Core rev needs ranged weapon

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Other than the hammer, Revs need a ranged weapon, so we can use with other ES too.

 

I have 4 Revs and for variety sake, I'm not going to equip them all with hammers.

 

Ok, I have a renegade who has a short bow.

That makes 3.

Having hammer on my Herald... that still makes two more revs who don't have a ranged option for when battle requires so.

 

It's either slap tank build on it or get dead.

I really need it as an option for my Vindicator, because, you know...!?

Dodge issues.

 

I'm using GS and Mace + Axe on Vin.

Double Sword and Staff on the Core Rev... which by the way; that trade-off skill.

Meeehh.

They're fun weapons, which is great.

But my other two revs are also using double swords, mace and axe.

 

So, for both technical and variety reasons, we really need a ranged weapon for Revs.

 

Let's look at the options and see which ranged weapon would better suit a rev.

 

Long Bow. 

Since the short bow is what makes renegade special, I can immediately presume LB is out of the question for core?

 

Scepter.

It would steal a little thunder from guardian, but may well just be the best option here.

It could fire red projectiles like sonic booms at a fast rate.

 

Daggers.

Maybe just an off hand throwing dagger with fast recharge. 

Perhaps leave this one as a last resort.

 

Pistol.

Same as daggers. But maybe less suitable, even though technically would be a better choice.

 

Rifle.

Same as long bow. This one is probably out of the question. Perhaps reserved for an ES.

Not really suitable fir a rev, maybe.

 

Torch and Warhorn.

Maybe not. These wouldn't really do much for long range.

 

Ok, so.

Scepter it is then?

 

Alternatively we could have a ranged legend added to core so all ES could use it.

Maybe giving us utility skills that attack at range.

Maybe allowing us to use underwater weapons inland. 

 

That could replace that meh trade off and give rev something unique.

 

We could well use that trident on land.

... and a throwing spear too?

[phokus.8934]

Scepter would make perfect sense as a mid-ranged weapon.

[captrowdy.9561]

No. Rev is fine. Ren is one of the fun range specs and hammer works. Just like warrior isn’t focused towards range and necro isn’t focused towards melee. The solution to your problem is to only have one char per class. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

21 minutes ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

No. Rev is fine. Ren is one of the fun range specs and hammer works. Just like warrior isn’t focused towards range and necro isn’t focused towards melee. The solution to your problem is to only have one char per class. 

And yet Warrior has better ranged options than Rev in its core set

[Buran.3796]

   I would argue that they should just redo the hammer. Turn it into the the trident or the short bow: a weapon which provides hybrid damage and can work diferently based on the legends you run.

   I don't need a new ranged weapon, but I have to admit that I don't use hammer in any game mode, and has been this way for years (outside meme builds to fight boringness in PvP).  Well, is not like I'll touch PvP oftenly again, anyway 🤣 ...

[Lighter.5631]

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

And yet Warrior has better ranged options than Rev in its core set

which is not true, hammer at least has a responsive evade frame, rifle evade frame kicks in after 2 years.

and a projectile block and a ranged AoE CC.

rifle has a 130 range CC on a ranged weapon.

and hammer is at least meta in WvW.

both rifle and longbow isn't meta in any game mode.

Also even if it is true, it basically means nothing, as core set is garbage and not worth comparing, would rather trade both option for a actual playable elite spec ranged option, like ren.

[captrowdy.9561]

19 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

which is not true, hammer at least has a responsive evade frame, rifle evade frame kicks in after 2 years.

and a projectile block and a ranged AoE CC.

rifle has a 130 range CC on a ranged weapon.

and hammer is at least meta in WvW.

both rifle and longbow isn't meta in any game mode.

Also even if it is true, it basically means nothing, as core set is garbage and not worth comparing, would rather trade both option for a actual playable elite spec ranged option, like ren.

Exactly. They could have just gave warrior a main hand pistol with EOD. With like a 900 range or even 600. 

[draxynnic.3719]

ArenaNet aren't going to make new weapons just because someone has four revenants and wants them to use different weapons.

Better to point out that having only one ranged weapon makes non-renegade revenant extremely sensitive to the balance of that weapon, since it means that if that weapon is bad (which hammer has been due to WvW- oriented nerfs from back before skill splits were a thing) you basically don't have a ranged capability at all.

Or to point out that condi rev (again, apart from renegade) doesn't have any suitable weaponswap after mace - sword and staff are used for their defensive properties, but even with Abyssal Chill switching to either means you're pretty much entirely reliant on legend skills for conditions.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

which is not true, hammer at least has a responsive evade frame, rifle evade frame kicks in after 2 years.

and a projectile block and a ranged AoE CC.

rifle has a 130 range CC on a ranged weapon.

and hammer is at least meta in WvW.

both rifle and longbow isn't meta in any game mode.

Also even if it is true, it basically means nothing, as core set is garbage and not worth comparing, would rather trade both option for a actual playable elite spec ranged option, like ren.

Outside of Zerg WvW rifle is better than Rev hammer. It’s far more versatile and actually effective in the role of ranged damage for roaming, small group, or PvP. Hammer in its kitten current state not so much. Rifle is super underrated
 

longbow is also meta for condi war in PvE and actually a good PvE weapon unlike hammer on Rev. 
 

comparing core options is certainly important as well, I disagree there.  

Edited October 20, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Szymon.5369]

If I were to pick what to add.. I'd focus on the fact that core Rev somewhat flips typical roles on many weapons - Axe, a typically mainhand weapon is offhand-only, Hammer is ranged, Staff is melee. Considering that, I'd argue that perfect candidate would be mainhand Torch: it flips its typical role, could be an alternative condi weapon, and would be a second ranged option. Checks all boxes for me.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

18 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

No. Rev is fine.

Denial.

18 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

Ren is one of the fun range specs and hammer works. Just like warrior isn’t focused towards range and necro isn’t focused towards melee.

Not Arena Net's view, and they have proven time and again. 

Did you not get the last patch update?

18 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

The solution to your problem is to only have one char per class. 

Bold, italic, and underlined.

You are telling me I shouldn't buy anymore character slots;  stop giving Arena Net money, and don't play to my heart's content, because in your point of view, I have a problem, because I want variety and flexibility? 

 

Weldone.

Future ANet costumer.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

ArenaNet aren't going to make new weapons just because someone has four revenants and wants them to use different weapons.

 

I have to make a point.

 

One that ANet is well aware of.

It is in no way a selfish, "call out for attention" statement. 

I have to explain in a matter that is clear that is fact that Revenants lack of ranged weapon choices.

You cannot possibly argue with that.

 

From a sales point of view; the more variety you give to a class and still manage to keep it unique, the more character slots a player will buy, and the many other items that will follow after that, including gem store items.

 

People don't call it "Fashion Wars" for nothing.

15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Better to point out that having only one ranged weapon makes non-renegade revenant extremely sensitive to the balance of that weapon, since it means that if that weapon is bad (which hammer has been due to WvW- oriented nerfs from back before skill splits were a thing) you basically don't have a ranged capability at all.

Or to point out that condi rev (again, apart from renegade) doesn't have any suitable weaponswap after mace - sword and staff are used for their defensive properties, but even with Abyssal Chill switching to either means you're pretty much entirely reliant on legend skills for conditions.

 

You have squeezed so much information in one short sentence that is hard to understand what you're really trying to get at here.

 

I usually don't reply to this sort of statement because when you don't have a broader view of what is is to run a videogame development company, it is hard to try make you see that their priority is to make sales; and if you have read the small print, which I believe that you did not; it states that the game is subject to change at any given time, as the developers see fit.

 

If the devs decide to completely remove Warrior from the game because it is just a lost cause of a profession; it would probably lose a few handful of players, but you could not do a rats back about it.

 

If the devs decide to give warriors a pink tutu and a wand, and their skills would be based on ballerina moves; they can; and there isn't a single darn thing you can do in this world or the next.

 

Now, if the devs see my logic, and find it profitable and the best way fowards to give core Revs a Scepter or any other ranged weapon in order to give it more variety and increase sales; they will do so.

 

Rev is one of the classes in this game that has the least number of weapons, and only two ranged.

 

It definitely needs another ranged weapon.

Edited October 20, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, Szymon.5369 said:

If I were to pick what to add.. I'd focus on the fact that core Rev somewhat flips typical roles on many weapons - Axe, a typically mainhand weapon is offhand-only, Hammer is ranged, Staff is melee. Considering that, I'd argue that perfect candidate would be mainhand Torch: it flips its typical role, could be an alternative condi weapon, and would be a second ranged option. Checks all boxes for me.

Not bad.

Not bad at all.

 

Actually like this idea.

Would be very interesting playing main hand torch that you can throw.

 

What else you got?

[draxynnic.3719]

2 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You have squeezed so much information in one short sentence that is hard to get what you're really trying to get at here.

Clearly, since you're arguing as if I'm holding the opposite position to what I actually hold.

I've been pushing for core revenant to have an additional weapon, ideally a ranged condi weapon, for years. Which is part of why I compressed my thoughts the way I did - because I've argued them at length several times before. However, I don't think fashion wars for people who have four characters of the same profession is the strongest argument. Better, instead, to show how the current weapon lineup causes revenant to suffer even if someone only has one revenant:

1) Having only one ranged weapon means that if that weapon is doing poorly balance-wise, this pretty much means that the profession (outside of elite specs that bring a ranged weapon) basically has no ranged capability. And revenant has been in this position almost since release, as the WvW-oriented nerfs to hammer happened fairly soon after Heart of Thorns released. However, one can point to other professions where they've had a ranged weapon that was bad at one point in time or another, but it didn't impact them nearly as much because, with Warrior as an arguable exception, they usually had at least one other ranged weapon that was good enough to be worth using. It's rare to have two ranged weapons on a profession in trash tier: having two options means that if one is bad, you can use the other until it gets fixed. So even if, hypothetically, hammer was to be fixed next month, having a second option available is still worthwhile as insurance.

2) Condition revenant builds that aren't renegade exist - however, once they've taken the obvious choice of mace/axe, there just isn't another condition weapon (or condition set) to swap to. Sword and hammer, you've got the odd Abyssal Chill proc (which locks you into using that trait), and that's it. Staff doesn't even have that. In practice, this means that non-renegade condition revs either have mace on both sets, or they have to accept that whatever set they swap to is almost purely defensive in nature and doesn't contribute to their condition damage output.

These are both major pain points that any revenant player who doesn't exclusively play renegade will experience, regardless of whether they have one revenant character or forty. A ranged condition weapon would kill both proverbial birds with one stone.

 

2 hours ago, Szymon.5369 said:

If I were to pick what to add.. I'd focus on the fact that core Rev somewhat flips typical roles on many weapons - Axe, a typically mainhand weapon is offhand-only, Hammer is ranged, Staff is melee. Considering that, I'd argue that perfect candidate would be mainhand Torch: it flips its typical role, could be an alternative condi weapon, and would be a second ranged option. Checks all boxes for me.

Eh. There isn't any precedent for putting offhands into mainhands, however much some people seem to obsess over the idea, and I've seen people who've looked into the systems say that the mainhand-offhand-dual-twohand categories are, if not hardcoded, at least firmcoded enough that it's more than just devising some skills and flipping a switch.

Axe would work well, removing the weirdness of axe only being available to rev as an offhand. Dagger could work. Sceptre is already pretty much the mainhand torch as it is. Having a sceptre and then throwing it would be amusing, although I am imagining sceptre in this context as being more of an Invocation-themed weapon drawing from core revenant abilities rather than a specific legend. Something like a terrestrial equivalent of trident.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

10 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Clearly, since you're arguing as if I'm holding the opposite position to what I actually hold.

I've been pushing for core revenant to have an additional weapon, ideally a ranged condi weapon, for years. Which is part of why I compressed my thoughts the way I did - because I've argued them at length several times before. However, I don't think fashion wars for people who have four characters of the same profession is the strongest argument. Better, instead, to show how the current weapon lineup causes revenant to suffer even if someone only has one revenant:

1) Having only one ranged weapon means that if that weapon is doing poorly balance-wise, this pretty much means that the profession (outside of elite specs that bring a ranged weapon) basically has no ranged capability. And revenant has been in this position almost since release, as the WvW-oriented nerfs to hammer happened fairly soon after Heart of Thorns released. However, one can point to other professions where they've had a ranged weapon that was bad at one point in time or another, but it didn't impact them nearly as much because, with Warrior as an arguable exception, they usually had at least one other ranged weapon that was good enough to be worth using. It's rare to have two ranged weapons on a profession in trash tier: having two options means that if one is bad, you can use the other until it gets fixed. So even if, hypothetically, hammer was to be fixed next month, having a second option available is still worthwhile as insurance.

2) Condition revenant builds that aren't renegade exist - however, once they've taken the obvious choice of mace/axe, there just isn't another condition weapon (or condition set) to swap to. Sword and hammer, you've got the odd Abyssal Chill proc (which locks you into using that trait), and that's it. Staff doesn't even have that. In practice, this means that non-renegade condition revs either have mace on both sets, or they have to accept that whatever set they swap to is almost purely defensive in nature and doesn't contribute to their condition damage output.

These are both major pain points that any revenant player who doesn't exclusively play renegade will experience, regardless of whether they have one revenant character or forty. A ranged condition weapon would kill both proverbial birds with one stone.

 

Eh. There isn't any precedent for putting offhands into mainhands, however much some people seem to obsess over the idea, and I've seen people who've looked into the systems say that the mainhand-offhand-dual-twohand categories are, if not hardcoded, at least firmcoded enough that it's more than just devising some skills and flipping a switch.

Axe would work well, removing the weirdness of axe only being available to rev as an offhand. Dagger could work. Sceptre is already pretty much the mainhand torch as it is. Having a sceptre and then throwing it would be amusing, although I am imagining sceptre in this context as being more of an Invocation-themed weapon drawing from core revenant abilities rather than a specific legend. Something like a terrestrial equivalent of trident.

 

Very good.

Thank you.

This is more like it.

 

You still underestimate the power of aesthetic though.

You might not like it or agree with it; but you cannot dismiss the fact that it sells.

 

Hence my point of the number of characters, which you seem to have missed somehow.

 

I liked your reply though.

You made some very good points, and I must agree that Scepter may just be the best weapon Rev needs for long range options.

 

So thank you.

[Zaret.1450]

What rev needs most right now is a full, big, rework, from the core energy mecanic that works awfully and is a nerfed thief initiative mecanic,  the "all power builds" lack of dmg, etc.

Legends like shiro, archemorus, vicktor maybe not that much, and skills like orders from rene, energy meld from vindi, the all powerfull upkeeper herald.

And weapons, swords and gs have exactly the same dmg and isnt worth swaping between them even in a golem rotation, staff is a huge cc button mostly, hammer... ok for wvw but its too slow and its skills dont realy fit pve for example, mace and axe are fine i guess, im not much of a condi fan but i think theyre good.

Now weapons only, do we need a ranged option? mmmmeehhh i mean it would be usefull, and a good thing to have if we got a fast ranged weapon but right now there are so many things "half baked" that one weapon would solve nothing, if we got several needed changes? then id go for either scepter or double daggers, scepter because it could be like trident, based on legend you have diferent effects, like on shiro it does dmg, mallynx torment and ventary or vicktor healing, that would also help with the "we have no good heal weapon" staff is cool but we all know we heal with our legends, not with the staff the staff is for 3 5 and emergency 4 if youre bored, it isnt the main healing weapon, the main heal weapons are tablet vick ashes and jump.

Now for a pure dps ranged weapon? id say daggers, like you see virtuoso? i thought rev woukd get that but instead of purple ilusion daggers, mist daggers, is it a copy?.... wellllll should you realy care about that stuff? i mean.... rev is filled with thief stuff, i saw tons of people criing for getting one dodge more and sry but, everyone has 2 dodges (mirage, youll get yours soon), energy is initiative, willbender is shiro rev with swords but better, kalla is necro wells, wells that can DIE, all 5 skills, herald is UPKEEP LORD i mean even herald mecanic is upkeep come on, renegade bombardment and vindi gs5 are the same " size matters" stuff. And people cried for one dodge, yes we got nerfed, i mean the healing nerf was too much but the endurance ones are mostly irrelevant, we can still dodge decently well, the thing is STOP, please stop criing for getting something similar to others, our wells die, our initiative needs cooldowns and is half of what it should be, willbender copied us and is better than us, and people cried because for once we didnt get the nerfed version, if i get a virtuoso dagger weapon that decimates in a 360° area im fine and ill love it, as long as i can play my class, have fun, and feel a bit different, wich legends do by the way, make revs feel diferent, im fine copying and having similar things to other classes.

[Zaret.1450]

For those confused on my other comment, what if we got a dagger like virtuoso or a scepter that worked like guardian or specter ones? how many people would cry in the name of uniqueness? thats why i said a lot of things before.

read carefully and youll understand if you main rev.

[captrowdy.9561]

Your Not thinking about dev time. So many other things they need to spend time on. It would be cool for the next expansion. They would have to develop a new weapon for each class.  Necro literally has the same problem if you want to play melee your pretty much forced to be a reaper. 

[Angesombre.4630]

The problem is that the hammer could be good despite its slowness but the skill 2 is really poor and it is the only distance weapon especially from core revenant. There is no other option at distance. Even "Forced Engagement" was so nerfed. We need to start looking at the elite specializations to find some distance in the targeted skills.

[Zaret.1450]

10 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

Your Not thinking about dev time. So many other things they need to spend time on. It would be cool for the next expansion. They would have to develop a new weapon for each class.  Necro literally has the same problem if you want to play melee your pretty much forced to be a reaper. 

The thing is, ranged weapons work on nelee range, but melee weapons dont work at range, i think you understand what mean with that.

As for dev time, game balance, and classes being good is something very important, no need to have things now, but as i allwais say, they should talk more about what theyre planning, next class that will get big changes, quality of life changes planned, how they rotate the best classes, except fb because that never leaves 1 slot in most places.

 

[Kulvar.1239]

Issue is that the weapons are tied to legends.

Sword/Sword = Shiro
Hammer = Jalis
Mace/Axe = Mallyx
Staff = Ventari
Shield = Brill
Shortbow = Kalla
Greatsword = Archemorus/St Viktor

Unless you add a new core legend with a new weapon, it won't be.

[Kulvar.1239]

7 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

The problem is that the hammer could be good despite its slowness but the skill 2 is really poor and it is the only distance weapon especially from core revenant. There is no other option at distance. Even "Forced Engagement" was so nerfed. We need to start looking at the elite specializations to find some distance in the targeted skills.

Hammer 2 is excellent in WvW zerg though.

[Spucke.4163]

maybe try another class if you prefer ranged weapons?

[Angesombre.4630]

3 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Hammer 2 is excellent in WvW zerg though.

It's not the damage of the hammer that I'm questioning or the distance, but the fact that you can't use it in close combat for skill 2.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Kulvar.1239]

4 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

It's not the damage of the hammer that I'm questioning or the distance, but the fact that you can't use it in close combat for skill 2.

Do you use a browser translator ? Quote is completely messed up. WvW became MvM.

It's not meant for melee, you have swords for melee. Much better use of your energy.