[All Game Modes] - Tools Updated

[SleepyBat.9034]

I've found most of the changes satisfactory with a few bugs that need to be worked out, like how the cooldown reduction from Mechanized Deployment doesn't function properly with Mechanist outside PvE. I also think that Lock On should have a longer Fury duration in PvP and WvW considering how long the ICD is and the duration of other classes traits that give Fury on disable.
Additionally, I think on heal effects like Cleansing Pulse, Reconstruction Enclosure, and Lesser Utility Goggles should activate after A.E.D. heals, and not when it's first activated. This change would improve the synergy between Gadgets and Inventions by changing how traits interact with A.E.D. Anet made this work for Warrior when they reworked the Defense trait line so it wouldn't interfere with the Defensive Stance heal skill but they didn't think to do the same for Engineer's Tools trait line.

Edited December 15, 2022 by SleepyBat.9034

[Rezzet.3614]

i think the problem lies in the fact theres too many kitten tools+ gadgets+toolbelt

[SleepyBat.9034]

5 minutes ago, Rezzet.3614 said:

i think the problem lies in the fact theres too many kitten tools+ gadgets+toolbelt

I don't follow your line of thought, care to elaborate?

[MrForz.1953]

In PvP/WvW I have a hard time not considering the Tools traitline in any of my builds which is an excellent thing in itself. In PvE... well, outside Core I'm afraid Firearms and Explosives will remain supreme for a long time.

[Caiden.9074]

I think they are underperforming by a small bit. In a vacuum, they are fine. However, compared to other trait lines, there is rarely a choice to take it. Alchemy, Firearms, Explosives... those three are solid lines and, when combined with an elite specialization, only two can be chosen.

I run core because I don't like any of the elite specs, so I run Tools to some success, but I *know* Alchemy is better.

 

Side note, I would love it if the goofy, cartoony, acme, spring-loaded ram head skill was change to something else. It's just so dumb. I'll never use it for thematic reasons alone.

[Dadnir.5038]

Disclaimer: That's my personal opinion.

Tools traitline...

• Minors: Optimized activation is weak, mechanized deployement and excessive energy are fine.
• Static discharge: Used to be good, especially in competitive modes. Not really good enough for PvE.
• Reactive lens: The trait is "ok".
• Power wrench/tools kit: While the trait's effect on toolkit is awesome, it does not make this kit feel better to use. The AA pointlessly heal turrets and, in general, is way to slow (especially the last attack). Box of nails isn't worth using in PvE because the conditions are way too short (it's fine in competitive thought).
• Streamlined kit: 20s shared CD... This trait seriously need to be changed.
• Lock on: Not my cup of tea.
• Takedown round: The trait is a bit boring.
• Gadgeteer: I guess the trait is "ok". Some of the additional effects aren't very attractive, thought. I'll be honest and say that I'd prefer additional effects on the toolbelt skills associated to the gadgets than on the gadget themselve.
• Adrenal implant: Is it really worth a grandmaster slot?
• Kinetic battery: Not really fond of the design but I guess it's ok.

All in all, what the traitline lack the most is a group worthy dps grandmaster trait. Gadgeteer isn't going to sensibly improve dps and the other 2 GM traits couldn't be more selfish than they already are.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Stalima.5490]

I'm still trying to work out what we are supposed to use the battering ram on, maybe after holo or mechanist leaps? andhow would this help exactly?

[SleepyBat.9034]

4 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

I'm still trying to work out what we are supposed to use the battering ram on, maybe after holo or mechanist leaps? andhow would this help exactly?

It's like that warrior skill "Kick" Just a PvE break bar skill I guess.

[Rezzet.3614]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:02 AM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I don't follow your line of thought, care to elaborate?

Disregard, need to re analize  , my problem lied on the fact  im a WvWer  so stuff has insane cooldowns  and is weaker than usual  , for example throw Mine  having a 30s cd

[Ten.2617]

Tools trait line:

* Mechanized Deployment: Still bugged in PvP, not working with Mech Commands. Must be fixed!

* Lock On: Would have to grant at least 5 seconds of fury in all scenarios.

 

Gadgets:

* A.E.D.:

1- The conterplay to this skill is do not kill the engineer while it's active, so the cast time would have to be reduced to 0.25 seconds (like Warrior's Defiant Stance) because the player must cast it when the HP is very low.

* Throw Mine:

1- Cooldown is too high in PvP and WvW; it would have to be reduced or an extra ammo would have to be added.

2- This skill would have to infict heavi bleed, because things are mutilated after accidentally trigger a mine.

* Rocket Boots:

1- Update the skill to instead of only makes the engineer fly away in a fixed direction and in a fixed distance; it additionally allows the player to controls the direction and the distance traveled.

2- Additionally update the skill to allows the engineer to use skills while travels.

Obs: The purpose is to make this skill viable in scenarios with few available space to travel, and additionally grant it some extra utility.

* Personal Battering Ram:

1- Must go! Its relative toolbelt skill has its value in some scenario, but always there are slot for improvements.

2- Replace this skill for this skill. I don't know its name but looks better than the goonie skill.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ze Ninguem.6708

[SleepyBat.9034]

17 hours ago, Ze Ninguem.6708 said:

1- Cooldown is too high in PvP and WvW; it would have to be reduced or an extra ammo would have to be added.

When traited it has a 24 second cooldown and drops an extra mine under you, I don't think it's that bad currently. Also it recharges while the mines are placed I think.

[Rezzet.3614]

On 12/5/2022 at 12:40 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

When traited it has a 24 second cooldown and drops an extra mine under you, I don't think it's that bad currently. Also it recharges while the mines are placed I think.

that there is a problem actually, untraited its a useless  joke , 30s cd for 1s Stun and 1 boon strip , maybe if it still stripped 3 boons like it did in the past ,

 

Net turret replaces the thing traited or untraited  pretty much except for some super specialized non scrapper melee tank build i guess

 

maybe if we gave it 1200 range and 2 charges with trait  so we can use mines as  wells in wvw  it could see some proper use

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, Rezzet.3614 said:

that there is a problem actually, untraited its a useless  joke , 30s cd for 1s Stun and 1 boon strip , maybe if it still stripped 3 boons like it did in the past ,

 

Net turret replaces the thing traited or untraited  pretty much except for some super specialized non scrapper melee tank build i guess

 

maybe if we gave it 1200 range and 2 charges with trait  so we can use mines as  wells in wvw  it could see some proper use

Really like the idea to make gadgeteer give 2 charges to throw mine instead of having the mine placed on your position. Gives way more flexibility in it's usage and still gives you 2 mines to work with.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Tool is definitely better than before but I think more than the tool branch, tools skill should be updated and rebalanced.

 

For PvE Throw mine is pretty much the only good skill used. And even Anet for whatever reason thought removing boon stripping on mine field is fine...Ramming has no range for whatever reason, rocket boot is only for mobility which PvE doesnt exactly care because mount, slick shoes is underwhelming, only the toolbelt skill is decent because its a fast breakstun and gives superspeed. Google is underwhelming.

 

As for PvP and WvW, Rocket boot is good, slickshoes and only for its toolbelt skill. The rest is way too underwhelming to use.

 

But I am not going to say anything else because the new dev team is more incompetent and have no clue about how they balance the game that they might look at tools and think removing the boon strip from mine for more cripple is going to be a buff.

[Luthan.5236]

Haven't noticed any changes since I barely use that trait line. Especially with the elite specs already taking one slot ... and then only 2 other trait lines possible (where explosives and firearms are more interesting for the damage usually): I mainly prefer this if I want to use the tool kit (for magnet or the defensive skill with the shield) and taking the trait that improves it from the tools trait line. Also the endurance regeneration thing - for certain situations. (Achievements where I'd like to have more endurance maybe.)

Comparing it to the alchemy and inventions: Alchemy I also use only when using a lot of elixirs. (With the elite specs ... not really - trying to use more of the slite spec exclusive skills there.) Inventions seems more fun than tools though. I prefer the movement speed trait (for mechanist with the signet not really needed though) over the endurance regen from the tools trait line. +shield skill buff that can combine well with certain stuff though. (Now less important since they changed that as well. Adding protection though. But the reduced cooldown afaik is in the normal skill included now I think.)

Does that static charge + tool belt skill recharge reduce thing even work for the mech skills? (Usually you'd expect them to count every f1-f4 ... even if replaced by something else from an elite spec. But I guess it does not.) For this ... it could be interesting.

Gadgets: ... no ... just no. I liked to use them on core engineer - for the CC and playing around ... nice for certain achievements. But with the elite specs they are not really needed or hard to include without omitting other more important stuff. And just for 1 gadget and taking gadgeteer the trait line is not worth taking. For scrapper that has access to quickness from it's own trait like (if i remember correctly) the last grandmaster trait with the kinetic charges ... might work well though. Maybe. Never really tried this a lot. (Neither scrapper nor the tools trait line. Only when I played core engineer in PvP - to use the toolkit for additional defense with main weapon rifle ... to get cooldown reduction.)

Edited December 9, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[shion.2084]

8 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Haven't noticed any changes since I barely use that trait line. Especially with the elite specs already taking one slot ... and then only 2 other trait lines possible (where explosives and firearms are more interesting for the damage usually): I mainly prefer this if I want to use the tool kit (for magnet or the defensive skill with the shield) and taking the trait that improves it from the tools trait line. Also the endurance regeneration thing - for certain situations. (Achievements where I'd like to have more endurance maybe.)

Comparing it to the alchemy and inventions: Alchemy I also use only when using a lot of elixirs. (With the elite specs ... not really - trying to use more of the slite spec exclusive skills there.) Inventions seems more fun than tools though. I prefer the movement speed trait (for mechanist with the signet not really needed though) over the endurance regen from the tools trait line. +shield skill buff that can combine well with certain stuff though. (Now less important since they changed that as well. Adding protection though. But the reduced cooldown afaik is in the normal skill included now I think.)

Does that static charge + tool belt skill recharge reduce thing even work for the mech skills? (Usually you'd expect them to count every f1-f4 ... even if replaced by something else from an elite spec. But I guess it does not.) For this ... it could be interesting.

Gadgets: ... no ... just no. I liked to use them on core engineer - for the CC and playing around ... nice for certain achievements. But with the elite specs they are not really needed or hard to include without omitting other more important stuff. And just for 1 gadget and taking gadgeteer the trait line is not worth taking. For scrapper that has access to quickness from it's own trait like (if i remember correctly) the last grandmaster trait with the kinetic charges ... might work well though. Maybe. Never really tried this a lot. (Neither scrapper nor the tools trait line. Only when I played core engineer in PvP - to use the toolkit for additional defense with main weapon rifle ... to get cooldown reduction.)

If ind the GM with kinetic charges pretty awful.   I either have to blow a toolbelt to get the little bit of quickness when I actually need it .... or I have to use it at some random time I can't really leverage it.   Kind of a horrible pairing of unrelated functionalities.   Also just a pain to monitor and do book keeping on.

[JohnnyRico.8591]

The tools traitline got a bit better, but still needs some work. 

1. Mechanized Deployment: still needs to work for Mechanist skills outside PvE. Condi clear addition was great
2. Static Discharge: needs some type of dmg buff, it used to be somewhat relevant outside holo
3. Streamlined Kits: how this doesn't have separate cds for separate kits after all this time is beyond me. If you are one of the unicorns out there playing 3+ kit builds, it'll normally be a toss-up on what buff you'll get in a fight. This is basically a perma swiftness trait, with a minor random buff every 20 seconds.
4. Kinetic Battery: Kind of similar to Streamlined Kits...this will trigger at random times, unless you plan around using that 5th toolbelt skill at just the right moment. Even then, the boons it provides doesn't merit holding off using your toolbelt skills.
5. Takedown Round: Makes no sense if the trait line is build around vigor/endurance recovery. Should just switch it to 10% dmg increase while at full endurance, or even better, change it to something less boring than a flat dmg increase. 
6. Gadgets: Lets be honest, Rocket Boots are the only reason 99% of people run this trait, for the lower cd and extra range. Utility Goggles is halfway decent, but the old Analyze toolbelt skill was what made it great for SD builds (when SD did real dmg). Battering ram's range is pretty pathetic, only to be outdone by the one stack of burning when traited. Double or triple the range when traited, and it might be usable. Same with the toolbelt skill for AED.  
7. Lock On: internal cd on it seems awfully high, but I get it, the trait gives 6 secs of revealed. Don't know how that could be changed, maybe just more fury uptime.

On 12/9/2022 at 2:44 AM, Luthan.5236 said:

Does that static charge + tool belt skill recharge reduce thing even work for the mech skills? (Usually you'd expect them to count every f1-f4 ... even if replaced by something else from an elite spec. But I guess it does not.) For this ... it could be interesting.

Static discharge does work, and it comes out of the mech, not you. The recharge works only in PvE, don't know if that is a bug or by design. 

 

 

 

[Luthan.5236]

Thanks for pointing this out and testing this - JohnnyRico. Yeah ... you also mentioned some stuff about the gadgets: The toolbelt skills. I liked (and probably still like) some of them also for their toolbeld skill. (I mean you could get a ton of CC if even including those - battering ram. The mines ... and the bomb kit with the big ol bomb. At least for core engineer for certain achievements - this was fun. I played season 2 on core - when starting to catch up on all the stuff when I returned in 2019 after stopping to play end 2013.)

Mechanist though ... annoying that we can not have the toolbelt skills. (Not even the f1-f3 when the mech is away.)

Edited December 12, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[JohnnyRico.8591]

8 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Thanks for pointing this out and testing this - JohnnyRico. Yeah ... you also mentioned some stuff about the gadgets: The toolbelt skills. I liked (and probably still like) some of them also for their toolbeld skill. (I mean you could get a ton of CC if even including those - battering ram. The mines ... and the bomb kit with the big ol bomb. At least for core engineer for certain achievements - this was fun. I played season 2 on core - when starting to catch up on all the stuff when I returned in 2019 after stopping to play end 2013.)

Mechanist though ... annoying that we can not have the toolbelt skills. (Not even the f1-f3 when the mech is away.)

 

Not a problem, and agreed. Tool belt skills are supposed to be what makes engineer different, and one of the reasons I don't play a whole lot of mechanist.

 

The battering ram toolbelt isn't all that bad, I used to run it in my core rifle SD build a long time ago. The actual ram is extremely hit and miss though. 130 range is basically standing on top of the other person

[JohnnyRico.8591]

On 12/3/2022 at 1:26 PM, Stalima.5490 said:

I'm still trying to work out what we are supposed to use the battering ram on, maybe after holo or mechanist leaps? andhow would this help exactly?

Best time to use it is on a target that is already cc'ed, to chain. Rifle 4/Tool Kit pull, etc. At least in my experience

[Luthan.5236]

The ram underwater ... is the most annoying thing. If you already thing on land it is "hit and miss". 😄 Before mechanist I used to play a lot of core engineer in PvP/WvW. Did not like the Holo/Scrapper enough for these kind if game modes. And in the end I think I ended up with rifle, elixirs (the invulnerability one ... quickness one for stunkbreak I think) - and the toolkit for a shield/defense (+ the magnet).

But I had one point (until I noticed it is not that good) where I tried to use ram there as well ... it is possible to learn to aim and have the correct range I think. Underwater though ... with the 3-dimensonal movement - super annoying. There you really need to be on top. Then again: The whole underwater combat sucks. 😄  (Grenades and aiming them underwater ... always had been considered strong - for the engineer though. At least from what I can remember from core days back then when I also used to be unter water a bit more.)

Edited December 12, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Matoro.9708]

On 12/3/2022 at 6:51 AM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Personally I've found most of the changes satisfactory with a few bugs that need to be worked out like how the cooldown reduction from Mechanized Deployment doesn't function properly with Mechanist outside PvE.

I also think that Lock On should have longer Fury duration in PvP and WvW considering how long the icd is and the duration of other classes traits that give Fury on disable.

Additionally I think on heal effects like Cleansing Pulse, Reconstruction Enclosure, and Lesser Utility Goggles should activate after A.E.D. heals and not when it's first activated. This change would improve the synergy between Gadgets and Inventions by changing how traits interact with A.E.D. Anet made this work for Warrior when they reworked the Defense trait line so it wouldn't interfere with the Defensive Stance heal skill but they didn't think to do the same for Engineer's Tools trait line.

Agree. Untamed's trait to give barrier on heal gives it after the skill is over.