Downstate is a PVE feature, remove it from PVP

[Crab Fear.8623]

It has no balanced place in the game mode, any monkey with 3 braincells could determine this, and I am truly shocked Anet hasn't.

 

3 braincells is all it takes

[Sereath.1428]

Why is there no downed penalty at the very least?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Downed_penalty

And maybe even https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exposed for the one reviving the downed player.

[Dawdler.8521]

And more than 4 braincells is required to realize that downstate is just another tactical layer of combat and something that makes PvP a little less braindead than other games, I guess.

[Bast.7253]

I agree. Just think of how much balancing has gone into these revive utility skills over the past few years. I can't think of any unique cases right now where this wouldn't work but what if they were then able to bake the res help traits into the main profession (since it won't be applicable in pvp/wvw) and tweak those to help the profession fit whatever niche it might need in that traitline. 

I can see why people may like its existence in terms of counterplay by running revive utilities to gain an advantage but I think "bleeding" someone out is toxic and needlessly frustrating to deal with. 

There's also just downed abilities that are laughable to others - like ele's roots that half the time seem to miss and a (haha you can't kill me yet) button to - necro that can heal itself to full health much faster or the true king of downed state - Rangers that can chain cc you while in downstate and have their pet res them faster than you can finish them if you don't prespam an invuln/stab. And yes, I'm aware that ele's mist form does provide the ability for counterplay during a highly situational fight. But does that add enough value to, as a player and a human being that values your time, make up for the colossal amount of time you will have spent in all matches combined just staring at the screen waiting for your healthbar to run out because someone left you to bleed and is waiting 300 yards away to camp you and make sure you don't get up? 

It's just toxic to me and if you happen to be the one needing to "carry" your team, or at least can't afford to stay in downed state for too long because it's heavily skewed towards the other team, you get farmed. I feel like the main argument for this is still "high-level gameplay" and "strategy" but does that mean it's a good one that provides a positive impact on this gamemode?

 

[Gladiotor.7561]

It has a place imho. Gives a unique flavor to GW2 pvp but it has to be reworked for sure. 

Maybe give everyone the same downed skills in pvp cause rangers have it much better than for example thieves.

Do one rally per kill and invoke a penalty when you have been revived or rallied. 

[Crab Fear.8623]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

And more than 4 braincells is required to realize that downstate is just another tactical layer of combat and something that makes PvP a little less braindead than other games, I guess.

A tactical layer?

It is not balanced.

It gives an undeserved second chance.

It invalidates all if the "standing" layers of tactics that get one to downstate in the first place.

 

Defenders of Downstate, "for flavor".

[Dawdler.8521]

40 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

A tactical layer?

It is not balanced.

It gives an undeserved second chance.

It invalidates all if the "standing" layers of tactics that get one to downstate in the first place.

 

Defenders of Downstate, "for flavor".

That argument invalidates PvP as a whole, since all classes differ and are from what people keep saying not exactly balanced.

[Fueki.4753]

If down state was going to be removed from sPvP due to "balance", everything would have to be removed from sPvP.

There's nothing balanced in sPvP.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

I wish. They did a no down state for wvw one weekend long ago. And it was freaken amazing. I wish this for pvp....kill or be killed, no second chances.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Kayberz.5346]

Remove rallying from kills in pvp.

 

If you get in downstate the only way to revive is by being manually revived.

No more of the cheese of 1 rally bait player getting killed and rezzing the 3 downed players to half health, completely flipping  what should have been won teamfight just because 1 player died at a specific time.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Kayberz.5346

[bigben.3254]

Add crawl to downstate

[Crab Fear.8623]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If down state was going to be removed from sPvP due to "balance", everything would have to be removed from sPvP.

There's nothing balanced in sPvP.

Balance is one of the reasons, but the invalidation of a better players tactics to buy time for the loser is the primary reason this garbage should not be in pvp.

You down, you dead, sounds better.

[Luvo.6350]

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

downstate is just another tactical layer of combat and something that makes PvP a little less braindead than other games

I agree.

It adds something if you cant just mindlessly stack on that one downed player and cleave but instead have to pressure the enemy supp until y get the kill. Or when you have to wait before u down that 1 percent enemy so he wont rally from your already downed 1 percent ally. It makes you think of your actions and promotes team play, which should be a good thing. If anything the possibilitys of communication have to be improved to enhance said team play.

 

20 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Remove rallying from kills in pvp.

 

If you get in downstate the only way to revive is by being manually revived.

No more of the cheese of 1 rally bait player getting killed and rezzing the 3 downed players to half health, completely flipping  what should have been won teamfight just because 1 player died at a specific time.

Disagreed. I get why this may be frustrating to players but its part of team play. Nobody (mostly, ill come back to that) gets a disadvantage here. If you manage to down enemy players but cant prevent your own teammates from getting downed and killed before you get kills then you simply have to overthink your tactic and instead of investing everything in chasing kills you have to protect your weakest players and cleave downed enemies immediately.

 

8 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

I can see why people may like its existence in terms of counterplay by running revive utilities to gain an advantage but I think "bleeding" someone out is toxic and needlessly frustrating to deal with. 

There's also just downed abilities that are laughable to others - like ele's roots that half the time seem to miss and a (haha you can't kill me yet) button to - necro that can heal itself to full health much faster or the true king of downed state - Rangers that can chain cc you while in downstate and have their pet res them faster than you can finish them if you don't prespam an invuln/stab. And yes, I'm aware that ele's mist form does provide the ability for counterplay during a highly situational fight. But does that add enough value to, as a player and a human being that values your time, make up for the colossal amount of time you will have spent in all matches combined just staring at the screen waiting for your healthbar to run out because someone left you to bleed and is waiting 300 yards away to camp you and make sure you don't get up? 

It's just toxic to me and if you happen to be the one needing to "carry" your team, or at least can't afford to stay in downed state for too long because it's heavily skewed towards the other team, you get farmed. I feel like the main argument for this is still "high-level gameplay" and "strategy" but does that mean it's a good one that provides a positive impact on this gamemode?

 

I see why ppl might find bleeding toxic but you have to understand that it is simply a tool to gain points risk free. If you die and are bleed out by yourself it adds about i belive 20 to 30 sec to you not being on the map and your allies basically being outnumbered. However this also comes with the risk that you can rally during that time by revive, enemy kill or instares. Also if you die on node you have to get cleaved if it is not the enemies node or smone has to sit with ya, which somewhat reduces the effectiveness of letting you bleed. They still ofc get value in form of ``free´´ points for their team, what they should. After all it is a penalty for dying, which also gives the opportunity for rallying as a game mechanic like mentioned above. And going downstate should be prevented at all costs anyway. If you die you made a mistake and have to improve.

 

I do agree though that some classes may have a bit of an advantage over others when it comes to downstate skills. Especially ranger, which as far as i know is the only class that can use its class mechanic in downstate. Imagine Warrior being able to earthshaker or dragontrigger in downstate or thief to steal or mesmer to friggin shatter xd. And ya that is somewhat the only part about downed state i think needs some touch.

Other than that i simply see it as a healthy game mechanic that enhances and promotes tactical gameplay.

[Luvo.6350]

12 hours ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

Why is there no downed penalty at the very least?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Downed_penalty

And maybe even https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exposed for the one reviving the downed player.

 That may be the only thing i could get behind if really necessary. Though i think both of those are kinda harsh and just ensure that a revived player will die instantly again, which would make the whole revive mechanic obsolete... Instead i would maybe duggest a debuff that completely prevents a second ress for a period of time so teams cant spam double supp with insta ress and trait ress. (Which i dont necessarily mind btw. It can be frustrating and maybe even unfun for some to fight those teams but there are still strategies to counter something like this. So implementing this debuff might actually trim down variety, why again this is only a suggestion if anyone seriously thinks about touching downstate)

[Stallic.2397]

The Meta will just flip to extremely high stealth burst. 

 

Roamers and gankers everywhere.

 

No need to invest in any team fighting or tanking if you can just kill all enemies within 5sec or less then move on to the next. 

 

 

[Crab Fear.8623]

3 hours ago, Stallic.2397 said:

The Meta will just flip to extremely high stealth burst. 

 

Roamers and gankers everywhere.

 

No need to invest in any team fighting or tanking if you can just kill all enemies within 5sec or less then move on to the next. 

 

 

No, it would just remove OP hybrids from the game mode, who want it all.

Cause a tank don't get gank.

But you want a dps tank support in the game, by the way is sounds, and the class you play most.

[Stallic.2397]

58 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

No, it would just remove OP hybrids from the game mode, who want it all.

Cause a tank don't get gank.

But you want a dps tank support in the game, by the way is sounds, and the class you play most.

 

Lol, I don't want a dps tank support class. But I understand, most things I play come across as OP to other people.

 

 

If downstate was removed, the Meta would flip to high stealth burst. If there's a team of five burst players, and the other team tries to counter with 1-2 tanks, the burst team will just target the other three squishy classes. One by one picking them off 

 

If the tankier team tries two tanks and a support, the burst team will still blow up the two dps or tank at home, while avoiding the support/tank duo sitting at mid. 

 

If this is possible, why doesn't it happen already?? Because the support or tank usually just revives the downstates before they die. Then the burst team is screwed cause they don't have enough sustain to survive teamfights. But if players die automatically, it's just a matter of picking players off one by one. 

[Crab Fear.8623]

13 minutes ago, Stallic.2397 said:

 

Lol, I don't want a dps tank support class. But I understand, most things I play come across as OP to other people.

 

 

If downstate was removed, the Meta would flip to high stealth burst. If there's a team of five burst players, and the other team tries to counter with 1-2 tanks, the burst team will just target the other three squishy classes. One by one picking them off 

 

If the tankier team tries two tanks and a support, the burst team will still blow up the two dps or tank at home, while avoiding the support/tank duo sitting at mid. 

 

If this is possible, why doesn't it happen already?? Because the support or tank usually just revives the downstates before they die. Then the burst team is screwed cause they don't have enough sustain to survive teamfights. But if players die automatically, it's just a matter of picking players off one by one. 

 

Why is downstate standardized?

One skillbar, one healthset?

Why should there be any traits that boost reviving, but none for stomping?

 

I like to think players would be more conscientious in their build choices, and of course gankers are already subject to basically no downstate so they don't or won't notice the change.

Attrition builds are the ones that don't want it gone, because they benefit the most from it.

 

[NotFound.7813]

18 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

I agree. Just think of how much balancing has gone into these revive utility skills over the past few years. I can't think of any unique cases right now where this wouldn't work but what if they were then able to bake the res help traits into the main profession (since it won't be applicable in pvp/wvw) and tweak those to help the profession fit whatever niche it might need in that traitline. 

I can see why people may like its existence in terms of counterplay by running revive utilities to gain an advantage but I think "bleeding" someone out is toxic and needlessly frustrating to deal with. 

There's also just downed abilities that are laughable to others - like ele's roots that half the time seem to miss and a (haha you can't kill me yet) button to - necro that can heal itself to full health much faster or the true king of downed state - Rangers that can chain cc you while in downstate and have their pet res them faster than you can finish them if you don't prespam an invuln/stab. And yes, I'm aware that ele's mist form does provide the ability for counterplay during a highly situational fight. But does that add enough value to, as a player and a human being that values your time, make up for the colossal amount of time you will have spent in all matches combined just staring at the screen waiting for your healthbar to run out because someone left you to bleed and is waiting 300 yards away to camp you and make sure you don't get up? 

It's just toxic to me and if you happen to be the one needing to "carry" your team, or at least can't afford to stay in downed state for too long because it's heavily skewed towards the other team, you get farmed. I feel like the main argument for this is still "high-level gameplay" and "strategy" but does that mean it's a good one that provides a positive impact on this gamemode?

 

Bleeding is a skilled mechanic, if it happens you die out of position its your fault.

 

It encourages strategy as you must want to do certain things you wouldnt without it.

 

It benefits playing on a node thats yours, so when you push far you must know you can be bleeded.

 

First think you must want to die on node if you already know u wont survive so you wont be bleeded out (doesnt mean that you shoud try to kite if you can survive). This can be countered by lauched skills like revs herald dragon ult wich throws u out of node.

 

Bleeding is risky, you can get signet or glyphed. 

 

A sneaky thief can ress you. It happens a lot on ranked. For example most gold players dont know its not worth to use downstate attacks when theres the posibility to get stealthed by a thief for an easy ress. Or mostly they attack while getting stomped and prevent that any of their teammates slteath them w for example elixir on engi to avoid the stomp and acomplish a easy ress.

 

When i play supp cguard some matched i can ress easily rez 8 ppl just cuz i use my shield trait/stab on downed left out bleeding.  

For example, if you get plused on close and your supp is on his way to you after mid is won without signed being needed its a skilled thing you got enough awareness to kite towards you support so it can result on a resutain or a ress at the worse scenario . If you kite far away at the opposite direction where ur supp is coming your enemy can have enough awareness to cleave you out before you can get signed . Resulting on your supp getting stucked at the worse scenario.

 

It encourages skilled gameplay, rupting signets  for example. Moving downed when you know it will get signeted.  All are game changing moments wich encourage skilledgameplay and made a difference between a good or a bad player.

 

It encourages a posibility to make different designs like Necros who can pull downeds w shround4 resultin on a ress if u can pull em w your team on a safe spot out of cleave.  Or druids playing with ress glyph + CA stealth to prevent stomps.

 

The ress traits where outperforming cuz it was an isnta ress by 1 person just by pressing F w a way low CD.  But it was fairly nerfed to the groud by changing revival pulse from 7% to 1%. Ress skills like glyph or signet are not the same since they have fair long ruptable cast time while having a way longer CD. 

 

 

Ele ress skill its a big example. You can get easily be ressed by a thief who stealth u + move out of cleave on a unknow spot for your enemy w mistform resulting on a easy ress. You can use portal while downed also (wich is less common there days due to both portals being nerf nerfed) .

 

I can name endless situations where downstate encourages skilled gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by NotFound.7813

[Crab Fear.8623]

31 minutes ago, NotFound.7813 said:

Bleeding is a skilled mechanic, if it happens you die out of position its your fault.

 

It encourages strategy as you must want to do certain things you wouldnt without it.

 

It benefits playing on a node thats yours, so when you push far you must know you can be bleeded.

 

First think you must want to die on node if you already know u wont survive so you wont be bleeded out (doesnt mean that you shoud try to kite if you can survive). This can be countered by lauched skills like revs herald dragon ult wich throws u out of node.

 

Bleeding is risky, you can get signet or glyphed. 

 

A sneaky thief can ress you. It happens a lot on ranked. For example most gold players dont know its not worth to use downstate attacks when theres the posibility to get stealthed by a thief for an easy ress. Or mostly they attack while getting stomped and prevent that any of their teammates slteath them w for example elixir on engi to avoid the stomp and acomplish a easy ress.

 

When i play supp cguard some matched i can ress easily rez 8 ppl just cuz i use my shield trait/stab on downed left out bleeding.  

For example, if you get plused on close and your supp is on his way to you after mid is won without signed being needed its a skilled thing you got enough awareness to kite towards you support so it can result on a resutain or a ress at the worse scenario . If you kite far away at the opposite direction where ur supp is coming your enemy can have enough awareness to cleave you out before you can get signed . Resulting on your supp getting stucked at the worse scenario.

 

It encourages skilled gameplay, rupting signets  for example. Moving downed when you know it will get signeted.  All are game changing moments wich encourage skilledgameplay and made a difference between a good or a bad player.

 

It encourages a posibility to make different designs like Necros who can pull downeds w shround4 resultin on a ress if u can pull em w your team on a safe spot out of cleave.  Or druids playing with ress glyph + CA stealth to prevent stomps.

 

The ress traits where outperforming cuz it was an isnta ress by 1 person just by pressing F w a way low CD.  But it was fairly nerfed to the groud by changing revival pulse from 7% to 1%. Ress skills like glyph or signet are not the same since they have fair long ruptable cast time while having a way longer CD. 

 

 

Ele ress skill its a big example. You can get easily be ressed by a thief who stealth u + move out of cleave on a unknow spot for your enemy w mistform resulting on a easy ress. You can use portal while downed also (wich is less common there days due to both portals being nerf nerfed) .

 

I can name endless situations where downstate encourages skilled gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You would be right, if everyone, regardless of class, had the same downstate skillbar.

They don't.

So, you are wrong.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Crab Fear.8623

[NotFound.7813]

7 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

You would be right, if everyone, regardless of class, had the same downstate skillbar.

They don't.

So, you are wrong.

 

Why arent all wep skills the same regardless of class?💀💀💀

 

[Crab Fear.8623]

36 minutes ago, NotFound.7813 said:

 

Why arent all wep skills the same regardless of class?💀💀💀

 

We are talking about a final struggle on the ground....🤖

You will just throw dirt, and try to cover your wounds.

Doofus

Edited November 14, 2022 by Crab Fear.8623

[NotFound.7813]

17 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

We are talking about a final struggle on the ground....🤖

You will just throw dirt, and try to cover your wounds.

Doofus

 

And? Downed skills form part of class identity still lmao

[Kayberz.5346]

10 hours ago, Luvo.6350 said:

I agree.

It adds something if you cant just mindlessly stack on that one downed player and cleave but instead have to pressure the enemy supp until y get the kill. Or when you have to wait before u down that 1 percent enemy so he wont rally from your already downed 1 percent ally. It makes you think of your actions and promotes team play, which should be a good thing. If anything the possibilitys of communication have to be improved to enhance said team play.

 

Disagreed. I get why this may be frustrating to players but its part of team play. Nobody (mostly, ill come back to that) gets a disadvantage here. If you manage to down enemy players but cant prevent your own teammates from getting downed and killed before you get kills then you simply have to overthink your tactic and instead of investing everything in chasing kills you have to protect your weakest players and cleave downed enemies immediately.

 

I see why ppl might find bleeding toxic but you have to understand that it is simply a tool to gain points risk free. If you die and are bleed out by yourself it adds about i belive 20 to 30 sec to you not being on the map and your allies basically being outnumbered. However this also comes with the risk that you can rally during that time by revive, enemy kill or instares. Also if you die on node you have to get cleaved if it is not the enemies node or smone has to sit with ya, which somewhat reduces the effectiveness of letting you bleed. They still ofc get value in form of ``free´´ points for their team, what they should. After all it is a penalty for dying, which also gives the opportunity for rallying as a game mechanic like mentioned above. And going downstate should be prevented at all costs anyway. If you die you made a mistake and have to improve.

 

I do agree though that some classes may have a bit of an advantage over others when it comes to downstate skills. Especially ranger, which as far as i know is the only class that can use its class mechanic in downstate. Imagine Warrior being able to earthshaker or dragontrigger in downstate or thief to steal or mesmer to friggin shatter xd. And ya that is somewhat the only part about downed state i think needs some touch.

Other than that i simply see it as a healthy game mechanic that enhances and promotes tactical gameplay.

You may call it "tactical" that in some cases you are better off waiting until an unsavable downed teamate dies before putting an enemy in downstate because downing them 1 second too early will result in them instantly rallying to half health effectively healing them when they were literally just at 1% health a second before

but i would call it BS cheese thst has no place in competitive pvp.

 

Rallying from nearby deaths in pvp promotes all or nothing snowbally teamfights.

 

You shouldn't be able to have 4 teammates in downstate instantly revive to half health completely flipping a lost teamfight just because a daredevil or w/e gets a cheesy kill on 1 person before you can finish all 4 downed players

Edited November 14, 2022 by Kayberz.5346

[Luvo.6350]

6 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

You may call it "tactical" that in some cases you are better off waiting until an unsavable downed teamate dies before putting an enemy in downstate because downing them 1 second too early will result in them instantly rallying to half health effectively healing them when they were literally just at 1% health a second before

but i would call it BS cheese thst has no place in competitive pvp.

 

You shouldn't be able to have 4 teammates in downstate instantly revive to half health completely flipping a lost teamfight just because a daredevil or w/e gets a cheesy kill on 1 person before you can finish all 4 downed players

 

That is exactly what a tactic is though. Tactic: ''An action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.'' Your making a strategy tho kill those enemy players where you have to actually plan your actions. Where as without that feature you dont have to plan, just cleave.

So ya i WOULD say it ads tactical depth to the game. And yes if you fail then you effectively heal the enemy, which only would be punishment for your failure to execute the plan.

And again if you know you have a squish teammate and there is a ''cheesy'' dd then you have to change your tactic and put more effort in protecting your team.

 

 

5 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Rallying from nearby deaths in pvp promotes all or nothing snowbally teamfights.

 

Sure you could play around downstate this way and headless jump in and hope your team obliterates the enemy before they do it to you. Or like i already mentioned you can make a safer tactic, play as a team, peel for and supp each other and adjust to the enemy tactics and movement.

 

So ya in my eyes there is absolutely nothing unfair about downstate, apart from ranger class mechanic maybe. It only adds tactical depth to great combat system. I very much would like to keep it that way.