Bring back the Pve Reaper

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

All yes and in addition, the answer doesn't change the truth of what I said. 

What is the damage ratio between in and out of shroud?

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Artificer.3468 said:

Necro has 2 other specs that can be better leveraged for support i'm pretty sure but none compete well for power dps. i dont see an issue with bumping up reaper's damage and leaning into support on one of the other 2. harbinger does boons already and scourge has defensive support. 

Great, then you won't complain if Reaper never gets a team because ... you can play the 2 other specs that teams want right? 😉

I don't have a problem with Anet increasing Reaper DPS. The issue here is pretending like not having competitive DPS prevents people from getting a team is a reason to do that. It's not.

Again, what problem are we talking about solving here? If you are trying to solve team-desirability, GL with DPS buffs. We know how that works, or rather, how it doesn't work. 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

What is the damage ratio between in and out of shroud?

Depends on the trait choices and the time people spend in each mode, their rotation, their weapon choices, sigils/runes. In otherwords, it's not a fixed number and it's highly variable ...

yet for some reason, you won't acknowledge that these factors must influence where Anet decides where to make coefficient increases to get a targeted DPS buff on the spec. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Depends on the trait choices and the time people spend in each mode.. In otherwords, it's not a fixed number.  

Based on the golem benchmark with standard choices and golem boon/conditions. What else could I possibly be talking about? That is the entire basis of this entire discussion.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Based on the golem benchmark with standard choices and golem boon/conditions. What else could I possibly be talking about? That is the entire basis of this entire discussion.

 

No, that's how you simplified all the complexities I'm talking about to a single scenario to ignore what I'm saying.

Interestingly, everyone knows the golem, even Anet doesn't reflect how the game is played or what the majority of players do in actual gameplay. So you are literally arguing with me that it's simple for Anet to just buff DPS a certain amount reliably ... based on a completely irrelevant measure of DPS that ignores the reality of how most players interact with the game. 

It's just not as simple as you want to make it sound.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's how you simplified all the complexities I'm talking about to a single scenario to ignore what I'm saying.

See, the problem with the golem benchmark (and it's acknowledged) is that it doesn't reflect how the game is played or what the majority of players do. So you are literally arguing with me that it's simple for Anet to just buff DPS ... based on a completely irrelevant measure of gameplay that ignores the reality of how most players interact with the game. 

I guess we are done here. 

Nope we are not, you are going off on some weird tangent. This is a really basic question, what is the damage in/out of shroud for a power reaper based on golem benchmark. I am not even saying this metric is useful, I am showing everyone that you deflect and ignore questions that you are unable to answer and thus not worth listening to.

 

I also don't know if you realize this, but the more you type the more mistake you are making. You just don't realize it because you don't know what is golem benchmark and what is the purpose of it. So that shows the previous yes for golem benchmark was a lie. This then further discredits your posts which makes the process easier. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Nope we are not, you are going off on some weird tangent.

No weird tangent here. It's just not as simple to get a reliable DPS increase as 'buff X%' on a Reaper as you try to make it sound. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Artificer.3468]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Great, then you won't complain if Reaper never gets a team because ... you can play the 2 other specs that teams want right? 😉

I don't have a problem with Anet increasing Reaper DPS. The issue here is pretending like not having competitive DPS prevents people from getting a team is a reason to do that. It's not.

Again, what problem are we talking about solving here? If you are trying to solve team-desirability, GL with DPS buffs. We know how that works, or rather, how it doesn't work. 

 

That's never really my reason for asking for buffs because i always try to avoid pugging so I cant speak on the experience. 

 

To say it wont help at all with team desirability though i dont think is true but i dont have data either way. there are literal spots in teams that are meant almost purely for dps and if anything extra, CC unless your base class is something like mesmer or the benefit is for free during your rotation.so i dont see the issue in that reasoning either. 

 

I also dont see an argument for leaving power reaper where it is in pve either but this will be my last comment in this thread.

[Warscythes.9307]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No weird tangent here. It's just not as simple to get a reliable DPS increase as 'buff X%' like you want to make it sound. 

You just ignored the question again. You are not even able to just say I don't know and I was wrong to use that metric before.

 

So yes now I think we are completely done here. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Artificer.3468 said:

That's never really my reason for asking for buffs because i always try to avoid pugging so I cant speak on the experience. 

 

To say it wont help at all with team desirability though i dont think is true but i dont have data either way. there are literal spots in teams that are meant almost purely for dps and if anything extra, CC unless your base class is something like mesmer or the benefit is for free during your rotation.so i dont see the issue in that reasoning either. 

 

I also dont see an argument for leaving power reaper where it is in pve either but this will be my last comment in this thread.

Well, this is the crux right? People don't dig very deep when they throw out the 'more DPS' solutions. Seems to me the don't even scratch the surface when they try to justify it. 

I'm not saying it won't help ... obviously more DPS is beneficial. But in the scenario where teams want optimal performance, we already know what they are looking for right? We already know what kinds of features/skills are desirable by teams right? These things are not mysteries. Even when dungeons were king ... support for team mates was what clinched positions in optimal team comps. 

Is there a reason to give Reaper more DPS? Probably from some angle there is. There is probably good reasons even and if someone would give any of them, that would be awesome. What I do know ... it's not because 'not desirable in optimal teams' because we already have the choices available to us and the tools to deal with that specific and limited situation. 

Now, if we really want to make a difference in how Reaper is desirable in ANY team, not just optimal ones, we don't ignore how Anet is creating that environment through boon sharing and team support, EVEN if it conflicts with personal ideas of what  a spec SHOULD be. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

You just ignored the question again.

Yes I did ... because the answer doesn't change what I said.  Increasing reaper damage a reliable amount is not just a simple matter of using some irrelevant benchmark value from a scenario that isn't relevant to how anyone plays the game. Again, as I have told you multiple times, I'm talking about the implementation of a DPS increase, not about whatever specific benchmark would be used to determine it. 

That's the WORST thing about players in this game. Somehow they convinced themselves that it's all about individual DPS when the reality is that the REAL value is how a team works together, buffs each other and knows the encounters. No wonder we get threads like this one where people have no idea why Reaper isn't good in PVE. 

So again, are you ACTUALLY trying to solve team desirability with a DPS increase? I guess you think you are. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

ಠ_ಠ
.
.
.
just give me my 50% boost damage, alright?

[Warscythes.9307]

1 hour ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

ಠ_ಠ
.
.
.
just give me my 50% boost damage, alright?

No, that's too high.

[Radina.6057]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's the WORST thing about players in this game. Somehow they convinced themselves that it's all about individual DPS when the reality is that the REAL value is how a team works together, buffs each other and knows the encounters. No wonder we get threads like this one where people have no idea why Reaper isn't good in PVE. 

This reads like some "believe in the heart of the cards" line. 
Anyway.
Believing in your team mates and trusting their heals works on every other spec. Not Reaper. That religious endeavor also wont save you from getting stomped by an ordinary QFB.

 

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So again, are you ACTUALLY trying to solve team desirability with a DPS increase? I guess you think you are. 

Ahm. Yeah. This is how DPS specs work. They are supposed to deal damage. You know. Like Virtu, Soulbeast, the infamous Mech, and all the other selfish dps careers. All of them are rather welcome everywhere. Mostly because they deal alot more damage than a QFB.

 

You also need half a dozen of them to fill a Raidsquad.

 

1 hour ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

ಠ_ಠ
.
.
.
just give me my 50% boost damage, alright?

 

Reaper got 31k atm. PVirtu and SB got 38k. So 22% more damage would be a great spot, if they fix the rotation and the anmation canceling.

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Radina.6057 said:

This reads like some "believe in the heart of the cards" line. 
Anyway.
Believing in your team mates and trusting their heals works on every other spec. Not Reaper. That religious endeavor also wont save you from getting stomped by an ordinary QFB.

Sure ... that's actually one of the reasons it's not desirable in PVE. It's a liability in the hands of inexperienced users and it's shroud mechanics are not inline with how team healing mechanics actually function. That's not really related to getting more DPS to make it more desirable though. That big problem still remains, even if it were to get top DPS. 

26 minutes ago, Radina.6057 said:

Ahm. Yeah. This is how DPS specs work. They are supposed to deal damage. You know. Like Virtu, Soulbeast, the infamous Mech, and all the other selfish dps careers. All of them are rather welcome everywhere. Mostly because they deal alot more damage than a QFB.

Yup, I'm aware of how that all works. It goes without saying that a DPS spec works by dealing damage so, not sure the point you are trying to make to me. 

26 minutes ago, Radina.6057 said:

You also need half a dozen of them to fill a Raidsquad.

Sure. That's not really a challenge though. I mean, if you are indicating Reaper should be competitive DPS to 'help' fill those spots, I'm not sure that's a valid point. 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Nimon.7840]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's sad people still think this is solved with MOAR DPS. That's not the answer here. It never will be. Not for instanced team content, not for OW. 

Whether we think shroud replacing health is a mistake or not is irrelevant ... that's what it is. That's what it will be. If you don't like that style of 'health-replacement', we have two specs that don't use shroud that way. 

The problem-statement itself isn't even very clear in most of these threads. 

If the problem is not team-desirable, then it needs more team-desirable features.

If the problem is "dropping" from shroud too much, that's a build/player problem because that toolset is there. 

Personally, the problem I have with Reaper is that I feel like the only 'playstyle' of any value when NOT in shroud is the one that simply ensures you hang around to get back into shroud the instant it's available; the non-shroud mode is low-value play. It's the SAME problem v2 Berserker had. 

 

I agree, but I'd even expand the problem.

Right now dropping out of shroud will put you in

1) low dps time - shroud waiting room (above 50%)

2) spam one Button gameplay - shroud waiting room, hoping you get enough lifeforce, because gravedigger doesn't generate lf

I can understand Anet not giving straight up more dps to reaper, even though I'd like to see that.

Where would you put that damage increase? Shroud? Probably not, that might lead to the ranger problem, being able to spike 70k dps which was a big problem. But if you put dmg on GS, shroud might not feel as rewarding, and we might find shroud only used as defensive tool.

 

The expanded problem:

They made reaper very self sufficient for open world, the problem is that you take almost the same traits/traitlines in instanced PvE.

Biggest two problems: reapers onslaught and reapers might.

Makes reaper, get 50% quickness uptime and 25might.

But in instanced content, the supporters provide might and quickness, so both of those effects are basically "wasted" in group content.

If you just wanted to increase dps output, I'd say just adjusting reapers actionspeed would solve the dps "problem".

For example if aftercasts were reduced on gs2, gs5 and reaper shroud autoattack to name a few, that would already help quite a lot.

Or you could bring back old reapers onslaught, but change it a bit, so it gives 300 ferocity and makes every action of reaper 10% faster, but this time around this effect should stack with quickness, old version was just overridden by quickness if i remember correctly.

But that wouldn't change the problem that everything reaper does, just feels like shroud waiting room. But currently I don't have THE IDEA on how to fix that without making shroud feel kinda lame.

For example you could replace the boons, it generates, but that would create a problem for competitive modes imo.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Nimon.7840

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

4 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

No, that's too high.

49.99% then, that's my last offer.

[Axl.8924]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Depends on the trait choices and the time people spend in each mode, their rotation, their weapon choices, sigils/runes. In otherwords, it's not a fixed number and it's highly variable ...

yet for some reason, you won't acknowledge that these factors must influence where Anet decides where to make coefficient increases to get a targeted DPS buff on the spec. 

You forgot to mention you  have to enter reaper shroud and leave to have optimal for certain... buffs.

1 hour ago, Nimon.7840 said:

 

I agree, but I'd even expand the problem.

Right now dropping out of shroud will put you in

1) low dps time - shroud waiting room (above 50%)

2) spam one Button gameplay - shroud waiting room, hoping you get enough lifeforce, because gravedigger doesn't generate lf

I can understand Anet not giving straight up more dps to reaper, even though I'd like to see that.

Where would you put that damage increase? Shroud? Probably not, that might lead to the ranger problem, being able to spike 70k dps which was a big problem. But if you put dmg on GS, shroud might not feel as rewarding, and we might find shroud only used as defensive tool.

 

The expanded problem:

They made reaper very self sufficient for open world, the problem is that you take almost the same traits/traitlines in instanced PvE.

Biggest two problems: reapers onslaught and reapers might.

Makes reaper, get 50% quickness uptime and 25might.

But in instanced content, the supporters provide might and quickness, so both of those effects are basically "wasted" in group content.

If you just wanted to increase dps output, I'd say just adjusting reapers actionspeed would solve the dps "problem".

For example if aftercasts were reduced on gs2, gs5 and reaper shroud autoattack to name a few, that would already help quite a lot.

Or you could bring back old reapers onslaught, but change it a bit, so it gives 300 ferocity and makes every action of reaper 10% faster, but this time around this effect should stack with quickness, old version was just overridden by quickness if i remember correctly.

But that wouldn't change the problem that everything reaper does, just feels like shroud waiting room. But currently I don't have THE IDEA on how to fix that without making shroud feel kinda lame.

For example you could replace the boons, it generates, but that would create a problem for competitive modes imo.

 

My biggest issue is reaper lost a bunch of sustain on shroud then got nerfed in damage it needs something for pve and raids besides open world and used to get out dpsed by a afk mech.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Dadnir.5038]

7 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Based on the golem benchmark with standard choices and golem boon/conditions. What else could I possibly be talking about? That is the entire basis of this entire discussion.

Truth be told the dps output difference between in and out of shroud isn't very high per se. What's different is the sustainability of the damage output in the first 50% of the boss's health pool.

However, like Obtena said it's also a matter of build. The LI builds will favor using shroud, creating a gap in the dps between both state, while the builds that are a bit more demanding make out of shroud skills more important (closing the gap).

[Dadnir.5038]

2 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Why isn-t it allowed to have at least 37-38k DPS or a choice on the bottom to be able to tank maybe change something so you lose a lot of your dps as a reaper and gain some extra sustain tools and maybe a few support options to be a full on tank.

Reaper can tank just fine, the issue is that it isn't attractive as a tank because it can only take the beating while other option provide attractive support on top of that. And it isn't allowed to have competitive dps because it is naturally more resilient than other dps.

Which bring us to the eternal same arguments, if you want reaper to be competitive as a tank you need to give him attractive support, if you want him to be attractive as a dps you need to get rid of the fact that it got 3-4 time the effective HP of the squishiest glass dps.

[Warscythes.9307]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Truth be told the dps output difference between in and out of shroud isn't very high per se. What's different is the sustainability of the damage output in the first 50% of the boss's health pool.

However, like Obtena said it's also a matter of build. The LI builds will favor using shroud, creating a gap in the dps between both state, while the builds that are a bit more demanding make out of shroud skills more important (closing the gap).

I know you didn't read past the entire thread but I think you are a bit more reasonable to talk to so let me explain why I asked this question.

 

Obenta threw out the statement during our discussion when I gave a rough example of 6/4 split of in vs out of shroud damage to demonstrate that an universal 10% damage buff would means it stays constant. Because 6/4 would still be 6/4 after you increase everything about 10%. She then says no the damage is difference in vs out of shroud is vastly bigger than that.

 

This is where I got my hint that she doesn't know what she's talking about and essentially just lies hoping the other person doesn't know the topic. Because I personally do power reaper benches, not public but mostly for myself and I check the latest benchmark logs so I have a pretty decent idea of what is the ratio. So I ask her what does she think it is. If you then read through the thread, then you can see that she literally ignores the questions and when cornered, go on some tangent on how is not relevant etc etc. I don't even care about what the number means, I was more trying to determine that she is somebody who is worth talking to, somebody who  can just say I don't know and it was wrong of them to throw out statements like that pretending then do.

 

As you can see I got neither, so that made up my mind it was effectively useless to continue the conversation.

 

Also as an actual reply to your quote. The reason we are looking at the golem benchmark is because it is a constant. Yes we know that it is impossible to bench for every different fight condition and builds. It is generally done assuming a realistic fight. LI is not taken into consideration into balancing here simply because the optimal fight rotation is very much achievable for the average player. This is not some condi core engie piano or sword weaver BS or DE meme, this is a very basic burst rotation. If you can't do this then why are you even in a discussion about golem benchmark, where it is a metric used to discuss raid encounters? We have to assume some sort of basic competency considering the content that is being discussed. If this is OW then who cares about golem benchmarks?

In addition an universal buff will buff LI and benchmark no matter what, the percentage might be less for LI but there will no doubt be a dps increase so it will benefit. LI however has always essentially been a simplified version of the actual rotation, it should not be placed under consideration for general golem. What generally should happen is that we buff the benchmark overall to around the ballpark AND if LI somehow has extremely disproportional discrepancy, THEN we can think about how to buff it without overbuffing the optimal rotation. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Also as an actual reply to your quote. The reason we are looking at the golem benchmark is because it is a constant. Yes we know that it is impossible to bench for every different fight condition and builds. It is generally done assuming a realistic fight. LI is not taken into consideration into balancing here simply because the optimal fight rotation is very much achievable for the average player. This is not some condi core engie piano or sword weaver BS or DE meme, this is a very basic burst rotation. If you can't do this then why are you even in a discussion about golem benchmark, where it is a metric used to discuss raid encounters? We have to assume some sort of basic competency considering the content that is being discussed. If this is OW then who cares about golem benchmarks?

In addition an universal buff will buff LI and benchmark no matter what, the percentage might be less for LI but there will no doubt be a dps increase so it will benefit. LI however has always essentially been a simplified version of the actual rotation, it should not be placed under consideration for general golem. What generally should happen is that we buff the benchmark overall to around the ballpark AND if LI somehow has extremely disproportional discrepancy, THEN we can think about how to buff it without overbuffing the optimal rotation. 

That's part of the problem with your objection to what I was talking about. My point has nothing to do with how Anet determines the desired increase. I'm specifically talking about how any damage increase to Reaper would actually be implemented in the coefficients. Essentially, you were objective to a point I made with something that has no relevance to it. The only reason you asked that question about DPS differences was to win an argument and since it had nothing to do with my point, I didn't answer you. My point was simple:

It's easy enough for Anet to conclude we need a specific DPS increase, regardless of how they determine it: Golem, Dart board, tea leaves ... pick one ... it doesn't matter. The get some value they want to target, HOWEVER they determine it.

What I'm saying is that the complex part is to determine where that increase is made in the skills because that determines if the increase is actually effective or not. That's more complex on Reaper than most other specs because of how we have a modal DPS distribution. Unfortunately, you decided to ignore that valid point and go down some strawman with irrelevant quizzes about DPS breakdowns. The important thing to note is that the DPS profile is different between those two modes, not whether I know what the DPs differences are. 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Truth be told the dps output difference between in and out of shroud isn't very high per se. What's different is the sustainability of the damage output in the first 50% of the boss's health pool.

However, like Obtena said it's also a matter of build. The LI builds will favor using shroud, creating a gap in the dps between both state, while the builds that are a bit more demanding make out of shroud skills more important (closing the gap).

True. The critical part to the point I was making here isn't the absolute difference between in and out shroud DPS (which is why it's nonsense to even engage with someone about the real DPS values between them), but that in and out of shroud are two completely damage profiles; two different weapons, traits that are in-shroud specific, time-dependencies of shroud, etc ... 

For some reason, the point I was making that these two damage profile differences make implementing targeted DPS increases complex on Reaper because of how they affect different playstyles is a hard concept for some people to understand, apparently even moreso if they are proponents of getting more DPS. How coincidental. 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Reaper can tank just fine, the issue is that it isn't attractive as a tank because it can only take the beating while other option provide attractive support on top of that. And it isn't allowed to have competitive dps because it is naturally more resilient than other dps.

Which bring us to the eternal same arguments, if you want reaper to be competitive as a tank you need to give him attractive support, if you want him to be attractive as a dps you need to get rid of the fact that it got 3-4 time the effective HP of the squishiest glass dps.

 

It got nerfed in sustain its now way behind. In World of warcraft there is a minimal amount of dps separation between class there is no hybrid tax for instance and  everyone fits a role What role does reaper fit exactly? tank role? it can't do that support? not really DPS? nope what is it there for then?  to exist as a metric to be at the bottom for allowing classes to be superior to?

When i see berserker for instance or if i want to play untamted i am going to see what roles they can fit in in fractals or raid see what i can do, and not being able to do content due to amount unmotivates me because i see that i'm forced to play classes or elites i end up not wanting to play to be able to enjoy the game.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Warscythes.9307]

6 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

It got nerfed in sustain its now way behind in World of warcraft there is a minimal amount of dps separation between class there is no hybrid tax for instance and  everyone fits a role What role does reaper fit exactly? tank role? it can't do that support? not really DPS? nope what is it there for then?  to exist as a metric to be at the bottom for allowing classes to be superior to?

Well it honestly can do both. Though let's honest, literally every single class in the game can "tank" if you slap on enough ministrels. The problem of course is that you need to do something else beyond not dying. This typically means you are a healer of sort kind because healers normally can be built tanky and can sustain themselves if other healer go out of stack to do mechanics or whatever. Then in addition to that is typically alacrity or quickness.

 

So if you really really want to make "tank" reaper work, it need to be able to heal and grant one of those boons. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Warscythes.9307