November 29 Balance Update Preview

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

So what does "stowing" mean then? The text on the wiki literally says: "Equipping or stowing a Virtue grants you quickness."

Edit: Also the notes on the wiki for Renewed Justice state: "For Firebrands this trait lowers the cooldown of Tome of Justice by 20% and grants one page while in Tome of Justice."

Just for clarification.

Stowing mean putting it away. It used to proc when entering or leaving a tome. It no longer procs on leaving. Not that it makes much of a difference with tomes instant open close now except to cause jankiness.

[Thoyon.8452]

As an elementalist main I would miss the heal on  water scepter 3 if you took it away. Perhaps keep the effects of damage on an enemy, but instead of it healing yourself, be able to target an ally and heal them so you get the best of both worlds. Similar to how specter's scepter can target enemies and allies. Also it's not in the patch notes but what about making more single target heals for ele like you did on druid staff? Staff auto could easily be an ally target option. That's all from me. Thank you.

[Dark Sorcerer.6420]

So nothing great or major changing on Virtuoso, huh?  That is not very encouraging 😞

[Gehenna.3625]

20 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Stowing mean putting it away. It used to proc when entering or leaving a tome. It no longer procs on leaving. Not that it makes much of a difference with tomes instant open close now except to cause jankiness.

I assume that with "used to" you mean currently. It's a bit confusing when you talk about the present in the past tense lol.

So apparently you can equip a tome every 8 seconds after the patch to get quickness. Of course they reduced the duration of quickness, so you'll need to invest in concentration to get it up to 3 seconds again.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[Lord Warfin.1209]

I'm really hoping the Deadeye changes are someone's idea of a joke. Allowing you to crawl on the ground while being reduced to another intermediate range spec is improving the viability of rifle exactly how?  Range is the only thing that makes it work at all.  If anything it should be the only 1800 range spec in the game.  Then the lack of mobility would make sense.  Reducing the range of the useful skills while keeping the auto-attack at 1500 is also just cruel.  This pretty much invalidates the whole concept of the spec as a sniper.  A fully braced sniper can't shoot as far as a ranger can fling rapid volleys of arrows while running and performing acrobatics.  I could see equalizing the kneeling and non-kneeling versions of the skills so they are closer in power and mostly different in range, and requiring kneeling for death's judgement to have 1500 range also makes sense, but taking range away from Deadeye would be like taking clones away from mesmers or mechs from mechanists.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Lord Warfin.1209

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

Mesmer, Elementalist (When is staff Weaver getting back??) and Scrapper buffs are a joke xd

 

And Untamed is getting a buff in PvP, really?

Meanwhile Necro, non-cata eles and berserker are still bad

 

Ty for Firebrand and Holo changes I think.

 

(This is not an attack, only my very personal thoughts) 

[stormemperor.3745]

You can trust cmc they said

It won't be same they said

No one said anything about crawling

[Kuma.1503]

9 hours ago, sigmundf.7523 said:

Guys, ANET is a corporation that sells GW2 as a product to make profit. We (players) are the costumers that consume the product (playing GW2). So if you guys (consumers) dissatisfied with the current state of the game (the product), stop playing it and supporting it. You guys only able to actually make change with your wallet. None of your feedback here is going to be listened. A corporation won't listen to their costumer feedback until the costumer stop consuming the product. 

 

ANET "devs" team isn't a developer team that developing game, they developing a product to be sold, through any means necessary. So when their development goes sideway with consumer's expectation, just stop consuming the product. Speak with your wallet, that is the fastest and easiest way for them to listen to us.

I've stopped playing until Tempest gets its alacrity generation fixed. 

Doubt that will influence much in the grand scheme of things. Voting with your wallet rarely seems to work in these contexts, much as I wish it did. Usually it just convinces the company that putting in the effort to make these changes isn't worth it because profit isn't there, or it causes them to gouge the people that are left harder. 

Source: Ex-WoW player PTSD. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Mike.7983]

40 minutes ago, Dark Sorcerer.6420 said:

So nothing great or major changing on Virtuoso, huh?  That is not very encouraging 😞

No news is good news...expecting changes aka nerfs?

[Malus.2184]

14 hours ago, sigmundf.7523 said:

None of your feedback here is going to be listened. A corporation won't listen to their costumer feedback until the costumer stop consuming the product. 

Objectively incorrect. The change in philosophy that means that the previews are posted weeks in adavance came about due to player complaints. Warrior's second Banner changes came about due to complaints, a planned Gyro change was never implemented due to complaints, and the Mantra of Liberation change was postponed due to complaints.

What you express is that ANet should listen to all complaints and take them seriously, which is ludicrous, instead of just listening to the general feedback, which is the sensible thing to do.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Malus.2184

[VeriBeri.9528]

39 minutes ago, Lord Warfin.1209 said:

 taking range away from Deadeye would be like taking clones away from mesmers or mechs from mechanists.

This dev team literally took clones from mesmers by adding Virtuoso. I can only assume they want to bring everything to the skill and "fun" level of power mech. Worst expansion so far and worst "balance" I've seen.

[Gambit.9501]

Anet PLEASE DO NOT reduce the range of Knelt Deadeye Rifle skills.  That does not make the class better to play in PvE, that makes it worse.  If this was a change made due to PvP, then friendly reminder that YOU HAVE A SPLIT-MODE SYSTEM FOR A REASON.

Deadeye Rifle fantasy is supposed to be long-range quick-killing.  Why is Ranger Longbow allowed to have 1500~1800 range skills but Deadeye suddenly isn't?

Nerfing Kneel skill range goes COMPLETELY AGAINST THE CLASS FANTASY.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Gambit.9501

[Onox.4287]

As an engineer main since 2012, and a Holo main since PoF, this patch is very much welcome! 🙂

According to my calculations the buffs to Corona (forge3), Solar Focusing Lens and Photonic Blasting Module should account for around 1k extra dps on Condi Holo. I know we have Condi Mech, but I think Condi Holo as a burstier, burning-focused, build is a nice thing for build diversity.

Some extra burning on SFL, even more on PBM, and/or base burning duration on PLB, could do the trick. Or include some burning in Crystal Configuration: Storm, etc. or revert that change to Napalm on FT kit

[Irrational.2871]

How to make anet devs feel uncomfortable? Just remind them that a dagger for necros exists and not being used like for 10 years in row kek🔪

[Freedoms.2635]

On 11/12/2022 at 1:52 AM, Argonil.6970 said:

This is a VERY bad change, please revert this. Usually you want Alac uptime between fights to reset your abilities and your special action skill (like in the Twilight Oasis fractal where you work for Joko, you want alac to reduce the cooldown on the jump ability. Or the Deepstone fractal where you need the light ring for the platform puzzle) but since Mirage won't have clones outside combat and only applies 1 second alac per ambush without clones, it's pretty much a dead spec for fractals.
What problem do they solve with this change, is there an actual problem? It's not like you could keep full uptime on Alac or Might if you switched to axe anyway so what's the point?

With this change, Mirage will be a pseudo-alac spec that isn't worth taking for any content where you're on the move. I can't create a sincere argument for why someone should bring an alac mirage for fractals. It also gives lower QoL as you can't reduce cooldown on movement abilities or on your Portal for when you're doing jumping puzzles with friends. I absolutely hate this change.

after watching and listening to the broad cast and Muk / teapot this really only forces you to play staff/ staff for alac uptime while losing some dps as you can no longer sustain the alac uptime playing Staff / axe +.  it is a nerf but not as bad as i once thought. because this means all your staff clones will no longer pulse there boons but instead you get there pulse so 1 second plus 3 clones is 4 seconds of up time plus the 8 stacks of might. this was entended to make you choose damage or boon support but not both.  

[Freedoms.2635]

2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I really like this idea in concept and fully endorse it. I disagree on the skills being weak, especially Desert Bloom. Spamming over 1K heals for free would need a heavy nerf. Probably the same for Searing Spell. If Unflinching Charge subs protection for stab, yeah, that's pretty weak and can stay, but I'd prefer a charge mechanic like speed better. Needless to say, these auto-attack/free skills could no longer proc Swift Scholar.

I would also love the caster feel this would add to the FB. Love it. Searing Spell as an alternative to camping axe? Bring it on!

why does firebrand need everything? 

[Batalix.2873]

2 hours ago, VeriBeri.9528 said:

This dev team literally took clones from mesmers by adding Virtuoso. I can only assume they want to bring everything to the skill and "fun" level of power mech. Worst expansion so far and worst "balance" I've seen.

 

Well...I think the Virtuoso tradeoff is fair in concept for job diversity....it just needs to not be so kitten easy to do ranged damage with.

 

Mech...is shameful.

 

I think it is misguided for a game to try to balance RPG classes around PvP rather than PvE, for two primary reasons:

 

1) PvP emphasizes self-sustainability to such an extent that "balance" trends toward every class prioritizing DPS and key boons as a cold matter of numbers and baselines. There is some small strategy in group synergy, but for a mode that is largely random matchups it is an extremely niche concern. All other aspects of design--class flavor, unique features, play feel and animations--are subject to violent sacrifice because they are so easily ignored when viewing everything as a spreadsheet.

 

2) PvE and casual play is generally the largest portion of an MMO playerbase, and this holds true for GW2. People generally don't play PvE to be "competitive" with top meta builds. They play to enjoy the maps, the story, and the self-expression of character creation. Having effectively 27 different especs to choose from is a huge part of that self expression, and the most nonequivalencies they have (Scrapper Gyros, Deadeye Kneel range, etc.), the more meaningful and immersive players' choices feel. Also, arguably, the more differently specs play, the more likely players will invest time/money in making alts to try other specs, and that is where most of GW's money is made outside of gemstore skins.

 

The recent few balance patches bely a pretty naive understanding of GW2's strengths and what to prioritize. There is wayyyyyy more content to experience in PvE than PvP, and much less toxic/punishing content at that--and I get the impression the balance team is not quite respecting/recognizing the full scope of reasons that PvE's friendly, collaborative community is the more attractive and played mod. There is much more reason to try gearing up yet another character if they can do something unique no other espec can. Whereas there is very little incentive to explore other especs if they do basically the same thing as the one you are currently playing--and this applies to PvP as much as it does PvE.

 

I understand that there is an internal desire to make PvP and WvW more viable, and I think it is an admirable goal to work toward. Both modes have potential. However, the devs need to recognize a few things:

 

(a) Legitimate class diversity, giving each espec tradeoffs, limitations, and especially unique gamefeel concepts, is KING. It is GW2's crown jewel and the reason why the game sees so much engagement. Removing any of those core conceits (except Mech's, which fundamentally undermines the entire system), is killing the game.

 

(b) PvE content, particularly map design, events/metas, mobility, is QUEEN. The world is vast, it is dense, it is beautiful, it is alive, it is what keeps most players logged in for hours doing comparatively nothing but enjoying pure art and immersion. PvP has some ten playing fields; WvE has four maps, two of which are identical. Both modes offer kitten mobility options and nothing else to do except kill other players. Both also generally only offer two modes of play: blob up and Zerg (doesn't matter if you are five or fifty), or roam and snag unoccupied territory (WvW does also have some tactical features to add context and tension). While PvE does tend to encourage homogenized blobby play for strikes and raids, it also offers so many other ways to play the game than zerging/roaming.

 

Put simply: PvP and WvW are not robustly designed game modes, and "balancing" classes is not going to change the fact that they devolve into very repetitive and narrow experiences.

 

I do PvP as my daily of choice every day, and I do enjoy having a short-term easy gratification mode to breakup longer PvE grinds. But I play on half-baked mirage/herald builds and do well enough, and I have no inclination to play a second match because it will likely play out very similar to the first and I still have so many things that need doing in PvE.

 

I try to enjoy WvW here and there, but usually one evening of zerging or roaming is enough to satiate me for weeks to months. Trying to level without an active Zerg on the map is vaguely torturous, so timing is everything. Playing without Warclaw heavily hurts new players, and even with Warclaw the maps are way too punishing if you die. At least some PvE mounts really should be allowed outside of a certain distance from towers, particularly Springer and Skimmer (so maybe throw in Raptor and you have a nice suite of mobility options). And the fact that maps never change up just feels like I'm pushing a great Sisyphean stone recapturing what I did two weeks ago.

 

Imo, and somewhat oversimplifying things, PvP and WvW don't sorely need a lot balancing to fix accessibility (with a few exceptions like needing to give more classes access to stab in WvW). If you have a bursty build in PvP or a tanky build in WvW, you will likely survive and be able to see some wins/rewards progress as a casual player.

 

What PvP and WvW need are more variety. More than just Conquest as an alternate PvP mode; several more modes. Regularly adding new maps. More maps with more interesting point layouts, maybe some with just one or two points or some with four or five. More than the same 2+1 Borderlands maps (this is the Mists, why is everything so static?), and maybe a new map added semi-regularly.

 

All this balancing seems like the smallest of bandaids to try to fix the gargantuan problem that PvP and WvW have not received the same consistent, continued support as PvE, and are consequently skeletal by comparison. This "balance" philosophy of removing unique espec identities under the delusion of fixing competitive modes, is not going to bode well for the game. The problems with PvP and WvW run far deeper than flippantly deleting class abilities, and the impact this will have on GW2's best and most marketable mode is going to be catastrophic. Some other game will come in with an actual action system resembling everything GW2 lost, and ANet will be toast.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Batalix.2873

[Lord Warfin.1209]

5 hours ago, VeriBeri.9528 said:

This dev team literally took clones from mesmers by adding Virtuoso. I can only assume they want to bring everything to the skill and "fun" level of power mech. Worst expansion so far and worst "balance" I've seen.

They took clones away and gave it blades.  It was a whole new spec concept and it worked.  You can't take range away from a sniper and still have a sniper.  This would be like reducing the number of clones to 1 in exchange for a 10% bonus to endurance regeneration and calling it a buff.  If they wanted to make rifle more viable they would increase the range, not cut it, or at least add piercing to all the skills to partially make up for the lack of any AoE attacks (e.g. ranger's range 1860 barrage).  The partial piercing on death's judgment is to prevent random mobs from blocking the shot, which is a nice change, but it's not overpowering or going to do lots of damage to many targets.  Being able to crawl while kneeling for an additional initiative to kneel in the first place isn't a bad change either and will allow some position adjustment, but for most combat purposes it's still immobile.  The range reduction doesn't just nerf a few skills it nerfs the whole concept for the spec.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Lord Warfin.1209

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

And when do we get bleed duration on death blossom reduced from 15s to 7.5s and bleed stacks increased from 1 to 2 in exchange?

 

[Sir Plodric Worthington.2540]

Could Reaper please get some more life force generation on the auto attack?

[eldrevo.1746]

36 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

1) PvP emphasizes self-sustainability to such an extent that "balance" trends toward every class prioritizing DPS and key boons as a cold matter of numbers and baselines. There is some small strategy in group synergy, but for a mode that is largely random matchups it is an extremely niche concern. All other aspects of design--class flavor, unique features, play feel and animations--are subject to violent sacrifice because they are so easily ignored when viewing everything as a spreadsheet.

Funnily enough, I absolutely see this point work on paper, but from the build crafting perspective, the opposite is true. Competitive offers far more variety in builds and roles than instanced PVE (not counting open world cos you can do whatever there). Power Specter or Firebrand? Works in pvp/wvw, trash dps in fractals/raids. Tanky builds with defence-focused traitlines? Key role in PVP, popular in WVW roaming, obsolete even when tanking raids in PVE.

I myself am more of a PVE player, but I like my builds having some sustain, utility and all that good stuff that I must replace with plain dps or boon buttons if I want to clear a strike mission... But all that is still welcome in those toxic, unloved and content-starved hellholes I was usually tending to avoid 😅

43 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

There is wayyyyyy more content to experience in PvE than PvP, and much less toxic/punishing content at that--and I get the impression the balance team is not quite respecting/recognizing the full scope of reasons that PvE's friendly, collaborative community is the more attractive and played mod.

I'd say, any content with a Failure state introduced can become toxic. You can lose a PVP match and it might sting, especially if you end up with impression that your noob team ruined the game for you. You can fail miserably in instanced PVE, and your own performance can be crippled by support players not being good enough. You hardly can fail in Open World PVE (Dragon's End was the latest, largest and loudest exception to that rule and it was nerfed to the ground) and the cost of failure in WvW aint that much and it's harder to blame certain people in it, that's why I believe these mods are far less toxic.

48 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

There is much more reason to try gearing up yet another character if they can do something unique no other espec can. Whereas there is very little incentive to explore other especs if they do basically the same thing as the one you are currently playing--and this applies to PvP as much as it does PvE.

Again, I myself was surprised to find that competitive has more uniqueness and diversity when it comes to professions and elite specs. When I do a little roaming in WvW, I know that thieves are uncatchable menaces, except deadeye that also has a lot more stealth and a sniper rifle. I know rangers can beam you from a mile away, mesmers can explode into an army of dudes and oneshot you out of the blue. Necros are chonky killing machines, guardians have a ton of boons. There are specs with traps and trapper runes, there are tanky bruisers and squishy assassins, every profession has its unique defensives I have to play around...

When it comes to PVE, I have specs that do damage and specs that give boons. That's it. Each profession has a DPS and a boon support option by now, and most of them do their stuff in a pretty similar way. I can log on a herald and give quickness by spamming facets, or on a scrapper and spam gyros. I can play six different guardian builds over three four specs including core, and the rotation will be pretty much the same. I don't care that deadeye is a ranged thief spec cos I'll sit in a melee blob anyway (except kiting on Quadims, the reason I got into PVE with my thief in the first place). I play 3-6 professions in endgame PVE at the same time, and I honestly don't care what to bring for another fight, a scourge or a virtuoso, a vindi or a soulbeast or a spellbreaker. I simply take the one that's not sitting on a chest somewhere so I won't have to park it again afterwards.

My guess here is that PVP allows the game's rich and complex combat system truly shine, while in PVE it comes down to very simple tank-and-spank most of the time, and good half of the specs' identity is lost somewhere between the DPS golem and the fractal speedclears.

Oh, and in open world the class identity doesn't matter a kitten as well because you can achieve success there without ever putting any skills on your bars.

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

(a) Legitimate class diversity, giving each espec tradeoffs, limitations, and especially unique gamefeel concepts, is KING. It is GW2's crown jewel and the reason why the game sees so much engagement. Removing any of those core conceits (except Mech's, which fundamentally undermines the entire system), is killing the game.

 

(b) PvE content, particularly map design, events/metas, mobility, is QUEEN. The world is vast, it is dense, it is beautiful, it is alive, it is what keeps most players logged in for hours doing comparatively nothing but enjoying pure art and immersion. PvP has some ten playing fields; WvE has four maps, two of which are identical. Both modes offer kitten mobility options and nothing else to do except kill other players. Both also generally only offer two modes of play: blob up and Zerg (doesn't matter if you are five or fifty), or roam and snag unoccupied territory (WvW does also have some tactical features to add context and tension). While PvE does tend to encourage homogenized blobby play for strikes and raids, it also offers so many other ways to play the game than zerging/roaming.

Though I hard agree here. Not only we need more diversity, but also the ways to engage with it meaningfully across all game modes. While I'm not certain your suggestions are the best way to save competitive (it's much more complex issue than that, involving reward structure, social aspects, game mode rules and more), I agree those 'cornerstone' game modes should receive at least some love to keep things fresh. Anet is slowly pressing on with alliances and further system reworks, but more content can also be very welcome there. While PVE, for a change, could shine even brighter with a lesson or two brought from PVP encounter structure and complexity.

[scureuil.4052]

3 hours ago, Lord Warfin.1209 said:

...but taking range away from Deadeye would be like taking clones away from mesmers or mechs from mechanists.

They already take player away from Mech ...

[Master Po.8154]

In general, I'm happy to see the patch this time, cause at least things are heading the correct direction and the professions who need love badly are getting some (and some of them still need more). 

But I'd like to remind you guys that during the last balance patch live stream, you mentioned that by adding alacrity to Tempest overloading, you were looking forward to the fresh air power alac Tempest build. You know what, I do too. I fancy this thunder god playstyle quite a lot but the sad news here is power Tempest does way too little damage in PVE group content. I really hope that you guys add this to one of your to-buff list at least. As an ele main, Tempest is very fun and it's sad to see that it is now a heal-only build for instanced group content. Please make alac power (or condi if power is too much to ask) tempest a viable build

Edited November 13, 2022 by Master Po.8154

[MathiasXII.7240]

I'm quite excited about the majority of these changes. I hope the whole firebrand change will be well executed (I didn't saw the regeneration rate of pages nor if there will be adjustments in tomes cooldown). I was surprised about Holosmith power boost. I'm quite excited for the reaper damage boost. The chill burst will make condi reaper even more bleeding! Wee. 

Everything was okay I agree/disagree somewhat until I read these lines ... : 

On 11/11/2022 at 1:51 PM, Double Tap said:

 

• Skirmisher's Shot: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
• Three Round Burst: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
• Death's Judgement: This skill now pierces foes not targeted by Deadeye's Mark. Damage dealt to unmarked enemies is reduced. Players can now move while using this skill. Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.

 

Wth, and why?! Now a ranger shoots a bow farther than a Sniper snipes with a friggin' rifle ? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Who thinks it's a good idea to reduce the range of a sniper for ANY reason? A sniper, by definition, is suppose to be the farthest shooting class, like the Chronomancer, as I would assumse, should be the class that has better understanding of time manipulation techniques (slow, quickness, alacrity) and now is probably the least use class to give these boons XD.  Please consider not going forward with the reduced range.... please ?

 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

12 hours ago, Bizgurk.5639 said:

I wish changes like these would apply to WvW as well. Roaming is still a thing!

WvW, what's that? Never heard of her: CMC probably.

 

Although i think there should be a slight difference between balance in PvP/WvW/PvE i agree that in general the question should be why shouldn't we add this proposed balance change to PvP/WvW/PvE aswell? Right now it seems like this question is barely asked by the devs (and sometimes changes are suddenly for all gamemodes when they shouldn't be). 

With the new devs favouritism mostly towards PvP, all other gamemodes suffer. PvE HAT gets 2 big nerfs in the last & upcoming patch and it isn't even mentioned at all. Like a random side effect that they didn't even bother to care about.

23th August patch was only focused on PvE while many skills suffer from the same issues across all gamemodes 

4th October was heavily focused on PvP only, WvW was just added into some of the trait reworks to satisfy the WvW community. For ele they couldn't even bother with thinking about the class at all. The only update they'd added was a 5 sec decrease of CD on eye of the storm.