November 29 Balance Update Preview

[Gaiawolf.8261]

47 minutes ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

We do not know:

• how many pages does a FB have after the change
• how fast do the pages refill?

 

Firebrands still have 5 pages, now shared across all tomes, that regenerate at 1 page per 8 seconds.
Archivist still bumps it up to 8 pages, allowing them to start combat with more and stock more overall.
Loremaster increases page regeneration to 1 page every 6 seconds.
Also Swift Scholar regenerates 1 page for every 3 consecutive tome skills used, so now it makes no sense to open a tome for only 2 skills, or 5, since an extra one would be 'free.'

EDIT: I've done the math, and if you maximize page counts and regen with traits, you can sustain the familiar amount of tome skill usage for Tome of Justice over time, just with much longer CD per skill, so much less bursty. But this leaves you only 2-3 pages for any other Tome. Likely this is their design.
If you don't add ToJ to your damage rotation, you can actually get more usage out of ToR or ToC, again not both. It basically locks using Tomes 2 or 3 out of being useful if you want to use ToJ for DPS at all.
Some others have claimed the best way to get DPS out of ToJ and keep "oh kitten" support is to only use Ashes on CD. So, maybe not so much of a nerf, but completely guts the theme and feel of the class as a cleric archetype, as opposed to just another paladin spec.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

Or - and this is a different way - establish a "STUNBREAK META".  For this to work we'd not only group stunbreaks or good access to stunbreaks. Good access to stunbreaks is groundworks, but doesn't help as you get CC'd right away again. To deal with that you ADDITIONALLY read a GRACE PERIOD after a stunbreak, which makes you immune to CC. I don't know how big the grace period should be, but this is IMO the ONLY other way, other than stab, to get around stab. During the grace period you cannot be CC'd again, making the invest of a stunbreak worthwhile.

This issue has been solved in other MMOs, like ESO, you have stamina to break any hard CC, and an immune period after that in any content.

I think the reason why CC is so horrible in GW2 in particular, is just because everyone has extreme high damage. Once you get CC, you may be killed in few seconds, or even worse, one shot. And you can't do anything during CC. In addition of stunbreak, I'll think of reducing the general damage output in PvP and WvW.

[Rosabell.4283]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:51 PM, Double Tap said:

• Skirmisher's Shot: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
• Three Round Burst: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
• Death's Judgement: This skill now pierces foes not targeted by Deadeye's Mark. Damage dealt to unmarked enemies is reduced. Players can now move while using this skill. Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.

 

Why is the range on these deadeye skills being nerfed? In competitive play, these skills are the only ones (that I know of) that can hit longbow rangers that can fire at you from 1,500 away, as they can hit you with rapid fire and hunter's shot. Without these ranged skills on deadeye, I believe that it is taking away the essence of that a deadeye is, a SNIPER. A sniper should be able to hit foes from far away, especially a longbow ranger that might be firing on you or one of your allies, and in range when others in your squad are not able to hit. The nerf in range for deadeye just doesn't make sense. 

[Drag You Down.2615]

23 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I've done the math, and if you maximize page counts and regen with traits, you can sustain the familiar amount of tome skill usage for Tome of Justice over time, just with much longer CD per skill, so much less bursty. But this leaves you only 2-3 pages for any other Tome. Likely this is their design.

Then the balance team see your post, now they rearrange the order of traits. XD You can only pick one of those traits.

I hope they don't do that.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Double Tap would you be able to clarify RE: the banner of tactics change that will make it an AoE stunbreak? Will it break stun on skill activation or when the banner actually drops? If the former, that's great, and it will help make banner support warrior a thing. If the latter, it won't help nearly as much in competitive modes, since you are giving up one of your stunbreak slots to take the banner.

 

Thanks for clarifying!

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Then the balance team see your post, now they rearrange the order of traits. XD You can only pick one of those traits.

I hope they don't do that.

The team actually addressed that in the live stream. It's like that by design. The traits were reworked so you have to pick which virtue, and tome, to specialize with. Each grandmaster trait retains the specific passive virtue for one tome only.

Swift Scholar is meant to benefit players that stock up pages and then burst them, instead of popping in for one skill piano-player style which I fear min-maxxers will find optimal. Ugh. They seemed pretty proud of that trait. I like it too, since it'll help me stay in a tome longer and not burn pages quite as fast. Helps retain some of the bursty caster feel of the class, just a little. I hope they buff it later, or just buff page regen, or nerf Searing Spell's damage down to a regular auto-attack and make it not cost pages. I'd be fine with any of those. Give me my divine caster, so I don't have to camp axe like a paladin. 😉

Edited November 13, 2022 by Gaiawolf.8261
Clarity

[Yer.8096]

Tempest alac when begin overload? No? Really?

[Angesombre.4630]

Harbinger no problem in WvW, I came across one that is mobile, it tanks with shells( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death's_Carapace ), it does damage and it puts a ton of buffs without counting the control but no worries and can absorb or send back the alterations what more can I ask for? On the other hand, the vindicator takes nerf at each maj almost.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Batalix.2873]

11 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

It really wasn't. It was good, versatile class design that was fun to play across the game's content. FB wasn't actually the problem. It just stood out as an overperformer, because most other specs aren't designed as well. They were forced to overspecialize to their own detriment. A proper solution would have been to give those other specs tools for some extra utility or support outside their specialties, so they aren't either boring or one-trick ponies (crazy rotations optional, in some cases).

 

It is a bit of a pipe dream to expect that a game with only a handful of necessary boons, and only a handful of decent damage condis can sufficiently diversify 27 different especs if they are all shoehorned into the same "versatile DPS + boon support" ideal. This isn't a fighter game, it's an RPG with three different game modes and multiple axes of design it can move especs into instead of having them all compete for effectively the same two or three roles.

 

If all classes tried to be like Firebrand, class uniqueness and diversity would tank. In fact they already have been tanking or threatening to tank. Look at recent proposed changes to gut Scrapper and Deadeye of their core conceits. Look at how the individual effects of Herald's facets, Chrono's wells, Druid's spirits no longer matter because they are just spammed off cooldown in an attempt to "keep pace" with Firebrand without outright copying it.

 

The clear end state of this line of homogenizing every class to be a generalist is the total removal of fun and distinct gameplay loops as classes increasingly adopt the same balancing restrictions. It is Final Fantasy XIV. First cross-classing and weapon options were removed. Then elemental damage typing was removed. Then "roles" were implemented and unique kits were made available to entire roles. Then gear was standardized so that each role only cared about buffing a single stat down a linear progression. Then RNG proc abilities were heavily gutted of interesting effects to be more "consistent", along with healers having their abilities all reduced to the exactly the same few damage and healing analogies, with a pitifully low and firm damage cap so they can't even feel GOOD about spamming 1111111. Then blunt/piercing/slashing damage typing was removed. Then abilities affecting cooldown length (alac/quick, effectively) were removed. Then they started reducing all classes' DoT (condi) damage abilities down to a single 30 second refresh because a *single* 48 man raid had an arbitrary debuff cap. THEN they started standardizing all of the cooldowns across classes so that their rotations could all align the same 2 minute buff window, down to the basic combo, off-cooldown skills, and buffs all sharing the exact same cooldowns and comparable potencies. THEN they added so much self sustain to all of the tanks that dungeons could be run, painfully but slowly, by a single player, obviating ANY need for healers to heal or DPS to not die to mechs. And THEN they started removing crit chance from abilities to "make damage more consistent". And this was as of nearly a year ago.

 

At this point, there are 20 classes in FFXIV but effectively only five "playstyles" with only the slightest variations between them: tank, healer, melee DPS, ranged DPS, and hybrid caster. Weapon options, elemental typing of damage, weapon typing of damage, unique skills, rng procs, additional attack skills, DoTs, haste effects, stat customization, the entire point of a critical stat, the entire point of a healer or DPS role, ALL ARE GONE IN PURSUIT OF "BALANCE".

 

And in their place is effectively a rhythm game. One where damage becomes more "consistent" with each patch and jobs are railroaded further into the only measure of success being their ability to execute the same 2-minute rotation in unisom such that, for a mere 15 seconds out of every two minutes, they all feel like they are impacting the game state. Filled with another 1:45 of filler 123 combos, one or two off cooldowns, and the only tension being hoping they don't rollover too much time and stray from the next buff window.

 

All this, a slippery slope that actually, demonstrably, happened, because players would not stop imposing a meta and whinging about "viability".

 

8 people in perfect mindless unisom. A chamber orch playing the most soulless piece of music, a troupe dancing to the least joyful DDR track. Tank does their one raidwide mitigation. Healer does their one burst heal. Pretending that the game they have, now *objectively* a mere fraction of what it used to be--everything resembling freedom, surprise, variety--has been edited down in favor of an experience that has the *superficial appearance* of a combat system, but is really just a Simon says time gate in a role-playing dress-up game.

 

Guild Wars 2 is thankfully not that yet, but boy the balance team does not realize how much they have been flirting with the destruction of a very good, deep system. Every move toward "standards", 5-target limits, 1200 range limits, tacked on boon traits, prioritization over DPS benchmarking instead, instead of moving into lateral/incomparable design space, is moving closer to obviating the entire point of the espec design and reducing everything to being measured against Mech or Firebrand.

 

So sit the kitten down, please. The notion that "every class can do everything" was never going to be deliverable, at least on the espec level. We are still well-within a scope where every *profession* can do everything by swapping especs, with some targeted focusing of overperforming especs. But at this point, attempting to operate under the delusion that "every class can do everything" evidences a large portion of the playerbase that (a) has likely never really tried to enjoy/embrace the uniqueness of other specs, (b) very likely struggles to perceive design along any axis other than kill speed (i.e. DPS benchmarks and boon uptime), and (c) does not want to recognize the privilege that Firebrand and Mech were born into under those hierarchies.

 

EDIT: this post reads like an ad for unisom. I'm not fixing the typos.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Batalix.2873

[MaLong.2079]

I like the range nerf to thief. Please do the same to ranger too. Only engi mortar should have a 1500 range because it is very slow (rate of fire and projectile speed) and it is an ELITE skill kit that has nothing but mortar skills when equipped.

Why is the 300 distance thing added to Mech only? Why not to ranger's pets too? And clones? and minions? etc.?

I am hoping to see more changes related to play and counter play soon.

[Angesombre.4630]

Necro we see bot farm everywhere with minions, he does everything with the harbinger, Ranger 1500 with the longbow but 1800 in reality.

The vindicator class that we still don't know what it should do or not so much it has been modified since the first beta.
It should heal and put barrier but in fact it does too much and should almost do more, the dodge is a gameplay above miss at first modify but it must do less, so we nerf everything around the dodge with buffs minable, other buffs is like the dps so negligible that we do not even know that it exists.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[firedragon.8953]

16 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Warrior Banners should have a Rally flip-over use so they when planted gave their pulse effect and then their situational effect would be on the Rally use. For example, Banner of Tactics, should only give the Super Speed and Stability on Rally instead of on drop since there's no control over it if it's on drop.

x1000
This is really needed. Warrior needs actual situational group utility. I've mentioned this, other warrior players have mentioned it, even streamers like Teapot have mentioned it. C'mon, get on this! "Rally Allies," "Rallying Call, " let's go!!

Edited November 13, 2022 by firedragon.8953

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

The clear end state of this line of homogenizing every class to be a generalist is the total removal of fun and distinct gameplay loops as classes increasingly adopt the same balancing restrictions. It is Final Fantasy XIV. First cross-classing and weapon options were removed. Then elemental damage typing was removed. Then "roles" were implemented and unique kits were made available to entire roles. Then gear was standardized so that each role only cared about buffing a single stat down a linear progression. Then RNG proc abilities were heavily gutted of interesting effects to be more "consistent", along with healers having their abilities all reduced to the exactly the same few damage and healing analogies, with a pitifully low and firm damage cap so they can't even feel GOOD about spamming 1111111. Then blunt/piercing/slashing damage typing was removed. Then abilities affecting cooldown length (alac/quick, effectively) were removed. Then they started reducing all classes' DoT (condi) damage abilities down to a single 30 second refresh because a *single* 48 man raid had an arbitrary debuff cap. THEN they started standardizing all of the cooldowns across classes so that their rotations could all align the same 2 minute buff window, down to the basic combo, off-cooldown skills, and buffs all sharing the exact same cooldowns and comparable potencies. THEN they added so much self sustain to all of the tanks that dungeons could be run, painfully but slowly, by a single player, obviating ANY need for healers to heal or DPS to not die to mechs. And THEN they started removing crit chance from abilities to "make damage more consistent". And this was as of nearly a year ago.

 

At this point, there are 20 classes in FFXIV but effectively only five "playstyles" with only the slightest variations between them: tank, healer, melee DPS, ranged DPS, and hybrid caster. Weapon options, elemental typing of damage, weapon typing of damage, unique skills, rng procs, additional attack skills, DoTs, haste effects, stat customization, the entire point of a critical stat, the entire point of a healer or DPS role, ALL ARE GONE IN PURSUIT OF "BALANCE"

OMG!!! Thank you so much for bringing up the TERRIBLE TERRIBLE combat system of FF14. That is exactly why I quit that game.

 

I think it is a DEGENERATION of human problem solving ability. The word GAME means creating a question, and solve the question. They simplified the game by DELETING THE QUESTION, which there is no more GAME! They are eliminating your ability of solving the problem and make everything as simple as possible, and as BORING as possible.

 

The way to make the things better is not simplification, but making the question more interesting and exciting. No matter how difficult it is, people will want to solve it.

 

FF14 is no longer a game to me, it is just a movie, with some maps which you can use to take photos. And you will find all the FF14 players playing that game is not because it is fun to play as a combat game, is because the story, or character creation, or its IP Final Fantasy series.

 

So I hope GW2 is not the next FF14, because, TBH, the strongest component is the combat system in GW2, The character creation and IP are certainly quite weak compare to other MMOs, the story is fine but can be replaced, combat is the strongest CORE of this game.

@ArenaNet Team.4819 Be careful, if you lose that, you lose everything. This is not a threat, this is something everyone knows.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Drag You Down.2615

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

 

It is a bit of a pipe dream to expect that a game with only a handful of necessary boons, and only a handful of decent damage condis can sufficiently diversify 27 different especs if they are all shoehorned into the same "versatile DPS + boon support" ideal. This isn't a fighter game, it's an RPG with three different game modes and multiple axes of design it can move especs into instead of having them all compete for effectively the same two or three roles.

 

If all classes tried to be like Firebrand, class uniqueness and diversity would tank. In fact they already have been tanking or threatening to tank. Look at recent proposed changes to gut Scrapper and Deadeye of their core conceits. Look at how the individual effects of Herald's facets, Chrono's wells, Druid's spirits no longer matter because they are just spammed off cooldown in an attempt to "keep pace" with Firebrand without outright copying it.

 

 

No, not every espec needs to be especially diverse like FB, just maybe one per class so we all have options. But each spec should be capable of doing more than just one thing at a time, if the player decides they want that, especially for solo play where you have no one else to rely on.
And I never said anything about homogeneous class design. Yes, that's easier to balance but robs classes of their unique flavor. I agree, let's stay away from that. That's just what this rework looks to be doing with FB. They took its unique mechanic and made it work like kits on a limited resource. They even got rid of the cool animation that gave them this divine lorecaster flavor to make them just another paladin flavored guardian spec with engineer-lite tools (mechanically).

[Drag You Down.2615]

4 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

They even got rid of the cool animation that gave them this divine lorecaster flavor to make them just another paladin flavored guardian spec with engineer-lite tools (mechanically)

Really? I missed a part of their livestream. Did they really delete the animation? I want to know what is their design rationale. WHY!?

[Forbiben.3842]

Can we remove the teleport on CS for chrono so its not a death trap in pve content.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

24 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Really? I missed a part of their livestream. Did they really delete the animation? I want to know what is their design rationale. WHY!?

Going into and out of a tome is now instant cast with no animation. Just like an engineer kit. Probably got rid of the animation because it was too long. Mechanics at the cost of aesthetics. 

[Batalix.2873]

27 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

No, not every espec needs to be especially diverse like FB, just maybe one per class so we all have options. But each spec should be capable of doing more than just one thing at a time, if the player decides they want that, especially for solo play where you have no one else to rely on.
And I never said anything about homogeneous class design. Yes, that's easier to balance but robs classes of their unique flavor. I agree, let's stay away from that. That's just what this rework looks to be doing with FB. They took its unique mechanic and made it work like kits on a limited resource. They even got rid of the cool animation that gave them this divine lorecaster flavor to make them just another paladin flavored guardian spec with engineer-lite tools (mechanically).

 

No profession needs an espec as diverse as FB or Mech to the point of obviating (a) the other two especs and (b) most other especs.

 

FB isn't "diverse". It's "unfocused" and "over equipped". If it did no weapon damage at all or were encouraged to use a unique healing/support axe, then it might be something approaching "good" design; it still has a literal library of options for group support that I guarantee would not make it unviable. There are so few comparables to pure healers like Druid in this game they would still be very competitive for that niche.

 

Whereas, sorry FBs, but your axe attacks are kinda boring and don't give off much burning vibes at all. I enjoy more of the core guardian weapons than I do FB Axe, which feels like it vaguely considered being about moving/zoning enemies/allies and then gave up and did straight damage. It's ambivalent and boring

[Megablockpete.3259]

Can we please make Merciful Intervention not need an ally to be used?

[Dahkeus.8243]

Not a thief main anymore and never was a big fan of Deadeye, but I agree with the consensus that needing the range is not a good change.  
 

Personally, I think professions need more class identity and not less.  
 

The ranged, sniper aspect of Deadeye is pretty essential to the elite spec. 

[Haim.1896]

I think the reduced range of deadeye is a really bad and unfair change. It was supposed to be the sniper spec. 25% speed I'm not sure it will do enough difference. I think deadeye will feel bad with the range nerf. 

 

Also ranger gets to keep 1500 range? 

[Haim.1896]

On 11/11/2022 at 10:14 PM, Whiskers.7346 said:

On Deadeye, the changes are baffling to say the least.

I'm not exactly certain how I'm supposed to get enough Malice to actually use Death's Judgement if the other rifle skills aren't piercing too. All of rifle needs to pierce for the class to work, not just Death's Judgement.

Yes, this! Also leave the range at 1500 please! I don't think it will feel good without. 

[Haim.1896]

On 11/12/2022 at 1:29 AM, Dragonzephir.6197 said:

Just why ?

Right? Feels so bad to be punished as the most immobile spec for trying to reposition...

[sigmundf.7523]

Guys, ANET is a corporation that sells GW2 as a product to make profit. We (players) are the costumers that consume the product (playing GW2). So if you guys (consumers) dissatisfied with the current state of the game (the product), stop playing it and supporting it. You guys only able to actually make change with your wallet. None of your feedback here is going to be listened. A corporation won't listen to their costumer feedback until the costumer stop consuming the product. 

 

ANET "devs" team isn't a developer team that developing game, they developing a product to be sold, through any means necessary. So when their development goes sideway with consumer's expectation, just stop consuming the product. Speak with your wallet, that is the fastest and easiest way for them to listen to us.

[Bizgurk.5639]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:51 PM, Double Tap said:

Weaver

 

• [...]
• Twin Strike: Increased burning stacks from 1 to 2 in PvP only.
• Flame Uprising: Increased burning duration from 4 seconds to 6 seconds in PvP only.

[...]

 

Scrapper

• Electro-whirl: Increased power coefficient from 0.68 to 0.75 in PvP only.
• Bypass Coating: Reduced cooldown from 35 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.
• Medic Gyro: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.

I wish changes like these would apply to WvW as well. Roaming is still a thing! Please, keep that in mind.
Weaver isn't just underperforming in PvP, since EoD it is as well in WvW and could really need those buffs.
Same for Dps Scrapper. He got affected by many of those nerfs that were meant for Heal Scrapper and he currently suffers a lot in the WvW roaming scene.

I would actually support a more PvP oriented approach when it comes to WvW. If an ability hits too hard or not hard enough in Pvp, then it's most likely the same in WvW. I agree with some exceptions in terms of Large Scale fights, but WvW roaming also needs balance.

Keep roaming alive!

Edited November 13, 2022 by Bizgurk.5639
Typo