Mechanist is dividing the Community

[Animism.7530]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a completely weird question. You don't think the fact that it's completely unreasonable to complain about balance because of unreasonable expectations for satisfying  over constrained requirements from players has a place in a discussion about what is reasonable for balance?

I think it does. 

Your argument is that complete balance is impossible and everyone and their reasons to play other classes given through feedback is automatically incorrect. Yet you're here trying to undermine everyone at every step, even when people have very reasonable feedback. Contrasted with your forum signature about baiting people for the sake of argument, I'm surprised you aren't banned from the forums. 

You think you sound clever but that sentence is just complete nonsense. It's like the Andies from Hot Fuzz. Please stop writing such diatribe. 

Just say your opinion and move on. You aren't the developer and you aren't an authority here. There's no need for you to constantly battle every other person on every other thread. 

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

Your argument is that complete balance is impossible and everyone and their reasons to play other classes given through feedback is automatically incorrect. 

No, that's not even close. I don't even know what you are talking about when you say 'complete' balance. NO one should think that's achievable ... so I have no idea what you are accusing me of here that wouldn't be applicable to EVERY REASONABLE PLAYER EVER! 

The fact is that if people want the choices to play complex builds and be rewarded with their good outputs, they have them ... they exist. They didn't go away. The satisfaction those people derive from playing complex builds isn't diminished if they are in fact, being true to themselves about why they play those complex builds. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Animism.7530]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's not even close. 

Fine - then you said what you want to say, and I said what I want to say. 

Don't bother trying to sum it up further and just continue writing snarky comments all over the forums.

 

We aren't developers, moderators or journalists; this is a place for feedback by players to the developers. 

Neither of our comments here are particularly relevant and the only reason I comment directly to you is out of a feeling that I understand and need to directly combat what you do on the forums constantly; as you are subtly attacking people on here. 


... Aand you edited your post. Let's just leave it. Hopefully a mod sees this and removes it all; seeing my point. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Animism.7530

[zeyeti.8347]

Anyway we will look in 2 weeks whats in the devs mind for balance , they said mech was again in their spot , and i doubt they will up it , seem to be a nerf again , wonder why ....

And Obtena you seem to really not get the point , neither i get your point to with the same sentence you bring on on every post about balance "theses HI build still exist , they never dissapeared " , no  they didnt dissapeared they are still there , but didnt get any change for a long time and now they are there ... lingering in mold and dust , for ppl like me they dissapeared , i personnaly doenst care about a complex build who has no range option to battle a boss who need sometimes to be ranged , that build for me doesnt exist it's my mind and you can think how you want , a build like that doenst exist forme  , have your feelings , i have mine , you dont have to say to us how to think , that this build or this mindset is irrelevant , we make our own choices and who are you to say that our mindset is biased , if i think a build is crap -> this build is crap for me , if someone wants to play it , well have it his way , the fact is i am just asking for something about ele , you can't deny this classes has more flaws than any other classes , just look the way alacrity works on tempest , just look the way quickness work on catalyst ... now look at how it works on mech ? i see flaws , i see perfection ... overpowered ... and complete unbalance (generate alac from your AA , and mech pulsing barrier every 3secs for 2 secs of alacrity ... with 0 players input ...) , i look at ele traits , gameplay , etc , i look at mech -> choice made after 1sec watching .

And , yes i tell ppl to not play ele , cause the class is weak , even more for beginners , i already told some ppl played ele and thought of the basic mage class with long ranged stuff , poor guys .... they switched to another one and even in open world it's day and light , ....this class have flaws that need to be adressed , mech is overplayed -> it needs a look and know why it is so much played .

And i am up to discuss weakness and "adavantages" (barely see one) playing ele in regards to other classes . i have 5k hours on my ele , tryed every spec , every role possible i can tell the flaws .

Edited October 31, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[roederich.2716]

mechanist dont need a "nerf" it needs a complete rework

11111 1200 range preasure in wvw and pvp while this tanky mech is coming towards you with silly designed bursts...

engy got already 2 charge rocket boots so why WHY WHY WHY WHY TELL ME kittenING WHY!!!!! does a ENGINEER need a 1200 RANGE SHADOW STEP on top of that??????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!  ?????????  ENGINEER with SHADOW STEP????

the designer who made the mech said "i think its acutally fun to play".

JESUS!!! that guy designed an espec and obviously did not spend a single thought on how it is to play against this.

wvw is by now a projectile cloud war for SMC and ogre watch solely. sniper everywhere. nice fight culture we got now.

 

 

[zeyeti.8347]

For those who think we are making things up , even teapot admitted mech is OP in his own way and completely obscur the other specs , specter was indeed a good example , locked into 3 wells uses for alac uptime , while mech do it afk and has all his boons blend into your bot with 0 player input. Not even talking about pew pew mech , it's about supp mech here , who is also OP , kitten .... we really luv...hate mechs .

Edited October 31, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Kuma.1503]

3 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

For those who think we are making things up , even teapot admitted mech is OP in his own way and completely obscur the other specs , specter was indeed a good example , locked into 3 wells uses for alac uptime , while mech do it afk and has all his boons blend into your bot with 0 player input. Not even talking about pew pew mech , it's about supp mech here , who is also OP , kitten .... we really luv...hate mechs .

The entire premise of that video is the same thing I've been saying for ages. 

Builds that force you to spam your skills off CD are badly designed. There's very little benefit to designing a build like this. 

 

The four main points are:

• It does not take skill to spam buttons off CD
• It makes a build less flexible and forces you to "waste" your utility. 
• It's not fun being forced to spam your skills off CD
• Builds with this flaw are inferior to builds without this flaw. 

HAM, FB, and Alacrigade are all well designed supports because they have the ability to play reactively. Instead of investing all of their utilities towards maintaining 1 boon, they have freedom to use those utilities skillfully and reactively. 

He goes further to say that, this reactive use of skills is good for the game because that's where the true skill of the game lies. It takes awareness, knowledge, good timing, and resource management.

Builds like Quick Scrapper and Specter technically have high APM requirements because of the skill spam, but they do not necessarily take more skill to play because you aren't reacting to anything or using your buttons intelligently. People don't like playing quick scrapper or heal specter as much as HAM and FB because of this flaw. 

 

He states that, HAM actually takes a lot of skill to play because  of this reactive element, it would be better to bring other classes up by allowing them also use their skill reactively.

Bringing others up means we promote skillful gameplay, good skill timing, and reactive gameplay. Bringing Mech and FB down to the level of scrapper, specter, druid, ect. means we promote mindless spam. 

The only real benefit of nerfing them in that way is that it reduces powercreep. 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[zeyeti.8347]

13 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The entire premise of that video is the same thing I've been saying for ages. 

Builds that force you to spam your skills off CD are badly designed. There's very little benefit to designing a build like this. 

 

The four main points are:

• It does not take skill to spam buttons off CD
• It makes a build less flexible and forces you to "waste" your utility. 
• It's not fun being forced to spam your skills off CD
• Builds with this flaw are inferior to builds without this flaw. 

HAM, FB, and Alacrigade are all well designed supports because they have the ability to play reactively. Instead of investing all of their utilities towards maintaining 1 boon, they have freedom to use those utilities skillfully and reactively. 

He goes further to say that, this reactive use of skills is good for the game because that's where the true skill of the game lies. It takes awareness, knowledge, good timing, and resource management.

Builds like Quick Scrapper and Specter technically have high APM requirements because of the skill spam, but they do not necessarily take more skill to play because you aren't reacting to anything or using your buttons intelligently. People don't like playing quick scrapper or heal specter as much as HAM and FB because of this flaw. 

 

He states that, HAM actually takes a lot of skill to play because  of this reactive element, it would be better to bring other classes up by allowing them also use their skill reactively.

Bringing others up means we promote skillful gameplay, good skill timing, and reactive gameplay. Bringing Mech and FB down to the level of scrapper, specter, druid, ect. means we promote mindless spam. 

The only real benefit of nerfing them in that way is that it reduces powercreep. 

 

Promote skillfull gameplay, nothing else to say ! One simple way to get rid off the problem about the classes you mentionned up (scrappy , specter ) is to simply increase the boon uptime of the main boon they generate , allowing specter to use the well for stab when it is needed and not to upkeep alac , and scrapper to maybe take another damage utility , or use the explosiv gyro when we actually need cc or use the def. gyro when ppl are taking damage.

Edited October 31, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Alcatraznc.3869]

3 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

For those who think we are making things up , even teapot admitted mech is OP in his own way and completely obscur the other specs , specter was indeed a good example , locked into 3 wells uses for alac uptime , while mech do it afk and has all his boons blend into your bot with 0 player input. Not even talking about pew pew mech , it's about supp mech here , who is also OP , kitten .... we really luv...hate mechs .

 

Except he said at one point that Mech works very well because it doesnt have to spam its skill to grant alacrity, therefore you can actually use the skill you pick for their true utility whether it's damage CC or boons. 

If anything what Anet should understand from this video is that support spec needs a rework so that you take a skill for its utility and not because if I combine this skill with this low CD with this trait I can maintain my boon.

[zeyeti.8347]

1 minute ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Except he said at one point that Mech works very well because it doesnt have to spam its skill to grant alacrity, therefore you can actually use the skill you pick for their true utility whether it's damage CC or boons. 

If anything what Anet should understand from this video is that support spec needs a rework so that you take a skill for its utility and not because if I combine this skill with this low CD with this trait I can maintain my boon.

indeed , all the boons comes from the bot , passiv and active skills , so they don't take a spot in your utility skills , allowing mech to be super versatile , just like firebrand who has 2 utiltys and elite free spot to choose , i hope the balance in few weeks will really take this in consideration

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Promote skillfull gameplay, nothing else to say ! One simple way to get rid off the problem about the classes you mentionned up (scrappy , specter ) is to simply increase the boon uptime of the main boon they generate , allowing specter to use the well for stab when it is needed and not to upkeep alac , and scrapper to maybe take another damage utility , or use the explosiv gyro when we actually need cc or use the def. gyro when ppl are taking damage.

Increasing boon uptime helps, but doesn't necessarily solve the issue. 

For an example of why that is the case, look at quickness Warrior. They can burst out 12+ seconds of quickness at once with one skill and 0% boon duration.  That lets them use their other skills reactively, which is good. 

But that quickness is tied to their stability. Meaning they still have to burn their stability off CD, which is a very powerful effect to be wasting. 

This is my own observation, but quickness generation works best when it isn't tied to important resources like stability, aegis, healing, or crowd control. (Mech gets away with it on Crisis Zone because they don't need it to maintain alac.)

It works best when tied to to other offensive boons like might and fury. That's how it works with Mantra of Potence and Barrier Burst. 

 

Warrior also give a LOT of their quickness in one go. Which is fine when everyone is always stacked together in a ball, but causes problems when players are periodically spreading out. FB and Mech give out little frequent bursts of boons, so if someone misses an application it's no big deal. 

If you give all of your boons in one go, missing one or two people is a lot more punishing. 

Things get more nuanced from here, but that's beyond the scope of one response.

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Kuma.1503
I did not have a stroke. My spelling is just ungodly bad today.

[Frayze.4620]

11 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

the fact is i am just asking for something about ele , you can't deny this classes has more flaws than any other classes , just look the way alacrity works on tempest , just look the way quickness work on catalyst ... now look at how it works on mech ? i see flaws , i see perfection ...

So...the way that alac works on mech is, in your own words, perfection. So let's say that the devs give ele a one-button-press alac giving utility skill. Will you then decide to NOT play it because 'OMG ele noob class with 1 button alac' ? You can't have it both ways. Anet have stated that Li builds WILL exist, whether you like it or not. So...do you want ele to be able to do the same with a much more complex rotation (which it absolutely can) or do you want ele to be able to be able to do the same, but in a much easier way (which would by its very nature reduce the complexity of playing it).

 

I get the feeling that what you want isn't either of those two. What you want is for mech to be able to do nothing but mediocre damage. That's it. Oh, but at the same time please make ele much easier and yet be top dps.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/31/2022 at 12:48 PM, Frayze.4620 said:

Yes. PRE nerf. It has been nerfed, quite rightly I agree. Yet even with that nerf, which increases the gap between those with an easier rotation and those with a harder one, it apparently still isn’t enough. It must be nerfed more and more. So my repeated question is…until when? Until a set percentage of “hardcore” players are 100% sure that a mech player can never even attempt to “beat” them on dps? Until it puts out so little damage that it literally isn’t viable anywhere except open world? Where’s the magic line that these “elites “ will be happy with?

There's a reason I specified 'pre nerf'. My personal jury is still out on where it sits at the moment. 34k is about what I would have guesstimated for an easy to play DPS build with rifle mech's advantages, so I'd personally want more data before pushing for more nerfs. I'm certainly not noticing squads that are more than half mechanists these days.

I suspect that what ArenaNet might be looking at this month will be comparing alacmech with other alacrity options.

On 10/31/2022 at 1:04 PM, Frayze.4620 said:

Let me give my own opinion as to where another disconnect is. People massively overestimate their own skill level. They do not want to assume they stuck, or even need to improve. How many times, whether it be in a raid boss, or in pvp or in WvW, have you seen someone blaming another for something which is obviously their own kitten fault?

 

 Yes, the way build in your example is easier to do does with. That’s the point really isn’t it. Are you telling me then that I, as a slightly-above-average player, could go into a raid on mech and challenge for top dps with snowcrows? Or any other high level raiding guild? I doubt it very very much. They fight the same bosses we do, and so if their melee range dps can do more damage than a mech player, so can you. 

Except that we saw what the top players were doing. The benchmarks are set by top players using optimal gear and food. Rifle mechanist was only one or two hundred DPS behind weaver. It has a simple enough rotation that it wouldn't take many players too much effort to get close to that DPS, gear deficiencies notwithstanding. You can't say that for weaver. Even virtuoso needs a bit more functional knowledge than pressing your damage skills on recharge in order to maximise its DPS.

We saw this with the HTCM race. The participating guilds were stacking mechanists because even with the top players in the game, mechanist was better for the 'just do DPS' roles than anything else at the time. If that was the case with the best players, the gap is going to be even larger with anyone else, regardless of how accurate their self-appraisal of their skill might be.

The main point I was making, however, was rebutting the argument that the existence of one build doesn't affect your ability to learn and play another. Because there'll be some point at which you're going to become aware that another build is around that can match what your build can do even if played perfectly, is easier to play, and less affected by mechanics. And at that point, most people will have some pressure, even if it's purely internal, to conform to playing the build that will give their group the highest chance of success. Especially if their group is one that's still running with a low margin for error.

20 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Ok then you shouldnt be complaining about Mechanist because its damage is below a lot of DPS class. Especially now after the nerf

 

You talk about being 1200 range away but not once have I seen a Mechanist stand 1200 away from the group because he would be called out for that but also because that is just a big DPS loss. Being able to do some mechanic while maintaining DPS is a strenght sure. Saying you can just stay 1200 away from the fight is true but you wont reach the high number youre talking about because you have 0 boons. 

 

Also as I said in another topic people love discrediting benchmark number because its performed on a stationary golem. Thats fine by me but then why do you use the same benchmark as a reason to show Mechanist DPS is high ?  The answer is simple people just use the benchmark golem when it fits their narrative. 

Rifle mechanist benchmark isn't affected heavily by using a moving golem. Some of the mech's shots miss, some don't get fired in the first place because the mech is moving to keep up, but it's not a huge difference. Unlike builds that rely on the enemy remaining in fields and lose a lot of damage if the enemy moves out.

[zeyeti.8347]

5 hours ago, Frayze.4620 said:

So...the way that alac works on mech is, in your own words, perfection. So let's say that the devs give ele a one-button-press alac giving utility skill. Will you then decide to NOT play it because 'OMG ele noob class with 1 button alac' ? You can't have it both ways. Anet have stated that Li builds WILL exist, whether you like it or not. So...do you want ele to be able to do the same with a much more complex rotation (which it absolutely can) or do you want ele to be able to be able to do the same, but in a much easier way (which would by its very nature reduce the complexity of playing it).

 

I get the feeling that what you want isn't either of those two. What you want is for mech to be able to do nothing but mediocre damage. That's it. Oh, but at the same time please make ele much easier and yet be top dps.

No , the way it works on mech is in a constant flux of alac , it is only 1-2 secs of alac max per pulse , but it applies so many times that it never stop , on ele you have to wait for your overload to be ready , it's on a 5 sec cd , then you have to wait your overload to finish , it's a 4 to 2 sec cast (without or with quickness) and very sensitive to damage cause no dodge allowed , and you cant use aftershock for aegis while overloading (yes you can use it before , but still , this skill is on 30 sec cooldown , you have to attune way more than that timing) .

If the ele does it with more complex , more skillfull way , well it need to be rewarded , and i see no reward at all , all seem cluncky to me , the only good point is strongs heals , but they are not constant and lack availibility , where druid , mech , firebrand have maybe less strong heals , but they are way more available than those from ele (and iam not sure , druid has maybe stronger heals now , in avatar if you spam 1 and 2 you heal like madman for 15 secs ). If you have a skill healing very well but can't use it only 25% of the time , due to attune mechanic and is locked behind an attunement you use for boon uptime (soothing water here ) his availibilty will only be defined by chance ... , and the other have skill 50% less efficient but available all the time , so it is stronger than the previous one (from the ele).

The changes on tempest heal for example , should allow him to pulse alac while overloading , or blend alac with auras (not necerly when aura on allys , but why not when you have an aura allies in a x range receive x sec of alac) make the boons trough overloads more ranged (not the area of damage from the overlaod , the boon apllication area , those are on a 180 range ... thats very little , mech give alac with a 600 range skill , and apply barriers in a 360 range , thats double the area of the ele ....) , give ele a way to choose bastion of elements and alacrity generator both , that will also open a path fro dps/alac tempest with "transcendent tempest" and allow a more constant "on demand" healing , soothing water is also a boring thing to use , attuning to water for the only purpose to refresh this unqiue boon , and still this thing is weird , it's a 10-7 sec duration and refresh to 10 sec every 3 secs ... what ? i have to put my mouse on the boon , see when it is at 10 sec and go out of water attunement that precise moment , talk about cluncky ...

[zeyeti.8347]

7 hours ago, Frayze.4620 said:

I get the feeling that what you want isn't either of those two. What you want is for mech to be able to do nothing but mediocre damage. That's it. Oh, but at the same time please make ele much easier and yet be top dps.

Just tell me when i said mech need to be nerfed to the ground , i am pointing out his strong points , neither i asked ele to be top dps , i asked for a decent healtemp. And for the mech the damage should be proportional of the players input , if you are almost afk it's not normal hitting a 25-28k bench.

The healmech has flaws too , i know , not super strong heals (but heals available 100% of the time) , and lack long ranged heals ... but thats all ... . dont tell me tempest has a lot of long ranged skills , if you play dagger or scepter / warhorn it's pretty underwhelming , and playing with staff really handicap your boon generation not telling the non existence of barrier generator (but thats ok , ele dont need everything , but it need a positive change) .

the vidéo is talking about having skills that need you to press off cooldown to maintain a specific boon , ele has the same flaws , you turn around attunements/overloads to maintain boons , strapping off the chance to attune to a specific attunement or overload for a specific situations (ex: attune to earth for stab , but attune to earth to maintain prot. , aftershock for prot. uptime , but stab wasted , going water to refresh soothing water effect but burning healing ripple heals when it is not needed , overlaoding just for alac uptime ...) 

Edited November 1, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[zeyeti.8347]

11 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Increasing boon uptime helps, but doesn't necessarily solve the issue. 

For an example of why that is the case, look at quickness Warrior. They can burst out 12+ seconds of quickness at once with one skill and 0% boon duration.  That lets them use their other skills reactively, which is good. 

But that quickness is tied to their stability. Meaning they still have to burn their stability off CD, which is a very powerful effect to be wasting. 

This is my own observation, but quickness generation works best when it isn't tied to important resources like stability, aegis, healing, or crowd control. (Mech gets away with it on Crisis Zone because they don't need it to maintain alac.)

It works best when tied to to other offensive boons like might and fury. That's how it works with Mantra of Potence and Barrier Burst. 

 

Warrior also give a LOT of their quickness in one go. Which is fine when everyone is always stacked together in a ball, but causes problems when players are periodically spreading out. FB and Mech give out little frequent bursts of boons, so if someone misses an application it's no big deal. 

If you give all of your boons in one go, missing one or two people is a lot more punishing. 

Things get more nuanced from here, but that's beyond the scope of one response.

 

Problem with warrior is you need two banners to do that , so it really hurt your damage , if you want to play alacmechdps you can go full offensiv on your utilitys , taking signets who passively increase your stats . it's the mechanic off the class who generate alac not ultilty skills.

A good thing to increase or rework on warrior is "martial candence" , making it in a certain way it can provide quickness to a subgroup in a larger extend, but there again warrior is gonna fall into the catalyst controversial , stacking up to  4 skilled bladesworn with that could simply generate quickness with 0 trade offs.

It's indeed very hard to balance .

Edited November 1, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[zeyeti.8347]

8 hours ago, Frayze.4620 said:

do you want ele to be able to do the same with a much more complex rotation (which it absolutely can)

I would happily debate with you on that , like i said in a previous post , just tell me tempest do the same as healmech with the same efficiency , i have numbers and ratio in mind ...

[Frayze.4620]

I didn’t say anything about the same efficiency. I said it can do the same with a much more complex rotation.

[zeyeti.8347]

19 minutes ago, Frayze.4620 said:

I didn’t say anything about the same efficiency. I said it can do the same with a much more complex rotation.

oke so you can maintain fury , prot. , vigor , régéneration , 25 might , swiftness , alacrity , give stab and aegis on demand while procing barrier (on your own !) at the same time ? while healing , sorry i forgot 🙂

yes yes take your time on the raid golem and searching onto the wiki i am on holydays i have all the time i want . just you know i want proof not just i did that and that , as my profil says below , i trust what i see , theory or guessing is like politicians talking brassing some air to me

Edited November 1, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Frayze.4620]

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Catalyst_-_Boon_Support_Healer
Quickness, fury,  25 might, protection , resolution, swiftness, regeneration as well as some Vigor and resistance.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Boon_Support_Healer
 

Perma alac, fury, might, swiftness, protection and regeneration as well as high uptime of Vigor.

Two builds for ele that offer both healing as well as a large amount of supportive boons. Are they exactly the same boons, no, are they all very much desired by any raiding group, yes. 
You are absolutely right about the barrier though, and this is something that personally frustrates me as it leaves little build diversity between HAM and dps/alac builds.

 So where’s your 34k benchmark at 1200 range pressing two to three buttons??

 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Frayze.4620

[zeyeti.8347]

41 minutes ago, Frayze.4620 said:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Catalyst_-_Boon_Support_Healer
 

This variant of Catalyst can provide https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/1/1a/Quickness.webp/24px-Quickness.webp.png Quickness, https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/9/9f/Fury.webp/24px-Fury.webp.pngFury, 25 stacks of https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/c/cb/Might.webp/24px-Might.webp.png Might, https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/4/4b/Protection.webp/24px-Protection.webp.png Protection, https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/7/73/Resolution.webp/24px-Resolution.webp.pngResolution, https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/1/17/Swiftness.webp/24px-Swiftness.webp.png Swiftness and https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/4/46/Regeneration.webp/24px-Regeneration.webp.png Regeneration to their subgroup. It can also provide a small amount of https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/3/3f/Vigor.webp/24px-Vigor.webp.png Vigorand https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/c/c3/Resistance.webp/24px-Resistance.webp.png Resistance.

 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Boon_Support_Healer

Tempest is capable of providing permanent uptime of https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/c/c4/Alacrity.webp/24px-Alacrity.webp.pngAlacrity, https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/9/9f/Fury.webp/24px-Fury.webp.png Fury, https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/c/cb/Might.webp/24px-Might.webp.png Might, https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/4/4b/Protection.webp/24px-Protection.webp.png Protection, https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/4/46/Regeneration.webp/24px-Regeneration.webp.pngRegeneration, https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/1/17/Swiftness.webp/24px-Swiftness.webp.png Swiftness and high https://metabattle.com/wiki/images/thumb/3/3f/Vigor.webp/24px-Vigor.webp.png Vigor on their subgroup, and offering more healing than Druid - Boon Support Healer.

 

Two builds for ele that offer both healing as well as a large amount of supportive boons. Are they exactly the same boons, no, are they all very much desired by any raiding group, yes. 
You are absolutely right about the barrier though, and this is something that personally frustrates me as it leaves little build diversity between HAM and dps/alac builds.

 

 

Ok see my point , i dont want specifically the mech to be nerfed , but ele need an overhaul to be able to compete , actually there is 0 benefit from taking ele over mech , and you can see it in endgame content in wich , there is almost 0 elementalist being played. And not only ele : thief , DH , Holosmith , ... and many others need a good rework/buffs.

Aslo the build you point ou with dagger has very little heals , dagger 2 is uber weak in term of healing (feels like a sub version on a cd from medkit AA) and you have to rely on utilitys for healing  (with the amazing 60 sec cd ice bow .... not to mention you need to drop it when some boons start fading away ...) you have warhorn 4 and 5 , blast 3 in warhorn 5 but again that cluncky adn has little range

same goes for the catalyst meta battle : what are your healing option out of water ? the cluncky water greater elemental , who goes where he want with no option to call it back ? (pointing out mech's mecha) , ice bow again ? water signet ? underwhelming in comparison off a healmech , druid or firebrand , you dont ask yourself why you never see those build played , i've tryed them in real situation , and i can tell the flaws... you just droping some builds you found without even trying them , i can do that too ... but i agree on one thing being afk with staff and just AA must be one of the top healing skills of the game ... sadly ...

Fact is ele is not played while it can (in theory) do the same role compression as engi :

- very difficult dps : weaver / holosmith

- dps quickness : catalyst / scrapper 

- Heal or dps alac : tempest / mech

But oen is not played at all and one is played at 27% in endgame . flaws.

Sorry if you can feel like i am attacking you , but that really not what i ment to do , i am so pissed that ele has 0 loves in this game , that the typical mage class is in fact an underwhgelming brawler , a cheap healer , and a very punishing dps class , with 0 benefit.

Edited November 1, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Frayze.4620]

Man, I understand that you are frustrated, I understand the reasons behind it, but try to take some of the emotion out of the picture and we will start to see that the following are true, objective facts.

 

1-power mech, whilst still a very powerful low intensity build doesn’t do anywhere near the damage you either think or say it does. It CAN do that amount of damage, but not when using a low intensity rotation and not at 1200 range.

2- both mech and ele have some fantastic build diversity, with a number of different roles open to them in multiple game modes.

3-the builds I linked you DO do what you asked for. They offer similar performance and boon output to HAM. Mech also relies mostly on being in medkit for heals in the same way ele does water. Yes you have a few other skills to use, but medkit is your staple.

4- mech is still seemingly preferred by the community. Have you considered the possibility that the vast majority of players simply want an easier play style? Not all, but the majority. They would rather have a class where they can press a few, well defined Buttons that do exactly what they say, rather than having to press 10 in a set order for a similar result? Even if pressing ten means they got a bit better result, they just want an easy life?  Whilst I can’t prove it at all, I do feel that this is very likely true.

 

 Whilst the following aren’t objective facts, I feel that they are widely accepted by the community at large and so we can also consider them to be “true “ for the sake of this conversation.

 

1-ele is in a bit of a bad spot at the moment. It needs a lot of love, not just in terms of number tweaking, but in terms of both its utility skills and its traits.

2-ele has always been a complex class to play well, however that has been (for the more invested players such as those coming to forums to discuss the game and their class) one of the attractions of it. It’s difficult to play but the rewards are worth it. Right now it is still difficult to play but the rewards aren’t worth it. This is linked directly to the first point that is that ele needs love.

3-mech pre-nerf was overturned. Yep, I would agree with this as well and I think the lack of QQ’ing about that nerf shows that the majority of mech players also felt that nerf was both justified and reasonable.

 

I just feel that you are going about this the wrong way.  Yes, mech design is great, I’m not going to argue with that. It shows modern thinking, allows for reactive gameplay and is easy for beginners or those who don’t want complex rotations to pick up and master. But, as an ele main, why come in here and ask for Anet to nerf mech to the state of ele, which by your own comments is not fun, badly designed, ineffective and overly complex. Why aren’t you in the ele forums posting this in a more constructive “hey Anet, look at these discrepancies?? What the hell is going on with Ele?”

 We’ve seen recently a new willingness from Anet to listen to feedback from the player base. Rather than asking for others to be in the same purgatory as you and your ele main find yourself in, go tell them to bring your class up to the levels of fun and enjoyment that mech players are, in general, having with theirs. 

[poop.4183]

Yes sole problem is medkit can be used 100% of the time while water attunement is locked behind a cooldown , healing availibility vs healing power ,what he wants to point out is for some reason ele is not played at all , i have the same feelings , and it is partially because the class is old and difficult to play .

Also no need to nerf mech further , better to increase the other class efficiency . Ele have a super variety of build to be played , great ... why is no one playing it then , or so few ... i ve tryed it too , iam not in teh endgame meta , ... but even in OW i played ele , reminded being wrecked when i entered the first time HOT , now i tried the rifle mech , the game feel like animal crossing instead of a dark souls game ...

Edited November 1, 2022 by poop.4183

[Frayze.4620]

7 minutes ago, poop.4183 said:

Yes sole problem is medkit can be used 100% of the time while water attunement is locked behind a cooldown 

Yes, I know. Firstly, I would answer that, depending on build (I think? I’m not an ele player so if I make a mistake here it is genuine ignorance not an attempt to distort any facts) I believe you can also cleanse in fire and provide protective boons/barrier in earth as well? Secondly, again, if this breaks Ele in some fundamental manner, ask for changes to ele rather than saying “ hey, ele sucks because xyz, we want mech to suck in the same way”.

 Edit-I see you just edited your above post which reflects what I have said in mine. Yes, let’s give ele and other underperforming or un-fun specs some love rather than bringing down specs that are.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Frayze.4620

[zeyeti.8347]

Yes you can clean condi in fire , but thats the only trait that has a purpose as healer ... the other trait are for dps ... and no barrier playing earth is only for you ... and what you are saying is what i am asking for , the problem i have with the mech is that it seems to take all the attention from anet , like saying : "omg the AA rifle was doing less damage than the skill 1 from grenades , thats not what we intended" , ... or "there is a bug with the AA so we reduced the cast time of it from a 1/4 sec instead of going up 1/4 sec , ..." omg , anet forgot there are non mech players ? 

And sorry to say you that but i was an ele main i know the class traits by heart , i tried every possible way to play the class , and actaully it is underwhelming in any kind of gameplay , efficiency wise ofc. If you dont play the class you can't see the flaws , try your metabattle builds in endgame content , and prepare to cry... it works if you play with amazing good players who dont need healing at all , but try it with  average players , and prepare to read "wtf are you doing healer .. , where are the heals ? "... and blabla..  theory vs reality , and reality hurts !

Edited November 1, 2022 by zeyeti.8347