So Alac Mirage is kinda dead now?

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

There's also complaints that Vindicator should go back to 1 dodge and that having 2 ruins the flavor. Don't just listen to things that you want to hear. The fact is Vindicator was fine in PvP with 1 dodge. This really isn't some hidden fact. It wasn't the greatest but is definitely not the worst. It was fine. It was decently popular and played ok. 

So again, I don't particularly care about mirage specifically. I just don't like you using it as an example given the spec performed with 1 dodge. Not to mention the dodge functionality has been nerfed where you can no longer dodge while immobilized. Look at how many nerfs Vindicator has received in PvP and WvW since change. If you are ok with multiple nerfs on the functionality of the dodge, which let's be honest is the main contention being which you can dodge while cc'd and be able to act while dodging, then sure I guess. Because look at what is a Vindicator's dodge at the moment beyond a normal dodge that does damage? I guess it can hop a little bit with more precise movement but that is about it. If you are ok with mirage dodge become a normal dodge just like how Vindicator dodge become a normal dodge in terms of functionality, then there you go. I am completely ok with that.

I listed my points, you just choose to not believe that Vindicator was fine with 1 dodge. Even in PvE which was the least popular it was perfectly ok with the exception of low dps, which really isn't a hard thing to fix considering is just a numbers change. What do you want me to say then? 

 

How about with 1 dodge in pvp/wvw and 2 in pve? You are still not on the same page even.

 

Also...

 

We had this debate a few months ago and your side lost.

I dont recall you being around then so here are some links for you.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/xdfpem/spreading_some_vindicator_love/

 

 

 

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

let's be honest is the main contention being which you can dodge while cc'd and be able to act while dodging

Yeah lets talk about this too. What happens to a rangers pet when they get CCed? It doesnt stop attacking, necro wells, and other things continue to deal damage while they get CCed, Dragonhunters traps keep working if stepped on while the DH is CCed, etc, etc. I really dont agree with that as a valid complaint, per say. Balance overall damage and performance at a reasonable level or what ever and let each spec have its flavor without all the bias against Mesmer cause people get confused by clones.

 

Again, the split mode functionality is what ruins Mirage more than anything. That and just being over the massive redesigns of classes like removal and readd of dist on chrono, adding alac to staff because they want to throw the class a bone vs fix it, etc, etc. Those things make me not want to invest my own RL time into relearning or remastering any spec in gw2. Thats why my Mesmer that has over 6k hours played on it just sits and I play engi, necro, thief, ren/herald, etc cause I can just play them without the learning curve+relearning re-engineered versions, hassles, limitations, etc that have become a big part of playing Mesmer other than Virtuoso.

 

I still think they could just make IH not trigger while CCed and be done if its an actual issue. Personally, I think that was just an excuse. I dont think Mirage has really had serious balance consideration at all. They just took the lazy route and cut off one of its legs, so to speak.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I think the devs regret giving Mirage Alacrity. It deeply affected the play of Chronomancer, sine Alac Mirage was superior in every way. Its also the only class with the same major boon on two specs, except Warrior and Ranger who were intentionally built to run Quickness and Alacrity on all their elites.

 

After its heyday in Heart of Thorns, Chronomancer was the least played class in the entire game.

[Nezekan.2671]

I think Mirage's damage is nerfed enough to justify having 2 dodges and being able dodge while CC'd and acting during it. Like it's 1.5 seconds if you double dodge in a row and I think Mirage has one of the lowest burst damage windows in the game. The only true "burst" you have is an enemy acting when you have spammed them with confusion, but even that needs a lot of abilities to be activated and you can't do it in window if your dodging, and enemies can act too in this time. Old mirage could definitely destroy things, but look at Mirage nerf history, literally every single damage source Mirage has, has been nerfed at some point, including core memser things.

Current Mirage is definitely not a burst class in pvp modes, it's a duelist that prolongs battles and having 2 dodges will simply improve it in this regard, it won't make it a "I will kill you in my dodge animation" class.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Warscythes.9307]

2 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Yeah lets talk about this too. What happens to a rangers pet when they get CCed? It doesnt stop attacking, necro wells, and other things continue to deal damage while they get CCed, Dragonhunters traps keep working if stepped on while the DH is CCed, etc, etc. I really dont agree with that as a valid complaint, per say. Balance overall damage and performance at a reasonable level or what ever and let each spec have its flavor without all the bias against Mesmer cause people get confused by clones.

 

Again, the split mode functionality is what ruins Mirage more than anything. That and just being over the massive redesigns of classes like removal and readd of dist on chrono, adding alac to staff because they want to throw the class a bone vs fix it, etc, etc. Those things make me not want to invest my own RL time into relearning or remastering any spec in gw2. Thats why my Mesmer that has over 6k hours played on it just sits and I play engi, necro, thief, ren/herald, etc cause I can just play them without the learning curve+relearning re-engineered versions, hassles, limitations, etc that have become a big part of playing Mesmer other than Virtuoso.

 

I still think they could just make IH not trigger while CCed and be done if its an actual issue. Personally, I think that was just an excuse. I dont think Mirage has really had serious balance consideration at all. They just took the lazy route and cut off one of its legs, so to speak.

Mate, aoe work while cc'd is not remotely close to be able to dodge while cc'd. Those are 2 completely different things and I am just baffled you even think it is a fair comparison.

 

I don't think there is ever a way to make it fun for the other players, that is the problem. You can probably make a balanced mirage with 2 dodges with the existing functionalities. It still won't be fun to play against. This has nothing to do with power but rather general gameplay feel. For example you can balance a build that just 1shot something, for example we have fresh air tempest that does close to it and it works. Is still not really fun to fight against it, nobody likes getting one shot randomly just like nobody likes not be able to punish somebody that is being cc'd. There is no way to fix it because the problem is that it exist in the first place. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this but I think you realize that this is the major point of contention. You want 2 dodges with the special functionalities built into it, I think the existence of the special functionalities is a mistake in the first place. Don't just ask people in the mesmer forum, ask in PvP and WvW forum because especially in PvP contest the changes affect everyone, not just the mesmer players but the people against mesmers too. Is not like PvE where is just you vs npcs.

 

If you post on this forum then you should know every single class forum is a complete echo chamber. Post the topic referenced above in PvP or WvW and see the sort of response you get. Wouldn't you think posting a thread solely for PvP mesmers in the mesmer forum means it will be biased?

Edited December 6, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Mate, aoe work while cc'd is not remotely close to be able to dodge while cc'd. Those are 2 completely different things and I am just baffled you even think it is a fair comparison.

 

I don't think there is ever a way to make it fun for the other players, that is the problem. You can probably make a balanced mirage with 2 dodges with the existing functionalities. It still won't be fun to play against. This has nothing to do with power but rather general gameplay feel. For example you can balance a build that just 1shot something, for example we have fresh air tempest that does close to it and it works. Is still not really fun to fight against it, nobody likes getting one shot randomly just like nobody likes not be able to punish somebody that is being cc'd. There is no way to fix it because the problem is that it exist in the first place. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this but I think you realize that this is the major point of contention. You want 2 dodges with the special functionalities built into it, I think the existence of the special functionalities is a mistake in the first place. Don't just ask people in the mesmer forum, ask in PvP and WvW forum because especially in PvP contest the changes affect everyone, not just the mesmer players but the people against mesmers too. Is not like PvE where is just you vs npcs.

 

If you post on this forum then you should know every single class forum is a complete echo chamber. Post the topic referenced above in PvP or WvW and see the sort of response you get. Wouldn't you think posting a thread solely for PvP mesmers in the mesmer forum means it will be biased?

So you are Bias and therefore you like Mirage to remain in the gutter. Understandable but hardly a sound position.

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

How is that Alac uptime in a Zerg and/or how does that 2 staff build work for ya when roaming around? Find it effective?

1 bar of cooldowns for 2 weapon sets is normal/healthy? How about in pvp/wvw? (cause staff/staff) Nothing too gimpy or limiting about that?

Alac seems well integrated into Mirage?

 

Any other class have its support boon uptime 100% tied to one specific weapon that only gives that boon to that spec to the point it must carry 2?

Staff being different on Mirage vs core is health and smart?

 

I could go on....

Dual staff works well enough outside of instanced content, although you probably want Deceptive Evasion for more clone generation. It's also among the best 'solo a champion' builds if you use trailblazer.

From a design perspective, though, I'd rather see alacrity coming from a trait that competes with IH.

[draxynnic.3719]

(Double post due to phone acting up)

Edited December 7, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Warscythes.9307]

On 12/6/2022 at 6:45 PM, Moradorin.6217 said:

So you are Bias and therefore you like Mirage to remain in the gutter. Understandable but hardly a sound position.

No? Again I have literally no issues with Mirage having a second dodge. The problem is that I don't think people generally are ok with the special functionalities of the dodge itself in PvP/WvW, is just not good design. Have you read my post at all? Do you really want to talk about bias when we are literally posting in a class forum?

Again ask this in PvP or WvW and see the response you get instead of the echo chamber that is the class forums. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Moradorin.6217]

2 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

No? Again I have literally no issues with Mirage having a second dodge. The problem is that I don't think people generally are ok with the special functionalities of the dodge itself in PvP/WvW, is just not good design. Have you read my post at all? Do you really want to talk about bias when we are literally posting in a class forum?

Again ask this in PvP or WvW and see the response you get instead of the echo chamber that is the class forums. 

I did we had that debate a few months ago on the other thread about 2nd dodge that I linked under the reddit link to the people that played vind prior to the adding of a dodge to that with the impressions players had of it.

 

The overarching point I am making that you keep skipping past is the split mode functionality that changes the core number of dodges per game mode which has only been applied to Mirage. That is worse than just having one dodge in all 3 modes and getting balanced with that in mind. You keep trying to say we cannot have a valid point of view because we are in the wrong forum. I would argue you are avoiding the real topic and would prefer to choose a debate in which you have some ground to stand on because your present argument has none.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Infusion.7149]

I'm trying to figure out how a thread about alacrity mirage has derailed into talking about mirage's one dodge in PVP/WVW. Splitting dodge totals between modes is a bad design, that is certain.

IH (Infinite Horizon) has been nerfed repeatedly through the reduction of damage output of ambushes on clones, jaunt and blink are not as low a cooldown as before with 30s ammo cooldown on jaunt and 35s cooldown on blink.

In WVW at least you are far more likely to run an alac chrono (wells providing alacrity on cast). Staff is hard countered by reflects and condition removal.

[Moradorin.6217]

18 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I'm trying to figure out how a thread about alacrity mirage has derailed into talking about mirage's one dodge in PVP/WVW. Splitting dodge totals between modes is a bad design, that is certain.

IH (Infinite Horizon) has been nerfed repeatedly through the reduction of damage output of ambushes on clones, jaunt and blink are not as low a cooldown as before with 30s ammo cooldown on jaunt and 35s cooldown on blink.

In WVW at least you are far more likely to run an alac chrono (wells providing alacrity on cast). Staff is hard countered by reflects and condition removal.

I mentioned one dodge in the context of staff in wvw because, well I used staff, scepter, axe, etc in wvw prior to alac being added to staff. They added alac to staff, in my opinion, to throw Mirage some gain after so many nerfs and the remaining axe bug being an issue for most players who try Mirage. That and them trying to avoid addressing one dodge split mode BS. So they made staff a simple boon stick.

At first Alac staff was also crazy dps and was quickly nerfed for over-performing. Mirage was never redressed in wvw and when one dodge in mentioned as an issue people respond that all is well with Mirage cause its really strong dps on a few raids and can do alac on staff. Meanwhile, Mirage has continued to get little nerfs for no logical reason often things that are said to benefit or alter Virt, Core, etc *eyeroll* One dodge has been lingering for like 3 years now and arguably never should have been done. Alac Mirage to me was a bandaid in part to avoid addressing one dodge or the axe bug. Plain and simple, what else could it be??

That is why I mention it here. Because it directly relates to Alac and that it doesnt help Mirage in WvW that I have seen. It doesnt compensate for the still missing dodge.

All it seems to do is take focus off the blatant mistakes that have been made like one dodge by proving a distraction and change of focus for the spec.

In that respect it seems fully on topic.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[draxynnic.3719]

Were people really arguing that one dodge Mirage is fine because Mirage does well on raids?

Tell us you don't play it without telling us you don't play it...

[Waffles.5632]

23 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

No? Again I have literally no issues with Mirage having a second dodge. The problem is that I don't think people generally are ok with the special functionalities of the dodge itself in PvP/WvW, is just not good design. Have you read my post at all? Do you really want to talk about bias when we are literally posting in a class forum?

Again ask this in PvP or WvW and see the response you get instead of the echo chamber that is the class forums. 

Long post sorry!

But I keep seeing this over and over how people say mirage cloak = bad design and it's just not true, while it is certainly one of the strongest mechanics in the game it is also very limited because it is put on Mesmer.

Furthermore, it is not the strongest thing in any regard except evasion. There are a lot of classes that have absolutely broken things and if Mirage Cloak was truly so broken, you would see everyone playing it, just like we all saw with Mecha.

 

Mirage Cloak may have been the strongest on PoF release but this is no longer PoF, this is EoD now, and every single EoD spec is far superior than any PoF/HoT spec. It is not even comparable.

 

Mirage Cloak is fine now, and a second dodge is very much needed with how much EoD bloated everything, in ALL game modes.

 

- There are now more pets than ever before in the entire history of gw2. You may not think much of it, but before EoD it was only Ranger with the "pet", but now you can run up against both ranger and mecha, literally twice the amount of pets on the field than before, and it's very noticeable.

- There are now more AOE classes, absurdly strong AOE classes like Cata, that just litter the field and make the floor lava for everyone. Again VERY noticeable.

- There is now more CC, more mobility on EVERY class than EVER BEFORE in the ENTIRE HISTORY of GW2. Willbender, Vindicator, Mechanist, Bladesworn, Untamed... etc! These classes can not only keep up with Mesmer, they have BETTER mobility than anything Mesmer gets.

 

- Which EoD spec did NOT ship with mobility?

Virtuoso.

KEEP IN MIND, THIEF GOT FIVE SHADOWSTEPS WITH EOD AS WELL.

LOL. Can't make this up if I tried.

 

In PvE it has not mattered since Mirage has 2 dodges, but in PvP/WvW Mirage has never needed it's second dodge more than right now. You cannot call it bad design when every class now has "bad design" in it now because EoD specs have broken all the traditional rules of GW2 balance.

EoD solidified the intent that the devs want "broken mechanics" look no further than DRAGONSLASH which is the king of broken mechanics by and far away. Keep in mind, I say this as a good thing. It's not like the EoD specs are unfun or bad, they are just bloated and overtuned, while at the same time all PoF/HoT specs have been undertuned/trimmed so much there is no fat.

This is why you have been seeing buff after buff to non EoD specs, to bring them in line. This is also why they even said outright they're talking about the 2nd dodge, because they realize how EoD literally hanged the entire field as far as "balance" goes.

 

Not really specifying this at you per se, but still, it's time to stop this nonsense of  "Mirage Cloak most broken thing in game bad design so bad" because it's just not true anymore. Not with EoD.

When compared to EoD, Mirage Cloak is a perfectly fine and balanced mechanic no stronger than anything the EoD specs get. It is in line with everything atm.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Moradorin.6217]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Were people really arguing that one dodge Mirage is fine because Mirage does well on raids?

Tell us you don't play it without telling us you don't play it...

Actually in a word...Yes. That was often the response when saying that Mirage has an issue because of the split mode # of dodges. That is, the response is typically that many are unaware since they dont wvw/pvp. If they are aware they either agree that one dodge sucks or they only pve or mostly play other specs and therefore dont feel impacted enough to focus on it. 

People often respond that Mirage may have one dodge in pvp/wvw but that its ok because axe is really strong dps in pve and staff has alac now. That is exactly the typical response.

The other common response is to simply assert that Mirage was hard to balance because it could still hit dodge when CCed (by design)(yes btw, it was supposed to be able to dodge to break CC originally so, for sure, by design to be able to dodge if CCed.) So it just cannot have 2 dodges in pvp/wvw. You see, this other argument goes that since it was hard to balance it was ok to remove a dodge in pvp/wvw and leave it with 2 in pve because balance is hard. 

This idea that Mirage was too hard to balance in wvw/pvp was the first argument for keeping 1 dodge but it started to look feeble on its own so IMO they mixed it up by adding alac to staff. Ever since the Mirage is ok cause it can do alac became another facet of the argument that keeps the focus off of the messed up split mode core functionality that is on Mirage and Mirage only with the variable # of dodges per game mode.

[Waffles.5632]

Let us not also forget that it is HISTORICAL FACT that the old dev buffed staff because they hated axe, and so that is the very definition of bad faith acting and biased decision making. Instead of actually trying to fix the class' defining weapon, they buffed staff because it was simply easier at that time.

 

Staff buffs should have never of happened, axe should have gotten fixed, and Power Mirage should have been the focus for the pvp side of things until they found a way to address the oppression of condi. This was back then, right now, with EoD, I still think Condi would be a bit much, but not by a lot, and if anything it would just be tied with the the top pvp specs atm. By that I mean I don't see Condi Mirage w/ 2 dodges as "crazy" anymore considering what we have now with EoD, so it could still be super strong but I doubt it.

 

FURTHERMORE, Mirage Cloak used to be 1sec duration, it is now 3/4th sec duration, while some ambushes STILL have a 1sec cast time (looking at you staff!) meaning NO MATTER WHAT, you can't fully cover certain ambushes with one mirage cloak. In PvP sword is the most affected since you can be damaged/CC'd MID AIR while NOT being able to have any sort of evasion EVEN IF you use your sword ambush right after you Mirage Cloak. When MC was 1sec these issues did not exist because the MC covered the full leap if cast immediately after.

(^^^ Quickness does not solve all ambush issues as Sword Leap is unaffected, but quickness at least solves Staff ambush issue)

 

ALSO KEEP IN MIND THE VIGOR NERFS, which indirectly nerfed Mirage Cloak because now there was less uptime.

 

 

But the bottom line is, IMO, Alac was the worst thing to give to Mirage because it shoved chrono out of it's spot while fixing none of the actual Mirage issues, and Mirage needs to have it's 2nd dodge back already for PvP/WvW AND either fix the problem ambushes, OR revert back to 1sec MC duration.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Actually in a word...Yes. That was often the response when saying that Mirage has an issue because of the split mode # of dodges. That is, the response is typically that many are unaware since they dont wvw/pvp. If they are aware they either agree that one dodge sucks or they only pve or mostly play other specs and therefore dont feel impacted enough to focus on it. 

People often respond that Mirage may have one dodge in pvp/wvw but that its ok because axe is really strong dps in pve and staff has alac now. That is exactly the typical response.

Yeah, and as a response, all it really does is show their ignorance. Mirage's performance in PvE is irrelevant to any discussion on one dodge because one dodge was never implemented in PvE. It's not a situation of 'they do well in PvE despite one dodge, so obviously it's not so crippling after all' - they do well in PvE because they still have two dodges in PvE.

At best it's a 'doesn't matter if you suck in one game mode as long as you're good in another' argument.

Yeah, I know, preaching to the choir, but it really strikes me as a 'if you played it you'd know it didn't apply in PvE' issue.

(Honestly, I rolled my eyes when they claimed one dodge worked so well when they unveiled vindicator, and the change to two dodges came as no surprise. One dodge never really worked, it was just a bandaid that never received a proper fix.)

Edited December 10, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Curunen.8729]

One thing that bothers me now is up to 4 blue circles around the player every dodge.

Yes I know you can turn off the area of effect rings in the options menu - but this also disables enemy aoes which is really stupid.

Otherwise every single dodge it's really jarring to see these flat circles on the floor - detracts from the combat aesthetic of mirage. It was bad enough with one - I never liked it but coped with it - but now it's an eyesore.

Either make a separate ally/enemy aoe ring toggle in the options menu, make something more visually appealing, or revert this non-thematic alacrity nonsense (give back deception cooldowns) and move the spec in another direction.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Curunen.8729