New adrenaline option F2 defiance bar ; extra option in combat.

[Tipsy.5802]

I've been playing the warrior for several weeks now & since feedback was desired in the balance Philosophy  topic,I though about the class I currently play &

how the warrior could be given more options during battle..

The idea is that the warrior would gain a second way to utilize their built-up adrenaline (their basic profession mechanic) for a more defensive purpose as a sort of defiance bar .

So you'd have the F1 that uses built up adrenaline as burst attack(as we know it)

F2 would be the defensive option with the defiance bar ,the strength depending on the level of built up adrenaline.

Maybe there could be a downside that the warrior could no longer gain adrenaline as long as the defiance bar is up.  & maybe the defiance bar would slowly decrease over time;

like the adrenaline bar does out of combat.

This gives the warrior more to work with/more options during combat & to adapt according to the situation.
So they have to choose in any given situation to use their adrenaline for offensive or defensive purposes. I think this would add great depth to the warrior as the warrior would need to make choices in battle depending on the situation he/she is in.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Tipsy.5802
word not needed/some extra clarification

[Infusion.7149]

Spellbreaker already has a F2 as does Bladesworn and Berserker. Are you suggesting this for core warrior only?

You basically do have a defiance bar when you run Balanced Stance.

[Tipsy.5802]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Spellbreaker already has a F2 as does Bladesworn and Berserker. Are you suggesting this for core warrior only?

You basically do have a defiance bar when you run Balanced Stance.

Then defiance would be F3 for spellbreaker,berserker and bladesworn.

Balanced stance https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balanced_Stance
only offers stability ,swiftness,boon & breaks stun .Nothing like defiance imo.

Defiance bar on the other hand would be like a "burst version" of endure pain in the form of second defensive health bar. Maybe there could be a downside of entering that mode too
afterwards ,10 secs susceptible afterwards as a form of exhaustion if it is taken down by damage. Maybe ties in with the "bad choices" that can be made & "interesting new options" during combat they touched upon in the balance phylosophy stream.

Defiance bar would indeed allow warriors to utilize their adrenaline in a different manner-so an addition to the core mechanic of the warrior
That would therefore probably apply to all specializations as well in form of an F3 
Defiance bar fits the whole physical /visceral focused theme of the warrior & giving defiance bar to them would sweeten the deal of being one imo

Because I love playing the warrior,yet feel something is missing when it comes to the options during combat.
Maybe defiance could also add another interesting mechanic when considering the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vengeance_(skill) downed skill vengeance... If the warrior can only enter defiance mode if cap of adrenaline is reached. Defiance could increase the chance that they'd rally too.Instead of dropping dead after using vengeance. So it could make warrior combat dynamics more interesting even in downed state too perhaps.

Or the rally chance could be influenced by the threshold at which defiance was activated.
So like 5 procent increase chance to rally if defiance was activated when bar one of adrenaline was reached.Or 20 when defiance was activated at cap.
20 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Tipsy.5802
spacing

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Any F2 should be extra bursts on 2Handers and burst for off hand weapons.

[Tipsy.5802]

Damage burst is always what F1 is for on any given weapon & it could very well be that it needs a small buff.But if that is the case ,it's a matter on its own (other topic) that should buff the burst.

 

Defiance F2 would be expansion of the core warrior mechanic,allowing more options in battle ,since adrenaline can only be utilized for burst damage atm. and often the bar keeps sitting at cap without any benefit really. So I see the need for a new way to utilize that adrenaline in a way that would fit the identity of the warrior;

"

"rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle. Adrenaline fuels their offensive power—the longer warriors stay in a fight, the more dangerous they become." So defiance fits right in there that they have high endurance & become more dangerous the longer they stay in battle.

Defiance allowing the warrior to adapt more in battle & has more choice & options available to utilize the adrenaline in the way the warrior sees fit in a given battle situation.

 

Defiance could become more powerful each stage of adrenaline
So activating defiance F2 at full adrenaline stage 3 could grant the warrior a locked defiance bar for 10 secs on F2 , chance to rally increased by 20 procent using vengeance in downed mode.
At stage 2 it would grant a half full defiance bar ,chance to rally increased by 10 procent using vengeance in downed mode.
At stage 1 it would only grant a quarter of a defiance bar, chance to rally increased by 5 procent using vengeance in downed mode

.

Unlike stability, defiance would be more of a second healthbar that starts to break down for every active negative effect on the warrior during activation &
 like the defiance bar it would "eat up"all the incoming ones ,turning them into might/swiftness or so.(hence them becoming more dangerous the longer they fight & the higher stage adrenaline,the stronger the defiance bar)

The same downsides after defiance is broken would apply though;

"

When players break an enemy's defiance by fully depleting the Defiance bar, one or more of the following will happen:

• Interrupts or stops their current action (most common effect)
• Applies https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/9/97/Stun.png/20px-Stun.png Stun, causing them to stagger for a few seconds
• Applies https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/3/36/Knockdown.png/20px-Knockdown.png Knockdown
• Applies https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/6/6b/Exposed.png/20px-Exposed.png Exposed, causing them to take 10% additional strike damage and 20% additional condition damage for 10 seconds
• "

 

So enemies would have to consider carefully when to apply conditions & cc on the warrior & when that is a bad mistake.
And in a way defiance bar would "boost damage" maybe too ,as you cannot be interrupted.So using defiance wisely,it could then be a damage boost considering active fight uptime it would grant.
The only downside is no burst when going for F2 then,instead of the F1 burst option.

And the warrior itself has to consider carefully when to use f1 for burst of f2 for defiance, as they will be more vulnerable after defiance bar breaks. But if they just need survivability in a given moment, it might be a risk worth taking-or bad mistake if they activate defiance too early & a stronger boss comes around when they are exposed then.Like that Steve chainsaw boss in the halloween labyrinth. 

 

But so both the warrior & their enemies have to make certain choices in combat.
 

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, Tipsy.5802 said:

Then defiance would be F3 for spellbreaker,berserker and bladesworn.

Balanced stance https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balanced_Stance
only offers stability ,swiftness,boon & breaks stun .Nothing like defiance imo.

Defiance bar on the other hand would be like a "burst version" of endure pain in the form of second defensive health bar. Maybe there could be a downside of entering that mode too
afterwards ,10 secs susceptible afterwards as a form of exhaustion if it is taken down by damage. Maybe ties in with the "bad choices" that can be made & "interesting new options" during combat they touched upon in the balance phylosophy stream.

Defiance bar would indeed allow warriors to utilize their adrenaline in a different manner-so an addition to the core mechanic of the warrior
That would therefore probably apply to all specializations as well in form of an F3 
Defiance bar fits the whole physical /visceral focused theme of the warrior & giving defiance bar to them would sweeten the deal of being one imo

Because I love playing the warrior,yet feel something is missing when it comes to the options during combat.
Maybe defiance could also add another interesting mechanic when considering the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vengeance_(skill) downed skill vengeance... If the warrior can only enter defiance mode if cap of adrenaline is reached. Defiance could increase the chance that they'd rally too.Instead of dropping dead after using vengeance. So it could make warrior combat dynamics more interesting even in downed state too perhaps.

Or the rally chance could be influenced by the threshold at which defiance was activated.
So like 5 procent increase chance to rally if defiance was activated when bar one of adrenaline was reached.Or 20 when defiance was activated at cap.
20 

Defiance bar is CC resistance. i.e. stability
Defiance bar does not function similar to endure pain which leaves you vulnerable to control effects while negating damage

What balanced stance does is pulse stability so it gives you the same CC resistance as a defiance bar since you are immune to being boon ripped a single time. This is in contrast to Dolyak Stance.

[Zuko.7132]

If we were to give core war an f2, I would want either a unique second burst for 2 handers and a burst for offhand weapons, or, if that’s too much work, a stunbreak that grants vigor at tier 1, vigor and prot at tier 2, and vigor, prot, and stab at tier 3.

[Tipsy.5802]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Defiance bar is CC resistance. i.e. stability
Defiance bar does not function similar to endure pain which leaves you vulnerable to control effects while negating damage

What balanced stance does is pulse stability so it gives you the same CC resistance as a defiance bar since you are immune to being boon ripped a single time. This is in contrast to Dolyak Stance.

Perhaps it's not so easy since the fine details about how defiance bar would exactly function for warrior are still out in the open & not defined at all.

 

In a way the warrior defiance bar could function more like the necromancers death shroud;adding extra layer of defense- 
But instead be physical themed that allows them to block more & counters a procent of incoming damage too perhaps,depending on the adrenaline stage at which defiance is activated.
The stage of adrenaline at which defiance bar is activated at,would determine how effective the defiance bar is exactly(so it doesn't become op)
(for examples see above & also the downsides would be similar to those of overworld boss after the defiance bar is taken down,so it could have similarites to the overworld boss defiance bar,but
still function a little different)

In terms of "utility skills" i mentioned "Endure pain" as I view defiance bar for warrior more as second health bar that is as effective as the stage of adrenaline you accumilated. This would not be a utility but alteration to the core mechanic.

utility;
" Take no damage from attacks. You are still susceptible to conditions and control effects." endure pain
"Stance. Gain stability and swiftness on an interval. Become immune to critical hits." Balance stance.
Defiance bar for warriors does not have to be identical to the defiance bar for overworld bosses though;tit could be a core mechanic that adopts some elements of balanced stance & endure pain.. 
(again finer details not yet defined for warrior defiance bar)
The main idea (and most important for now) is that a warrior would be able to use their adrenaline in a more defensive manner too when things get tough,next to the burst option;so all about combat options-
And a more diverse usage of adrenaline. As I feel the warrior is a little lacking.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Tipsy.5802

[Tipsy.5802]

14 minutes ago, Zuko.7132 said:

If we were to give core war an f2, I would want either a unique second burst for 2 handers and a burst for offhand weapons, or, if that’s too much work, a stunbreak that grants vigor at tier 1, vigor and prot at tier 2, and vigor, prot, and stab at tier 3.

Great suggestion about the vigor. As I said in previous post,the finer details for defiance F2 are still out in the open.
I guess more dodging is good too... also blends in with the acrobatic/physical nature of the class. Pushing themselves to the limit physically

Perhaps "aegis" too as it would be the F skill for going on the defense

Edited October 29, 2022 by Tipsy.5802

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

This conversation has been going on since the game came out with people trying to get warrior an F2.

There was a post recently about warrior always having to rely on unhealthy gimmicks which is true. The actual solution, imo, is definitely an F2 or even an F3. Warrior always needed something else to spend adrenaline on defensively or in a support sense. Tactics is okay with soldiers focus but would open up if there was a burst dedicated to defense or support.

But I doubt it will happen. That's a lot of work for anet.

[Potato Slayer.3107]

On 10/29/2022 at 11:19 AM, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

This conversation has been going on since the game came out with people trying to get warrior an F2.

There was a post recently about warrior always having to rely on unhealthy gimmicks which is true. The actual solution, imo, is definitely an F2 or even an F3. Warrior always needed something else to spend adrenaline on defensively or in a support sense. Tactics is okay with soldiers focus but would open up if there was a burst dedicated to defense or support.

But I doubt it will happen. That's a lot of work for anet.

They have added F2 to core revenant and vindicator.

 

It would just need to be something simple like a stunbreak, block, or instant adrenaline or combination thereof. Something like Auspicious Parry or Battle Rage or Defy Pain or any other adrenaline stance throwback.

[oscuro.9720]

Similarly, F2 could be a barrier. Simple but adds some heft. Basically, gain barrier based on how many bars of adrenaline consumed. This would build in an auto-trigger for on-burst traits (since it is successfully happening by granting you barrier and isn’t predicated on hitting someone), give additional heft to core Warrior so it can be more of a bruiser-type, and properly set Warrior up to function with an F1 and F2, as all the especs do presently. 
This would keep the mechanic fairly simple, yet impactful, especially when combined with traits.
Just a random idea off the top of my head. 

[Infusion.7149]

On 10/29/2022 at 12:54 PM, Tipsy.5802 said:

Perhaps it's not so easy since the fine details about how defiance bar would exactly function for warrior are still out in the open & not defined at all.

 

In a way the warrior defiance bar could function more like the necromancers death shroud;adding extra layer of defense- 
But instead be physical themed that allows them to block more & counters a procent of incoming damage too perhaps,depending on the adrenaline stage at which defiance is activated.
The stage of adrenaline at which defiance bar is activated at,would determine how effective the defiance bar is exactly(so it doesn't become op)
(for examples see above & also the downsides would be similar to those of overworld boss after the defiance bar is taken down,so it could have similarites to the overworld boss defiance bar,but
still function a little different)

In terms of "utility skills" i mentioned "Endure pain" as I view defiance bar for warrior more as second health bar that is as effective as the stage of adrenaline you accumilated. This would not be a utility but alteration to the core mechanic.

utility;
" Take no damage from attacks. You are still susceptible to conditions and control effects." endure pain
"Stance. Gain stability and swiftness on an interval. Become immune to critical hits." Balance stance.
Defiance bar for warriors does not have to be identical to the defiance bar for overworld bosses though;tit could be a core mechanic that adopts some elements of balanced stance & endure pain.. 
(again finer details not yet defined for warrior defiance bar)
The main idea (and most important for now) is that a warrior would be able to use their adrenaline in a more defensive manner too when things get tough,next to the burst option;so all about combat options-
And a more diverse usage of adrenaline. As I feel the warrior is a little lacking.

A second health bar is shroud or barrier. I don't understand why you use the word defiance bar when that is exclusively referring to PVE bosses and players in WVW with a keep/tower tactics banner such as Dragon Banner , Centaur Banner, or Turtle Banner.

The suggestion above by oscuro makes more sense for core warrior.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Opopanax.1803]

On 10/29/2022 at 1:19 PM, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

This conversation has been going on since the game came out with people trying to get warrior an F2.

There was a post recently about warrior always having to rely on unhealthy gimmicks which is true. The actual solution, imo, is definitely an F2 or even an F3. Warrior always needed something else to spend adrenaline on defensively or in a support sense. Tactics is okay with soldiers focus but would open up if there was a burst dedicated to defense or support.

But I doubt it will happen. That's a lot of work for anet.

I like this, and yes, a defensive F2 for core has been petitioned since the beginning of the game 10 years ago.  

I'm not sure what the answer is as far as the skill goes, but a defensive F2 makes a ton of sense so that warrior can be defensive or offensive at it's core and add some more variety than "more dps!".  

[Potato Slayer.3107]

F2 Core and Offhand skills

 

Maybe one day if they listen to feedback.

[Tipsy.5802]

16 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't understand why you use the word defiance bar when that is exclusively referring to PVE bosses and players in WVW with a keep/tower tactics banner such as Dragon Banner , Centaur Banner, or Turtle Banner.

The suggestion above by oscuro makes more sense for core warrior.

I call it defiance bar for 2 reasons;

-I think the defiance bar boss mechanic you encounter all over the place in guildwars 2 would fit perfectly for the warrior ,so kinda want to see a form of it adopted for the warrior
Just because it's cool & sweet,fits the warrior perfectly imo & would make it more appealing to role with one.

 

-Barrier is not part of the core mechanic of the warrior & can only be applied by those who run a warhorn.
& thus the strength of the effect is not influenced by the adrenaline stage. (the effect strength not influenced by adrenaline stage & warhorn barrier also applies it to others & not only themselves? Defiance bar would be inherent & more "selfish" to the warrior perhaps than barrier)
The mechanic of defiance bar would be more similar to that of overworld bosses & the adrenaline bar depleting out of combat & would probably
not have a fixed time of 5 seconds like barrier.

So defiance bar would be part of the core profession mechanic of the warrior,while barrier is just a weapon effect of the warhorn.
+ the defiance bar could also reduce the effectiveness of incoming cc ,grant more blocks of incoming damage ,or boons like aegis or vigor granting more dodge rolls. A damage reflection maybe even if activated at stage 3 adrenaline,....,....
So it is way more complex than "just an additional health bar that takes the damage prior to the health bar"; (barrier)

 

and maybe a third reason if a more defensive f2 has been petitioned since the beginning,like Opopana mentions above

Edited November 1, 2022 by Tipsy.5802

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

To me any core F2 should be secondary bursts from the equipped weapon sets and should fill in gaps in the sets.

Like GS gets a 2s knockdown.
Hammer gets a damage skill, applying more if the target is crippled
Shield and Warhorn could provide AoE defense/support
OH Sword could have a torment version of flurry, but not rooted.
OH Axe could have an AoE cleave that also evades.

Things like that.

[Tipsy.5802]

25 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

To me any core F2 should be secondary bursts from the equipped weapon sets and should fill in gaps in the sets.

Like GS gets a 2s knockdown.
Hammer gets a damage skill, applying more if the target is crippled
Shield and Warhorn could provide AoE defense/support
OH Sword could have a torment version of flurry, but not rooted.
OH Axe could have an AoE cleave that also evades.

Things like that.

in my opinion that is a nice idea that should be added to the standard f1 burst button

"Warriors are masters of weaponry who rely on speed strength(all burst stuff & additional nice ideas for it covered in f1), toughness"(the tough /defensive side covered in f2) 

or option 3 ; auras maybe that equip similiar to the revenant legends maybe.But different idea/topic;

 

There are plenty of options for them & ways they could go to rebalance/redesign the warrior.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Tipsy.5802

[Potato Slayer.3107]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

To me any core F2 should be secondary bursts from the equipped weapon sets and should fill in gaps in the sets.

Like GS gets a 2s knockdown.
Hammer gets a damage skill, applying more if the target is crippled
Shield and Warhorn could provide AoE defense/support
OH Sword could have a torment version of flurry, but not rooted.
OH Axe could have an AoE cleave that also evades.

Things like that.

The problem is the amount of dev work to implement additional attack skills. Instant buff effects are easier to implement, like what we see they did with revenant. 

Greatsword CC should get an upward launch on skill 5 similar to daredevil elite, giving how telegraphed and hard it is to land.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Potato Slayer.3107

[Potato Slayer.3107]

2 hours ago, Tipsy.5802 said:

I call it defiance bar for 2 reasons;

-I think the defiance bar boss mechanic you encounter all over the place in guildwars 2 would fit perfectly for the warrior ,so kinda want to see a form of it adopted for the warrior
Just because it's cool & sweet,fits the warrior perfectly imo & would make it more appealing to role with one.

 

-Barrier is not part of the core mechanic of the warrior & can only be applied by those who run a warhorn.
& thus the strength of the effect is not influenced by the adrenaline stage. (the effect strength not influenced by adrenaline stage & warhorn barrier also applies it to others & not only themselves? Defiance bar would be inherent & more "selfish" to the warrior perhaps than barrier)
The mechanic of defiance bar would be more similar to that of overworld bosses & the adrenaline bar depleting out of combat & would probably
not have a fixed time of 5 seconds like barrier.

So defiance bar would be part of the core profession mechanic of the warrior,while barrier is just a weapon effect of the warhorn.
+ the defiance bar could also reduce the effectiveness of incoming cc ,grant more blocks of incoming damage ,or boons like aegis or vigor granting more dodge rolls. A damage reflection maybe even if activated at stage 3 adrenaline,....,....
So it is way more complex than "just an additional health bar that takes the damage prior to the health bar"; (barrier)

 

and maybe a third reason if a more defensive f2 has been petitioned since the beginning,like Opopana mentions above

I like this idea, but I think it would fit better into a new specialization than trying to make work around core. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Potato Slayer.3107 said:

The problem is the amount of dev work to implement additional attack skills. Instant buff effects are easier to implement, like what we see they did with revenant. 

Greatsword CC should get an upward launch on skill 5 similar to daredevil elite, giving how telegraphed and hard it is to land.

I don't care. I'd rather not have a crappy F2 that adds 0 depth of play.

[Infusion.7149]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:06 AM, Tipsy.5802 said:

I call it defiance bar for 2 reasons;

-I think the defiance bar boss mechanic you encounter all over the place in guildwars 2 would fit perfectly for the warrior ,so kinda want to see a form of it adopted for the warrior
Just because it's cool & sweet,fits the warrior perfectly imo & would make it more appealing to role with one.

 

-Barrier is not part of the core mechanic of the warrior & can only be applied by those who run a warhorn.
& thus the strength of the effect is not influenced by the adrenaline stage. (the effect strength not influenced by adrenaline stage & warhorn barrier also applies it to others & not only themselves? Defiance bar would be inherent & more "selfish" to the warrior perhaps than barrier)
The mechanic of defiance bar would be more similar to that of overworld bosses & the adrenaline bar depleting out of combat & would probably
not have a fixed time of 5 seconds like barrier.

So defiance bar would be part of the core profession mechanic of the warrior,while barrier is just a weapon effect of the warhorn.
+ the defiance bar could also reduce the effectiveness of incoming cc ,grant more blocks of incoming damage ,or boons like aegis or vigor granting more dodge rolls. A damage reflection maybe even if activated at stage 3 adrenaline,....,....
So it is way more complex than "just an additional health bar that takes the damage prior to the health bar"; (barrier)

 

and maybe a third reason if a more defensive f2 has been petitioned since the beginning,like Opopana mentions above

Defiance bar doesn't stop a boss or player from taking damage.

Therefore I still don't understand why you keep calling your idea that.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

I might be talking out of my behind here, but i don't think the issue is that we lack options. The issue is that the options we have aren't good enough.

I've been thinking for a while about this and...doesn't feel like that for a profession that has two limiters ( Cooldowns and Adrenaline ) compared to the one limiter of the other professions ( Cooldown/Initiative for Thief, i can't speak for Rev, i don't play Rev ), the bursts should be...better?

I think they're passable, the good weapons have decent bursts (GS ), some bursts are great but tied to weak weapons ( Bow ) or are too specific to a function to perform good at other game modes ( Hammer/Mace, less now that we get quick from CCing things, but still ), and some are just atrocious ( Sword, Axe, altho the weapon itself is great ), but i think the big issue is that Bursts aren't adding to our potential as much as they are complementing it.

What i mean is: If you remove the bursts from the weapons, they don't really stand alone. The bursts aren't a "reward" that you get for good adrenaline management. They're a mechanic that Anet balanced the weapons around without really realizing how clunky the mechanic itself would feel to play with. And in practice, it feels like a punishment, having to manage two resources ( cooldowns/adrenaline again ) to do something that doesn't reward you per se, it just punishes you if you don't use it.

Maybe this is a conceptual discordance i have, i don't know, but i think Bursts should be rewarding. I think the weapons by themselves should be good, and the bursts are the reward you get for good management with said weapons.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

What if we had 5 bursts for each weapon set, each skill with it's own adrenaline, and each skill only depleted its adrenaline (throwback to OG GW1 warrior).

Then we would be on par with the other professions.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

9 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

What if we had 5 bursts for each weapon set, each skill with it's own adrenaline, and each skill only depleted its adrenaline (throwback to OG GW1 warrior).

Then we would be on par with the other professions.

I think we would be better than them, but not like i care that much for class balance anymore, this is GW2. There will always be a golden child.

I think 3 bars is enough. 5 skills for each weapon set is kinda going overboard. But i like the idea of each bar of adrenaline being a new skill, and you choose which one to use as a f1/2/3? Like Age of Reckoning where you had Morale Powers and 3 or 4 tiers.

That would require adrenaline to be rebalanced, and so the weapons. The weapons would have to be buffed across the board and the adrenaline gain would have to be nerfed to play off the idea that it's a big cooldown with a big payoff but you're not dependant on it?

Edited November 3, 2022 by Shadowpeixera.2918