Why Mesmer is a joke

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 12/3/2022 at 7:30 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

Yes, Virtuoso is the main culprit here. But that's only 1 skill tree of 3 in the build. Chronobunker is also a thing. It seems like general Mesmer skill trees and the newly added distortion are contributing factors.

Chronobunker (if you wanna call it that) is worse than spb and vindi though

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

It is. Staff is not well designed, and clones should not deal any damage. Did you notice? Every time mesmer is uncounterable, staff is involved.

.... This isn't how I expected this to go.

 

Wait.

[bethekey.8314]

8 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

What excuse?

It's...quoted.

8 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Such builds have never been meta

1. There's no real meta anymore. The game mode is fairly dead and there are what, 2 good "teams" across regions?

2. There were different "metas" across levels of play from tournament to ranked silver. Which are you talking about? Balance should not occur only occur at the tournament level, which is irrelevant to the vast majority of players.

3. Stealth + blind spam pistol thief and tanky-duelist spellbreaker immediately come to mind as very successful, tanky builds of similar nature.

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by bethekey.8314

[Terrorhuz.4695]

11 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

.... This isn't how I expected this to go.

 

Wait.

If something was designed by S***r, just assume I hate it.

[apharma.3741]

From something I said back in October:

"From a very experienced player, be VERY careful about buffing core, the devs have not fixed many of the issues that made chrono and mirage brain dead easy to play too strong. Both these classes are a couple of ill thought out buffs away from being the next troll spec."

I said adding distortion to Virtuoso (in another topic) wasn't what was needed and was a bad idea and here we are. What Virtuoso needed was to be able to use shatters without facing the target, keep the cast and the tells and a complete dagger rework. Plus would be nice if the sword leap return was 900 (the 1st leap is about 700) too but that's where I would go. 

Other issues with mesmer are (as with other classes) instant reset type skills, Signet of Illusions is too strong while passive and trait are kinda poo and continuum split is like a bomb just waiting to go off if they suddenly decide to make a set of skills really good on core and is a major reason that mesmer utilities are niche strong instead of generally good like you might find on necro, engineer, revenant etc. Before someone says something about that stop and really think, imagine on any class if you could use your entire skill bar (or strongest 5) twice in a row, now imagine how much weaker you'd need to make those skills to accommodate this.

On the flip side mesmer also has a lot of generally kinda bad skills, weapons and traits that either have always been bad or nerfed below the floor to never be used. They have possibly the worst well skills in the game (looking at all wells available to the class), no glamour trait, "clone" and "phantasm" utility types for inconsistency and generally half the utility skills just not worth taking or with poor synergy. Additionally mesmer should be excellent at boon removal but often can't really do that as effectively as other classes while needing more investment or praying to Lyssa that Arcane thievery hits and doesn't fire blanks.

Anyway enough of a rant, go play something that isn't the low skill bunker on mesmer and you'll see how janky the class is where this build is dumb and alternatives are just poo.

Edited December 5, 2022 by apharma.3741

[Morwath.9817]

I agree Gravity Well is the worst well in the game. Nuff said.

[apharma.3741]

3 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

I agree Gravity Well is the worst well in the game. Nuff said.

Well of Eternity

Well of Action

Well of Calamity

Well of Senility

All bad as the pulse effects are pretty poor and the big final effect either the enemy has left or you're staying in a place that's easier to AoE.

Gravity well and precognition are pretty good but that's kinda it.

Have a look at the competition: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

19 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

It's...quoted.

I'm saying that it isn't actually an excuse but an explanation, an accurate one at that.

19 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

1. There's no real meta anymore. The game mode is fairly dead and there are what, 2 good "teams" across regions?

The good players still scrim and duel and have found spb to be meta, chrono to be below-meta, and virtuoso to be trash.

19 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

2. There were different "metas" across levels of play from tournament to ranked silver. Which are you talking about? Balance should not occur only occur at the tournament level, which is irrelevant to the vast majority of players.

At low levels meta is playing something  that does dmg and moves quickly so you can get more value. Not losing a sidenode by spaming stealth and invuln.

19 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

3. Stealth + blind spam pistol thief and tanky-duelist spellbreaker immediately come to mind as very successful, tanky builds of similar nature.

Spellbreaker doesn't lose nodes. Thief with stealth has never been a meta sidenoder.

 

Note: I'm not against hard nerfing this garbage build, in fact I was never for adding distortion to f5 on virtuoso in the first place, I'm just pointing out that this build is bad.

Edited December 6, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

10 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

From something I said back in October:

"From a very experienced player, be VERY careful about buffing core, the devs have not fixed many of the issues that made chrono and mirage brain dead easy to play too strong. Both these classes are a couple of ill thought out buffs away from being the next troll spec."

I said adding distortion to Virtuoso (in another topic) wasn't what was needed and was a bad idea and here we are. What Virtuoso needed was to be able to use shatters without facing the target, keep the cast and the tells and a complete dagger rework. Plus would be nice if the sword leap return was 900 (the 1st leap is about 700) too but that's where I would go. 

Other issues with mesmer are (as with other classes) instant reset type skills, Signet of Illusions is too strong while passive and trait are kinda poo and continuum split is like a bomb just waiting to go off if they suddenly decide to make a set of skills really good on core and is a major reason that mesmer utilities are niche strong instead of generally good like you might find on necro, engineer, revenant etc. Before someone says something about that stop and really think, imagine on any class if you could use your entire skill bar (or strongest 5) twice in a row, now imagine how much weaker you'd need to make those skills to accommodate this.

On the flip side mesmer also has a lot of generally kinda bad skills, weapons and traits that either have always been bad or nerfed below the floor to never be used. They have possibly the worst well skills in the game (looking at all wells available to the class), no glamour trait, "clone" and "phantasm" utility types for inconsistency and generally half the utility skills just not worth taking or with poor synergy. Additionally mesmer should be excellent at boon removal but often can't really do that as effectively as other classes while needing more investment or praying to Lyssa that Arcane thievery hits and doesn't fire blanks.

Anyway enough of a rant, go play something that isn't the low skill bunker on mesmer and you'll see how janky the class is where this build is dumb and alternatives are just poo.

Didnt read all of it but that immediately seems wrong, the problem (if you can call it that) was not that they buffed core too much.

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I'm saying that it isn't actually an excuse but an explanation, an accurate one at that.

From Dictionary.com.

Excuse (n) - "an explanation offered as a reason for being excused". Why are you like this?

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

The good players

Define this, and how you're an expert on it.

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

At low levels meta is

Define this, and how you're an expert on it.

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Spellbreaker doesn't lose nodes.

Yes, it does. Spellbreaker is run as pure melee. It runs off point to LoS or do any damage against ranged. Greatsword mobility carries it way off point if the entire duration is desired.

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Thief with stealth has never been a meta sidenoder.

"Thief with stealth". Very specific. And it certainly has; maybe not at the highest level. You've already acknowledged there are multiple metas.

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Note: I'm not against hard nerfing this garbage build, in fact I was never for adding distortion to f5 on virtuoso in the first place, I'm just pointing out that this build is bad.

Then why spam...7(?) individual posts here defending it? Oh, and define "garbage build".

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

From Dictionary.com.

Excuse (n) - "an explanation offered as a reason for being excused". Why are you like this?

You said "The no-damage, decap itself excuse has been used for (eventually nerfed) bunkers over and over again. You're downplaying it". You are here making it out as if I am making up an excuse so as to not get this build nerfed by downplaying its strength, but I am actually just educating (explaining to you) why the build is weak and much weaker than you seem to think.

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Define this, and how you're an expert on it.

Lame obstinate non-response.

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Define this, and how you're an expert on it.

Lame obstinate non-response.

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Yes, it does. Spellbreaker is run as pure melee. It runs off point to LoS or do any damage against ranged. Greatsword mobility carries it way off point if the entire duration is desired.

It simply does not, you are objectively incorrect.

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

"Thief with stealth". Very specific.

Thief without stealth has never really been a meta sidenoder either but that's beside relevancy because the entire point was about bunker builds that decap themselves. Blind spamming thief bunkers that don't rely on stealth do not decap themselves. Obviously.

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

And it certainly has; maybe not at the highest level. You've already acknowledged there are multiple metas.

When people say "spellbreaker is meta" or "chronomancer is meta" or "genji is meta" it is commonly understood by every single person reading this apart from you that this means they are part of the metagame at the highest levels of competitive play. The funny thing is that you yourself acknowledged this when you wrote "There's no real meta anymore. The game mode is fairly dead and there are what, 2 good "teams" across regions?".

Also no, a sidenoder thief build that does low damage and decaps itself has never been great at any level. 

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Then why spam...7 (?) individual posts here

There was no spam. I get irritated by stupid people sometimes, so I get baited into responding.

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

defending it?

I have made more relevant nerf suggestions in the past against bunker Mesmer builds than you by far and it isn't even close. Those who know me, know that I essentially only ever play the squishiest power Mesmer builds. What I'm doing in this thread is arguing against stupid statements such as "Tell me again why Mesmer requires skill".

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Oh, and define "garbage build".

Low efficacy compared to other available builds.

Edited December 6, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Just intervening to say that agrippa is generally right on the money when it comes to mesmer; here in particular he's just spitting straight facts.

Also, believing spellbreaker loses on point means being beyond delusional.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Just intervening to say that agrippa is generally right on the money when it comes to mesmer; here in particular he's just spitting straight facts. 

Also, believing spellbreaker loses on point means being beyond delusional.

Yeah, like what is this even supposed to mean: " Spellbreaker is run as pure melee. It runs off point to LoS or do any damage against ranged." 

Seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game works. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Pimsley.3681]

mmm I'd say Mesmer is a joke because personally, power chrono builds have the highest skill floor in the game. The timing needed to master it is rather impossible for me. Distortion and the shield can help it be somewhat viable but the margin for error with the combo is very tiny. I can never be a Mesmer main. The condi variation is a little more friendlier but power is way up there in terms of mastering. 

[Waffles.5632]

LMFAO making a thread about Mes while playing Mecha. That in itself is peak irony. Look no further than comparing the blink of Mes vs the blink of Mecha to understand how vastly more OP mecha is than any other class because of the insane amount of low effort one can put in while still reaping 90% of the rewards. The mecha does 80% of your job for you, and you're complaining about Mesmer which has to actually press buttons or die. Whatever your point was, you lost it before you even posted here.

 

I only want to add, that in PvP, anything condi mes needs to simply die, while anything Power Mes has been needing buffs since forever. Furthermore, Power Mes builds have ALWAYS suffered because Condi Mes builds were oppressive. Look no further than the state of Power Mirage because of Condi Mirage.

Once again, condi mes in pvp = Bad, get rid of it. It's unfun design, boring to play as, frustrating to play against. Staff is just dumb on Mesmer. The most interactive skill is staff 5, followed by staff 2. Staff 3 is okay, not good or bad. It does it's job, that's all we can ask for. Staff 4 is literally a joke of a button, and staff auto + clone auto is the most boring way I can think of to do damage outside of playing Mecha.

Power Mes in PvP = good because it relies on a lot of knowledge and skill. You have to know your class + every other class, not 1:1, but at least enough of a basic/general sense to know when their big stuff is up and their basic counters etc. Power Mes punishes passive play while greatly rewarding active play. If you lose against anything Power Mes, it is because you got outplayed and that's simply it.

Condi Mes rewards passive defensive play and then double dips with confusion as well since chasing/bursting/catching the mes means you're hurting yourself more, hence the frustration. You're boned if you do, you're boned if you don't. Any class that operates like that will immediately be hated by 99% of pvp player base, in any game.

 

Also like @Terrorhuz.4695 said, @agrippastrilemma.8741 is spitting straight knowledge and facts here. Power Mes requires some of the highest skill in the game to be effective with. Again, the Mechanist, of all things, complaining about the Mesmer in regards to skill. 😭😭😆

 

 

 

 

 

[bethekey.8314]

@agrippastrilemma.8741

Try to be civil. I ask for definitions only because it's impossible to discuss anything when you can't operate on the same terms. We can't go by normal definitions, apparently, as seen by your issues with "excuse".

7 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Just intervening to say that agrippa is generally right on the money when it comes to mesmer; here in particular he's just spitting straight facts.

Also, believing spellbreaker loses on point means being beyond delusional.

If only he could "straight spit" definitions.

If neither of you can understand how a pure melee warrior can be kited or forced off point, and subsequently decapped, I wouldn't go around calling others delusional.

[Waffles.5632]

3 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

@agrippastrilemma.8741

Try to be civil. I ask for definitions only because it's impossible to discuss anything when you can't operate on the same terms. We can't go by normal definitions, apparently, as seen by your issues with "excuse".

If only he could "straight spit" definitions.

If neither of you can understand how a pure melee warrior can be kited or forced off point, and subsequently decapped, I wouldn't go around calling others delusional.

 

If the warrior is being kited, he's not on point to begin with...

Secondly, getting a warrior off point is one of the hardest things to do. It's much easier and more effective to let them have the point while trying to +1 another node.

I mean sure you could spend 1min+ trying to get warrior off point, but any warrior worth their salt is not just going to simply let you walk into Mordor.

You say things like they are easy, but that's on paper. In practice it is a much different story than "kiting a warrior" or "forcing them off point"

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

IMO all classes at this point have some sort of BS that is a bit toxic for the game.
In case of Mesmer if you take few steps back and look from away you'll notice how BS was being transfered from Core to Chronomancer then to Mirage and finally Virtuoso. Nothing more than powercreep being passed from one hands to another.

[Morwath.9817]

19 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Well of Eternity

Well of Action

Well of Calamity

Well of Senility

All bad as the pulse effects are pretty poor and the big final effect either the enemy has left or you're staying in a place that's easier to AoE.

Gravity well and precognition are pretty good but that's kinda it.

Have a look at the competition: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well

 

Which class using wells is meta, can you remind me?

[bethekey.8314]

@Waffles.5632It's hard to take anything you say seriously after your previous post, which essentially amounts to "You play X class, X class dumb". Be better.

26 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

If the warrior is being kited, he's not on point to begin with...

"...kited or forced off point..." Look, I'm not here to teach you and @agrippastrilemma.8741 English, but this means the Warrior originated from the point, and leaves it.

26 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

but any warrior worth their salt

You both do this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman.

16 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Spellbreaker doesn't lose nodes.

The original, blanket generalization that, 100%, isn't true.

26 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I mean sure you could spend 1min+ trying to get warrior off point, but any warrior worth their salt is not just going to simply let you walk into Mordor.

You say things like they are easy, but that's on paper. In practice it is a much different story than "kiting a warrior" or "forcing them off point"

If you need help beating Warriors, I can offer this template. Not playing Mechanist of course, because that rustles your jimmies so. Not a Spellbreaker, but similar build, similar strategy against it.

Edited December 6, 2022 by bethekey.8314

[Waffles.5632]

@bethekey.8314

LOL Oh man, you're precious.

It is pointless to respond to you anymore, so here watch these videos instead. I think you are simply new to pvp and I don't wanna turn away any new players, no matter how misinformed their opinions are.

 

 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

IMO all classes at this point have some sort of BS that is a bit toxic for the game.

Yes...It's almost reached perfection. Let everyone have a measure of annoying and you will find balance. 

1 hour ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Secondly, getting a warrior off point is one of the hardest things to do. It's much easier and more effective to let them have the point while trying to +1 another node.

Nah. You look at me wrong on a condi mes build if I'm playing ANYTHING that doesn't utilize longbow, and I'll leave the point for you. That's not always the case, and hasn't even reliably been the case until recently. Spellbreaker matchups (namely the condi spellbreaker variant, now; see below) are the first instance of that power dynamic being reversed in a way that wasn't by way of Bladesworn being a weird healbot build when it shipped (and, perhaps, spellbreaker when full counter did enough damage to kill clones).  I don't understand the insistence otherwise, so explain. 

2 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

LMFAO making a thread about Mes while playing Mecha. That in itself is peak irony.

 

Mes can bot harder if it wants to, and I'm pretty sure @bethekey.8314 plays mech for s**ts and giggles while being notably skilled with the other variants including core. This isn't the angle you wanna argue. 

 

Quote

" Spellbreaker is run as pure melee. It runs off point to LoS or do any damage against ranged." 

 

Not anymore.

There's a point defense condi build that utilizes longbow, and the fire fields deal with clones. There is now in existence a counter to mes on warrior that can contest points without leaving the point to los for large periods of time.

Probably. possibly. Time will tell. It's like...less than a month old.

This specific instance: namely, the war vs mes matchup when the war is condi spellbreaker, makes this argument plausible.

That being said, It's really strange that we're pretending like most mes specs didn't hard counter war for like 10 years straight (and still continues to do so for the power variants that -do- choose to run melee.) If you're talking about specifically the condi spellbreaker variant, clarify that, or explain if you think melee warrior standing on the point is some insurmountable challenge. 

 

Not trying to say anyone is more right here, just:

*  theoretically I can see issues with mes interactions with condi spellbreaker. That's the ONLY instance I'll cede. Everything else is, as you mentioned, running after something and flailing to occasionally hit it. 

* What are y'all doing we -know- how the war/mes interaction goes generally. The above inversion is new. We were all here for HoT and PoF. 

Quote

Thief with stealth has never been a meta sidenoder.

Can confirm that.

(There was that vault instance once, and the sword pistol one, but those got axed real quick 😭 )

Mostly it's been varying flavors of them being annoying for 5-7 seconds then leaving, then getting nerfed for being annoying for 5-7 seconds and leaving. Even the pistol pistol pewpewy one. 

Quote

Video MAXIMUM

Dude nobody's gonna watch all of those, especially if you're not willing to defend your take. I bet not a single one of them features condi mes variants though. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Bear.9568]

A mechanist calling out a mesmer. The irony of watching an actual mechanical class vs. the casual auto attacker.

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Waffles.5632 said:

LOL Oh man, you're precious.

It is pointless to respond to you anymore, so here watch these videos instead. I think you are simply new to pvp and I don't wanna turn away any new players, no matter how misinformed their opinions are.

Later bud.

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Can confirm that.

(There was that vault instance once, and the sword pistol one, but those got axed real quick 😭 )

Mostly it's been varying flavors of them being annoying for 5-7 seconds then leaving, then getting nerfed for being annoying for 5-7 seconds and leaving. Even the pistol pistol pewpewy one.

Sorry, but I've watched Valhor's stealth + blind spam build farm many people, 1v1/2, on side nodes. Easy to play and great results against the majority of the population.