Tempest new to t4 fractals: need tips and reassurance

[Harfang.1507]

I have been slowly progressing through fractals through PUGs on my tempest and last night, for the first time, I could see the t4 fractal listings in the LFG tool. I admit, I got a little intimidated. It looked like strike listings, but for 5-people groups.

So far, I had been doing ok on T3's. I play a fresh air build with Berserker gear, but my dps has been . . . lackluster. Not to a point I feel like a burden to my parties, but making me apprehensive of pulling my weight adequately on T4 PUGs. There are three options I am considering, from most to least appealing:

1. Keeping course as a fresh air tempest. Tips are welcome.
2. Switch my gear to condition or support and learn that. I can probably afford it, but I am reluctant to bounce around looking for a new niche.
3. Switch to catalyst with more or less the same gear. I have tried it in the open world and found it was so much of a headache compared to tempest.

Constructive input welcome.

[Infusion.7149]

Switch to condi tempest or play alac tempest (a heal variant if playing with cQB/quick harbinger/quick scrapper , otherwise a DPS condi or power variant). There's not much reason to play power tempest when the majority of things are not large hitbox (save for Nightmare fractal more or less). A major issue with power tempest is the hitbox variance , might reliance for Power Overwhelming, but also if you don't have a boon rip person on NPNG (No Pain No Gain) instabilities.

I don't advise going for catalyst because Arenanet has done nothing but nerf it in the past. It isn't forgiving especially in fractals. It also has difficulty in execution unless you are quite experienced with it (partly due to Empowered Empowerment, but also due to orbs dropping) whereas condi tempest is more or less picked up by even newer players and has built in advantages such as protection uptime (with 40% damage reduction), lower incoming damage with earth attunement up, etc. Plus catalyst doesn't heal other people while using hammer, tempest can regardless of weapon via overload water or "Wash the Pain Away" in any situation you need to. Tempest also puts out might and protection easily.

To top it all off tempest is currently in vogue in PVP and WVW so it is worth becoming more experienced with it. Catalyst was just nerfed in PVP and more specialized in WVW using a staff.

If you want easier than that you can look to MrMystic's version

or this slightly older version from Mukluk

Another example

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Noodle Ant.1605]

reading the op and i cant help but assume that youre playing fresh air scepter, which i personally deem as playable by only rotation gods. its ok to use in openworld since lightning orb/overload air will generally destroy most trash mobs with ease, but trying to maintain decent sustained dps requires a whole lot more "rotational skill" to a point where id say its impractical and actually a trap to suggest to any random player to play (outside of open world). hitbox size is a factor that does affect its performance, but is largely irrelevant as t4 (no cm) pugs generally arent that impressive to point where there are times you can even top dps with builds that only bench 26-27k

i found that altering the build (e.g. removing all conjures, switching scepter for dagger, altering rotation, etc...) dramatically lowered the "rotational skill" required down to a far more practical level and it performed better for that reason despite probably having a worse optimal benchmark

the key point to take away is just to find another build thats not fresh air scepter (because its honestly hard to play). power hammer catalyst is the same and id also advise against playing that as well unless you really want to. you could try FA dagger/BttH staff tempest, sword/staff weaver, or staff catalyst, but it kind of sucks that no one bothers making guides for these alternative builds that isnt also filled with impractical rotational garbage (e.g. conjures) and im "not qualified" to make them myself (they all work fine although obviously not meta, from my exp). so its probably best if you switch over to condi because theres working guides for that and you can work from those rather than from my unproofed suggestions

[tykel.6073]

1 hour ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

reading the op and i cant help but assume that youre playing fresh air scepter, which i personally deem as playable by only rotation gods. its ok to use in openworld since lightning orb/overload air will generally destroy most trash mobs with ease, but trying to maintain decent sustained dps requires a whole lot more "rotational skill" to a point where id say its impractical and actually a trap to suggest to any random player to play (outside of open world). hitbox size is a factor that does affect its performance, but is largely irrelevant as t4 (no cm) pugs generally arent that impressive to point where there are times you can even top dps with builds that only bench 26-27k

i found that altering the build (e.g. removing all conjures, switching scepter for dagger, altering rotation, etc...) dramatically lowered the "rotational skill" required down to a far more practical level and it performed better for that reason despite probably having a worse optimal benchmark

the key point to take away is just to find another build thats not fresh air scepter (because its honestly hard to play). power hammer catalyst is the same and id also advise against playing that as well unless you really want to. you could try FA dagger/BttH staff tempest, sword/staff weaver, or staff catalyst, but it kind of sucks that no one bothers making guides for these alternative builds that isnt also filled with impractical rotational garbage (e.g. conjures) and im "not qualified" to make them myself (they all work fine although obviously not meta, from my exp). so its probably best if you switch over to condi because theres working guides for that and you can work from those rather than from my unproofed suggestions

Yeah I’d agree with this. Power dagger main hand was buffed enough imo that it’s actually not that bad to use at this point. I certainly prefer it. 
 

as for staff I can try it out some when I get home to see if I can put together a build for op if they like it but the main issue with any staff build is just how bad air attunement is for staff. It’s so outdated I just don’t understand how it’s been left as it is.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

24 minutes ago, tykel.6073 said:

Power dagger main hand was buffed enough imo that it’s actually not that bad to use at this point.

considering that most of the dmg still comes from overload air/lightning orb, MH dagger wasnt buffed all that much tbh 🙃 but yeah it worked before for me so i dont see why i shoudnt work now

24 minutes ago, tykel.6073 said:

as for staff I can try it out some when I get home to see if I can put together a build for op if they like it but the main issue with any staff build is just how bad air attunement is for staff. It’s so outdated I just don’t understand how it’s been left as it is.

air is honestly very niche and its only useable under certain conditions (i.e. fresh air tempest, sword because its legit strong). otherwise you maybe only cast 1-2 skills and leave. air in scepter is pretty garbage in (endgame) pve, but its saved by conjures and overload air. you just press hammer #2 and #5 and leave on catalyst, sustained dmg on air is not great either. similarly for staff, you skip most of air by entering it casting meteor shower, then you cast lightning surge before overloading/switching out (to earth which aa is amusingly beefy now)

in the worst case scenario, thanks to recent buffs you can get very far just sitting in fire on staff spamming mostly just fireball and lava font (and utility skills). imo it makes staff fairly easy to learn since its mostly about returning to fire and figuring out how to maintain/increase dmg when you switch out

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

15 hours ago, Harfang.1507 said:

I have been slowly progressing through fractals through PUGs on my tempest and last night, for the first time, I could see the t4 fractal listings in the LFG tool. I admit, I got a little intimidated. It looked like strike listings, but for 5-people groups.

So far, I had been doing ok on T3's. I play a fresh air build with Berserker gear, but my dps has been . . . lackluster. Not to a point I feel like a burden to my parties, but making me apprehensive of pulling my weight adequately on T4 PUGs. There are three options I am considering, from most to least appealing:

1. Keeping course as a fresh air tempest. Tips are welcome.
2. Switch my gear to condition or support and learn that. I can probably afford it, but I am reluctant to bounce around looking for a new niche.
3. Switch to catalyst with more or less the same gear. I have tried it in the open world and found it was so much of a headache compared to tempest.

Constructive input welcome.

For damage, play Weaver. Its the meta build for DPS, Tempest just doesn't have it.

 

Tempest is best played as a support, in fact its one of the strongest supports possible in the game since it brings permanent 25 Might, Fury, Swiftness, Regeneration, Protection, Vigor, and Alacrity, some Aegis and Stability with a group stunbreak, all the aura effects like -10% damage from ice aura or reflects from magnetic aura, and good heals, all while pushing out about 5k+ DPS when on Celestial or Harrier gear.

 

 Its best to have three builds on your character: Weaver (DPS), Catalyst (Quick.DPS), and Tempest (AlacHeal). Maybe take a damage build on Tempest so you can fill AlacDPS role, but that's about it.

 

In Fractals you generally want to fill all roles as needed by your party. Put the bulk of your AR (preferably all +11s) in your trinkets, which gets you 110 AR, with Celestial stats so they work with any build, and share them to all tabs.This allows you to be alot more flexible with the rest of your gear on different builds and only need +5 infusions or +9 infusions with less ascended pieces on each build.

 

You won't lose that much damage (or healing) this way and it gets you just enough survivability to get through every one shot mechanic instead of being a downstate meme.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[zeyeti.8347]

If my point of vew has any value , switch to firebrand or mech pew pew , ele is non existent in fractals , and there is a reason to it , sorry to say that , but thats my feeling.

47 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Tempest is best played as a support, in fact its one of the strongest supports possible in the game since it brings permanent 25 Might, Fury, Swiftness, Regeneration, Protection, Vigor, and Alacrity, some Aegis and Stability with a group stunbreak, all the aura effects like -10% damage from ice aura or reflects from magnetic aura, and good heals, all while pushing out about 5k+ DPS when on Celestial or Harrier gear.

Mech , druid and hfb do not agree on that point and the data here too https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Harfang.1507]

Thank you for the constructive feedback. I have not made up my mind yet, but from what I am seeing right now, I am leaning toward investing in a condition ascended armor set as a short- to mid-term objective, as suggested by @Infusion.7149. The videos you recommended would ease the transition. While @Mariyuuna.6508 makes good points imo, build diversity is more a stretch goal for the long term. Getting into raiding (as a revenant) is higher on that list, but that is a different project. Right now, my main drive is completing the Ad Infinitum collections. I only need some 650 fractal relics to be done with the third collection.

While I am aware that firebrand and mechanist are definitely meta, that is not something I am considering at all. I shall do fractals on my good ol' elementalist, or bust. Weaver? I want to love it, but it feels as bad or worse than catalyst.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Harfang.1507

[Infusion.7149]

Revenant is no longer meta since mechanist took hold unless you plan on playing as a token cDPS renegade or a pDPS vindicator. I have not seen people ask for power quickness herald and alacrity renegade while still usable isn't in high demand at all.

I feel weaver is okay if you play a ranged variant in general fractals, I don't feel sword weaver is fit for fractals in their current state unless you are able to count on your supports. Flux bombs and other instabilities have always been tough for sword weaver and if PUGing you can't rely on your supports too much. Fennec (the benchmarker) has a simplified condi weaver with a staff and I believe some content creators made a scepter weaver that just uses fire+earth attunement. That would still result in acquisition of condi gear though.

See

"I feel like the build is in a pretty good spot and in my opinion much easier than sword or dagger if you can manage BR well, since the rotation is very simple and both weave selves are identical. " - Fennec's staff weaver video

and the following scepter variants which require skill use for decent DPS as elementalist scepter isn't a high autoattack generally (I believe it comes in around 12K DPS on condi variants).
 

 

[soulknight.9620]

Just swap to sc/f condi weaver. Easy rotation, high dmg output (like literary im outdpsing mechs with it in t4+cms). Dont bother with weave self rotation, go for glyph of elementals. It takes a lot of complexity away and the dps falloff is not that high. 

Dont bother with tempest it will not perform aswell as a weaver no matter what people try to tell you. If u take a look at weaver traits you will notice it aswell. 

Catalyst can perform well, but it requires perfect ping and perfect rotation to get top dps. If you lack any of that you will underperform. 

As for staff condi weaver - it shines on large hitbox stationary bosses, but underperformes on standart hitboxes and moving bosses, so just stick to sc/f. 
The post above by Infusion.7149 contains rly good build from MrMystic. Just use that. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by soulknight.9620

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

kitten, it doesn't really give desire to put effort while you can just spam burning for 3-4k less dps.

[ATMAvatar.5749]

Honestly, unless (and perhaps even if) you're doing CMs, play what you like.  Even the T4 fractals aren't particularly difficult or DPS-sensitive.

[Axl.8924]

On 10/9/2022 at 3:15 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

considering that most of the dmg still comes from overload air/lightning orb, MH dagger wasnt buffed all that much tbh 🙃 but yeah it worked before for me so i dont see why i shoudnt work now

air is honestly very niche and its only useable under certain conditions (i.e. fresh air tempest, sword because its legit strong). otherwise you maybe only cast 1-2 skills and leave. air in scepter is pretty garbage in (endgame) pve, but its saved by conjures and overload air. you just press hammer #2 and #5 and leave on catalyst, sustained dmg on air is not great either. similarly for staff, you skip most of air by entering it casting meteor shower, then you cast lightning surge before overloading/switching out (to earth which aa is amusingly beefy now)

in the worst case scenario, thanks to recent buffs you can get very far just sitting in fire on staff spamming mostly just fireball and lava font (and utility skills). imo it makes staff fairly easy to learn since its mostly about returning to fire and figuring out how to maintain/increase dmg when you switch out

What about convergence? i remember that hitting hard unless i'm wrong.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

1 hour ago, Axl.8924 said:

What about convergence? i remember that hitting hard unless i'm wrong.

what i meant was that convergence is not really a key source of the builds damage. while the buff undeniably bumps up the builds dps a little, it barely accounts for more than a 1% overall increase. if there was any buff that "buffed it enough" then that wouldve been transcendent tempest and feel the burn buffs, not dagger

otherwise in daggers performance hasnt really changed in relation to scepter, and its more that people finally realised that they couldve just used it instead of snowcrows super-optimised rotation thats a little too hard for majority of us to do normally. now im wondering if people will eventually get around to figuring out staff... (or not?)

Edited October 12, 2022 by Noodle Ant.1605

[Axl.8924]

12 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

what i meant was that convergence is not really a key source of the builds damage. while the buff undeniably bumps up the builds dps a little, it barely accounts for more than a 1% overall increase. if there was any buff that "buffed it enough" then that wouldve been transcendent tempest and feel the burn buffs, not dagger
otherwise in daggers performance hasnt really changed in relation to scepter, and its more that people finally realised that they couldve just used it instead snowcrows super-optimised rotation thats a little too hard for majority of us to do normally. now im wondering if people will eventually get around to figuring out staff... (or not?)

Are we speaking strictly raid here or fractals? i've used  dagger and it didn't go that well and i was using convergence n other stuff.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

2 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

Are we speaking strictly raid here or fractals? i've used  dagger and it didn't go that well and i was using convergence n other stuff.

im speaking in general. also my focus isnt whether or not dagger performs "well", its how it performs (in general) compared to using scepter

because truth be told, im skeptical whenever i see a fresh air tempest of any flavour because theres a 97% chance that ill probably outdps them using something weird like a fire-camping staff core ele, which i know i can beat myself on with a fresh air tempest build. so in my eyes, discussions about fresh air/power tempest mostly comes down to players not really being knowledgable about how the class works more than the build being weak (though im not denying that it is a little)

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

7 hours ago, ATMAvatar.5749 said:

Honestly, unless (and perhaps even if) you're doing CMs, play what you like.  Even the T4 fractals aren't particularly difficult or DPS-sensitive.

When players say things like this I wonder if they're being carried. If your group is inexperienced or "brings whatever", the difficulty of the encounters does show and your efforts do fall apart. Those who think that doesn't happen are usually the ones getting carried by the better players in their party, especially the healer.

 

The difference between an exp group and an inexp group in T4s is like night an day., and in CMs if you have an inexp group you will wipe repeatedly until everyone leaves.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Axl.8924]

1 hour ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

im speaking in general. also my focus isnt whether or not dagger performs "well", its how it performs (in general) compared to using scepter

because truth be told, im skeptical whenever i see a fresh air tempest of any flavour because theres a 97% chance that ill probably outdps them using something weird like a fire-camping staff core ele, which i know i can beat myself on with a fresh air tempest build. so in my eyes, discussions about fresh air/power tempest mostly comes down to players not really being knowledgable about how the class works more than the build being weak (though im not denying that it is a little)

In the past fire/air tempest was king so i dunno really i don't play condi at all because in the past condi tempest wasn't viable.

[Harfang.1507]

54 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

When players say things like this I wonder if they're being carried. If your group is inexperienced or "brings whatever", the difficulty of the encounters does show and your efforts do fall apart. Those who think that doesn't happen are usually the ones getting carried by the better players in their party, especially the healer.

 

The difference between an exp group and an inexp group in T4s is like night an day., and in CMs if you have an inexp group you will wipe repeatedly until everyone leaves.

That's basically why I started this thread. I run arcdps and I know about where I stand. I do not really feel 'carried' so far, just barely keeping up. I might pass under the radar in a strike group, but not in a challenging fractal one.

I have invested in a condition armor set. I am sticking with sceptre/focus right now because that's what feels like the most manageable learning curve. I'll practice the build in open world and lower-tier fractals to get the hang of it before heading into T4s. I'll keep you posted.

[Harfang.1507]

Update. It's been three weeks and I have not had nearly as much opportunity to do fractals as I would have wanted to. Nevertheless, I can report that as long as we have a decent healer in the group, Mr. Mystic's Button Mash Tempest is performing adequately; thank you, @Infusion.7149 and the others. I have gone from barely keeping up in T3's to being competitive. In fact, I often come up on top in dps, though usually not outrageously so.

Still some 270 fractal relics to go . . .

[Infusion.7149]

Good job if you are outperforming people on condi tempest 👍