If using healing spec, for maximum healing, how much healing per tick do you generally get in WvW?

[Vile.4387]

All healing items, and increased healing spec, for the class that gives the best regeneration technique, single person granting to others. I don't know enough about the game to determine which class grants regen to allies. So asking which class, does the most efficiently per tick regeneration healing.

[Warscythes.9307]

Do you mean just regeneration boon or just overall regeneration as in a hot? Because it would an elementalist for the latter due to soothing mist. I don't have the exact number at hand though.

 

Just bear in mind you don't want pure healing generally in this game, you also want boon duration and be able to provide other boons, most importantly alacrity or quickness to get the most of your supports.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Vile.4387]

I am trying to see how badly condition damage is negated, is it like 200 per tick, 400 per tick 1000 per tick?

[Warscythes.9307]

Formula for regeneration 130 + (0.125 * Healing Power) health per second

 

with full ministrel I have about 1311 HP with my heal guard. So that would be about 293, so about 300 I guess? But you have to also consider the class that does it as healers generally have their own unique tick healing beyond just regeneration, whether it be elementalist's soothing mist or guardian's battle presence. Generally though your best defense against condi is just condi removal or even resolution boon.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Mintrel Firebrand can get these Numbers:

1997 Healpower

70,5% Outgoing Healing.

So Regen would be 647 Healing per second.

 

Magi Firebrand get these Numbers:

2207 Healpower

67,8% Outgoing Healing

So Regen would be 681 Healing per second.

 

[Vile.4387]

So 300 per tick from just regeneration, How much does soothing mist and battle presence heal? If each of those do more than 100-200 the condition damage from a necro is 100% useless in huge teamfights. Unless someone is pulled or downed, can someone that is downed still get boons?

Mintrel Firebrand can get these Numbers:

1997 Healpower

70,5% Outgoing Healing.

So Regen would be 647 Healing per second.

 

Magi Firebrand get these Numbers:

2207 Healpower

67,8% Outgoing Healing

So Regen would be 681 Healing per second.

 

Lol 100% useless character in wvw. Thats fantastic.

 

How long do those regen last?

Edited November 2, 2022 by Vile.4387

[DanAlcedo.3281]

7 minutes ago, Vile.4387 said:

So 300 per tick from just regeneration, How much does soothing mist and battle presence heal? If each of those do more than 100-200 the condition damage from a necro is 100% useless in huge teamfights. Unless someone is pulled or downed, can someone that is downed still get boons?

Mintrel Firebrand can get these Numbers:

1997 Healpower

70,5% Outgoing Healing.

So Regen would be 647 Healing per second.

 

Magi Firebrand get these Numbers:

2207 Healpower

67,8% Outgoing Healing

So Regen would be 681 Healing per second.

 

Lol 100% useless character in wvw. Thats fantastic.

If you REALLY gone push Soothing Mist then its 943 Healing per second.

Battle Presence on Mintrel is 434 Healing per Second.

 

[Warscythes.9307]

14 minutes ago, Vile.4387 said:

So 300 per tick from just regeneration, How much does soothing mist and battle presence heal? If each of those do more than 100-200 the condition damage from a necro is 100% useless in huge teamfights. Unless someone is pulled or downed, can someone that is downed still get boons?

Mintrel Firebrand can get these Numbers:

1997 Healpower

70,5% Outgoing Healing.

So Regen would be 647 Healing per second.

 

Magi Firebrand get these Numbers:

2207 Healpower

67,8% Outgoing Healing

So Regen would be 681 Healing per second.

 

Lol 100% useless character in wvw. Thats fantastic.

 

How long do those regen last?

You might be the first person who thinks necro is useless in wvw for teamfights.

[Vile.4387]

29 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

You might be the first person who thinks necro is useless in wvw for teamfights.

Condition damage seems to be. especially if its healed instantly from 3 different sources.

[Warscythes.9307]

40 minutes ago, Vile.4387 said:

Condition damage seems to be. especially if its healed instantly from 3 different sources.

??? Power is definitely better in zergs because you want damage as soon as you can get it instead of waiting for dots, that doesn't mean condi is useless. Condi is not just damage, it is also variety of debuffs in addition to damage especially we are talking about scourge here because it overlays big aoes which does not depend on projectiles and corrupt boons with some barrier.

Seriously, have you tried actually posting in WvW subsection instead?

Edited November 2, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Vile.4387]

This thread is about condition damage negation, and it looks like it is negated 3fold since there are 3 areas of negation, not even including damage negations to condition damage, or cleanse. I opened with the regen, because that was a quick and surefire way to tell if my damage is even doing anything in zerg v zerg boonballs. It clearly isnt as long as 1 of 3 healers have their regen active.

I wont even talk about boon stealing/corrupting, because most people in zerg groups have at least 7 active at any given time, making boon corrupting useless. Who cares if i deal torment damage when I corrupt 1 or even 4 boons, 1 of 3 healers outheal the dps from it.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Vile.4387

[Warscythes.9307]

32 minutes ago, Vile.4387 said:

This thread is about condition damage negation, and it looks like it is negated 3fold since there are 3 areas of negation, not even including damage negations to condition damage, or cleanse. I opened with the regen, because that was a quick and surefire way to tell if my damage is even doing anything in zerg v zerg boonballs. It clearly isnt as long as 1 of 3 healers have their regen active.

I wont even talk about boon stealing/corrupting, because most people in zerg groups have at least 7 active at any given time, making boon corrupting useless. Who cares if i deal torment damage when I corrupt 1 or even 4 boons, 1 of 3 healers outheal the dps from it.

Is not just the damage, is the fact that the boon is gone in the first place. Why do you think scourge has been meta as blob WvW even since their release? Just because people think it looks pretty? 

 

Seriously, post in WvW and say that boon corrupting is useless and see how people respond.

[Cuks.8241]

Conditions in team fights (considering proper team compositions) are in a funny spot. Most of the time they will get almost immediately cleansed, you might get a tick or 2 in. So looking at heal over time effects as a counter is generally useless.

But you can't ignore conditions, you just need that cleansing power because as soon a team would not be able to out cleanse, it would die. Its not the condi dmg that is the real danger (al lthough all condies serve as cover condies). Power is just generally better, because you want that big front loaded coordinated dmg spikes possibly into a a big spike of boon strips and cc. But the team would crumple under non damaging conditions. Chill, Weakness, Slow, Blind, Immobilise...

For zergs necros excel in big power aoe dmg and boon strips with (depending on spec) some team utility. 

[Vile.4387]

5 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Conditions in team fights (considering proper team compositions) are in a funny spot. Most of the time they will get almost immediately cleansed, you might get a tick or 2 in. So looking at heal over time effects as a counter is generally useless.

But you can't ignore conditions, you just need that cleansing power because as soon a team would not be able to out cleanse, it would die. Its not the condi dmg that is the real danger (al lthough all condies serve as cover condies). Power is just generally better, because you want that big front loaded coordinated dmg spikes possibly into a a big spike of boon strips and cc. But the team would crumple under non damaging conditions. Chill, Weakness, Slow, Blind, Immobilise...

For zergs necros excel in big power aoe dmg and boon strips with (depending on spec) some team utility. 

So when im unloading all my skills and the enemy team just runs over me, it's my teams fault for not doing enough damage, not negating enough damage, not keeping boons up enough?

[Noko Anon.9154]

WvW blob fights are determined by who can keep the tightest group. The more stacked on top of each other your squad is, the more spread out the opposing damage becomes. This is why you find commanders “waiting for tail” and why some of them send out constant reminders to “stay on tag”. A group that sticks together wins together.

This is also why condi cleansing and proving aegis/stability is so important as a healer, and why boon stripping is so important as a damage dealer. If you can cleanse immobilize, slow, cripple, and chill, your teammates can stick to the tag better. If you provide aegis and stability, you can help your teammates avoid getting feared or stunned or knocked down and fall off from the tag. If you were dealing damage, you could use some skills to rip aegis and stability to make those kinds of crowd control effects land. The first blob that splits from the tag will usually be the first one to collapse and fall.

Furthermore, one thing left out of the discussion has been the other effect of poison. Poisoning also reduces healing by a tremendous amount. If you don’t cleanse poison, your team also can’t heal effectively. If both squads can stick to tag, then obviously the one with more damage, or the one with better recovery, will outlast the opponent. So, if you dump all of your skills before they’re needed, you could be making things worse for your blob because you don’t have the tools required for a real serious problem.

[Cuks.8241]

4 hours ago, Vile.4387 said:

So when im unloading all my skills and the enemy team just runs over me, it's my teams fault for not doing enough damage, not negating enough damage, not keeping boons up enough?

I dont think we are talking about the same lvl of team organisation. 

When we talk wvw meta we mean squads on voice chat with organised parties that move together and unload skills only when they should. 

And yes in an organised squad if we presume correct composition and you didnt move out of position and dodged properly its on supports to keep you clean, stable and topped off. 

If we are talking random players following a random tag. It all devolves into cloud after first contact and its everyone for himself and all the meta talk is irrelevant. 

[Dadnir.5038]

Granted you go full healing power in a totally ignorant and passive way:

You'll chose herald for as regen source: around 490 hp/s

Since you got herald, you add elevated compassion: around 230 hp/s

Elementalist for soothing mist: 510 hp/s

Necromancer's vampiric presence: 280 hp/s for your party while he is in shroud.

Guardian's virtue of resolve: 215 hp/s

You're at 1725 potential shared hp/s

For fun's sake, I guess you can add to the group a high blade generation virtuoso with illusionary inspiration which could push the group to around 2k hp/s.

 

 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

It kinda depends on the encounter wether condi is usefull or not. Condi is atm king in roaming fights (1v1 up to 5v5). Condi can also work in not properly set up zerg groups that lack stabi and supports. For organized raid groups condition dmge generally sucks. Any possible condition should be cleansed in like ~2 sec tops so you can't really stick any conditions on your enemies. 

That being said, scourge is currently one of the best especs for WvW. In organized raid groups the outcome of the fight gets for like 70% determined by stability uptime and boonrip. Since scourge has very good boonrip its often an easy pick in WvW. To top it off scourge got decent power aoe damage and a lot of condis that can protect the more important enemy movement impairment condis from getting removed.

[Jski.6180]

Keep in mind reg only ticks from the person with the highest healing power NOT highest healing effect. So classes with "free" healing power win out reg ticks even if you have higher out going healing and blunt healing for reg +.

Its a very bad set up and can realty mess up healing builds healing out put.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 11/2/2022 at 1:58 PM, Vile.4387 said:

I am trying to see how badly condition damage is negated, is it like 200 per tick, 400 per tick 1000 per tick?

regeneration alone is super weak and easily counter-able (with boon corruption) but with healing in general anything can be considered “ticks” of healing over time where if each interval your counting is one second then the healer outputting healing per second per number of people is the thing you think about. 
 

back in the day it usto be possible to output 3k healing per second using tempest with water 1 spam, soothing mist and regen ticks across roughly 10 people on average. Combined with their ability to burst healing with Overload Water and Wash the Pain …as well as condition cleansing (which can also be though of as preventative healing: removing conditions before they do their damage is equivalent to healing the damage those conditions would have done if they had stayed) made them extremely versatile and powerful healers and I’ve solo-healed squads of 15-25 players back then.

 

post nerfs this number is now maybe 1.5kish healing per second across 5 ish people on average and it’s no longer capable of being that pog, let alone solo healing squads.

 

Here’s the thing, most damage coming from enemy players is pretty powerful and can average 2-15k sustained damage per second depending on the how good these damage dealers are. for healers to deal with damage of that magnitude, requires more subtle understanding of negation which is what Nok Anon said: the closer players are together and the more players there are in the zerg, the more enemy damage gets dispersed and easier it becomes for healers and their healing per second to heal through. So that 15k DPS you might see might be dispersed to 25 players where each tick of damage is hitting just 1 unique player each packet and you’ve effectively turned that enemies dps into 15k/25 players for 600 damage per second per player…which can be easily healed through.
 

A more potent enemy will burst their damage skills using high damage packets to bypass this dispersion. If unique players are taking 15k damage packets each, this is way harder if not impossible to heal through so a group that not only sticks together but can burst in high damage packets is gonna be effective against another group of equivalent coordination.

 

another thing to mention: weakness is the strongest skill based negation of damage in the game from single packet damage. I did this calculation a while ago now, but removing an enemies ability to Crit reduces their damage by 75%, 50% of the time (if their build relies on critical damage which most zergs do in order to get those high damage packets) which is on a average, 50% reduction in damage…with protection and other negation abilities, the amount of reduction going on averages to about 75% reduced damage, thereafter diminishing returns becomes negligible.

 

So weakness combined with stacking are the two most powerful negation tools for zergs…and these allow for healers to come in and handle the damage at these scales.

Edited November 6, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[pcgamefreak.5208]

LMAO!

This just proves, yet again, everything I've stated about the development of GW2 is true.  In WvW, Conditional Damage is dead, unless it's one on one...then it might do something but that depends on class.  As far as Zergs go, if you're something like a Condi Necro, you are useless as far as spreading conditions because those conditions will either get cleansed instantly, or reduced to under 100 per tick.  So what do you have to offer as a Condi build?  As a Necro, your best Zerg ability is Boon-Stripping and "CC."  You want to be a "behind front-line staff" using Condi Necro, who can cause "CC" with marks and turn Boons into Conditions because even if the conditions get cleansed, you still got rid of the Boons and that will soften up a Zerg.

It's sad the "Devs"  destroyed the Necro class not just by "Nerfs" but by overpowering other classes around it.  The Necro is truly the rabbit class now.  While other classes are absorbing damage, have Boons and can escape battle, all the Necros are lying on the ground being killed out.  Even the few weak Boons the Necro do generate, they don't last long at all; probably the shortest Boon time of all classes.

It's poor class PvP balacne, peroid!

Folks, the "Devs" are horrible...  Consider this...  The Necro Class is BUILT for condition damage!  The Necro has Curses as a spec and Scepter to go along with it.  The Necro's abilities all scream corruptions but yet, conditions are a non factor in WvW unless it's a Zerg creating them to melt down everything.  How does that happen if you know what you're doing as Developers?

What's even worst is the fact a class like Elementalist can burn you down with fire conditions.  They are better than the Necro class at conditional damage, even though the Necro's main theme is conditional damage.  Of course you have Reaper which is a power version of Necro, but Reaper is lacking so much, you're going to die faster as a Reaper.  Reaper shroud is super short and even shorter with damage and the Necro have no long lasting Boons like a Willbender.

Bottom-line, unless you cheat, you can't compete as a Necro anymore...not when it comes to Roaming or going one on one.  You can only Boon-Strip for a Zerg and absorb some damage so another team-mate don't have to take it but that's it.  I even killed a Reaper while on my Mesmer and I can't even play Mesmer well at all (none cheater player 'tho').

Take Core Necro for example....  Lets say you go into shroud....  Here's the thing....  If you go into shroud as a Core against lets say several enemy players, you'll never have a chance to do anything in shroud because you have no Boons, no stability, no way to break stuns...you're just going to get pulled,  knocked back, stunned, slammed and everythign else until you're dead.  That's supposed to be balance?  That's not even good PvP.

The 'Devs' are so bad, they don't realize, a quick fix to that issue above would simply be, give the Core Necro the right side action bar when they go into shroud and add some Boon generation and stun-break abilities to that side.  Shroud attacks do not deal high burst damage so if an "OP" class can't survive against a Core Necro that no longer has to spend shroud on the ground, then they just don't know their own class.  A willbender would cut through shroud without putting the Necro on the ground and several cuts.

It's apparent the "Devs" are not listening to the players.....that's the same thing that went on in World of Warcraft.  If players are playing your game, they are ulltimate testers and if they're telling you something is bad or broken, it probably is.  Arrogance is not going to remedy anything but it will lead to an end rather sooner than later.

 

[Nefras.7314]

2 hours ago, Horace.3184 said:

 

Bottom-line, unless you cheat, you can't compete as a Necro anymore...not when it comes to Roaming or going one on one. 

 

you heard it here first bois, playing cele is now cheating

[Soilder.3607]

Condition damage builds do not have a place in the current Organized Squad WvW meta because the rate at which conditions can be cleansed by the four primary healers (Druid, Scrapper, Tempest, Vindicator) is greater than the rate at which they can be applied by an equally sized group. Druids, Scrappers, Tempests and Vindicators are capable of cleansing hundreds of conditions per minute within their own 5-man subsquads. Conditions builds are unable to keep up with this rate of cleansing, and organized squads routinely fight one another without any conditions sticking around for longer than a few seconds. This can easily be observed by clicking on a random player in an organized squad and keeping track of how long conditions stay on them during a fight. Most often, you will see rapid application as well as equally, if not more, rapid removal of conditions on the player.

 

Conditions need to stick to a target to do damage as they are damage over time abilities. This does not happen against organized groups.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

If you build for it you can get an average of 1,400 HP/s on a warrior before taking into account healing from might generation.