as "family." 

This is ignoring it by claiming anything that goes against you is just made up.

Doesn't matter if you respect them or not, we're talking about why Jormag refers to Primordus as brother. did you forget what started this in the first place?

Jormag just yelling Primordus doesn't convey the bond they have with each other, which was the direct cause of Jormag's action. You can yell anyone's name like that with no previous connection. Likewise, yelling "FAMILY!" in the middle of the fight just makes it sound like your in a Fast and Furious movie, and Vin Disel is talking about what hes fighting for. Yelling "Family" like that doesn't work properly in English.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Mykhel.6532]

4 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Doesn't matter if you respect them or not, we're talking about why Jormag refers to Primordus as brother. did you forget what started this in the first place?

 Jormag uses GENDERED language! You literally just said the Elder Dragons were gender neutral.

 

4 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jormag just yelling Primordus doesn't convey the bond they have with each other, which was the direct cause of Jormag's action.

Says who? Jormag wants to kill him! You think it would make a difference calling him brother versus his name? He literally never speaks.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Mykhel.6532
Clarification

[Mykhel.6532]

6 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This is ignoring it by claiming anything that goes against you is just made up.

Doesn't matter if you respect them or not, we're talking about why Jormag refers to Primordus as brother. did you forget what started this in the first place?

Jormag just yelling Primordus doesn't convey the bond they have with each other, which was the direct cause of Jormag's action. You can yell anyone's name like that with no previous connection. Likewise, yelling "FAMILY!" in the middle of the fight just makes it sound like your in a Fast and Furious movie, and Vin Disel is talking about what hes fighting for. Yelling "Family" like that doesn't work properly in English.

No, it isn't. I'm saying I've already looked at the Wiki. I asked you for proof of your original statement to me, which you have not provided anything. A video, a book, an in-game dialogue, etc.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

 Jormag uses GENDERED language! You literally just said the Elder Dragons were gender neutral.

 

Says who? Jormag wants to kill him! You think it would make a difference calling him brother versus his name? He literally never speaks.

And this whole conversation was about why Jormag would use gendered language despite that.... at this point you're not even following the very conversation you're in.

[Mykhel.6532]

1 minute ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And this whole conversation was about why Jormag would use gendered language despite that.... at this point you're not even following the very conversation you're in.

...you have no clue what you're talking about. You said all Elder Dragons are gender neutral. Jormag refers to Primrodus as "brother" using a male gendered term, which indicates an elder Dragon has a gender. You say that she's using it to describe the bond between them. Why didn't Jormag say sister? Why didn't Jormag say just his name? Why didn't Jormag call him an expletive? Why didn't Jormag speak to him in an Ancient Dragon language?

The reality is what you're saying doesn't make a lick of sense. You are trying to defend them introducing politics and ideology into the story and then trying to say I'm the one not making sense. It's unreal.

[Firebeard.1746]

Honestly, I never correlated the Charr with current political situations. I'm guessing the reason you feel so triggered is because you're part of that situation and maybe, just maybe, the art here is strong enough to make you realize that the things that happened in real life are so ridiculous it emulates the Charr storyline. 

 

Just look at a strongman in a different country (Russia) and think about how many dead people from the rising generation he's caused in the context of a population decline (putin is basically destroying his own people for his own glory). Strongmen and dictators often get into power making promises to the common man that are appealing (and sometimes even work when they do them), but at the end of the day, you can tell they only care about themselves and it's more dangerous to have them in power than a democratic government with some issues, because at least then, you have hope of change without all the death. I'm glad a 3rd party candidate is shaking things up in Utah and ranked choice voting is happening. Those will be what save us, not narcissists who fulfill a few promises but in the end are only in it for them.

The dude had lists of our foreign agents in an unsecured location. If that's not bad for national security and our safety, I don't know what is. There's also been tlak of nuclear secrets as well. And missing documents. He probably sold them. You need to wake up.

I don't think the parallel was as strong in game as you think it was. Bangar is not Trump nor did I ever equate him as such (in fact, I think he was way smarter, if you're asking me to compare). It struck a nerve because you know you're on the wrong side. And my response is "sorry, not sorry, you should probably learn from this"

Edited September 22, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Farohna.6247]

Love when these posts go from "help me understand or is it just me" to completely derailing, pulling off the layers, and we get to see what it's really about.  Always interesting.  

[Zebulous.2934]

When people forget the word sibling.

 

Sibling, you have inconvenienced me for the last time.

 

One would assume, if the dragons are physically speaking, that it is a spectacle for minions.

Since Jormag seems to be telepathic, Jormag could simply think it at Primordus. If it were a more general mental broadcast, I suppose the minds in range are interpreting the dragon thoughts as their own familiar language.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Zebulous.2934
Comma

[Freya.9075]

7 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I don't think the parallel was as strong in game as you think it was. Bangar is not Trump nor did I ever equate him as such

I mean.. he is looking a bit orange in the right lighting 👀 

[Mykhel.6532]

14 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Honestly, I never correlated the Charr with current political situations. I'm guessing the reason you feel so triggered is because you're part of that situation and maybe, just maybe, the art here is strong enough to make you realize that the things that happened in real life are so ridiculous it emulates the Charr storyline. 

I never did and still don't. Your comments here are a huge reach as I didn't refer to the entire race of Charr except when directly referring to specific characters and their influence on the Charr as a whole.

 

16 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Just look at a strongman in a different country (Russia) and think about how many dead people from the rising generation he's caused in the context of a population decline (putin is basically destroying his own people for his own glory). Strongmen and dictators often get into power making promises to the common man that are appealing (and sometimes even work when they do them), but at the end of the day, you can tell they only care about themselves and it's more dangerous to have them in power than a democratic government with some issues, because at least then, you have hope of change without all the death. I'm glad a 3rd party candidate is shaking things up in Utah and ranked choice voting is happening. Those will be what save us, not narcissists who fulfill a few promises but in the end are only in it for them.

This has absolutely nothing to do with GW2.

 

16 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The dude had lists of our foreign agents in an unsecured location. If that's not bad for national security and our safety, I don't know what is. There's also been tlak of nuclear secrets as well. And missing documents. He probably sold them. You need to wake up.

This has nothing to do with GW2.

 

17 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I don't think the parallel was as strong in game as you think it was. Bangar is not Trump nor did I ever equate him as such (in fact, I think he was way smarter, if you're asking me to compare). It struck a nerve because you know you're on the wrong side. And my response is "sorry, not sorry, you should probably learn from this"

I never once made a parallel to Bangar representing anyone. Wrong side? What the hell are you talking about?

[Mykhel.6532]

13 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Love when these posts go from "help me understand or is it just me" to completely derailing, pulling off the layers, and we get to see what it's really about.  Always interesting.  

I never asked anyone to "help me understand or is it just me." I observed the story, thought is was one way, and asked the community if they noticed it too.

I love it when someone comments, completely misses the point, and then demonstrates to everyone that they didn't even read the OP. 

[Firebeard.1746]

4 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I never did and still don't. Your comments here are a huge reach as I didn't refer to the entire race of Charr except when directly referring to specific characters and their influence on the Charr as a whole.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with GW2.

 

This has nothing to do with GW2.

 

I never once made a parallel to Bangar representing anyone. Wrong side? What the hell are you talking about?

Which current political situation are you referring to if you're not referring to that one? I'm just not quite catching where you're coming from.

 

Also Ryland rising above Bangar is also nothing like the current way things happen. Doubt he'd wear a shirt saying "You can grab my ------", he was far more independent than the people in the current situation in the US. 

[Farohna.6247]

1 minute ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I never asked anyone to "help me understand or is it just me." I observed the story, thought is was one way, and asked the community if they noticed it too.

I love it when someone comments, completely misses the point, and then demonstrates to everyone that they didn't even read the OP. 

You asked if anyone else had this vibe.  It's the equivalent of is it just me.  People went on to explain their points of view.  You didn't care for them.  Sooooooo?

[spartan.9421]

Mykhel, you misunderstood so many story beats and are lashing out.

You've misunderstood a lot, actually. I never threatened to silence you, I am sorry you feel as though you were attacked in such a way. But, like, you are quite rapidly dragging this thread through the mud, and it is going off topic. Both of which WILL get the thread locked. That is one of the forums rules.

 

I also didn't explicitly say *you* were expressing hate, why do you feel as though I was? I was addressing the entire thread with that comment. I didn't even mention you until my next paragraph.

 

Moreover, if you do not like what you perceive as the politics/ideologies of the story... Just, don't play it? It is a free game at base, and no one is forcing you to play through the story.
Constructive criticism is fine, but this threat is anything but constructive or criticism.

 

Moreover, you are breaking forum rules, you do realize this, yes?

I offered my sincere help, as it is quite evident you are misrepresenting several facets of the story and projecting your own perceived biases into the story, thus not properly understanding it. You even made the wrong claim that Jormag is some sort of seductress in a earlier comment.

Edited September 22, 2022 by spartan.9421
Clarifcation.

[Xerac.1542]

2 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

You didn't miss it because it's never mentioned. In fact, Sons of Svanir mention Jormag as a he in certain text dialogue.

Alright fair, I seriously can't deny that because I don't know.

Since this turned into some linguist debate... I also refer to soooo many thing a he or she because in my language it is sometimes different to English and even if it is not I might make a mistake. 

All I can say is:

 

Even if they put it in as an afterthought to care about the gender debate I think it is implemented fairly well, since Jormag is deceiving and by being neutral or undefined himsheherit can affect everyone?! 

I don't know and don't care. I would love to see better written characters but then again, it's a game and I want to push buttons and not watch endless scenes of people talking. 

 

Have a good one and I hope you can still enjoy your game time! 

 

[Mykhel.6532]

2 minutes ago, spartan.9421 said:

But, like, you are quite rapidly dragging this thread through the mud, and it is going off topic.

Please tell me how I am going off topic?

 

53 minutes ago, spartan.9421 said:

If not for the blatant hate, than the constant circling around the topic.

So where was the hate then? Be specific.

 

4 minutes ago, spartan.9421 said:

Just, don't play it? It is a free game at base, and no one is forcing you to play through the story

I've been playing this game since the beta. The lore was amazing until the IBS. Then it has degraded. A lot. If I Was a new player, I'd have stopped playing already.

 

5 minutes ago, spartan.9421 said:

Moreover, you are breaking forum rules, you do realize this, yes?

How? Which rule specifically?

 

6 minutes ago, spartan.9421 said:

You even made the wrong claim that Jormag is some sort of temptress in a earlier comment.

It's very clear with this comment that you didn't read anything I've said. I never once said Jormag was a temptress. Please go back and read what I wrote. Feel free to quote it.

[Xerac.1542]

2 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

You didn't miss it because it's never mentioned. In fact, Sons of Svanir mention Jormag as a he in certain text dialogue.

Alright fair, I seriously can't deny that because I don't know.

Since this turned into some linguist debate... I also refer to soooo many thing a he or she because in my language it is sometimes different to English and even if it is not I might make a mistake. 

All I can say is:

 

Even if they put it in as an afterthought to care about the gender debate I think it is implemented fairly well, since Jormag is deceiving and by being neutral or undefined himsheherit can affect everyone?! 

I don't know and don't care. I would love to see better written characters but then again, it's a game and I want to push buttons and not watch endless scenes of people talking. 

 

Have a good one and I hope you can still enjoy your game time! 

[Mykhel.6532]

4 minutes ago, Xerac.1542 said:

Alright fair, I seriously can't deny that because I don't know.

Since this turned into some linguist debate... I also refer to soooo many thing a he or she because in my language it is sometimes different to English and even if it is not I might make a mistake. 

All I can say is:

 

Even if they put it in as an afterthought to care about the gender debate I think it is implemented fairly well, since Jormag is deceiving and by being neutral or undefined himsheherit can affect everyone?! 

I don't know and don't care. I would love to see better written characters but then again, it's a game and I want to push buttons and not watch endless scenes of people talking. 

 

Have a good one and I hope you can still enjoy your game time! 

That's respectable. I'm clearly still playing the game. I just want them to stick to Tyria the best they can. That's all. You too!

[Zola.6197]

All stories reflect the values and culture of the time. If you’re seeing different kinds of characters, stories, analogies, or allegories than what you saw 10, 20, 30 years ago, it’s because we’re living in a different time.

 

If women were less prominent in older stories, if there are more LGBT+ characters in games than in decades past, or whatever other “modern” political ideologies you feel are appearing in media now, it’s because the perception of those things has changed in the real world since then. Stories often reflect the mainstream values of the times, and that’s as true for GW2 as any other story that’s ever been told across all forms of media.

 

Whether or not you like it is your choice, but it won’t change the natural shifting of culture the world is constantly going through.

[Mykhel.6532]

1 minute ago, Zola.6197 said:

All stories reflect the values and culture of the time. If you’re seeing different kinds of characters, stories, analogies, or allegories than what you saw 10, 20, 30 years ago, it’s because we’re living in a different time

No they don't. GW2 released in 2012. How did 5 races coming together to destroy an Undead dragon, who rose an entire island out of the sea, to destroy the world reflect on the current culture?

 

3 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

If women were less prominent in older stories, if there are more LGBT+ characters in games than in decades past, or whatever other “modern” political ideologies you feel are appearing in media now, it’s because the perception of those things has changed in the real world since then. Stories often reflect the mainstream values of the times, and that’s as true for GW2 as any other story that’s ever been told across all forms of media.

Women have never been less prominent in any stories I've read. Whether a person is LGB+ in a story is completely irrelevant if it's not directly involved in the story. When I'm following a character, I'm not thinking "I wonder who they are attracted to?"

 

6 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

Whether or not you like it is your choice, but it won’t change the natural shifting of culture the world is constantly going through.

It's not natural when it's injected in opposition of the storyline. It ruins the story because it often doesn't have anything to do with modern times.

[spartan.9421]

6 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Because Jormag's allure is like that of a seductive woman. The proverbial Jezebel. That was how I always viewed this dragon. My interpretation is that of men don't want any Icebrood women because there is only one woman in their hearts: Jormag. Anything else is a cheap imitation that needs to be destroyed.

I even made it bold, to make it more clear.

This, by the way, is so far from the actual lore reason. Not a single Svanir man is a part of the Svanir cult because they only have love in their hearts for Jormag. Where... How did you you even come up with this? Like, everything points to what is actually going on and you have chosen to deliberately ignore it for 10 years and claim it to be this?

 

Jormag offers the Sons of Svanir power, they want that power.

The lack of women is because the cult of Svanir view women as too weak. They even view most men as too weak.

Norn women are also disallowed from joining the Sons of Svanir because of Jora's crimes. Jora's crime, by the way, is that she killed her brother, Svanir. This is heard through some ambient dialogue during Dragon's Bash.

 

There is no Jezebel here. It is a dragon that wants minions and a cult that wants power. That's all it has ever been for the Sons of Svanir. Jormag whispers to them, claiming to be able to grant them power, the Sons accept that power. This, mind you, is also a lie. As Jormag does not really give them much power, and instead takes power from them.

[Mykhel.6532]

7 minutes ago, spartan.9421 said:

I even made it bold, to make it more clear.

...Now please read it out loud. "Jormag's ALLURE is LIKE that of a seductive woman." I bolded and underlined it for you, just in case. I wasn't even referring directly to Jormag. I was referring to Jormag's allure in this comment. I did not say Jormag was a temptress as in a woman who tempts men to bed or something at any time. It's called a simile. Wow. Just wow.

 

10 minutes ago, spartan.9421 said:

Not a single Svanir man is a part of the Svanir cult because they only have love in their hearts for Jormag.

Same point here.

 

11 minutes ago, spartan.9421 said:

Norn women are also disallowed from joining the Sons of Svanir because of Jora's crimes. Jora's crime, by the way, is that she killed her brother, Svanir.

Cool. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

12 minutes ago, spartan.9421 said:

There is no Jezebel here. It is a dragon that wants minions and a cult that wants power. That's all it has ever been for the Sons of Svanir. Jormag whispers to them, claiming to be able to grant them power, the Sons accept that power.

Never said there was a Jezebel. Again, see above. Whispers are often used as a seduction, which is why I made the comparison.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Not sure I agree with Bangar's actions and goals being "unbelievable" in IBS, given that Inquest have done it. More that Braham being praised for doing the same kitten thing we condemned Bangar for attempting is what bothers me there.

That said, yes, GW2 has gotten more political leftist progressiveness messaging in their works since Tom Abernathy had become Lead Narrative Designer, and increasingly so as time went. Good or bad, it's very noticeable and increasingly so - especially when you heard Tom Abernathy's interviews during IBS development time where he basically says, to shorthand it, "this is my political messaging in the story". It isn't just people seeing things, Tom Abernathy confirmed it himself (iirc, it was within this interview with deeg where, again iirc, he also brought up some other somewhat controversial views, some I personally disagree with such as his opinion on the weight of narrative/lore versus character in stories).

However, Tom Abernathy is no longer working at ArenaNet - he left when EoD roughly entered post-production, along with several writers that were hired while he worked as Lead Narrative Designer, and they left for Bungie.

 

Personally speaking, I don't care what political views the writers hold. But intentionally writing political messaging into story only serves to hinder it - as many movies and shows are currently suffering from for the past few years. When you start putting messaging into your stories, you're no longer going for entertainment, you're preaching and educating, and people aren't showing up to be preached at or educated but to be entertained, so you're no longer doing the job you're being paid to do. You can make entertaining stories while messaging political and philosophical views, sure, and it can be hard to completely separate the two, but entertainment should always come first as a story writer.

Just my two cents.

 

 

This said, these types of threads often get locked within a few days or weeks at most. So enjoy while it lasts.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086