Story direction is a little...political/ideological (spoilers) - returning player

[burstaxe.1832]

On 10/8/2022 at 8:21 PM, Mykhel.6532 said:

It doesn't. Gay marriage has never existed prior to the decisions in the early 2000s. then in 2014, these rest of the states fighting that decision conceded defeat. Period. No other culture has ever accepted it. I don't care about unions or whatever they called it before. This was unique to our era of time, meaning it did not fit the definition of a "general concept."

People have been campaigning for equal marriage rights since at least the 1970s in the United States alone. Pedro Díaz and Muño Vandilaz were married in Spain by a priest in 1061. Ann Lister and Ann Walker were married in York in 1843. Same sex marriage was outlawed in Rome in 342 AD by Constantius II imposing Christian doctrine. I'm not sure where you got the idea that gay marriage was a modern concept, or the idea that the fight for marriage equality was a modern concept, but it definitely is not. I'm genuinely baffled at this statement.

 

With how much you've been consistently wrong on in this thread, not just with in-game lore but with real human history, I really, strongly urge you to consider why you're still staunchly defending what you're saying and not taking a step back to analyze anything.

Edited October 12, 2022 by burstaxe.1832

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:02 PM, Mykhel.6532 said:

No. This is wrong. Zhaitans orb does NOT enter the center in that vision. It is Mordremoths.

 

Top Left: Soo-Won (Water)

Top Right: Kralkatorrik (Lightning)

Left Center: Mordremoth (Life)

Right Center: Zhaitan (Death)

Bottom Left: Primordus (Fire)

Bottom Right: Jormag (Ice)

 

They are literally on the opposing sides to their opposite element. Mordremoths goes around the fixture and then comes center screen before jumping into the middle. Watch it. This is the original video from 2014.

-snip video embed-

The orb that goes into the middle is the left one, which is dark green, predominantly a color used for necromancers and death magic, while the light green / lime orb, a color associated with rangers and nature magic is to the right.

And more importantly: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All#/media/File:The_All_(texture).png

We see in this, Zhaitan is put to the left side, and Mordremoth is put to the right side. The other four are firmly in the same coloring as would be expected. White for Jormag, Orange/Red for Primordus. Purple for Kralkatorrik. Blue for Soo-Won.

 

This cinematic is depicting the act of Zhaitan's magic falling back into Tyria due to its death, which is why it crashes into the world orb in the middle.

On 10/8/2022 at 10:39 AM, Mykhel.6532 said:

This makes NO sense. She existed with the void before her children existed. How did she combat the void then? How was she able to create and grow 5 children in the midst of the void before they had the ability to do so? you have no answer for this, because there isn't one. It's bad writing.

Soo-Won didn't exist "with the Void". She did not combat the Void then.

The Void is not all existence, there's a whole multiverse out there. Soo-Won could have been all across the Mists before creating Tyria from the Void (presumably just a portion of it).

She didn't create the Elder Dragons "in the midsts of the Void" either, because she created the world by manipulating the Void, realized she could not handle keeping the Void at bay long term alone, and then created the other Elder Dragons.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

15 hours ago, burstaxe.1832 said:

People have been campaigning for equal marriage rights since at least the 1970s in the United States alone. Pedro Díaz and Muño Vandilaz were married in Spain by a priest in 1061. Ann Lister and Ann Walker were married in York in 1843. Same sex marriage was outlawed in Rome in 342 AD by Constantius II imposing Christian doctrine. I'm not sure where you got the idea that gay marriage was a modern concept, or the idea that the fight for marriage equality was a modern concept, but it definitely is not. I'm genuinely baffled at this statement.

 

With how much you've been consistently wrong on in this thread, not just with in-game lore but with real human history, I really, strongly urge you to consider why you're still staunchly defending what you're saying and not taking a step back to analyze anything.

Some of this stuff doesn't quite track, at least how you're implying. Homosexual Marriage has never been permissible in the Catholic Church, so the priest that married Pedro and Muno was either heretical or, as this Article (6th paragraph down) may imply, didn't know both were men. Ann and Ann (hurrhurrhurr) didn't have a formal wedding ceremony, religious or civil, they just exchanged personal vows and then had Communion at Holy Trinity Church. And according to this portion of the wiki article about Homosexuality in Ancient Rome, Roman law didn't recognize same sex marriage. You've been implying, consciously or not, that gay marriage has always been an excepted thing outside a couple of periods of bigotry, when marriage has been before all else a means of creating heirs.

Additionally, I don't believe Mykhel has been wrong about everything he or she has said in this thread either. Some stuff yes, by their own admission in some cases as well as a few that aren't. Mykhel's only consistent problem is being too hyperbolic and argumentative, intentionally or not.  I'd only recommend to them to take things more calmly and choose their words more carefully.

[burstaxe.1832]

3 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Some of this stuff doesn't quite track, at least how you're implying. Homosexual Marriage has never been permissible in the Catholic Church, so the priest that married Pedro and Muno was either heretical or, as this Article (6th paragraph down) may imply, didn't know both were men. Ann and Ann (hurrhurrhurr) didn't have a formal wedding ceremony, religious or civil, they just exchanged personal vows and then had Communion at Holy Trinity Church. And according to this portion of the wiki article about Homosexuality in Ancient Rome, Roman law didn't recognize same sex marriage. You've been implying, consciously or not, that gay marriage has always been an excepted thing outside a couple of periods of bigotry, when marriage has been before all else a means of creating heirs.

Additionally, I don't believe Mykhel has been wrong about everything he or she has said in this thread either. Some stuff yes, by their own admission in some cases as well as a few that aren't. Mykhel's only consistent problem is being too hyperbolic and argumentative, intentionally or not.  I'd only recommend to them to take things more calmly and choose their words more carefully.

There's a lot more evidence that gay couples have been together in history and just dismissing it as a "modern concept" does a great disservice to human history and human rights. You can find scholarly article after scholarly article after scholarly article providing ample evidence of same sex marriages throughout history. It's also rather ridiculous that you and Mykhel seem to insist that only traditional ideas of marriage count, when even today there are multiple different forms of marriage outside of a church blessing. You wouldn't look at a common law couple and say they aren't really married, you wouldn't look at a couple who eloped they aren't really married, you wouldn't tell a couple who just went to the courthouse in quiet that they aren't really married. Why is it different when we discuss in a historical context?

 

I never said that Mykhel was wrong about everything - Just that they've been consistently incorrect on multiple things. Including something that no one else has mentioned yet - It's not Minister Yi, his name is Minister Li. There's no character in the game called Minister Yi. If the OP can't even double check something that small and simple, why should any of us take their words at face value? They've also been consistently wrong on other in game lore despite claiming that they've been playing since launch. I haven't been in the Shiverpeaks in years but I know that the Sons of Svanir will explicitly kill female icebrood because they don't believe women are worthy, and that's because of Jora killing her brother Svanir who was the FIRST icebrood corrupted back in the original Guild Wars. I haven't touched much of the mainline story in years and I know that Caithe and Faolin were always explicitly a couple, not just in a close sisterly bond. There are multiple other LGBT NPCs throughout the story that OP conveniently forgot, as well.

[Kalavier.1097]

12 hours ago, burstaxe.1832 said:

There's a lot more evidence that gay couples have been together in history and just dismissing it as a "modern concept" does a great disservice to human history and human rights.

"These two men/these two women shared a bed while traveling, they must have been good friends/master and servant, though we have no idea why they did it."

Reality: They were a couple.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

23 hours ago, burstaxe.1832 said:

There's a lot more evidence that gay couples have been together in history and just dismissing it as a "modern concept" does a great disservice to human history and human rights. You can find scholarly article after scholarly article after scholarly article providing ample evidence of same sex marriages throughout history. It's also rather ridiculous that you and Mykhel seem to insist that only traditional ideas of marriage count, when even today there are multiple different forms of marriage outside of a church blessing. You wouldn't look at a common law couple and say they aren't really married, you wouldn't look at a couple who eloped they aren't really married, you wouldn't tell a couple who just went to the courthouse in quiet that they aren't really married. Why is it different when we discuss in a historical context?

 

I never said that Mykhel was wrong about everything - Just that they've been consistently incorrect on multiple things. Including something that no one else has mentioned yet - It's not Minister Yi, his name is Minister Li. There's no character in the game called Minister Yi. If the OP can't even double check something that small and simple, why should any of us take their words at face value? They've also been consistently wrong on other in game lore despite claiming that they've been playing since launch. I haven't been in the Shiverpeaks in years but I know that the Sons of Svanir will explicitly kill female icebrood because they don't believe women are worthy, and that's because of Jora killing her brother Svanir who was the FIRST icebrood corrupted back in the original Guild Wars. I haven't touched much of the mainline story in years and I know that Caithe and Faolin were always explicitly a couple, not just in a close sisterly bond. There are multiple other LGBT NPCs throughout the story that OP conveniently forgot, as well.

I didn't actually "insist that only traditional ideas of marriage count, when even today there are multiple different forms of marriage outside of a church blessing" with my comment, you did that by putting words in my mouth, which I should have expected. One of these days I'll learn my lesson and temper my expectations about people...

My issue was with those specific examples and the wording you used with them.  You brought up the priest in Pedro and Muno's case, giving that specific case the sense that it was something allowable at that time in place, which wouldn't have been historically accurate.  With Ann and Ann (heheheh) its similar, they weren't married by either a minister or a judge, it was just a sort of common law marriage, which incidentally haven't been legal in England since 1753.  Speaking of common law marriage, sorry but no, I actually don't see those as valid. A lot of people don't, many don't know the term even. A lot of common law type countries don't. The UK's kinda split on the issue, so is Canada far as I can tell, the US only has seven states and DC where its legally recognized, Ireland doesn't. And before I forget, Constantius II merely banned something that was already not legally recognized and possibly not socially recognized , but you're phrasing again implied it was a common and accepted occurrence before Constantius. This, this was my point in my original comment.  Anyways, I've had enough of this burning, radioactive toxic dumpsite of a thread, and am going to move on before ban hammers start getting passed out.

Edited October 14, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[kharmin.7683]

On 10/11/2022 at 3:24 AM, Dib.4612 said:

Yes.

I think Anet has been a 'progressive' company for a long time and they develop in the same direction as that ideology. Meaning, they use the game as a platform for their activism more and more as using any power you have for activism is the 'progressive' trend.  

Honestly I liked the lore from the first Guild Wars. And the base lore of GW2 I liked too. But pretty much from Season 1 onward it's been mostly either uninspired or squeezed into an activists mold, with some exceptions of course. 

Well, they are based on the US west coast where many communities lean heavily to the Left and harbor far more progressive viewpoints than most of the rest of the US (with some east coast exceptions).  That they inject progressivism into their product really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I agree with your assessment of the lore from LS1 forward.  I worry that this trend might push far more aggressively as wokeness continues to evolve.  I hope that I'm wrong.

[b k.1648]

On 9/23/2022 at 7:23 AM, Farohna.6247 said:

Love when these posts go from "help me understand or is it just me" to completely derailing, pulling off the layers, and we get to see what it's really about.  Always interesting.  

Yep.
3 weeks later and it's still just projecting personal issues onto the game's characters.

[Farohna.6247]

2 hours ago, Ben K.6238 said:

Yep.
3 weeks later and it's still just projecting personal issues onto the game's characters.

The gift that keeps on giving 😆

[burstaxe.1832]

11 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I didn't actually "insist that only traditional ideas of marriage count, when even today there are multiple different forms of marriage outside of a church blessing" with my comment, you did that by putting words in my mouth, which I should have expected. One of these days I'll learn my lesson and temper my expectations about people...

My issue was with those specific examples and the wording you used with them.  You brought up the priest in Pedro and Muno's case, giving that specific case the sense that it was something allowable at that time in place, which wouldn't have been historically accurate.  With Ann and Ann (heheheh) its similar, they weren't married by either a minister or a judge, it was just a sort of common law marriage, which incidentally haven't been legal in England since 1753.  Speaking of common law marriage, sorry but no, I actually don't see those as valid. A lot of people don't, many don't know the term even. A lot of common law type countries don't. The UK's kinda split on the issue, so is Canada far as I can tell, the US only has seven states and DC where its legally recognized, Ireland doesn't. And before I forget, Constantius II merely banned something that was already not legally recognized and possibly not socially recognized , but you're phrasing again implied it was a common and accepted occurrence before Constantius. This, this was my point in my original comment.  Anyways, I've had enough of this burning, radioactive toxic dumpsite of a thread, and am going to move on before ban hammers start getting passed out.

You're being needlessly antagonistic here and I'm not sure why. The point remains that the concept of gay marriages and the fight for them didn't just spring up in the 2000s - It's been an issue all around the world throughout human history. That was the point, that OP stated that the concept gay marriage only came to the cultural zeitgeist roughly 20 years ago. Even on a modern scale this isn't true. Consider the historical examples I've given of gay couples either getting married or trying to get married, regardless of legality, as further proof that it's something that has always been an issue.

Edited October 14, 2022 by burstaxe.1832

[voltaicbore.8012]

15 hours ago, burstaxe.1832 said:

Consider the historical examples I've given of gay couples either getting married or trying to get married, regardless of legality, as further proof that it's something that has always been an issue.

It's certainly been a very ancient/longstanding issue, but the "fight" for it you cite is vastly different in nature than the last-20-years version of the fight that OP was referring to. It's only recently that modern, Western societies broadly celebrate (or at least, civilly tolerate) the open struggle for such rights. It wasn't that long ago that just outright killing gay folks for being themselves carried far less social outrage than it does now. Sure, there were always safe havens and pockets of support, but the widespread acceptance of the struggle's legitimacy is most certainly a modern development.

Edited October 15, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

6 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

It's certainly been a very ancient/longstanding issue, but the "fight" for it you cite is vastly different in nature than the last-20-years version of the fight that OP was referring to. It's only recently that modern, Western societies broadly celebrate (or at least, civilly tolerate) the open struggle for such rights. It wasn't that long ago that just outright killing gay folks for being themselves carried far less social outrage than it does now. Sure, there were always safe havens and pockets of support, but the widespread acceptance of the struggle's legitimacy is most certainly a modern development.

Its almost like people are meant to evolve instead of stay the same forever, and having techology that allows us to learn things makes us smarter and more open-minded instead of fitting neatly into the traditions that we're raised in by those with more knowledge and power (though not neccessarily wisdom) than us.

 

The unfortunate part is, alot of people still think they're better than others for being a cardboard cutout. Like the definition of normal somehow makes them superior when it points more to a lack of development, trying to live the same way and be the same way forever, generation after generation, and a forever-changing world. We went from telegraphs to smart phones and from messenger pigeons to the internet, but somehow the human being isn't supposed to change.

 

I just feel sad for alot of people these days, deliberately becoming stuck in time, and getting others stuck along with them. Clinging to feelings and methodologies that will inevitably fade away, just like everything.

 

As the old saying goes, time waits for no one.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Mykhel.6532]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:12 PM, Ben K.6238 said:

Yep.
3 weeks later and it's still just projecting personal issues onto the game's characters.

 

It's people like you as to why I've stopped responding. Following where the conversation leads is somehow "projecting personal issues onto the game's characters." I don't like where the story is going and it's gone way too far for me to care anymore. Especially when this community is extremely bigoted when it comes to opinions that go against the narrative.

15 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Its almost like people are meant to evolve instead of stay the same forever, and having techology that allows us to learn things makes us smarter and more open-minded instead of fitting neatly into the traditions that we're raised in by those with more knowledge and power (though not neccessarily wisdom) than us

If that were true, we would've had an advancing civilization thousands of years ago. It took a nation adopting true Christian principles (as Europe's tyrannical church was false) and creating a foundational document (the Constitution) which respects the basic rights granted by God (independence, freedom, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, "love" thy neighbor). These rights have existed since the dawn of time... but humans resisted them... always because of power. We only achieved this age when we finally returned to those things. No "evolution" needed. Had we stuck to those principles from the very beginning, who knows what glorious tech we would have by now.

 

On 10/14/2022 at 6:44 PM, burstaxe.1832 said:

You're being needlessly antagonistic here and I'm not sure why. The point remains that the concept of gay marriages and the fight for them didn't just spring up in the 2000s - It's been an issue all around the world throughout human history.

 

On 10/14/2022 at 5:30 PM, Farohna.6247 said:

The gift that keeps on giving 😆

 

On 10/13/2022 at 11:37 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

"These two men/these two women shared a bed while traveling, they must have been good friends/master and servant, though we have no idea why they did it."

Reality: They were a couple.

More reasons this will be my last response. Completely irrelevant to my OP. People focusing on this when it was just a blip in the conversation thread and not my OP... but people still think I'm putting my personal beliefs into this...lol.

 

On 10/13/2022 at 10:36 AM, burstaxe.1832 said:

It's not Minister Yi, his name is Minister Li. There's no character in the game called Minister Yi. If the OP can't even double check something that small and simple, why should any of us take their words at face value?

Hahahaha. He was such a forgettable 'nothing' of a character, it took 3 weeks+ for someone to correct me. Just further proves my point with how terrible of a character he was... I thought it was Yi this whole time and I think I'll still call him that.

 

On 10/12/2022 at 3:18 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The orb that goes into the middle is the left one, which is dark green, predominantly a color used for necromancers and death magic, while the light green / lime orb, a color associated with rangers and nature magic is to the right.

And more importantly: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All#/media/File:The_All_(texture).png

We see in this, Zhaitan is put to the left side, and Mordremoth is put to the right side. The other four are firmly in the same coloring as would be expected. White for Jormag, Orange/Red for Primordus. Purple for Kralkatorrik. Blue for Soo-Won.

Yup. You're right. I couldn't find anything that supports my argument here. I really did try. I guess I've had it wrong since HoT. I know Necro isn't my main, but I SWEAR even the ability icons were a ominous yellow...Oh well. Wouldn't have been my color scheme choice, but again, that's not my call.

 

Bottom line: I don' think I'll be returning for another expansion if this next LWS6 (or 5 if IBS didn't count or was like an intermission or something) doesn't have some serious changes to the writing. Soo-Won was a horrible, evil character (her actions killed billions of Tyrians) and her creationist story makes ZERO sense; they ruined what I thought the Dragon Cycle was, Ankka was mediocre at best; honestly, she's barely memorable, it's clear to me the writers hate male characters, and I won't support a company who injects their personal ideology into their story. I don't care which side, left/right/up/down, etc...  Keep politics of the modern times OUT OF GAMES! I wish you all the best of luck and have as much fun with this game as you want! This is just MY opinion!

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

17 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

 

It's people like you as to why I've stopped responding. Following where the conversation leads is somehow "projecting personal issues onto the game's characters." I don't like where the story is going and it's gone way too far for me to care anymore. Especially when this community is extremely bigoted when it comes to opinions that go against the narrative.

If that were true, we would've had an advancing civilization thousands of years ago. It took a nation adopting true Christian principles (as Europe's tyrannical church was false) and creating a foundational document (the Constitution) which respects the basic rights granted by God (independence, freedom, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, "love" thy neighbor). These rights have existed since the dawn of time... but humans resisted them... always because of power. We only achieved this age when we finally returned to those things. No "evolution" needed. Had we stuck to those principles from the very beginning, who knows what glorious tech we would have by now.

 

 

 

More reasons this will be my last response. Completely irrelevant to my OP. People focusing on this when it was just a blip in the conversation thread and not my OP... but people still think I'm putting my personal beliefs into this...lol.

 

Hahahaha. He was such a forgettable 'nothing' of a character, it took 3 weeks+ for someone to correct me. Just further proves my point with how terrible of a character he was... I thought it was Yi this whole time and I think I'll still call him that.

 

Yup. You're right. I couldn't find anything that supports my argument here. I really did try. I guess I've had it wrong since HoT. I know Necro isn't my main, but I SWEAR even the ability icons were a ominous yellow...Oh well. Wouldn't have been my color scheme choice, but again, that's not my call.

 

Bottom line: I don' think I'll be returning for another expansion if this next LWS6 (or 5 if IBS didn't count or was like an intermission or something) doesn't have some serious changes to the writing. Soo-Won was a horrible, evil character (her actions killed billions of Tyrians) and her creationist story makes ZERO sense; they ruined what I thought the Dragon Cycle was, Ankka was mediocre at best; honestly, she's barely memorable, it's clear to me the writers hate male characters, and I won't support a company who injects their personal ideology into their story. I don't care which side, left/right/up/down, etc...  Keep politics of the modern times OUT OF GAMES! I wish you all the best of luck and have as much fun with this game as you want! This is just MY opinion!

Friend, you really need to let go and let yourself grow some more.

I'm sorry but other people aren't you. They don't believe the same things, they don't live the same ways, so arguing with them because they won't be like you while simultaneously saying you're the one who doesn't want to argue, it just doesn't make sense.  Your whole problem with people is that they argue with you, while you're the one making arguments. Its like bread and butter at this point.

 

Good luck in your future endeavors.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Farohna.6247]

2 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

 

It's people like you as to why I've stopped responding. Following where the conversation leads is somehow "projecting personal issues onto the game's characters." I don't like where the story is going and it's gone way too far for me to care anymore. Especially when this community is extremely bigoted when it comes to opinions that go against the narrative.

If that were true, we would've had an advancing civilization thousands of years ago. It took a nation adopting true Christian principles (as Europe's tyrannical church was false) and creating a foundational document (the Constitution) which respects the basic rights granted by God (independence, freedom, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, "love" thy neighbor). These rights have existed since the dawn of time... but humans resisted them... always because of power. We only achieved this age when we finally returned to those things. No "evolution" needed. Had we stuck to those principles from the very beginning, who knows what glorious tech we would have by now.

 

 

 

More reasons this will be my last response. Completely irrelevant to my OP. People focusing on this when it was just a blip in the conversation thread and not my OP... but people still think I'm putting my personal beliefs into this...lol.

Gosh it's great to see some patriotic opinions not giving any bias to OP there.  You know because that was written in a time where if you were not a white, anglo saxon, protestant, hetero male, clearly it was all roses and hearts....wasn't it?  You know because there haven't been any amendments due to changing values and evolution of understanding.  Huh go figure.  But yeh, no personal opinions involved.  

OP, we can respect your personal values, many players do not share them and have their own.  You're correct in maybe this isn't a game that aligns with your political, moral, or religious values, and that's ok.  There are many, many games out there where you won't have to feel uncomfortable.  And best wishes for you in that, and be kind to others, even if they have a different view on the world.

[Forum Moderator.3074]

Locking this thread because it's devolving too much into RL/political discussion plus users picking on each other.