Hot Take: Celestial Herald is the most underrated roamer

[Dahkeus.8243]

Been playing Cele Herald for a bit, but since the most recent changes that have provided the below changes, I think Cele Herald is now matched only by Willbender for the top roamed spot.  Recent changes that make this build pop off are:

1) Swap sigils affect legend swap once again

2) Mace 3 has two ammo charges now for more damage and double blast

3) Torment was buffed overall

 

This build has probably been a bit under rated overall for a while, but the damage has been an Achilles heel.  The recent changes have taken this tanky/mobile build and set it on the path of one of the best roamers while still being the most un-recognized roamed builds.

 

For clarification, here's the build:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmABkex7lxQKMPyi1RXMOCjRSiMCqgjqUX7F-z1IY1on/UiUBUpIoTJQvCBJ/BGkEUqHyWo/sCA-w

 

Yes, it's not immune to condis.  Yes, it doesn't have stab.  No, you don't need those things to have a competitive or even meta level roaming build.  And no, I am not saying this is "the best" roaming build, but it's near the top and performs better than even most people here think it does. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Dahkeus.8243

[captrowdy.9561]

Can you not tell people. I’ve been having a blast on it. I imagine most are confused when they see a rev come at them with a axe and mace. 

[SleepyBat.9034]

18 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Been playing Cele Herald for a bit, but since the most recent changes that have provided the below changes, I think Cele Herald is now matched only by Willbender for the top roamed spot.  Recent changes that make this build pop off are:

1) Swap sigils affect legend swap once again

2) Mace 3 has two ammo charges now for more damage and double blast

3) Torment was buffed overall

 

This build has probably been a bit under rated overall for a while, but the damage has been an Achilles heel.  The recent changes have taken this tanky/mobile build and set it on the path of one of the best roamers while still being the most un-recognized roamed builds.

Hmm, no I don't think so. I would be surprised if it even made top 5.

[Buran.3796]

   Is strong, and scales for better as the size of the skirmish grows (better at 3 vs 3 than 2 vs 2 than 1 vs 1), and for sure is good at 1 vs n when the foes are inexperienced, BUT struggles vs enemies with high ranged damage and a mix of mobility/stealth, as Deadeye and some Mesmers amd Soulbeast.

   So: very good, yes; the absolute best? Nope. Can flip a fully upgraded camp in seconds, tho.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Buran.3796

[Dahkeus.8243]

4 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Hmm, no I don't think so. I would be surprised if it even made top 5.

 

Why?  What do you think it lacks?

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

 

Why?  What do you think it lacks?

Buran left a pretty good summary of what it lacks. 
 

Honestly the build isn’t bad, but it’s not even close to where it was even with the recent buffs. It’s not back at the level it was at during its best years when it had full condi resistance or tormenting runes and it notably wasn’t the best of the best back then either; it still had very clear weaknesses to mobile classes/builds with high burst. It still has those same weaknesses now, but also performs drastically worse against condi (if it doesn’t get a good transfer) since the resistance changes 

Edited November 3, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Dahkeus.8243]

Not sure how you find range and mobility as a difficulty.  Shiro and axe 4 stick to targets better than many other big roamer builds and the reveal negates most stealth.  Condi’s been the strongest counter along with the heavy blocks of a good Willbender.  Mesmers can be tough, but haven’t struggled against any thief spec.  Rangers, necros, and warrior are often the easiest to deal with.  
 

 

[Dahkeus.8243]

5 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Is strong, and scales for better as the size of the skirmish grows (better at 3 vs 3 than 2 vs 2 than 1 vs 1), and for sure is good at 1 vs n when the foes are inexperienced, BUT struggles vs enemies with high ranged damage and a mix of mobility/stealth, as Deadeye and some Mesmers amd SAoulbeast.

   So: very good, yes; the absolute best? Nope. Can flip a fully upgraded camp in seconds, tho.

Yea, no one here said it was the “best”.  
 

It’s definitely not the best from a pure dueling perspective, but as an all around roamer, it’s a beast.  It can handle outnumbered situations well, chase down running enemies better than almost anything else, and as you mentioned, handle flipping camps with ease, regardless of level or number of mercenaries there.

[SleepyBat.9034]

15 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

 

Why?  What do you think it lacks?

Its mobility is a bit limited as are its stunbreaks which makes it easy to lock down. It would depend on which rune you are running but rev has rather low condition cleanse. It actually looks pretty solid now that I've taken a closer look at it, the main reason I said it isn't even in top 5 is because of how bloated many of the new elite specs are currently, classes like harbinger, willbender, virtuoso, mechanist, and catalyst have some really broken builds currently.

[phokus.8934]

3 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Its mobility is a bit limited as are its stunbreaks which makes it easy to lock down. It would depend on which rune you are running but rev has rather low condition cleanse. It actually looks pretty solid now that I've taken a closer look at it, the main reason I said it isn't even in top 5 is because of how bloated many of the new elite specs are currently, classes like harbinger, willbender, virtuoso, mechanist, and catalyst have some really broken builds currently.

What Virtuoso build is broken?  Because that doesn't exist.

[SleepyBat.9034]

3 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

What Virtuoso build is broken?  Because that doesn't exist.

I wouldn't know which build is the most broken because I don't play mesmer but I know they got something broken because I've fought them before.

[phokus.8934]

5 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I wouldn't know which build is the most broken because I don't play mesmer but I know they got something broken because I've fought them before.

Virtuoso is definitely not broken.  If you're referring to condi then you just block/dodge/cleanse their F2 and that's it.

[Dahkeus.8243]

3 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Its mobility is a bit limited as are its stunbreaks which makes it easy to lock down. It would depend on which rune you are running but rev has rather low condition cleanse. It actually looks pretty solid now that I've taken a closer look at it, the main reason I said it isn't even in top 5 is because of how bloated many of the new elite specs are currently, classes like harbinger, willbender, virtuoso, mechanist, and catalyst have some really broken builds currently.

 

How do you see mobility as limited in this build?  Are you looking at a Mallyx build?  Unless you're flipping camps, shiro is the superior choice.  Disengage isn't as strong as something like a Willbender, but sticking to targets should never be an issue, particularly with all the chill spam. 

 

Condition cleanse is the weakest part of this build, but it's not weak enough to keep it from being a very solid choice.  Again, not arguing that it's "the best", but highly underrated.

[Buran.3796]

15 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Not sure how you find range and mobility as a difficulty.  Shiro and axe 4 stick to targets better than many other big roamer builds and the reveal negates most stealth. 

   Shadow Meld hardcounters Gaze of Darkness and while the mobility of the celestial Herald can put a fight vs Thieves that rely solely on stealth or solely on mobility and mele skills fighting thieves which mix both is really hard and if is against a ranged build as rifle Deadeye or condi pistol then the fight is bananas...

   Best case scenario is that if the thief isn't very good it will try to either reset the fight or just leave, but if is really good will probably run/stealth/teleport  in circles poking us at safe range while we waste energy chasing. Shiro + Glint has the advantage of mobility over Mallyx Glint that can ensure beter chases, but once in range then it can't cc enough to grant the kill, whereas the later (Mallyx variant) has potential to cc combo to get the kill but has worse chasing potential. Shiro reaches but doesn't combo, Mallyx comboes but rarely reaches.  In larger than 1 v 1 scenarios Mallyx has the upper hand due better AoE and because doesn't have to chase the evasive dudes but to focus in the slower players.

   To some extent we are lucky that years of isolation of Thieves in WvW made them mostly solo roamers reluctant to play with others (there's exceptions, as Orden de Sombras from Baruch Bay), because if as a norm they were gregarious patrols of 2-3 Deadeyes or Virtuosos would destroy almost everything in small scale WvW roaming...

   But yes again, celestial Herald is great in WvW. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Buran.3796

[captrowdy.9561]

Maybe I’m doing something wrong but I have a cleanse sigil on each weapon set. That’s the reason I was so bothered when the nerfed the sigil on legand swap. I’m I missing out on something by doing this?

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

22 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Yea, no one here said it was the “best”.  
 

It’s definitely not the best from a pure dueling perspective, but as an all around roamer, it’s a beast.  It can handle outnumbered situations well, chase down running enemies better than almost anything else, and as you mentioned, handle flipping camps with ease, regardless of level or number of mercenaries there.

You probably should specify in your OP that you’re discussing the Shiro variant then. Most when they think of condi herald (even cele variants) are thinking of glint/mallyx. 
 

so yes, if you take Shiro you can deal with mobile foes better (however any equivalent skill level thief is still a counter and Mesmer becomes a lot harder to deal with condi variants), but by doing that you lose a lot of sustain and the ability to potentially delete condi builds. So it’s 100% a near equivalent trade off. Mallyx is also better for small group (and large scale) skirmishes whereas Shiro adds little value to those encounters. Shiro is probably better 1v1 overall, but the fact that mallyx performs better in 1vX, in group, and against condi to me is far more worthwhile overall 

Both Shiro and Mallyx variants have clear weaknesses which honestly makes me think they’re fairly balanced or only “above average”

edit: for what it’s worth, Shiro condi Rev also gets bodied by the Mallyx mirror matchup 

Edited November 4, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Shiro reaches but doesn't combo, Mallyx comboes but rarely reaches.  In larger than 1 v 1 scenarios Mallyx has the upper hand due better AoE and because doesn't have to chase the evasive dudes but to focus in the slower players.

This is a really good, concise explanation of why cHerald has always had clear and defined counters, even at its best 

[Dahkeus.8243]

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

You probably should specify in your OP that you’re discussing the Shiro variant then. Most when they think of condi herald (even cele variants) are thinking of glint/mallyx. 
 

so yes, if you take Shiro you can deal with mobile foes better (however any equivalent skill level thief is still a counter and Mesmer becomes a lot harder to deal with condi variants), but by doing that you lose a lot of sustain and the ability to potentially delete condi builds. So it’s 100% a near equivalent trade off. Mallyx is also better for small group (and large scale) skirmishes whereas Shiro adds little value to those encounters. Shiro is probably better 1v1 overall, but the fact that mallyx performs better in 1vX, in group, and against condi to me is far more worthwhile overall 

Both Shiro and Mallyx variants have clear weaknesses which honestly makes me think they’re fairly balanced or only “above average”

edit: for what it’s worth, Shiro condi Rev also gets bodied by the Mallyx mirror matchup 

There’s literally only one place online with this build posted, which is GuildJen, and it’s the Shiro build.  
 

But this is largely what I mean by under-rated.  Most people here probably haven’t even ran this build since back when Resistance worked differently.  It’s not even posted anywhere except for GuildJen and it’s basically left there from when Vallun made a vid about it 2 years ago! 
 

People here are not picking about it not having the perfect setup against everything while ignoring the fact that it’s better than *most* builds posted for roaming.
 

So, let me give some clarification for anyone who doesn’t know the build:  

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmABkex7lxQKMPyi1RXMOCjRSiMCqgjqUX7F-z1IY1on/UiUBUpIoTJQvCBJ/BGkEUqHyWo/sCA-w

Mesmers can be tough as can good Willbenders.  Thieves aren’t too difficult unless you’re just completely out in the open.  Rangers, warriors, engineers, and necros are food unless they outnumber you, regardless of build.

[Virdo.1540]

oh the guildjen build... It was good years ago when it got posted... when it was able to hold 25might. Now it has ok mobility, ok-ish burst damage (bad sustained), ok-ish sustain. No stab, low amount of stunbreaks and shiro pulls all your energy with one skill. And even with sigil of cleansing, rune of antitoxin and shield, its cleanses are very limited if you look at some of the current main roaming classes (Harbinger, Virtuoso, Mech ,rene and condi SBs/Druids), because those are literally spamming almost everything at you.

Playable? yes. Is it good? Yes, but id say in School marks its just barely a 2-. Are there better & easier specs to play for roaming? Yes, definitely.

But hey, at least its fun & thats the main thing someone should concentrate on.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Virdo.1540

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

There’s literally only one place online with this build posted, which is GuildJen, and it’s the Shiro build.  
 

But this is largely what I mean by under-rated.  Most people here probably haven’t even ran this build since back when Resistance worked differently.  It’s not even posted anywhere except for GuildJen and it’s basically left there from when Vallun made a vid about it 2 years ago!

I'm confused by your logic here; a streamer posted a build which happens to use Celestial stats, so you assume any "Celestial Herald" is just that build? Considering the fact that Celestial is a stat type and not just a reference to some random streamer's build you absolutely shouldn't be surprised when no one has any idea that you're talking about some random build posted by a streamer. Glint/Mallyx has always been able to be run as Celestial as well, even if Trailblazer tended to be the choice. Ever since they gave it boon duration though, Celestial has been an equivalent choice for Mallyx variants as well.

In fact, in cHerald's hayday in WvW, no one was ever talking about the "Celestial Shiro" variant (this variant was really only relevant in PvP for a moment). The conversation in WvW almost always centered on True Nature Mallyx, Resistance, and Runes of Torment, so always the Mallyx variants. Given this, it's not surprising that a bunch of people are commenting "celestial herald has low mobility" when it's typically run with Mallyx and not Shiro, despite some random youtube vid posted years ago.

 

1 hour ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

People here are not picking about it not having the perfect setup against everything while ignoring the fact that it’s better than *most* builds posted for roaming.

Mesmers can be tough as can good Willbenders.  Thieves aren’t too difficult unless you’re just completely out in the open.  Rangers, warriors, engineers, and necros are food unless they outnumber you, regardless of build.

I think you're too focused on what's "posted" and what's actually good and/or what people are actually playing. There are tons of builds and build variations that exist that aren't posted. For example, looking at Metabattle's version of Glint/Mallyx roamer is questionable due to weird weapon choice for roaming. The build posted there is not the usual build that most top players were running and isn't the superior version of the build at all in WvW roaming. The fact that Celestial stats aren't even mentioned as an option for the build, despite the fact the stat combo synergizes heavily with it, shows that online resources are not the end-all be-all of build options or what is good or not. Top tier players are making their own builds and aren't copying off random online videos and sites

Edited November 4, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Za Shaloc.3908]

That build is really fun to play, quite strong, and is for sure underrated, but isn't too horrible to play around. A lot of its power comes from swap proc abusing, so if you are fighting an intelligent player who can read when you're swapping and dodge/block/etc. accordingly, it loses a significant portion of its kill potency. Honestly my biggest issue with it is that you drop staff. Staff is such an insane value weapon for roaming and whenever I try to run x/shield instead, I find myself dying significantly more often. I'm glad it works for you though.

Honestly though, in this disgusting roaming meta infested with Mechanists and Cele Harbingers, I just play my dumb Ventari Rene build for the projectile hate, but I feel gross playing it so I don't play Rev much anymore. 

[Dahkeus.8243]

9 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

oh the guildjen build... It was good years ago when it got posted... when it was able to hold 25might. Now it has ok mobility, ok-ish burst damage (bad sustained), ok-ish sustain. No stab, low amount of stunbreaks and shiro pulls all your energy with one skill. And even with sigil of cleansing, rune of antitoxin and shield, its cleanses are very limited if you look at some of the current main roaming classes (Harbinger, Virtuoso, Mech ,rene and condi SBs/Druids), because those are literally spamming almost everything at you.

Playable? yes. Is it good? Yes, but id say in School marks its just barely a 2-. Are there better & easier specs to play for roaming? Yes, definitely.

But hey, at least its fun & thats the main thing someone should concentrate on.

 

Might hasn't been nerfed since Feb 2020, which was before Vallun posted the vid.  Might was *added* from both Draconic Echo and the extra mace blast.  This build has more might than Power Herald. 

This build doesn't have stab, just like Power Herald.  It doesn't need stab.  You have two stun breaks and enough mobility/evades.

 

You'd see that most of those builds aren't an actual strong matchup if you try the build, because yes, those builds have condis, but so do you and you don't just stand in one place, seeing who can cleanse condis faster.  Dropping the enemy's health faster and pressing them into playing defensively are often better ways of "countering" condis.

8 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I'm confused by your logic here; a streamer posted a build which happens to use Celestial stats, so you assume any "Celestial Herald" is just that build? Considering the fact that Celestial is a stat type and not just a reference to some random streamer's build you absolutely shouldn't be surprised when no one has any idea that you're talking about some random build posted by a streamer. Glint/Mallyx has always been able to be run as Celestial as well, even if Trailblazer tended to be the choice. Ever since they gave it boon duration though, Celestial has been an equivalent choice for Mallyx variants as well.

In fact, in cHerald's hayday in WvW, no one was ever talking about the "Celestial Shiro" variant (this variant was really only relevant in PvP for a moment). The conversation in WvW almost always centered on True Nature Mallyx, Resistance, and Runes of Torment, so always the Mallyx variants. Given this, it's not surprising that a bunch of people are commenting "celestial herald has low mobility" when it's typically run with Mallyx and not Shiro, despite some random youtube vid posted years ago.

 

I think you're too focused on what's "posted" and what's actually good and/or what people are actually playing. There are tons of builds and build variations that exist that aren't posted. For example, looking at Metabattle's version of Glint/Mallyx roamer is questionable due to weird weapon choice for roaming. The build posted there is not the usual build that most top players were running and isn't the superior version of the build at all in WvW roaming. The fact that Celestial stats aren't even mentioned as an option for the build, despite the fact the stat combo synergizes heavily with it, shows that online resources are not the end-all be-all of build options or what is good or not. Top tier players are making their own builds and aren't copying off random online videos and sites

Dude, you're trying to compare a current build to back when Resistance was an entirely different boon and Mallyx was completely different.  A build that's not posted anywhere online.  You and everyone else here came here saying why the build *doesn't* work without clarifying what build it actually is.  Sorry, but that's not something I can help you with.  Feel free to check out the build I posted tho.  Should clear up any remaining confusion.

 

5 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

That build is really fun to play, quite strong, and is for sure underrated, but isn't too horrible to play around. A lot of its power comes from swap proc abusing, so if you are fighting an intelligent player who can read when you're swapping and dodge/block/etc. accordingly, it loses a significant portion of its kill potency. Honestly my biggest issue with it is that you drop staff. Staff is such an insane value weapon for roaming and whenever I try to run x/shield instead, I find myself dying significantly more often. I'm glad it works for you though.

Honestly though, in this disgusting roaming meta infested with Mechanists and Cele Harbingers, I just play my dumb Ventari Rene build for the projectile hate, but I feel gross playing it so I don't play Rev much anymore. 

The swap is instant and has no animation.  If you play predictably against a better player, yes, they will defend before you swap.  Play against an equally skilled player and that's not a problem. 

 

Saying that "x build has y burst, so a good player will see that coming" is just not good logic.  Pretty much every build out there has a major burst that can be countered the same way.  That doesn't mean that you can't outplay your opponent or provide pressure any other way.

 

Shield takes some getting used to, but it's not a defacto replacement of staff.  It allows you to keep up pressure and gives you better condi cleanse.  This is also part of why you're not just a sitting duck outside of the swap burst.  Shiro and sword with impossible odds/life steal is heavy pressure and sword 2 on the mace fire field is extra burning, plus the torment you apply from your chill.

 

*update:* Original post updated.  Many here seem to have the idea that I was selling some unstoppable monster build that should be able to dominate every other build on the field in a straight 1 v 1 duel.  That's not what this is. 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Dahkeus.8243

[Dahkeus.8243]

Felt like this thread could use some footage instead of just back and forth speculation on hypotheticals.  I figured I'd post at least what some can agree on here, which is that it's good for flipping camps. 

 

Below is a T3 camp with full guards and mercenaries.  I was a bit sloppy and missed the first pull by not baiting out more blinds while mounted, but it still shows the camp being fully flipped in under 2 min with no line of sight and just yeeting into the middle of everything.

 

[Dahkeus.8243]

Couple duels.

 

Apologies for kitten editting/no music/memes/etc.  I don't really post vids.

 

@Za Shaloc.3908 fake-out at 3:35 shows how to bait a dodge before legend swapping for burst.

 

edit: fixed the video thumbnail

Edited November 5, 2022 by Dahkeus.8243

[Buran.3796]

21 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

The swap is instant and has no animation.  If you play predictably against a better player, yes, they will defend before you swap.  Play against an equally skilled player and that's not a problem. 

   When Vallun first introduced his video (Fallen Angel build) one of the key features of  was to take advantage of being able to burst at 0 energy cost taking advantage of both the weapon swap (proccing the AoE condi sigils of Doom, Geomancy and Hydromancy) with Invoke Torment and the synergies of traits as Abyssal Chill. While the weapon swap doesn't have a clear call, Invoke Torment cast a visual signature and has a delay which is intended to to make opponents to react against them (originally IT lacked it and its inclusion is good in terms of balance, despite ANet never tried to balance stealth users in the same way...).

   By the way, when flipping camps is more effective to start using your ccs in chain + passive procs and and then to use your damage skills INSTEAD of entering in combat with the awfully weak warbeast attack, inmediatly activating the resource-hungry Embrace the Darkness and then eating tons of free attacks from a non cced crowd rich in their own cc stuff (blind, immobilize, knockback...).  I would open with something as Chaotic Release > Elemental Blast > Temporal Rift then swap to Mallyx > Call to Anguish > Echoing Eruption then swap weapons > activate Embrace the Darkness and cover with Crystal Hybernation while the enemies eat the EtD pulses and endure quite a bit damage from the condition we procced at very cheap cost. That would greatly wear off the foes at minimal risk reducing the chances of being countered and having to play defensively after a bombastic entrance.

   My fav part of flipping camps with condi Herald is doing it without wasting heals, including assaulting ones with the invuln boon and killing everything and pillaging the stations leaving it relativery unscratched.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Buran.3796