Core rev needs ranged weapon

[Angesombre.4630]

12 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Do you use a browser translator ? Quote is completely messed up. WvW became MvM.

It's not meant for melee, you have swords for melee. Much better use of your energy.

Yes, thanks and sorry I didn't see that.

The change to skill 2 has been modified and I think it's worse before there was this little space between the player and the attack.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/21/2022 at 8:10 PM, Kulvar.1239 said:

Issue is that the weapons are tied to legends.

Sword/Sword = Shiro
Hammer = Jalis
Mace/Axe = Mallyx
Staff = Ventari
Shield = Brill
Shortbow = Kalla
Greatsword = Archemorus/St Viktor

Unless you add a new core legend with a new weapon, it won't be.

Not necessarily. All of the trait lines are also themed around a matching legend... apart from Invocation, which offers traits that augment any legend (and be augmented by the legend in turn) and essentially represent the central skills of a revenant. There's no reason a new core weapon (or weapon set) couldn't use the same principle.

[draxynnic.3719]

(Double post due to phone playing up)

Edited October 23, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[draxynnic.3719]

(Triple post due to phone playing up.)

Edited October 23, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Kulvar.1239]

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Not necessarily. All of the trait lines are also themed around a matching legend... apart from Invocation, which offers traits that augment any legend (and be augmented by the legend in turn) and essentially represent the central skills of a revenant. There's no reason a new core weapon (or weapon set) couldn't use the same principle.

An interesting idea came to my mind.
The weapon would need to be a jack of all trades that could be used with any legend.

What if the new core weapon is the Focus, and its skills change to compliment the active legend ?
Bonus: You can use The Bindings of Ipos with Mallyx 😄

Ideas:
Shiro : OH sword is already a good pDPS weapon, so maybe a hybrid pDPS + AoE might/fury support ? Or extra mobility/. Maybe stealth?
Jalis : extra Resolution and a Push CC (you punch the target with a stone fist)
Ventari : a healing skill and a condition cleanse skill
Mallyx : #4 transfer your conditions to the target, #5 inflict Fear.
Brill : #4 AoE Vigor, #5 AoE Quickness so Quick Herald is less clunky!
Kalla : no real idea sorry. Maybe like Mirage, shadowstep active summons to a new location ?
Archemorus/St Viktor : #4 skill is an Archemorus DPS skill, #5 skill is a heal/support St Viktor skill

Edited October 23, 2022 by Kulvar.1239

[draxynnic.3719]

An offhand won't solve any of the problems being discussed. If ArenaNet was particularly generous, I could see a scepter-focus pair or the like, but to address the problems I raised, a hypothetical invocation weapon would need to be ranged, and to be a condition damage or hybrid weapon (at least when being used with Mallyx).

The underwater weapons demonstrate that revenant can have weapons that aren't linked to a specific legend. The hypothetical Invocation weapon would be the same, I think. It'd revolve around the revenant having some ability to manipulate Mists energy independently of a legend. At most, I'd expect to see something like trident where the base attack has different secondary effects depending on the legend in use.

I don't see the skills completely changing. That'd make the weapon have more skills than an equivalent elementalist weapon. Based on past evidence, getting another core weapon at all is a big ask, let alone something with different skills for each of 7+ legendary stances.

[Kulvar.1239]

18 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

An offhand won't solve any of the problems being discussed. If ArenaNet was particularly generous, I could see a scepter-focus pair or the like, but to address the problems I raised, a hypothetical invocation weapon would need to be ranged, and to be a condition damage or hybrid weapon (at least when being used with Mallyx).

The underwater weapons demonstrate that revenant can have weapons that aren't linked to a specific legend. The hypothetical Invocation weapon would be the same, I think. It'd revolve around the revenant having some ability to manipulate Mists energy independently of a legend. At most, I'd expect to see something like trident where the base attack has different secondary effects depending on the legend in use.

I don't see the skills completely changing. That'd make the weapon have more skills than an equivalent elementalist weapon. Based on past evidence, getting another core weapon at all is a big ask, let alone something with different skills for each of 7+ legendary stances.

But what would it be ? I think we can exclude rifle/pistols as their advanced technological would not fit Revenant unless tied to a thematically fitting legend*. That leave Scepter/Focus, Daggers and Longbow.

I picked Focus only because that's "only" 2 skills per legend rather than 5. I posted it because I found the idea funny. I expect ANet to not add anything in the first place.

* Maybe an Asura legend like Vekk with a rifle that shoot ice bullets and lightning bolts.

[draxynnic.3719]

Scepter would be the most obvious, tapping into Mists magic and essentially being to ritualist as guardian staff and scepter are to monk. It is worth noting, though, that rev has its own style of Mists magic that is distinct from ritualist - it probably wouldn't involve the lightning effects often associated with ritualist. More likely to be rending the earth or throwing bolts of pure Mists energy. That red orb that some ritualist spirits throw in EoD could be a possible effect, though.

Dagger and MH axe could also work, with a theme of symbolically slicing through the veil between Tyria and the Mists.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Bruh.. lack of second ranged weapon is only a part of a problem. All legend skills are pretty much melee oriented resulting in lack of synergy whatsoever. A legend focused on ranged combat is needed as well to make stuff flow a bit better.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Bruh.. lack of second ranged weapon is only a part of a problem. All legend skills are pretty much melee oriented resulting in lack of synergy whatsoever. A legend focused on ranged combat is needed as well to make stuff flow a bit better.

Sure ok.

If Arena Net is feeling generous.

I totally agree.

I wouldn't mind a new legend at all either.

Question is, who?

Cynn? Alcolyte Sosuke or Jin?

Who are we going for that would fit Rev the best?

 

If not, we still have Ventari, which with scepter could work like a scourge, condi+support hybrid.

Maybe they could make it work with jalis too?

 

If... as a few people suggested already, ANet could allow us to use the Trident on land.

It could open up a lot of new unique options for Rev.

Trident is already set to work with any legend.

It may well be what we're looking for.

Edited October 25, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Bruh.. lack of second ranged weapon is only a part of a problem. All legend skills are pretty much melee oriented resulting in lack of synergy whatsoever. A legend focused on ranged combat is needed as well to make stuff flow a bit better.

Shiro has Impossible Odds.

Mallyx has Banish Enchantment, although that now requires Abyssal Chill to really work.

Ventari has 'move the tablet to wherever it's needed'.

Glint has buffs, Elemental Blast, and Chaotic Release as a gap-opener.

Kalla has... basically her entire kit.

Archemorus has Scavenger Burst and Spear of Archemorus, although you'd likely get less use out of your dodges.

 

Just a matter of how you choose to use your energy.

 

Sure, it'll likely always be a 'prefers melee' profession, but it lacks both a second ranged weapon and a second condi weapon. Might as well kill both birds with one stone.

[Angesombre.4630]

Yes for kalla but with a lot of things where it says "no access path if I'm not mistaken" so it limits the places to use them at times like in some fractal for example. And in addition there are 2 that work only if people are in it so otherwise no real damage.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Yes for kalla but with a lot of things where it says "no access path if I'm not mistaken" so it limits the places to use them at times like in some fractal for example. And in addition there are 2 that work only if people are in it so otherwise no real damage.

Sure, but in the case of those 2, you can place them on ranged attackers to boost ranged attacks. Neither does anything to the enemy directly, so you place them wherever they're going to apply their effects to as many allies as possible.

Not sure I can say I've never had that message pop up with Kalla, but it seems to be rare enough that it probably doesn't pop up often outside of jumping puzzles (including the Uncategorized mini-puzzles).

[Scoobaniec.9561]

On 10/26/2022 at 12:31 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Shiro has Impossible Odds.

Mallyx has Banish Enchantment, although that now requires Abyssal Chill to really work.

Ventari has 'move the tablet to wherever it's needed'.

Glint has buffs, Elemental Blast, and Chaotic Release as a gap-opener.

Kalla has... basically her entire kit.

Archemorus has Scavenger Burst and Spear of Archemorus, although you'd likely get less use out of your dodges.

 

Just a matter of how you choose to use your energy.

 

Sure, it'll likely always be a 'prefers melee' profession, but it lacks both a second ranged weapon and a second condi weapon. Might as well kill both birds with one stone.

Shiro also has gap closer and mid range aoe stun which youll never use for.. many reasons but energy being number 1

Mallyx kit is melee oriented apart from one utility.

Ventari is a healer.

Glint is elite spec. So is Kalla and legendary cantha joke

 

Legend focused on keeping opponent away/gap opening, cc and dealing damage at range is needed

[draxynnic.3719]

25 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Shiro also has gap closer and mid range aoe stun which youll never use for.. many reasons but energy being number 1

Mallyx kit is melee oriented apart from one utility.

Ventari is a healer.

Glint is elite spec. So is Kalla and legendary cantha joke

 

Legend focused on keeping opponent away/gap opening, cc and dealing damage at range is needed

The way revenant works, though, one utility that's useful for ranged combat is all you need, outside of niche cases like Forced Engagement where the cooldown is more limiting than the energy cost. You use the skills that are relevant to what you're doing and don't use the others.

Shiro when playing ranged will mostly use Impossible Odds, but might occasionally use Riposting Shadows as a gap-opening stunbreak.

Mallyx when playing ranged can spam Banish Enchantment.

Ventari has everything usable at ranged, albeit support-focused. You don't need investment in healing power to benefit from the bubble or the explosion knockback, though.

And while you reject the others as 'elite specs', they can still provide part of the picture, as can the weapons themselves. Glint, for instance, provides a knockback and gap-opener in one skill, as well as damage through Elemental Blast. A condi herald could theoretically have ranged play by using these in Glint, and using Banish Enchantments freely with Mallyx (which will also slow enemies down through Chill). Such a build would probably still have an incentive to close to be able to use other tools, but the tools are there for the legends to support periods of standoff fighting...if there was a suitable ranged weapon to use.

[soul.9651]

Well after their balance philosophy manifesto i think rev needs a new ranged dps spec instead :d because im not sure how they would implement it to the core

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Well after their balance philosophy manifesto i think rev needs a new ranged dps spec instead :d because im not sure how they would implement it to the core

Renegade was a ranged dps spec.

Thing is, there's no good justification for core, herald, and vindicator to be lacking a ranged condition weapon. Even if you consider them to be melee-oriented, it should be possible to have a melee set that you use most of the time, and a ranged set that you switch to when staying in melee is no longer practical.

[otto.5684]

On 10/19/2022 at 3:02 PM, captrowdy.9561 said:

No. Rev is fine. Ren is one of the fun range specs and hammer works. Just like warrior isn’t focused towards range and necro isn’t focused towards melee. The solution to your problem is to only have one char per class. 

Warrior has 2 ranged weapons that are better than hammer in pve. And all classes have at least 1 good pve ranged weapon in pve, except rev for some reason. Though, hammer could be significantly improved in pve.

[soul.9651]

52 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Renegade was a ranged dps spec.

Thing is, there's no good justification for core, herald, and vindicator to be lacking a ranged condition weapon. Even if you consider them to be melee-oriented, it should be possible to have a melee set that you use most of the time, and a ranged set that you switch to when staying in melee is no longer practical.

Well the way i see renegade and especially condi, yes it does have a little bit of ranged dps in it with the shortbow itself, but even when you are on shortbow you still need to be close to the target to get the use of mallyx elite skill, and after you are done with demon stance and swap to kalla + you swap to the mace and axe aswell so at that moment you become fully melee dps. So when people say that renegade can be ranged dps i cant rly agree with that, most of the time you still need to stick close to the target, its nowhere close beeing ranged dps if you compare it to rifle mech or virtuoso. Idk to me rev doesnt rly have any legend which trully specializes at ranged dps and the closest weapons for it i guess are shortbow and hammer, but still rev lacks ton of stuff to really be a functional ranged dps. So all in all only the next expansion could fix this if they introduced rifle or longbow or idk pistol rev spec which specializes at beeing ranged dps. Mainly i have in mind pve tho, in wvw its different story i would say, hammer and shortbow are pretty good options for beeing ranged there.

Edited October 29, 2022 by soul.9651

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Well the way i see renegade and especially condi, yes it does have a little bit of ranged dps in it with the shortbow itself, but even when you are on shortbow you still need to be close to the target to get the use of mallyx elite skill, and after you are done with demon stance and swap to kalla + you swap to the mace and axe aswell so at that moment you become fully melee dps. So when people say that renegade can be ranged dps i cant rly agree with that, most of the time you still need to stick close to the target, its nowhere close beeing ranged dps if you compare it to rifle mech or virtuoso. Idk to me rev doesnt rly have any legend which trully specializes at ranged dps and the closest weapons for it i guess are shortbow and hammer, but still rev lacks ton of stuff to really be a functional ranged dps. So all in all only the next expansion could fix this if they introduced rifle or longbow or idk pistol rev spec which specializes at beeing ranged dps. Mainly i have in mind pve tho, in wvw its different story i would say, hammer and shortbow are pretty good options for beeing ranged there.

That's pretty much exactly the reverse of how I'd run it. Shortbow with Kalla, mace/axe and go into melee with Mallyx. Maybe that's not the optimised condiren raid rotation, but those rotations assume you're in the melee boonball anyway. Even if you run out of energy in Kalla and switch to Mallyx, you can spend Mallyx energy on Banish Enchantments, Citadel Bombardment, and the like before swapping back to Kalla. Sure, you'll do more damage in melee with Mallyx, but melee is supposed to do more damage unless the melee build has given up damage for survivability (which core mesmer and ranger melee weapons do).

Plus, shortbow is enough of a hybrid that power shortbow is a valid way of doing things if you're not hyper-focused on maximum DPS in raidlike conditions, and Shiro/Kalla shortbow renegade is quite effective with that playstyle.

Ultimately, though, the question of whether there's a ranged focus spec is a bit of a whataboutism. The core issue is that condition revenants that aren't renegades don't have a suitable ranged weapon to swap to if they wanted to, and in fact don't have a condi weapon to run alongside mace/axe at all. Ultimately, all soldiers are intended to be encouraged to dive into melee (renegade is probably the closest thing to a ranged-focused elite spec across the entire soldier category), so it's not about sitting at 1000+ range and pewpewing like a longbow ranger, it's about having a weapon you can swap to when you can't or don't want to be in melee right now.

Edited October 30, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Potato Slayer.3107]

if there is ever gonna be a mid range condi weapon it would be axe mainhand...but for none of the reasons stated

[Howluffu.7259]

On 10/23/2022 at 6:07 PM, Kulvar.1239 said:

I think we can exclude rifle/pistols as their advanced technological would not fit Revenant

kitten I would have killed for the EoD rev elite spec to have been a duelist dw pistol demonhunter like Dante from DMC. Imagine having this middle/close or far range aoe mist powered pistols and changing to a more unitargeted melee GS core weapon with charged attacks. My dream🤩

[Dunroy.1058]

I'll admit I've just been skim reading so this might have been answered already, but my question is essentially, why?

 

I've mained Rev since HoT release across all content. Melee is just where it's at. Yes other classes have more ranged options, but that doesn't mean that they have any more optimal ranged builds than Rev. What exactly is it you want to get with another ranged option, because if it's just a different aesthetic, then just slap a different skin on your hammer.

 

TL;DR Rev doesn't need another ranged option because there isn't any content that requires one.

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

kitten I would have killed for the EoD rev elite spec to have been a duelist dw pistol demonhunter like Dante from DMC. Imagine having this middle/close or far range aoe mist powered pistols and changing to a more unitargeted melee GS core weapon with charged attacks. My dream🤩

Yeah, we have precedent for revenant using a pistol with Mai Trin. I don't think a Scarlet legend is ever going to be playable (ArenaNet doesn't appear to think that the PC revenant would channel one of their personal opponents except temporarily in an emergency), but if they ever come up with a suitable theme for a gun revenant, there's no reason it couldn't work.

Mind you, my personal preference would be for more nonhumanoid legends.

12 hours ago, RegnieRiku.4102 said:

I'll admit I've just been skim reading so this might have been answered already, but my question is essentially, why?

 

I've mained Rev since HoT release across all content. Melee is just where it's at. Yes other classes have more ranged options, but that doesn't mean that they have any more optimal ranged builds than Rev. What exactly is it you want to get with another ranged option, because if it's just a different aesthetic, then just slap a different skin on your hammer.

 

TL;DR Rev doesn't need another ranged option because there isn't any content that requires one.

Here's a response I prepared earlier:

 

On 10/21/2022 at 12:11 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

 

1) Having only one ranged weapon means that if that weapon is doing poorly balance-wise, this pretty much means that the profession (outside of elite specs that bring a ranged weapon) basically has no ranged capability. And revenant has been in this position almost since release, as the WvW-oriented nerfs to hammer happened fairly soon after Heart of Thorns released. However, one can point to other professions where they've had a ranged weapon that was bad at one point in time or another, but it didn't impact them nearly as much because, with Warrior as an arguable exception, they usually had at least one other ranged weapon that was good enough to be worth using. It's rare to have two ranged weapons on a profession in trash tier: having two options means that if one is bad, you can use the other until it gets fixed. So even if, hypothetically, hammer was to be fixed next month, having a second option available is still worthwhile as insurance.

2) Condition revenant builds that aren't renegade exist - however, once they've taken the obvious choice of mace/axe, there just isn't another condition weapon (or condition set) to swap to. Sword and hammer, you've got the odd Abyssal Chill proc (which locks you into using that trait), and that's it. Staff doesn't even have that. In practice, this means that non-renegade condition revs either have mace on both sets, or they have to accept that whatever set they swap to is almost purely defensive in nature and doesn't contribute to their condition damage output.

 

To respond to your TL;DR directly:

There is also significant evidence in recent content, such as the EoD strike missions, that ArenaNet has been trying to break the paradigm that melee is all you need. If that trend continues, we might end up with content in which the only viable revenant you can bring in is renegade.

[Aeolus.3615]

TDLR Revenant dont have a lonbow range pew pew low ewfort mode 😉

Now if only Anet fixed hammer.... that would be a good thing!

for the confused players rev has 2 ranged weapons why is the 3rd  needed?

Edited November 8, 2022 by Aeolus.3615