Fervent Force isn't the problem

[Zaret.1450]

In wvw the trait resets skills by 2 seconds instead of the 4 in pve, maybe making pve reset be 2 secs too would be enought of a nerf,  it should be able to lower dmg by a decent amount and still make it a viable option

[anduriell.6280]

I agree with @zaswer.5246 maybe just bringing PvE values to WvW/PvP ones is enough. I do not feel the trait any OP in that game mode mostly because the ranger has one CC in their weapon kit and need to swap to get the other (hammer is the exception) . 

Path of scars only has one CC, Mell is wrong as usually is. Which i don't understand is why 3 years later we are still with 0 damage in the initial impact. 

Also limiting the quickness and alacrity the elite has access to would benefit to lower the damage output.  

But we will see, i have zero trust yet in anet devs. 

 

[The Boz.2038]

Is not enough; any amount of regular ~costless cooldown reduction means the skills it affects need to be balanced around it, and not the baseline, which means baseline will suck hard.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

FF has the same problem that Tactical Reload had. Any sort of skill recharge is unhealthy unless it is tied to a single long CD source or recharges a very limited number of skills. This was the case for Tactical Reload and is the current case for Fervent Force, there is too much getting recharged.

Two solutions from my point of view:

1. Reduce the recharge to 2s from 4s in PvE
   1. This maintains the functionality, but at reduced effectiveness
2. Rework it to do something else, like gain access to your equipped ambush skill when connecting with a CC and put a 10s CD on the trait.
   1. This keeps its functionality within Untamed itself and gives room for buffing core without the Espec exacerbating the potential buffs. Also, gives the ability to wombo combo back-to-back Ambush skills. This, or something like it would be the better solution in the long run.

 

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

It offers the same to both power and condi builds, its skill reset, also even if axe 4 didnt reset itself you could use hammer, that has both h3 and h5.

Hammer is not nearly as powerful 

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I agree with @zaswer.5246 

Path of scars only has one CC, Mell is wrong as usually is. Which i don't understand is why 3 years later we are still with 0 damage in the initial impact. 

Path of Scars needs another CC to help reset it but the explanation was long enough without this being added. 

5 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

In wvw the trait resets skills by 2 seconds instead of the 4 in pve, maybe making pve reset be 2 secs too would be enought of a nerf,  it should be able to lower dmg by a decent amount and still make it a viable option

I prefer the idea that stun can't reset themselves since that would prevent the most egregious examples like Path of Scars. To some extent this would be the same 50% reduction nerf. 

Otherwise they will probably buff alot of the Untamed kit before they make any changes.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Would be great if they'd make it so PoS (an apt. abbreviation too) actually hits something non-stationary.  

Also, there is no stun on PoS--it is literally a pull.  Might just want to write 'CC' in the opening post so as not to be confusing.  

Finally, let's not mess with Honed Axes to band-aid a problem with FF--devs already have way too much history nerfing core traits to serve elites instead of just fixing the actual issue.  

[Kodama.6453]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Hammer is not nearly as powerful 

Power untamed currently pulls 40k dps while camping hammer permanently.

Hammer itself is not that strong, correct. But it comes with handy CC skill to fuel fervent force, which is the actual problem.

[ApaWanka.2698]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Power untamed currently pulls 40k dps while camping hammer permanently.

Hammer itself is not that strong, correct. But it comes with handy CC skill to fuel fervent force, which is the actual problem.

…. which is the actual problem on PvE….. (Let me complete the sentence) 

 

…. On other game modes Hammer and FF are not meta or oppressive at all (actually help for build diversity), so shave the number for PvE split reducing the 4s to 2s or 1s for that game mode should be enough. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by ApaWanka.2698

[anduriell.6280]

10 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Power untamed currently pulls 40k dps while camping hammer permanently.

Hammer itself is not that strong, correct. But it comes with handy CC skill to fuel fervent force, which is the actual problem.

As another pointed out already: FF has balance problems in PvE. In other game modes because the effect is halved it feels like a very nice and balanced trait which helps with build variety. 4 seconds by CC is simply too much. 

That's why you may find me asking also for the trait to be able to share the CD reduction (maybe halved in half for the friendlies) in a very short radius as means to increase the value of the unWanted in WvW or team fights. It would be nice if it could also reduce Pets Fs when they apply a CC too. 

UnDeveloped needs something unique to offer to the team we already have a glass 1v1 dueler with the Soulbeast much better and flexible (until anet devs in their blind hate nerf the elite that is). 

[Kodama.6453]

@ApaWanka.2698& @anduriell.6280

Even if FF is not a balance problem in competitive modes because of the reduced cooldown reduction, it is still simply not a good design. It directly goes against the stated design goals Anet has proposed, most notably against the concept of purity of purpose.

Purity of purpose means that everything in the game (skills, traits, etc.) should have defined roles. They should excel at some stuff, but also be unable to help in other aspects.

For example, the roles of Ferocious Symbiosis as a trait are damage and (in fight) mobility. But this trait does not increase your sustain, or your CC, or your boon uptime, etc. It has a clearly defined niche, if you want to get more damage and/or mobility, then you take this trait.

Fervent Force has no defined niche. Since this trait reduces the cooldown of all your equipped skills, it will always increase all aspects of your build. It will increase your damage, give you access to more CC, give you higher boon uptime, give you more sustain, give you more mobility...

By design, FF is the absolute anti-thesis of purity of purpose. It is a trait which improves everything you do, there is nothing this trait can't provide.

[anduriell.6280]

2 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Even if FF is not a balance problem in competitive modes because of the reduced cooldown reduction, it is still simply not a good design. It directly goes against the stated design goals Anet has proposed, most notably against the concept of purity of purpose.
......
By design, FF is the absolute anti-thesis of purity of purpose. It is a trait which improves everything you do, there is nothing this trait can't provide.

I find funny this statements coming from a mechanist main where the marionette does absolutely everything with little investment. 

Look this statements and mission goals from Anet are just mere fluff, i can pick multiple classes, mechanist included, wich do not abide by this. So let's stop with the whataboutism and excuses to keep hating on the ranger class. 

It will a be a very sad moment in this game when Anet devs admit defeat and remove the unique effects of this trait few months after the release of the class. At that point they should just scrap the UnDeveloped and start from scratch. 

[Kodama.6453]

27 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I find funny this statements coming from a mechanist main where the marionette does absolutely everything with little investment. 

That you call me a mechanist main when I was one of the people constantly complaining about the absolute design fiasco which has been mechanist is laughable. But I guess everyone who plays engineer is automatically a mechanist main for you.

Nice case of ergo decedo going on here. "He is an engineer main, so their arguments can get ignored"

27 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Look this statements and mission goals from Anet are just mere fluff, i can pick multiple classes, mechanist included, wich do not abide by this. So let's stop with the whataboutism and excuses to keep hating on the ranger class. 

So basically you say we can just throw all balance principles out of the window and just let them design whatever as long as it is fun for the user?

Design principles are important. Even if there are multiple classes not abiding them currently, it should get encouraged that they should and that changes are needed.

Something similar is going on currently with Firebrand. The spec got to ignore these balance principles for years now, but finally Anet is making an effort to change that and gave Firebrand a rework which makes them actually chose what they want to provide instead of having it all always.

These are steps in the right direction and should get encouraged.

Also: You calling it whataboutism.... are you serious? That is what YOU have done here. I called out the reasons why I consider Fervent Force to be bad design (and pointed out that it also goes against what Anet has stated they consider to be good design) and what was your reaction? Literally "but what about mechanist?!"

27 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

It will a be a very sad moment in this game when Anet devs admit defeat and remove the unique effects of this trait few months after the release of the class. At that point they should just scrap the UnDeveloped and start from scratch. 

Unique effects are not always good for the game. Keeping effects just for the sake of them being unique is not desirable in my opinion.

Untamed has it's problems, but Anet already said that before doing something with Fervent Force they will ensure to improve Untamed so the class will still be satisfying even if it is gone.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[anduriell.6280]

7 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

So basically you say we can just throw all balance principles out of the window and just let them design whatever as long as it is fun for the user?

You keep assuming there are balance principles, i am telling you which you are confirming by your previous comment: Anet do not abide by whatever is the declaration of the month. There are plenty of examples in the game ironically starting for the trait of the same name available in your main class.
What's that? Any cleanse you do now convert the conditions? Isn't that a extremely broad and benefit any build by providing additional alacrity and quickness easily? Isn't there a trait which makes any tool belt skill to cleanse conditions? 

Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point. 

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

You keep assuming there are balance principles, i am telling you which you are confirming by your previous comment: Anet do not abide by whatever is the declaration of the month. There are plenty of examples in the game ironically starting for the trait of the same name available in your main class.

And I again want to point out that it is kinda ridiculous that you said calling out fervent force as a bad design is "whataboutism against the ranger", when you repeatedly are the one doing the whataboutism here.

You get presented reasons why fervent force shouldn't get considered to be good design, but all you can say against that is "yeah, but other classes have bad design, too, whataboutthese?"

6 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

What's that? Any cleanse you do now convert the conditions? Isn't that a extremely broad and benefit any build by providing additional alacrity and quickness easily?

The trait purity of purpose has the defined niche of providing boons.

And yes, in other discussions I also pointed out that alacrity is bad design and goes against the idea of purity of purpose. There is a reason why it is the most powerful boon in the game and is considered absolutely mandatory for basically every end game content. Because it also increases all aspects of your builds by decreasing the cooldowns (to a lesser extent than FF, but still).

I personally would love to see alacrity changed for that reason as well.

8 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Isn't there a trait which makes any tool belt skill to cleanse conditions? 

That bit from you is pointless. It's synergy, but synergy is not by itself a bad thing. I also don't call out Restorative Strikes as bad design, since it heals for your power damage dealt and you can increase of the healing by increasing your damage through other traits.

The trait Restorative Strikes has a defined niche, which is sustain. That you can increase that sustain by increasing your damage with other traits is not bad design, it is synergy.

11 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Anything else you say is irrelevant to my point. 

So basically the only way you want to refute any arguments is still keeping on with "but what about x", then accusing others to do it. Funny.

[ApaWanka.2698]

That “ Purity of purpose” reason would be a thing if actually were a thing….

 

(more than a GM on Alchemy trait line 😜) 

 

yes Play sll 3 medium armour clases … (been engineer my main actually) 

 another trait that do offensive a defensive stuff at the same time and don’t even force you to do anything more that condi cleanses that you do anyway…. So it reward you for just playing normally without have to compromise anything more than don’t use the other 2 GMs. Ants it’s ok, as you said it fill a gap and help build diversity! 

On the other hand FF promote a different play style and it can only be worthy in front of the other GMs on builds with lots of CCs so it force you a certain builds snd weapons, choices and build diversity. (Again) so I’m happy with it. 

FF is not the only or even the first skill/trait that do similar stuff, See Improvisation (thief), F5 con Chono or actually any build that can provide Alacrity sometimes even AOE (May be more but these are the ones that como to the top of my head) 

So reduce CDs is not something new to the game, so FF it’s just a different implementation of something that already exist.

@Kodama.6453  We can discuss about if this mechanic is good of bad for the game or if this implementation is the best but FF is not a unique first time thing that should be addressed

 it’s just one more between others that have a number issue just on one game mode. Shave that 4s reduction to 2s or 1s (and maybe AOE) and the problem is gone. Not much different to apply Alacrity when you CC instead of wells, virtues or a been close to a big robot pulsing it. 

FF and Unnatural Transversal the only 2 things that make untamed a bit different, allowing for different play styles and bringing something new for rangers to the table…. Out of that is just a bunch of not that rewarding micro managing. Remove them and there is no point to play Untamed in front of Druid or SB (or even core) 
 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by ApaWanka.2698

[Mell.4873]

@Kodama.6453

How about every Untamed grandmaster trait lowers cooldowns but is triggered in different ways. 

Fervent Force: Stays the same except with my stuns can't trigger self reduction nerf. 

Restorataitive Strikes: Ambushs now decrease cooldowns by 4 seconds. 

Ferocious Symbiosis: Along with damage increase there is a pure cooldown reduction like Alacrity. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Nephalem.8921]

On 12/6/2022 at 5:47 PM, Mell.4873 said:

Hammer is not nearly as powerful 

Hammer is strong if you play without cds.

Thats an almost 36k dps support build. Which nobody plays because it has like 150 apm. It does not use a single auto attack. nor does it use ambush.

A bit of cdr ok but 4sec are too much. Hammer 3 is a double cc and triggers it twice. So 8sec cdr from a single skill.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Hammer is strong if you play without cds.

Thats an almost 36k dps support build. Which nobody plays because it has like 150 apm. It does not use a single auto attack. nor does it use ambush.

A bit of cdr ok but 4sec are too much. Hammer 3 is a double cc and triggers it twice. So 8sec cdr from a single skill.

That is how I play my PvE power untamed, again realistically you are doing about 20k, but a real strength is the AoE. With enough mobs to tag you can easily do about 40k+.

Unlike Soulbeast that has a burst window, Untamed you have be consistently in the optimumal position for it to work. The best varient is the support version since Storm Spirit is much easier to land. But the Frost Trap is a must and synergies nice with Predators Onslaught. 

[Zaret.1450]

On 12/6/2022 at 5:47 PM, Mell.4873 said:

Hammer is not nearly as powerful 

i think it was doing 39k dps or something like that in sc discord, and even if you tald about axe just reducing it to 3 or maybe 2.5 secs would be a fairly good nerf, at least 1 second more of filler, repeat that for as many cc you use and you may end up loosing like 20 or more seconds? that means much more fillers but wont mean a huge loose on dmg, instead of 40k dmg maybe you go to 38? and having a dificult rota id say its fair and the other traits can compete if you balance them out right

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

That is how I play my PvE power untamed, again realistically you are doing about 20k, but a real strength is the AoE. With enough mobs to tag you can easily do about 40k+.

Unlike Soulbeast that has a burst window, Untamed you have be consistently in the optimumal position for it to work. The best varient is the support version since Storm Spirit is much easier to land. But the Frost Trap is a must and synergies nice with Predators Onslaught. 

You're actually just sticking your head in the sand at this point. I have seen untamed players (pugs, mind you, not people from my static) in raids hit near this number while doing mechanics that they cannot ignore such as friends on samarog. It's not that unrealistic of a number to hit with practice, and you have consistent, strong dps on both the power and condi variants, both of which I have seen run incredibly well.

[ApaWanka.2698]

So I guess that we agree that FF on its current state is a problem on PvE.

 

PvE people (in general) want it to go, PvP and WvW people don’t see issues with it. 

 

the Debate now I guess that is if an overturned and abused trait on one game mode is enough to provoke the remove from it on the other two game modes where it’s not a problem. 

[Nephalem.8921]

10 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

That is how I play my PvE power untamed, again realistically you are doing about 20k, but a real strength is the AoE. With enough mobs to tag you can easily do about 40k+.

Unlike Soulbeast that has a burst window, Untamed you have be consistently in the optimumal position for it to work. The best varient is the support version since Storm Spirit is much easier to land. But the Frost Trap is a must and synergies nice with Predators Onslaught. 

No with high enough apm you can do 40k. Which almost nobody has. Proof in the video. A FF nerf from 4 to 2 sec would already destroy this rotation.

I am not an untamed main and I do not know how many people enjoy this but I never see it in fractals, extremely rarely in open world and never in raids. Saw it once in strikes.

The problem is that they cant really buff the rest of untamed because current pve FF would just completely break the game for the few players who can play this. Solo perma raidboons while doing 40k+ dps levels of broken.

It is currently way too untamed defining. It might aswell be the entire untamed class identity. The pet certainly is not. it is borderline useless.

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, ApaWanka.2698 said:

So I guess that we agree that FF on its current state is a problem on PvE.

 

PvE people (in general) want it to go, PvP and WvW people don’t see issues with it. 

 

the Debate now I guess that is if an overturned and abused trait on one game mode is enough to provoke the remove from it on the other two game modes where it’s not a problem. 

They could just nerf the pve version down to pvp value. 4sec cdr vs mobs which rarely have stab and never dodge might be too much.

[pninak.1069]

I really like the trait, but if it is busted I just gonna let anet do its thing. they already stated that they might adjust it later, but buffing the other traits before that which they did. however the real culprit here is that player considered untamed a useless spec when it came out overlooking such options thus it ended up where it is now.