When the Participation System Punishes Participation

[Aly Cat.9415]

The participation system is meant to discourage people going AFK or being inactive, but it also punishes losing. This is particularly problematic when there is a population imbalance, which in turn worsens the population imbalance. For example, one team has taken over all the WvW maps because the other 2 teams are underpopulated. If a member of a different team attempts to do anything, even just taking a sentry, they get killed because they are outnumbered by campers. No participation credit, participation decays, player is essentially punished for attempting to play despite population imbalance, player leaves, population imbalance remains/intensifies. Losing seems like punishment enough.

 

It also seems to defeat the purpose of having different reward systems between the general WvW rewards, pips (which are already reduced for losing teams, or flat out not rewarded when participation decays) and the reward tracks - none of which can be progressed when your server is empty. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Aly Cat.9415

[Xenesis.6389]

One server is camping four maps from two teams, impressive.

 

Thanks for the confusion ppter's 🤣 btw sos doesn't seem to have trouble ppting and double teaming in t2, hm wonder what their problem really was.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[Thron Stal.9367]

55 minutes ago, Aly Cat.9415 said:

The participation system is meant to discourage people going AFK or being inactive, but it also punishes losing. This is particularly problematic when there is a population imbalance, which in turn worsens the population imbalance. For example, one team has taken over all the WvW maps because the other 2 teams are underpopulated. If a member of a different team attempts to do anything, even just taking a sentry, they get killed because they are outnumbered by campers. No participation credit, participation decays, player is essentially punished for attempting to play despite population imbalance, player leaves, population imbalance remains/intensifies. Losing seems like punishment enough.

 

It also seems to defeat the purpose of having different reward systems between the general WvW rewards, pips (which are already reduced for losing teams, or flat out not rewarded when participation decays) and the reward tracks - none of which can be progressed when your server is empty. 

 

10 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

One server is camping four maps from two teams, impressive.

Yeah, I hate when this scenario happens, especially at the same time.  Seems to be the norm now.  People are refusing to play wvw now. 

[Bariel.3562]

Although spawn camping occurs I most commonly see it  because solo players take the 1 route over and over again to get farmed. Each spawn has 3 routes out of it so to say 1 team can stop both other teams even capping a sentry they'd have to be cover 2 teams x 4 maps x 3 routes out - 24 locations. It doesn't happen unless you allow it.

Admittedly it's frustrating when a group is camping spawns, especially  the small groups that rely on their mobility to avoid any equal/outnumbered fights and just gank 5v1, cowards always gonna be cowards and I can just go a different route or group with a few and watch them scatter.

For me it's nothing to do with participation, the game makes it easy to transfer worlds and/or create alt accounts so you will get the better/more organised groups transferring to the higher tier servers (not different than any sport with multiple leagues where players transfer teams) and that is ultimately  what leads to the population imbalance most of all.

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

8 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

One server is camping four maps from two teams, impressive.

Because roamers running around in packs on the other maps once the main one is full isn't uncommon? Its perfectly possible to have even borderlands camps and sentries denied to you during a bad matchup, and there's only so much shifting around between maps you can do before giving up.

[Mabi black.1824]

32 minutes ago, Bariel.3562 said:

Although spawn camping occurs I most commonly see it  because solo players take the 1 route over and over again to get farmed. Each spawn has 3 routes out of it so to say 1 team can stop both other teams even capping a sentry they'd have to be cover 2 teams x 4 maps x 3 routes out - 24 locations. It doesn't happen unless you allow it.

Admittedly it's frustrating when a group is camping spawns, especially  the small groups that rely on their mobility to avoid any equal/outnumbered fights and just gank 5v1, cowards always gonna be cowards and I can just go a different route or group with a few and watch them scatter.

For me it's nothing to do with participation, the game makes it easy to transfer worlds and/or create alt accounts so you will get the better/more organised groups transferring to the higher tier servers (not different than any sport with multiple leagues where players transfer teams) and that is ultimately  what leads to the population imbalance most of all.

 

This is a really good observation, it describes what happens during the games. This is why we want to control the results they bring with alliances. Because we want similar streams and players on all matches from T1 to T4. They have the opportunity to rebuild the serves from scratch every time, so it is not enough for us to have balanced matches in T1 or T2. We want similar numbers from the most extreme point of T1 to the lowest point of T4.

Then I can say that you have built a good balance mechanic in WVW. How we then use all this balance, with what competitive logic it has to work no one knows yet. We hope to be able to discuss this with ANET.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Mabi black.1824

[Gorani.7205]

I find it highly unlikely, that you can be spawn camped on all maps, at every exit, at any time, not to mention that enemies sitting there waiting will need participation too and their only source is people running out of spawn to their doom.

I my experience, going for the small targets when I am the underdog server is very easy, because you can chose a wide variety of of them. Of course you can't can't assault a T2/T3 tower on the fly out of spawn, but you have plenty of shrines, sentries and dollys to kill and don't even have to follow a foreseeable pattern.
If anything is something that puts you down, it is being ranked 3rd, when it comes to pips and you don't have a baseline of WvW ranks & dedication from the week before. But participation can't really be the problem, in my opinion.

[Meva.8327]

The OP has a very valid point.

 

I was linked with Maguuma last reset. When the map was all Maguuma's, the Maguuma+ players started a game to chase and hunt dots: it was the only thing to do for participation, outside of escorting yaks. I called a few times in map chat when a sentry got a dot, and in less than 20 seconds there were more than 5 Maguuma+ players on the unfortunate brave enemy, who could not even kill the sentry.

 

In other scenario: losing 1v1. If you do not win your 1v1 skirmish, either a stalemate lasting forever or you lose, you do not get participation at all.

 

These examples prove the OP point, namely participation really punishes the underdog to try and do stuff.

There are tons of troll and whiny threads on Maguuma, but there is something that is true in all this: if Maguuma gets all EBG green, they are playing by the rules.

ANET should encourage brave souls who try to do anything when outnumbered. For example, ANET could grant participation if you are killed when outnumbered, as long as you managed to tap your killer at least once.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Meva.8327

[Xenesis.6389]

11 minutes ago, Meva.8327 said:

For example, ANET could grant participation if you are killed when outnumbered, as long as you managed to tap your killer at least once.

You seriously don't see how that can be abused?

All this talk about not getting participation from being killed, you know the enemy doesn't get participation either unless they kill you right? so either kill them first or run away and try again or try something else. Participation is suppose to encourage you to go out and do something, you are rewarded for when you succeed, not for losing. How you succeed is entirely up to you, there are ways to have things in your favor to do so.

 

5 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Because roamers running around in packs on the other maps once the main one is full isn't uncommon? Its perfectly possible to have even borderlands camps and sentries denied to you during a bad matchup, and there's only so much shifting around between maps you can do before giving up.

Well yeah ebg being queued and roamers on the other three maps happens on all servers every day, but to fully lock down all three maps with just roamers that you can't even take a sentry? doesn't happen much, and only in special situations, like two sides not showing up.

But if the enemy has ebg queued and roamers on the other maps, while the two other servers don't have ebg queued and three empty maps to play on, where are their players? Oh right, they decided to take a vacation. So when those two sides lose objectives, can't muster enough players, or won't group up, to even take a camp back even on their homebl, who's fault is that really? Same thing happened for years against BG or SoS ocx, the very same players who now come and complain about it happening to them.

If a server really doesn't have enough players, well then tank until your server hits the right tier, cause it's the week after relink and no matches are going to be perfect. As usual it takes a couple weeks for servers to get into their appropriate tiers. People seem to think winning means nothing, but I'd guess the new meaning is denying your enemy rewards to win.

I'm out from any more of these discussion, it's obvious people can't help themselves no matter how much advice you give them, the excuses are getting more outrageous, and the bait threads are getting more frequent, it's not funny anymore, just sad, for everyone.

[Meva.8327]

4 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

You seriously don't see how that can be abused?

I perfectly see it, and I am very happy with that tradeoff: as long as you can get participation just by bravely facing the spawn campers, you win.

It is not easy to win in an Outnumbered map, especially if you are not seasoned enough in the PvP arts. That is exactly the OP point: the current participation favours the winner and discourages the loser.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Meva.8327

[Xenesis.6389]

On 11/28/2022 at 1:55 PM, Meva.8327 said:

I perfectly see it, and I am very happy with that tradeoff: as long as you can get participation just by bravely facing the spawn campers, you win.

Running into a meat grinder is not "brave" it's "braindead idiotic" and that type of play should not be rewarded. Nor should someone sitting in their camp waiting for some roamer to come along to take their camp and kill them but they get participation anyways cause they auto attacked. Sorry, but no.

If a player can't even take a sentry to get participation, they need to get out of the game mode, seriously, it's not for them.

 

Thanks for the confusion ppter's 🤣 btw sos doesn't seem to have trouble ppting and double teaming in t2, hm wonder what their problem really was.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[Meva.8327]

2 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

If a player can't even take a sentry to get participation, they need to get out of the game mode, seriously, it's not for them.

That is exactly the OP point: in the current setup for participation, only the winners and the best players are rewarded, but your average Joe/Jane is punished to zero participation.

In this current framework, the underdog who is spawn camped all day long and is not good enough to beat seasoned roamers (and sometimes gankers) on a 1v2 is not only not rewarded but punished for even trying.

[Aly Cat.9415]

On 11/28/2022 at 1:52 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

You seriously don't see how that can be abused?

All this talk about not getting participation from being killed, you know the enemy doesn't get participation either unless they kill you right? so either kill them first or run away and try again or try something else. Participation is suppose to encourage you to go out and do something, you are rewarded for when you succeed, not for losing. How you succeed is entirely up to you, there are ways to have things in your favor to do so.

 

Well yeah ebg being queued and roamers on the other three maps happens on all servers every day, but to fully lock down all three maps with just roamers that you can't even take a sentry? doesn't happen much, and only in special situations, like two sides not showing up.

But if the enemy has ebg queued and roamers on the other maps, while the two other servers don't have ebg queued and three empty maps to play on, where are their players? Oh right, they decided to take a vacation. So when those two sides lose objectives, can't muster enough players, or won't group up, to even take a camp back even on their homebl, who's fault is that really? Same thing happened for years against BG or SoS ocx, the very same players who now come and complain about it happening to them.

If a server really doesn't have enough players, well then tank until your server hits the right tier, cause it's the week after relink and no matches are going to be perfect. As usual it takes a couple weeks for servers to get into their appropriate tiers. People seem to think winning means nothing, but I'd guess the new meaning is denying your enemy rewards to win.

I'm out from any more of these discussion, it's obvious people can't help themselves no matter how much advice you give them, the excuses are getting more outrageous, and the bait threads are getting more frequent, it's not funny anymore, just sad, for everyone.

First of all, I'm rarely on the forums. 5 posts (playing since pre-launch) to your 1000+. I did a search on the topic before I even posted, and nothing about participation came up but my apologies that I didn't check in with you personally. Second of all, I don't see how I, a single player, am responsible for not just one but two servers mostly quitting WvW. And yeah, mag had people on all four maps, and groups defending towers/watching sentries and camps. Not 1-2. 3 or more. I can switch to a non-support build for solo play and kill enough NPCs in between the 3 veterans spawning to maintain participation but that's still playing around a design flaw, and it's not just about me anyway. 

 

On the flip side, when you have max participation, you have nearly 10 minutes to goof off when you're doing well (or at least your team) before you need to tag something again (and back to goofing off). In its present state, participation IS easily exploited when a team does well so the developers (is there some other way to reach out to developers?)  might want to consider whether the participation system is working as intended. Worst case scenario it can be feast (if you cheese it) or famine.

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Aly Cat.9415

[Svarty.8019]

On 11/28/2022 at 3:16 AM, Aly Cat.9415 said:

It also seems to defeat the purpose of having different reward systems between the general WvW rewards, pips (which are already reduced for losing teams, or flat out not rewarded when participation decays) and the reward tracks - none of which can be progressed when your server is empty. 

Rewards are slated to be addressed....

 

 

... after the heat-death of the universe World Restructuring, lol! 

 

AAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAA

HAHAHAHAHHA!!!

HAHAHAH!

HAH!

[Nora.9207]

On 11/28/2022 at 4:01 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

One server is camping four maps from two teams, impressive.

Nit sure you have got the idea, 1 server is dominating all 4 maps and the other servers can do eff all bout it except log off and wait a week - got it now?

[Xenesis.6389]

On 11/30/2022 at 3:10 PM, Nora.9207 said:

Nit sure you have got the idea, 1 server is dominating all 4 maps and the other servers can do eff all bout it except log off and wait a week - got it now?

Thanks professor. 🙄

Btw the impressive goes both ways, how one server is able to do this these days, and how incredibly bad the other two servers are, admittedly won't log on, can't even manage a double team, won't even group up to fight groups, won't take any advice from other players, instead you all come to the forums to complain for anet to make a dozen changes to the game, on an issue that is both created and solved by the players.

Run away until you reach tier 4 and ktrain in the off hours - got it now?

 

Thanks for the confusion ppter's 🤣 btw sos doesn't seem to have trouble ppting and double teaming in t2, hm wonder what their problem really was.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[travathian.3829]

On 11/28/2022 at 12:02 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

If a player can't even take a sentry to get participation, they need to get out of the game mode, seriously, it's not for them.

 

When WvW is dead and you're wondering why, just remember that people who were hungry for WvW content came with ideas and looking for help, and you told them to be happy with floor scraps. The sad thing is, this is your whole persona, page after page, hundreds of comments with this attitude, and you completely lack the ability to grasp other perspectives.

[Xenesis.6389]

On 12/1/2022 at 9:49 PM, travathian.3829 said:

When WvW is dead and you're wondering why, just remember that people who were hungry for WvW content came with ideas and looking for help, and you told them to be happy with floor scraps. The sad thing is, this is your whole persona, page after page, hundreds of comments with this attitude, and you completely lack the ability to grasp other perspectives.

Hello alt account.

Excuse me but in the hundreds of those comments there's also more than enough advice on how to function in wvw, but we all can only give you advice, it's still up to you, the player, to actually do it yourself. I don't lack perspectives, I've been through all those situations, I've been on Mag and I've on the servers opposite Mag. You're not "hungry for content" if you want to quit and give up and don't want to fight them. That's on you, that's your choice, don't come complaining about that in the forums. Go pve if wvw is too hard for you.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink it.

Thanks for the confusion ppter's 🤣 btw sos doesn't seem to have trouble ppting and double teaming in t2, hm wonder what their problem really was.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[BadHealer.3608]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:02 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

If a player can't even take a sentry to get participation, they need to get out of the game mode, seriously, it's not for them.

So you did leave WvW ages ago, when your server had the whole maps and not a single enemy sentry was there?

[Araleg.3152]

Having always been on a 1st or 2nd place world I never really appreciated how much this system sucks if you're losing.

 

This beta restructuring doesn't feel like it's solved anything, more like chucked the food into a blender and put it back on the same plate. Now seeing what it's like to be steamrolled, yikes it's putting me off ever playing again.

 

From steam rolling to being steam rolled:

- Will now take 3~ hours longer to max out pips.

- Now have to actively work to keep participation up, never once fell to tier 5 last week, doing so frequently now.

- Went from ranking up 6+ times an hour, to roughly 1-2 now.

- Barely any loot, we rarely ever finish anyone off, whilst the enemy side wipes us all out.

 

What's worse is it's even harder/stressful to play when you're losing, compared to just brainlessly spamming keys following a blob around.

 

[Luthan.5236]

Actually losing is a bit easier since the enemies tend to move towards your spawn - allowing to get one or another easy kill to reset the timer to 10. On the other hand: If you are on the team winning that hard ... it will be hard to find stuff where you can get credit to keep up the participation timer. You need to walk forever - not having bad luck getting killed by someone that sneaks around somewhere - to get to the enemy spawn ... trying to get credit while the others farm the enemies there. (That might what actually gets people to move out tooo far ... getting pulled. When the defenders can get a kill sometimes. :D)

+  we still have the annoying fact that the empty obsidian sanctum counts down your participation timer. (They probably do not want to make it too easy for solo guilds to get the 500 guild favor from the guild challenge :D)

Edited December 3, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Zombiesbum.3502]

I have to agree that the participation mechanic is a problem. While it is better than it was back in 2012, it could really be improved to include more activities.

For a start, using siege equipment doesn't even give you enough participation. You can sit there keeping pressure on an objective for your team, and you'd very quickly be forced to move off the siege and cap something. This is just not very well designed.

Additionally, the current system doesn't want you to engage in all PvP, but rather either avoid it, or engage only winning PvP scenarios. And guess what the other teams are doing? The same. Of course, you do get the odd player not paying attention, so you do get to gobble them up. But that's not really a solution now, is it? I think merely engaging in PvP should grant participation. 

Another point is that scouting or guarding an area doesn't give players participation. These two are simply trickier to reward. How does a computer differentiate someone keeping watch versus someone who's afk? But I think not even trying to find any solution to this is short sighted. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Zombiesbum.3502

[ArchonWing.9480]

Maybe they could make it so that if:

1.) You're in combat

2.) You're in a contested objective.

Then your participation doesn't decay.

That deals with the crap where you're like defending a camp something in a protracted fight and lose participation. Just because the enemy disengaged doesn't mean we didn't defend the objective..

And yea siege participation is all kinds of messed up.

[Meva.8327]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Maybe they could make it so that if:

1.) You're in combat

2.) You're in a contested objective.

Then your participation doesn't decay.

That deals with the crap where you're like defending a camp something in a protracted fight and lose participation. Just because the enemy disengaged doesn't mean we didn't defend the objective..

And yea siege participation is all kinds of messed up.

Totally agree of participation not decaying if you are engaged in combat OR in a contested objective.

Many times I have given up fighting around a camp or tower because the 1v1 was taking forever, slightly outside the aggro range of NPCs , and I ended up dropping my participation to tier 5 or less.

In addition, sometimes when I win inside of the NPC range and the camp or tower has swords, I need to leave the place I was defending to get participation elsewhere, instead of waiting for the swords to disappear. And no surprise, a few times another baddie comes back and caps what I spent a good time and effort to defend.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Meva.8327

[Meva.8327]

On 12/2/2022 at 4:11 PM, Araleg.3152 said:

Having always been on a 1st or 2nd place world I never really appreciated how much this system sucks if you're losing.

[...]

What's worse is it's even harder/stressful to play when you're losing, compared to just brainlessly spamming keys following a blob around.

I am paired in beta 6 vs Moogooloo i.e. Maguuma. Some players in our alliance, coming from Maguuma server but now facing their old home (that I call "Mag-no-Moog" players) are also sharing your opinion, namely that they were not aware how hard and disheartening it is to be steamrolled.

I would be really interested in reading the opinions of these Mag-no-Moog players after a week of not being on the winning side of WvW in general and EBG in particular.