Dear ANet: Please Re-Work Arms UPDATED 01.21.23

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Cal Cohen.2358, @Josh Davis.7865, @Double Tap

 

Congratulations on a very solid re-work of the Defense trait line.  I've had a lot of fun playing with new varieties of warrior this past week!  

 

As you continue working on the Nov balance patch, I wanted to humbly suggest that Arms be next on the docket for Warrior.  A solid Arms re-work, along with changes to Sword and Mace, could provide significant expansion of builds/playstyles available to warrior.

 

Many of the ideas below have been borrowed or adapted from/inspired by the numerous contributors to this forum.  Shout-out to my Warrior brethren! #deephorsestance.

 

With no further ado:

 

Minor Traits:

Furious Burst:  Same as it is now; no changes.

 

Furious Strikes: Gain bonus adrenaline (2) on critical hit

 

Bloodlust:  Steal health whenever you inflict bleeding. (Life siphon dmg: 125/stack.  Life siphon healing: 100/stack)

 

[Alternative Take]:
Furious strikes: Inflict 1 stack of vuln (5s) on critical hit.  Gain bonus adrenaline (1) on critical hit.

Bloodlust:  Steal health whenever you inflict vulnerability (Life siphon dmg: 125/stack.  Life siphon healing: 100/stack).  Once per target per interval (1/4s).

 

Adept Traits: Pick Your Fury:

Opportunist:  Gain Fury (5s) when you inflict a movement-impairing condition (CD 5s).  Gain +200 condition damage when you have Fury.

 

Unsuspecting Foe: Gain Fury (8s) when you disable a foe (CD 8s).  Gain +200 power when you have Fury.

 

Furious Parry:  Gain Fury (5s) when you block an attack (CD 5s).  Gain +200 toughness when you have Fury.

 

Master Traits: Pick Your Utility:

Signet Master:  same as is; no changes.

 

Blademaster:  Gain +120 expertise and +120 condition damage.  Double these bonuses when wielding a sword.  [I'm assuming you'll be sticking with your philosophy to remove weapon CD reductions from traits, so I did not include it here.]

 

Poisoned Blades:  Burst skills inflict 3 stacks of poison (6s) on hit.  [Hits only once per target on multi-hit burst skills]

 

Grand Master Traits:

Burst Precision: Gain 1s of +100% critical chance on burst use (not hit), plus an additional second for each bar of adrenaline spent (i.e., a T1 burst = 1+1 =2s of increased critical chance).

 

Savage Cuts: Bleeding you inflict does 33% more damage.  Critical strikes have a chance to cause bleeding (33% chance; duration varies by game mode).

 

Furious Strength: Gain Might (4 stacks for 5s) whenever you gain Fury.  Power and Condi damage increased by 5% when you have might.

 

Brief Discussion:

The idea here is to create a versatile trait line that can be built to augment a power, condi, or hyrbid build...and even have a few powerful defensive traits available, too.

 

Note that the minor traits benefit a wide variety of builds, especially if wielding a sword, without prejudicing toward either power or condi.  Contrast this with the current minor traits which have a decided condi focus (and thus are wasted on  power builds).  

 

The Bloodlust and Savage Cuts trait suggestions above seek to address that bleeding (the weakest condition) is the primary condition applied by the sword.

 

Arms currently has no defensive/sustain oriented traits, so I've included a few.  I believe this will increase the viability of the trait line and thereby improve build diversity.

 

Thanks for considering it!

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by CalmTheStorm.2364
Added Poisoned Blades and Furious Strength

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I like this structure. There is one quibble of mine. Core warrior does not have enough cover conditions, nor enough damaging ones. I really thing there is room within Arms for a torment on crit or torment on bleed type trait, or confusion when striking a CC'd foe.

To fit it into your your suggestions here: I'd say 
Either:

Opportunist:  Gain Fury (5s) when you inflict a movement-impairing condition (CD 5s).  Gain +200 condition damage when you have Fury. Striking a foe with a movement impairing condition inflicts 1 stack of torment for 5s. 

Unsuspecting Foe: Gain Fury (8s) when you disable a foe (CD 8s).  Gain +200 power when you have Fury. Striking a CC'd foes inflicts 1 stack of confusion for 4s.

Furious Parry:  Gain Fury (5s) when you block an attack (CD 5s).  Gain +200 toughness when you have Fury. Strike at foes that block attacks from dealing damage(0.45 scaling) and 3 stacks of bleed damage (1s ICD). The attack would a PBAoE 130 radius strike centered on the warrior.

I put an ICD on the last one to stop someone from cheesing shield stance on top of the copious floor vomit, but otherwise none of those strike me as powerful enough to warrant and ICD, but if need be then do it.

I do think the structure you presented is a good interpretation of what Arms could be like in a more modern viewpoint, but I do think that if we are proposing ideas that an extra source of cover condition needs to be in the 'condition' traitline, as an option of three picks one of which is to go further in on bleeding, while also playing nicely into OH sword with it's Riposte.

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I like this structure. There is one quibble of mine. Core warrior does not have enough cover conditions, nor enough damaging ones. I really thing there is room within Arms for a torment on crit or torment on bleed type trait, or confusion when striking a CC'd foe.

To fit it into your your suggestions here: I'd say 
Either:

Opportunist:  Gain Fury (5s) when you inflict a movement-impairing condition (CD 5s).  Gain +200 condition damage when you have Fury. Striking a foe with a movement impairing condition inflicts 1 stack of torment for 5s. 

Unsuspecting Foe: Gain Fury (8s) when you disable a foe (CD 8s).  Gain +200 power when you have Fury. Striking a CC'd foes inflicts 1 stack of confusion for 4s.

Furious Parry:  Gain Fury (5s) when you block an attack (CD 5s).  Gain +200 toughness when you have Fury. Strike at foes that block attacks from dealing damage(0.45 scaling) and 3 stacks of bleed damage (1s ICD). The attack would a PBAoE 130 radius strike centered on the warrior.

I put an ICD on the last one to stop someone from cheesing shield stance on top of the copious floor vomit, but otherwise none of those strike me as powerful enough to warrant and ICD, but if need be then do it.

I do think the structure you presented is a good interpretation of what Arms could be like in a more modern viewpoint, but I do think that if we are proposing ideas that an extra source of cover condition needs to be in the 'condition' traitline, as an option of three picks one of which is to go further in on bleeding, while also playing nicely into OH sword with it's Riposte.

 

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I definitely considered it.  A few thoughts I had:

1) ANet doesn't seem to really like those traits.  In competitive modes, at least, you end up with stuff like "33% chance to inflict bleeding for 1s".  It's pathetic.  So if that's how they would balance it, I'd just as soon they did something actually useful instead.

 

2.) Reason #1 notwithstanding, I did include a "% chance to inflict bleed on crit" trait because it would synergize with Bloodlust's Life Siphon on bleed application.  That way, they can nerf the inflicted bleed all they want, but you'd still get some LS damage and healing.

 

Now, if CMC decides to actually let up on "% chance to inflict [condi]" traits, that's a different discussion.  Adding it to one of the Adept Fury-oriented traits would probably be a bit much (unless you dropped the stat increase).  However, you could put something like "inflict torment on crit" on a re-worked blademaster or savage cuts pretty reasonably.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Another idea for a Grand Master trait (probably in place of dual wield):

 

Furious Strength:

Gain 4 might (8s) when you gain Fury.

Gain +7% critical chance when you have Might.

 

This provides a source of might generation within Arms and has obvious synergy with the proposed adept traits as well as MMR and GS (arcing slice). But it also provides an alternative means of might generation so you don't feel like you have to run strength and/or FGJ--Im thinking here for a way to make builds like Arms/Disc/Defense a thing.  The small bonus to critical chance is consistent with the Arms philosophy of critical hits. 

 

Thoughts? 

Edited October 13, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Another interesting idea for an Arms Trait (somewhere; probably an adapt/master slot):

 

Poisoned Blades:

Burst skills inflict 3 stacks of Poison (6s) on hit.

 

Provides a source of condi dmg and does so by giving access to a condi warriors don't otherwise have access to.

Also useful on power builds since the poison impairs  the target's heal effectiveness.

[Leo G.4501]

On 10/10/2022 at 8:17 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I like this structure. There is one quibble of mine. Core warrior does not have enough cover conditions, nor enough damaging ones. I really thing there is room within Arms for a torment on crit or torment on bleed type trait, or confusion when striking a CC'd foe.
 

 

Concept-wise, I've like the idea of a "rusted blade" trait that had the chance of applying a random condition (or it could be a table of certain conditions that make sense like cripple, chill, slow, poison and weakness). Or maybe even an added "your next hit" charges after successfully landing a burst.

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:34 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358, @Josh Davis.7865, @Double Tap

 

Congratulations on a very solid re-work of the Defense trait line.  I've had a lot of fun playing with new varieties of warrior this past week!  

 

As you continue working on the Nov balance patch, I wanted to humbly suggest that Arms be next on the docket for Warrior.  A solid Arms re-work, along with changes to Sword and Mace, could provide significant expansion of builds/playstyles available to warrior.

 

Many of the ideas below have been borrowed or adapted from/inspired by the numerous contributors to this forum.  Shout-out to my Warrior brethren! #deephorsestance.

 

With no further ado:

 

Minor Traits:

Furious Burst:  Same as it is now; no changes.

 

Furious Strikes: Gain bonus adrenaline (2) on critical hit

 

Bloodlust:  Steal health whenever you inflict bleeding. (Life siphon dmg: 125/stack.  Life siphon healing: 100/stack)

 

Adept Traits: Pick Your Fury:

Opportunist:  Gain Fury (5s) when you inflict a movement-impairing condition (CD 5s).  Gain +200 condition damage when you have Fury.

 

Unsuspecting Foe: Gain Fury (8s) when you disable a foe (CD 8s).  Gain +200 power when you have Fury.

 

Furious Parry:  Gain Fury (5s) when you block an attack (CD 5s).  Gain +200 toughness when you have Fury.

 

Master Traits: Pick Your Utility:

Signet Master:  same as is; no changes.

 

Blademaster:  Gain +120 expertise and +120 condition damage.  Double these bonuses when wielding a sword.  [I'm assuming you'll be sticking with your philosophy to remove weapon CD reductions from traits, so I did not include it here.]

 

Fencer's Defense:  Periodically gain Aegis (3s, 10s CD) when you critically strike a foe.

 

Grand Master Traits:

Burst Precision: Gain 1s of +100% critical chance on burst use (not hit), plus an additional second for each bar of adrenaline spent (i.e., a T1 burst = 1+1 =2s of increased critical chance).

 

Savage Cuts: Bleeding you inflict does 33% more damage.  Critical strikes have a chance to cause bleeding (33% chance; duration varies by game mode).

 

Dual Wield: Same as it is now, but stacks with Quickness, Berserk mode, and any other increased attack speed modifier.

 

Brief Discussion:

The idea here is to create a versatile trait line that can be built to augment a power, condi, or hyrbid build...and even have a few powerful defensive traits available, too.

 

Note that the minor traits benefit a wide variety of builds, especially if wielding a sword, without prejudicing toward either power or condi.  Contrast this with the current minor traits which have a decided condi focus (and thus are wasted on  power builds).  

 

The Bloodlust and Savage Cuts trait suggestions above seek to address that bleeding (the weakest condition) is the primary condition applied by the sword.

 

Arms currently has no defensive/sustain oriented traits, so I've included a few.  I believe this will increase the viability of the trait line and thereby improve build diversity.

 

Thanks for considering it!

 

 

Excellent! I can get behind this!

My only correction would be to Furious Parry. The fury gain is fine, but instead of a mere +200 toughness increase, I would replace it with the following:

"Reflect all physical attacks while you are blocking." In other words...a parry! The reason I only put physical is because Shield Master already exists for ranged attacks. Also, this FORCES any glass cannon builds to think twice before attacking.

[Tycura.1982]

Needs healing or it will never be viable in pvp. Siphon on vuln is ideal. Siphon on CC is an idea as well.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Tycura.1982

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

4 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Needs healing or it will never be viable in pvp. Siphon on vuln is ideal. Siphon on CC is an idea as well.

Agreed. That's why I put siphon on bleed. I feel like that fits sword and the condi theme of Arms pretty well. And helps make up for the fact that bleeding is so weak. 

 

Siphon on CC is interesting, but would probably fit more thematically with the hammer/mace trait. Also, the siphon would need to be pretty significant (like 1k) to really matter, since you aren't CCing people all the time. It's a neat idea tho. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Agreed. That's why I put siphon on bleed. I feel like that fits sword and the condi theme of Arms pretty well. And helps make up for the fact that bleeding is so weak. 

 

Siphon on CC is interesting, but would probably fit more thematically with the hammer/mace trait. Also, the siphon would need to be pretty significant (like 1k) to really matter, since you aren't CCing people all the time. It's a neat idea tho. 

I don't think Syphon is thematic for warrior. Heal when bleeding a target, would work and fit into "Bloodlust." I would make it 150 HP per stack maybe even 200 hp per stack, stronger that MMR since we have less access to bleed than to might.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I don't think Syphon is thematic for warrior. Heal when bleeding a target, would work and fit into "Bloodlust." I would make it 150 HP per stack maybe even 200 hp per stack, stronger that MMR since we have less access to bleed than to might.

I didn't think an artillery-shooting samurai was particularly thematic for warrior, either, yet here we are. The world is a strange place in 2022.

 

That said, I don't see anything contradictory in warrior having life siphon; it's just a mechanic to let bleed applications do more damage and get healing out of it (compare to Soul beast siphoning health on poison application; I don't really think of rangers as "life suckers" either).

 

Regardless, the heal on bleed application is the most important part; if we don't get the life siphon damage aspect of it, so be it. As @Tycura.1982 points out, Arms will like only become viable in competitive modes if there is some sustain built into it. I took that to heart in the OP and provided 3 different mechanisms for sustain (toughness buff when you have fury, aegis on crit, and, of course, healing on bleed). I really think these changes could make arms a valuable addition to many builds. I'd love to see how it plays out. 

[Potato Slayer.3107]

My only issue is I don't think condition should be baked into minors, but selections in major traits. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

56 minutes ago, Potato Slayer.3107 said:

My only issue is I don't think condition should be baked into minors, but selections in major traits. 

I agree; that's why I didn't have any truly condition-centered minors.  Bloodlust, as per the OP, is life steal when you inflict bleed, but that applies equally for both power and condi builds.  The idea was actually to help promote hybrid usage of weapons like sword and longbow.  Now you could use a sword on a power build and all the bleeding you're inflicting isn't just "wasted" because you have no investment in condition damage; you'll still get the life steal dmg and healing.  That mechanic, I think, should be a core feature of the trait line, much like Adrenal Healing is to Defense.

[Opopanax.1803]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:34 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358, @Josh Davis.7865, @Double Tap

 

Congratulations on a very solid re-work of the Defense trait line.  I've had a lot of fun playing with new varieties of warrior this past week!  

 

As you continue working on the Nov balance patch, I wanted to humbly suggest that Arms be next on the docket for Warrior.  A solid Arms re-work, along with changes to Sword and Mace, could provide significant expansion of builds/playstyles available to warrior.

 

Many of the ideas below have been borrowed or adapted from/inspired by the numerous contributors to this forum.  Shout-out to my Warrior brethren! #deephorsestance.

 

With no further ado:

 

Minor Traits:

Furious Burst:  Same as it is now; no changes.

 

Furious Strikes: Gain bonus adrenaline (2) on critical hit

 

Bloodlust:  Steal health whenever you inflict bleeding. (Life siphon dmg: 125/stack.  Life siphon healing: 100/stack)

 

Adept Traits: Pick Your Fury:

Opportunist:  Gain Fury (5s) when you inflict a movement-impairing condition (CD 5s).  Gain +200 condition damage when you have Fury.

 

Unsuspecting Foe: Gain Fury (8s) when you disable a foe (CD 8s).  Gain +200 power when you have Fury.

 

Furious Parry:  Gain Fury (5s) when you block an attack (CD 5s).  Gain +200 toughness when you have Fury.

 

Master Traits: Pick Your Utility:

Signet Master:  same as is; no changes.

 

Blademaster:  Gain +120 expertise and +120 condition damage.  Double these bonuses when wielding a sword.  [I'm assuming you'll be sticking with your philosophy to remove weapon CD reductions from traits, so I did not include it here.]

 

Fencer's Defense:  Periodically gain Aegis (3s, 10s CD) when you critically strike a foe.

 

Grand Master Traits:

Burst Precision: Gain 1s of +100% critical chance on burst use (not hit), plus an additional second for each bar of adrenaline spent (i.e., a T1 burst = 1+1 =2s of increased critical chance).

 

Savage Cuts: Bleeding you inflict does 33% more damage.  Critical strikes have a chance to cause bleeding (33% chance; duration varies by game mode).

 

Dual Wield: Same as it is now, but stacks with Quickness, Berserk mode, and any other increased attack speed modifier.

 

Brief Discussion:

The idea here is to create a versatile trait line that can be built to augment a power, condi, or hyrbid build...and even have a few powerful defensive traits available, too.

 

Note that the minor traits benefit a wide variety of builds, especially if wielding a sword, without prejudicing toward either power or condi.  Contrast this with the current minor traits which have a decided condi focus (and thus are wasted on  power builds).  

 

The Bloodlust and Savage Cuts trait suggestions above seek to address that bleeding (the weakest condition) is the primary condition applied by the sword.

 

Arms currently has no defensive/sustain oriented traits, so I've included a few.  I believe this will increase the viability of the trait line and thereby improve build diversity.

 

Thanks for considering it!

 

 

My thought is:

Make Longbow autos burn by default.

Make Sword F1 not root you.

 

These 2 things FIRST would open up a lot of gameplay to condi builds for arms.  This should be done FIRST, and then other skills for sword MH and OH re-assessed before plunging into massive trait line reworks.  The weapons that warrior has are very much holding back most of the traitlines more than anything else right now due to how outdated they are.  

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, Opopanax.1803 said:

My thought is:

Make Longbow autos burn by default.

Make Sword F1 not root you.

 

These 2 things FIRST would open up a lot of gameplay to condi builds for arms.  This should be done FIRST, and then other skills for sword MH and OH re-assessed before plunging into massive trait line reworks.  The weapons that warrior has are very much holding back most of the traitlines more than anything else right now due to how outdated they are.  

Those are definitely good ideas, but they aren't nearly enough. I spend lots of time trying to make condizerker work, andI have repeatedly run into the problem that it desperately lacks the ability to condi bomb a target they way more successful condi specs (like Mesmer or harbinger) can.

 

Unrooting flurry won't help with that at all. Flurry is good only for the immob; the power and condi dmg are far too weak, especially when you consider the length of the channel. And it only applies one condition, so they swap weapons and it's all gone.

 

Baseline burning on longbow AA is definitely a good idea and needs to happen, but LB also can't condi bomb targets very well. It is more of a "wear you down with repeated short stacks of burning" weapon. Has no mobility, no hard CC (contrast with DH or ranger LBs), and needs to be melee range to get the most out of fan of fire.

 

All that to say, you're not wrong; the changes you recommend absolutely need to happen, but they won't be enough. Not by a long shot. 

[Potato Slayer.3107]

F2 Core and Offhand skills

 

I had contemplated some defensive F2 type skills for Warrior...a single core skill for ease of implementation, a changing effect type defensive F2 skill based on the core specialization in the specialization slot, and actual offhand weapon skills for all weapons minus underwater.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Potato Slayer.3107

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I was re-reading through some of the ideas in this thread and wanted to float this one in response to comments by @Tycura.1982, @Lan Deathrider.5910, and others who have suggested a "heal/ life siphon when you apply vulnerability" mechanic both here and in other threads.

 

Change Deep Strikes to: Critical hits grant extra adrenaline (1) and inflict vulnerability (1 stack for 6s).

 

Change Bloodlust to: Steal health when you inflict vulnerability (125 LS damage, 100 LS healing).  Once per target per interval (1/4s)

 

What this does is incorporates a sustain mechanic into the minor traits.  Inflicting vulnerability helps both power and condi builds, so it works no matter what you are trying to do.  The interval prevents you from landing a 5-target burst with Sundering Burst (inflicting up to 50 total stacks of vuln) and healing for 5k.  However, it would nonetheless provide extra damage and passive healing throughout the course of a battle.

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 12, 2023 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I was re-reading through some of the ideas in this thread and wanted to float this one in response to comments by @Tycura.1982, @Lan Deathrider.5910, and others who have suggested a "heal/ life siphon when you apply vulnerability" mechanic both here and in other threads.

 

Change Deep Strikes to: Critical hits grant extra adrenaline (1) and inflict vulnerability (1 stack for 6s).

 

Change Bloodlust to: Steal health when you inflict vulnerability (125 LS damage, 100 LS healing).  Once per target per interval (1/4s)

 

What this does is incorporates a sustain mechanic into the minor traits.  Inflicting vulnerability helps both power and condi builds, so it works no matter what you are trying to do.  The interval prevents you from landing a 5-target burst with Sundering Burst (inflicting up to 50 total stacks of vuln) and healing for 5k.  However, it would nonetheless provide extra damage and passive healing throughout the course of a battle.

 

Thoughts?

It would be balanced. PvP forum would still QQ over it, but it really is fairly balanced with the interval.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It would be balanced. PvP forum would still QQ over it, but it really is fairly balanced with the interval.

The PvP forum will QQ over everything , haha.

 

I agree; I think the proposed sustain would be balanced. It would probably be on the order of the healing from MMR but without the benefit of the extra endurance. And the numbers would be super simple to tweak to adjust as needed.

 

I also think it could do wonders for warrior condi builds, since the consistent application of vuln would provide a cover condi.

[Myror.7521]

@CalmTheStorm.2364 Tho condi zerker is not that Bad specialy on the New defence line. You could run from Note to Note very fast (with sword 2 and those jump zerk skill) while have decent condi cleanes good Adrenalin Management plus some meele defence. Also your able to "oneshot" enemys so its more like a 1v1/+1 build. Tho it sucks against ranged builds^^

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I'd keep the life leech on Bleed application for warrior cause it gives more identity to arms and doesn't rip-off Devastation and Battle Scars.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@CalmTheStorm.2364 Tho condi zerker is not that Bad specialy on the New defence line. You could run from Note to Note very fast (with sword 2 and those jump zerk skill) while have decent condi cleanes good Adrenalin Management plus some meele defence. Also your able to "oneshot" enemys so its more like a 1v1/+1 build. Tho it sucks against ranged builds^^

You're right, condizerker is ok. It's very much a B tier pick, tho, and it can't compete with things like cata, tempest, or vindi.

 

I actually find that it does pretty well into ranged builds. Take mace/sword and shield master trait and you have a lot of reflects. Flaming flurry blocks projectiles, too.

 

None of this changes the fact that Arms sucks, tho, or that warrior doesn't have a legitimate condi build outside of berserker.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

You're right, condizerker is ok. It's very much a B tier pick, tho, and it can't compete with things like cata, tempest, or vindi.

 

I actually find that it does pretty well into ranged builds. Take mace/sword and shield master trait and you have a lot of reflects. Flaming flurry blocks projectiles, too.

 

None of this changes the fact that Arms sucks, tho, or that warrior doesn't have a legitimate condi build outside of berserker.

Change Wounding Precision to inflict torment when you bleed a target and you'll have a working condi build without having to take Berserker.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Change Wounding Precision to inflict torment when you bleed a target and you'll have a working condi build without having to take Berserker.

Only if they don't make the torment last only 1s like they do with many similar traits lol.

 

But you're right; creating some sort of mechanic for warrior to apply additional conditions will be necessary for a non-zerker condi build to emerge. Unless they completely rework sword/mace/longbow to become S tier condi weapons in their own right.

 

In one of the comments above, I had proposed "envenomed blades" which would have burst skills apply poison. That would be another way to increase condi output, and -importantly- wouldn't be tied to sword.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Only if they don't make the torment last only 1s like they do with many similar traits lol.

If it's a 1-for-1 application with no CD then it would have to be low in duration, but certainly not 1s. I can see 2s being fine in PvP/WvW though. Warrior does have several skills that apply multiple stacks of bleed at once, so if it were a long duration then players would explode when you hit them with Pin Down or Flurry. Even in PvE with how bosses play out, if it were long duration you'd see Core warriors all of a sudden spiking in condition damage benchmarks, and condi Berserker WAY topping the benchmarks. So, something like 4s/2s (PvE/Comp). Even then those numbers may be high, in reality we'd want it to raise the PvE condi Zerker bench by 10-15% at the most, with the competitive performance on the lower end of that. Enough to make it effective, but not oppressive. So whatever durations that turns out to be in the end.

22 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

But you're right; creating some sort of mechanic for warrior to apply additional conditions will be necessary for a non-zerker condi build to emerge. Unless they completely rework sword/mace/longbow to become S tier condi weapons in their own right.

Torment on bleed would bolster all of them (via Body Blow for Mace).  But MH/OH Mace should get confusion baked into them to return warrior's confusion with CC identity.

22 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

In one of the comments above, I had proposed "envenomed blades" which would have burst skills apply poison. That would be another way to increase condi output, and -importantly- wouldn't be tied to sword.

I think the secret to unlocking warrior's condition viability is things like "Inflict X condition when you inflict Y condition." THe three viable conditions to proc off of are Bleed, Vulnerability, and Cripple, all of which warrior has in abundance. We have Immob proccing off of Cripple already, so I'm hesitant to compound that, and when we apply Vuln we REALLY apply vuln so attaching a condition to that is precarious unless it's something like a small life steal. Bleeds though we apply in less extreme amounts at once than Vuln, but apply a steady stream of, so it's a good candidate for this sort of change.