Fervent Force isn't the problem

[Soilder.3607]

The trait was always massively overpowered. The Untamed kit just wasn't that great at first.  Now that Untamed has been improved a good bit, the trait is a glaring problem. The majority of PvE Untamed builds are using Fervent Force over the alternatives simply because Fervent Force improves every possible build combination by magnitudes in effectiveness. That's why cooldown reduction mechanics need to be carefully balanced, especially in a game where the majority of skills have no cost mechanic (i.e energy in Guild Wars 1 or mana/magic in many other RPG's).

 

No one knows what they are planning to do with the trait, but there are a variety of options that could work, like shaving the cooldown reduction or increasing the ICD or even just flat out redesigning the trait. 

[Zyreva.1078]

Funny how everyone cries "FF op" - even tho most if not all of you won't be able to actually use FF anywhere close to it's full potential and the entire spec is still - after many massive buffs - very niche and situational. But the passive 25% dmg bonus/reduction that are also quite ridiculous compared to similar traits are of course completely fine, because every noob can make use of that. And if they would have to buff those values to 50% to keep Untamed relevant in PvE after deleting FF, i bet nobody of you would complain. Passive boost = good, balanced and fun. Active, hard to use and situational = op and bad design - that's the notion i get from this thread. What a joke...

Edited December 13, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Zyreva.1078]

13 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

This thread here is full of people listing reasons why fervent force is unhealthy design.

Which reasons? All i read is "it's op and unhealthy" but nobody can bring up an actual example why.

"It hurts the entire ranger class" yet ranger hasn't recieved any nerfs in PvE since Untamed release, the exact opposite is the case. The only nerfs that happened were soulbeast specific - completely unrelated to FF, as soulbeast can't use it (Edit: and Iboga AA nerfs, which also aren't affected by FF and therefore completely unrelated, also counteracted by buffs to felines).

"CD reduction without limitation" - yet having to take multiple ccs AND having to land them consistently (many of those ccs not trivial to land even in PvE) is actually a much harsher limitation than most other means of cd reduction that require the unconditional press of a single button or are completely passive. Which is the main reason FF is not used in PvP unlike Renewed Focus, Elemental Celerity, Tactical Reload, Signet of Illusions, various passive cd reduction traits and so on.

FF Untamed is not stacked for ridiculous fast speedkills. It is not stacked because of ease of use. It is not stacked or considered mandatory anywhere. It does not gatekeep any other spec, nobody is "forced" to play it. If you don't like it, don't play it, plenty of better (for most players and encouters) alternatives aviable. It doesn't even has the highest benchmark anymore (tho benchmarks aren't the best representation of balance anyway).

FF isn't used because it is op - it is used because Untamed would be underwhelming without. But still, FS is viable. So if you simply want to play Untamed but are too bad to use FF properly - just use FS. It's not great, but good enough for most content. And deleting FF wouldn't change anything about that.

Edited December 13, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Kodama.6453]

55 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Which reasons? All i read is "it's op and unhealthy" but nobody can bring up an actual example why.

Several examples mentioned, I guess you didn't actually read through this thread. Examples are that untamed has the highest alacrity dps benchmark by far (and also deals more dps than any quickness dps class, as a comparable role), because it can forego any concentration in the build because of the extreme amount of cooldown reduction it gets.

Also currently the highest dps benchmark for ranger.

Literally every meta PvE build for untamed is using that grandmaster trait and no other trait could be even close as long as you can use fervent force efficiently. A permanent 20% damage modifier on top of movement speed is pretty kitten good as a grandmaster trait, yet it is still not taken for dps builds on untamed simply because FF provides even more damage on top of all the other stuff it does.

58 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

"It hurts the entire ranger class" yet ranger hasn't recieved any nerfs in PvE since Untamed release, the exact opposite is the case. The only nerfs that happened were soulbeast specific - completely unrelated to FF, as soulbeast can't use it.

The point is that if FF is kept the way it is, it would potentially lead to nerfs along the way. Fortunately Anet already acknowledged that FF is a problem and that it will get brought down instead of letting it lead to trouble.

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

"CD reduction without limitation" - yet having to take multiple ccs AND having to land them consistently (many of those ccs not trivial to land even in PvE) is actually a much harsher limitation than most other means of cd reduction that require the unconditional press of a single button or are completely passive. Which is the main reason FF is not used in PvP unlike Renewed Focus, Elemental Celerity, Tactical Reload, Signet of Illusions, various passive cd reduction traits and so on.

Landing that CC in PvE is absolutely trivial, it's weird that you pretend it isn't. You are also ignoring how massively more potent that trait is compared to other cooldown reduction mechanics.

To bring the alacrity untamed build example again. That build can keep up 100% alacrity uptime with 0 bonus boon duration and just 2 spirits.

Other ranger builds would require 100% bonus boon duration and 2 spirits, but would usually take 3 and less boon duration to give it some leeway.

From this alone, we already know that the build has more than 50% effective cooldown reduction on the spirits just to be able to achieve that. That is an extremely potent cooldown reduction, especially since it applies to all skills.

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

FF Untamed is not stacked for ridiculous fast speedkills. It is not stacked because of ease of use. It is not stacked or considered mandatory anywhere. It does not gatekeep any other spec, nobody is "forced" to play it. If you don't like it, don't play it, plenty of better (for most players and encouters) alternatives aviable. It doesn't even has the highest benchmark anymore (tho benchmarks aren't the best representation of balance anyway).

A gameplay mechanic doesn't need to get stacked to be unhealthy. What holds FF back is that it is hard to use (not because CCing is hard to land like you pretended, but because this trait leads to an insane amount of skill spam which increases the apm required to use the full potential massively), but if used correctly it is the most busted trait this game has ever seen.

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

FF isn't used because it is op - it is used because Untamed would be underwhelming without. But still, FS is viable. So if you simply want to play Untamed but are too bad to use FF properly - just use FS. It's not great, but good enough for most content. And deleting FF wouldn't change anything about that.

FF is used because it is OP.

It's true that untamed is underwhelming without it, but Anet already stated that they will improve untamed in general before bringing FF down. I guess you think Anet has just willy nilly decided that FF is uncool and that's why they want to bring it down instead of actually looking at the numbers they can directly observe?

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Examples are that untamed has the highest alacrity dps benchmark by far

Golem benchmarks are not relevant for actual balance. Alac Untamed isn't more sought after than any other alac dps spec and IF someone asks for a specific alac spec - it's still mech, never untamed.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Also currently the highest dps benchmark for ranger.

What a nonsensical statement. Something will always have the highest benchmark for any class. Soulbeast is still the better dps spec for actual content.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Literally every meta PvE build for untamed is using that grandmaster trait

You said yourself that's not an argument, because most meta builds use specific traits and never others.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

and no other trait could be even close as long as you can use fervent force efficiently.

That's a big IF.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

A permanent 20% damage modifier on top of movement speed is pretty kitten good as a grandmaster trait, yet it is still not taken for dps builds on untamed simply because FF provides even more damage on top of all the other stuff it does.

FS Untamed isn't played because it is underwhelming compared to any other actually good dps build. Removing FF woudn't change that.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The point is that if FF is kept the way it is, it would potentially lead to nerfs along the way.

Potentially potentially ... Potentially the servers get shut down tomorrow and any balance change is moot. Making up stuff out of thin air showns lack of actual arguments. Aside from this not all nerfs are bad. If the devs out of a sudden want to reduce overall damage output and deside, 38k golem dps is the absolute maximun something should be allowed to deal (with the average significantly! below that) - something i'd agree with btw - there are plenty of options to tone down FF Untamed's dps without killing this or any other build.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Landing that CC in PvE is absolutely trivial, it's weird that you pretend it isn't.

Good luck landing Spores or hammer 4 on moving targets or if you are forced to move away from the target, heck even axe 4 has a habbit of disappearing into nothingness because the ground wasn't perfectly flat or you didn't throw it far enough, or for whatever unknown reason.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

To bring the alacrity untamed build example again. That build can keep up 100% alacrity uptime with 0 bonus boon duration and just 2 spirits.

So what? Not all other boon supports need to invest heavily into boon duration either. Also not running additional boon duration (it has 15% by default from traits) on alac untamed makes it extremely vulnerable to mechanics, miss something and uptime suffers (and as result the entire squad), also can't keep up alac inbetween encounters/during invuln phases. Most other boon supports have a far easier time keeping their boons up in actual content which is far more relevant than personal dps (only exception probably being tempest which suffers from similar issues due to having to go through the entire overload channel).

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Other ranger builds would require 100% bonus boon duration and 2 spirits, but would usually take 3 and less boon duration to give it some leeway.

Druid runs boon duration anyway (and would have garbage dmg even with full dmg stats and only 2 spirits) and for soulbeast having to take nm over beastmastery is the biggest trade off, not the spirits or stats. Also not every spec needs to be good at every role, we don't need mech 2.0. All ranger specs have their own use case where they can shine. As it should be.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

From this alone, we already know that the build has more than 50% effective cooldown reduction on the spirits just to be able to achieve that. That is an extremely potent cooldown reduction, especially since it applies to all skills.

A gameplay mechanic doesn't need to get stacked to be unhealthy. What holds FF back is that it is hard to use (not because CCing is hard to land like you pretended, but because this trait leads to an insane amount of skill spam which increases the apm required to use the full potential massively), but if used correctly it is the most busted trait this game has ever seen.

On paper, in therory, against a golem ... again nothing substantial. In the end all that matters is how well it allows players to clear content and so far untamed doesn't stand out in this regard. Well, at least not in they way your claims suggest.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's true that untamed is underwhelming without it, but Anet already stated that they will improve untamed in general before bringing FF down. I guess you think Anet has just willy nilly decided that FF is uncool and that's why they want to bring it down instead of actually looking at the numbers they can directly observe?

Their numbers (whatever they might be looking at) don't seem to be that concerning, considering they haven't taken any action yet, despite being relatively quick with adjusting suff they deem problematic in recent times. In the end all they said was that they might have to take another look at FF eventually but it apparently isn't a matter of high priority for them. So even if we go by the dev's "numbers" FF clearly isn't as much of a problem as you crusade implies.

Edited December 13, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Mell.4873]

@UmbraNoctis.1907

Sadly it does look like they intend on making some changes to Fervent Force. Let's hope we can create enough awareness that they avoid nerfing it. 

My main point is currently Soulbeast is a still the better elite in every way except for DPS Alacrity Untamed, but that is so niche I have almost never seen it (including myself).

 

@Kodama.6453

I think you over estimated the gap you have to pull of anything more than spamming 1 or 2 skills. Hammer does make it easier since it has 3 stuns but even then you still have to sacrifice 1 utility skills. 

At most every rotation you can maybe pull of 1 or 2 DPS skills. If you ever look at the arc dps you can see most of your damage comes from the Hammer 1,2,5 skills alone. Frost Trap can only ever be equal.

Golem never translates to real life. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Kodama.6453]

6 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

What a nonsensical statement. Something will always have the highest benchmark for any class. Soulbeast is still the better dps spec for actual content.

Guess I have to make that point more clear: You say yourself that untamed without ff is underwhelming. Yet this trait alone pulls the spec from underwhelming to best dps and best alac dps spec for their class by far.

This showcases just how much power is packed into that one single trait. Cooldown reduction is a very powerful tool, since cooldowns are almost the only resource in this game. And ff is the most potent cooldown reduction this game has ever seen.

6 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

FS Untamed isn't played because it is underwhelming compared to any other actually good dps build. Removing FF woudn't change that.

It isn't played because it is harder to pilot, not because it is bad. The apm this build produces thanks to the constant skill spam from ff is just too much for many to handle. kitten, ff builds literally never auto attack in their rotation and even cancel some ongoing skill animations like whirling defense because other skills come off cooldown in the short time it takes to execute these abilities.

6 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Good luck landing Spores or hammer 4 on moving targets or if you are forced to move away from the target, heck even axe 4 has a habbit of disappearing into nothingness because the ground wasn't perfectly flat or you didn't throw it far enough, or for whatever unknown reason.

Hammer 4 isn't even one of the CC skills, hammer 3 and 5 are. I think I might start seeing the reason why you consider it hard to land your CC.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Zyreva.1078]

13 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Yet this trait alone pulls the spec from underwhelming to best dps and best alac dps spec for their class by far.

Which dps build doesn't become underwhelming if you take away one key trait? Aside from this FF has been there since EOD release, yet Untamed was considered the worst PvE spec by far back then, so clearly FF alone is not enough to make the spec viable, nor does it matter if a single trait or skill is stronger or weaker when compared to a single other skill or trait. It's still the whole package and enviroment that matters. Balance does not exist in a vacuum.

Many traits are massively imbalanced if compared 1:1 (and you don't seem to care about those at all), but balanced when viewed in context as it should be.

 

13 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It isn't played because it is harder to pilot, not because it is bad. The apm this build produces thanks to the constant skill spam from ff is just too much for many to handle.

It's not just the apm and difficult rotation alone, FF untamed also struggles a lot with mechanics that force movement, which can hurt dps and alac uptime a lot , making it much worse than vs a golem, even if played perfectly. There are even some encounters where FF doesn't work at all.

13 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Hammer 4 isn't even one of the CC skills, hammer 3 and 5 are. I think I might start seeing the reason why you consider it hard to land your CC.

I meant hammer 3. You really want to base your argumentation arround a typo now?

Just tell me, how much have YOU actually played Untamed?

Edited December 14, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Zaret.1450]

FF isnt a healty trait for ranger in pve, 4 seconds of pure cd reduction makes builds that reach 43k possible, but it only reaches that numbers because of one trait, while ranger still has some core flaws, like pets, and on wvw for example, as FF isnt nearly as strong you only see untameds on pvp builds or roaming, when that elite was made to be  more of a zerg fighter with all the area skills on hammer and untamed itself.

If you nerfed FF on pve to only reduce 3 seconds for example, the impact of the trait would be much much less, and then we could improve a bit ranger with pets playstile, making pet boons trait be on beastmastery, improving a bit pet comands (maybe a way to change the attack my target comand to a "attack that area", the come back to a "go to that spot") those comands would make pet more versatile for me and if pets were easyer to be strengthened, just take one trait line and youll have better pet stats and more pet boons, then just start making adjustments to dmg skills so untamed isnt 43k but doesnt go lower than 38k in pve, and for wvw the best change i can think of is making unleashed ambush skills be the 2 skill in every weapon, and to be just unleashed skills, no timed, with internal cd autoattacks, but modified weapon skills that are overall much better in area dmg and just make the boon strip from the trait have an internal cd instead, nothing huge but a bit of cd so you cant spam it, it could make not only untamed have more area dmg and be less bothersome with the unleashing, but also give a much better boonstrip wich could potentialy compete with others if used well.

[Zyreva.1078]

Balance is split between game modes anyway so nerfing FF in PvE has no impact whatsoever on what they can or will do with untamed in WvW.

[Lazze.9870]

On 12/5/2022 at 6:44 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

Fervent force is not a problem in PvP because:

A The trait is heavily nerfed in that environment (just half the CD refund it gives in PvE)

B CCing a target reliably is harder in that environment, because other players are taking measures to ensure they don't get CCed, unlike PvE enemies.

And because you don't spam CCs in PvP without any drawback.

Anyways, the fact of the matter is that Untamed wouldn't serve any purpose in pve other than having a more difficult damage rotation than its alternatives (at best) if they removed this trait.

As for "the trait doesn't have a defined role"? It's literally the only GM trait on a fairly CC heavy elite spec that has any synergy with CC at all. The role is quite clear, it is just busted in a PvE enviroment where spamming CCs is actually something you can build around.

I would personally like to see it reworked into some boon strip interaction with CCs. There is already a 20 % damage modifier in the GM slot along with a hefty minro GM with a modifier as well. It is pretty kitten clear where Untamed's issue lie as far as PvE viability go. Core. The problem is that those buffs would only amplify soulbeast.

[Kodama.6453]

25 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Anyways, the fact of the matter is that Untamed wouldn't serve any purpose in pve other than having a more difficult damage rotation than its alternatives (at best) if they removed this trait.

This is the exact same problem many other bruiser elite specs are facing in PvE right now, tho.

If deadeye outdamages daredevil, what reason is there to play daredevil?
If spellbreaker isn't the highest dps spec for warrior, why pick it?

Some elite specs get to maneuver around that issue by being the only source of a high impact boon for their class (scrapper is the only way engineer can access quickness, so quickscrapper doesn't compete with any other elite spec in that class, same for willbender with alacrity).

But this is a general issue many bruiser elite specs had to deal with in the past. The point of bruiser specs is having built in defenses, but these defenses are not really valued in PvE because you have other players dedicated to keeping you alive. But generally, untamed does have a niche. It is the elite spec which increases the survivability of a ranger the most while being able to dish out damage. The problem is that this is a niche not really sought after in PvE, but it is useful in competitive modes.

31 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

As for "the trait doesn't have a defined role"? It's literally the only GM trait on a fairly CC heavy elite spec that has any synergy with CC at all. The role is quite clear, it is just busted in a PvE enviroment where spamming CCs is actually something you can build around.

I think you are misunderstanding what is meant wih "role" here.

I am talking about how it was described in Anet's balance manifesto. The concept "purity of purpose" means that every skill/trait/etc. should excel at some roles, while being unable to help in other roles.

The roles they mentioned were stuff like: damage, sustain, boon uptime, mobility, CC, etc.
Fervent force has an impact on all these roles. You get more damage, since your damage abilities have reduced cooldown. You have more sustain, because your sustain abilities have reduced cooldown (including the healing skill). You have more boon uptime, because your boon generating skills have reduced cooldown. You have more CC, because your CC skills have reduced cooldown. This goes on and in.

The trait fills every niche. You want your build to have more damage? Pick fervent force. You want to heal more? Pick fervent force. You want to increase your boon uptime? Pick fervent force.

Meanwhile a trait like ferocious symbiosis has a defined role. It increases your damage and (in fight) mobility. But the trait does not help you getting more sustain, or boon uptime, or CC, etc. There are 2 things this trait does, but it doesn't help with the other stuff. Fervent force does all of these things at once.

36 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

I would personally like to see it reworked into some boon strip interaction with CCs.

Good idea, imo.

[Infusion.7149]

9 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

And because you don't spam CCs in PvP without any drawback.

Anyways, the fact of the matter is that Untamed wouldn't serve any purpose in pve other than having a more difficult damage rotation than its alternatives (at best) if they removed this trait.

As for "the trait doesn't have a defined role"? It's literally the only GM trait on a fairly CC heavy elite spec that has any synergy with CC at all. The role is quite clear, it is just busted in a PvE enviroment where spamming CCs is actually something you can build around.

I would personally like to see it reworked into some boon strip interaction with CCs. There is already a 20 % damage modifier in the GM slot along with a hefty minro GM with a modifier as well. It is pretty kitten clear where Untamed's issue lie as far as PvE viability go. Core. The problem is that those buffs would only amplify soulbeast.

What about a near carbon copy of revenant's stability removal trait?
Fervent force: CC now removes protection and resolution and recharges unleashed ambushes. This would make it relevant in fractals at least and recharging a skill type (unleashed ambushes) means it is relevant when boons aren't existent. Of course it could also recharge unleashed pet skills too.

[Lazze.9870]

23 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

This is the exact same problem many other bruiser elite specs are facing in PvE right now, tho.

If deadeye outdamages daredevil, what reason is there to play daredevil?
If spellbreaker isn't the highest dps spec for warrior, why pick it?

I'm not saying this is a problem, I'm just stating it as a fact.

Spellbreaker is what I have compared Untamed to in the past when I've said that is fine that ranger has a pvp/wvw spec that doesn't "shine" in pve. People don't tend to agree with that. The issue with Untamed is that in that regard is that it didn't bring anything for WvW either (luckily Anet got to their senses and gave druid a bump, so I personally can't be bothered anymore).

23 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The trait fills every niche. You want your build to have more damage? Pick fervent force. You want to heal more? Pick fervent force. You want to increase your boon uptime? Pick fervent force.

I didn't mistunderstand. But the trait has a clear role. This issues appears because PvE encourage you to spam CC. It's the only game mode where this trait is an issue. Hell, it's the only gamemode where this trait is the only one you'd pick. Lots of traits are built around a specific action. It doesn't need to have a "purity of purpose" as far as build craft goes. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

14 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

What about a near carbon copy of revenant's stability removal trait?
Fervent force: CC now removes protection and resolution and recharges unleashed ambushes. This would make it relevant in fractals at least and recharging a skill type (unleashed ambushes) means it is relevant when boons aren't existent. Of course it could also recharge unleashed pet skills too.

A few months ago I'd say anything that makes it more potent for large scale WvW, but now that they finally bumped druid up to par I don't care as much. But I do think the spec should have some direct CC-boonstrip interaction. Its a part of its package, but its half-baked and too reliant on pets.

[Kodama.6453]

15 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

I didn't mistunderstand. The trait has a clear role. This issues appears because PvE encourage you to spam CC. It's the only game mode where this trait is an issue. Hell, it's the only gamemode where this trait is the only one you'd pick.

Lots of traits are built around a specific action. It doesn't need to have a "purity of purpose" as far as build craft goes. That's some real PvE talk mindset, not something I'm interested in.

It's really not that hard to understand.
You are solely focused on the trigger mechanic for it ("I have to use CC to use that trait"), but the "role" of a trait how it is defined is something else.

Roles are stuff like damage, sustain, CC, boons, etc. The fundamental questions are "does this trait improve this part of my build?".

For ferocious symbiosis, the questioning goes this way:

• Does FS improve my damage? Yes ✔️
• Does FS improve my mobility? Yes ✔️
• Does FS improve my sustain? No ❌
• Does FS improve my boon uptime? No ❌
• Does FS help me CCing targets more often? No ❌

Ferocious symbiosis has a clearly defined role. It improves damage and mobility, but nothing else.
Now if we do the same questioning for fervent force, it looks different.

• Does FF improve my damage? Yes ✔️
• Does FF improve my mobility? Yes ✔️
• Does FF improve my sustain? Yes ✔️
• Does FF improve my boon uptime? Yes ✔️
• Does FF help me CCing targets more often? Yes ✔️

CC is just the trigger for the effect, but the effect itself helps you do anything you want with it. The trait does not have a clearly defined role, because it improves everything you do, unlike a trait with defined role like ferocious symbiosis which can just provide damage and mobility, but nothing else.

This observation is true for all game modes. But FF isn't a big problem in PvP/WvW because the effect is heavily nerfed there (just 2 seconds cooldown reduction instead of the 4 seconds in PvE) and because the trigger of the effect is harder to come by (CCing targets is harder in competitive modes than in PvE where it basically happens for free).

So the trigger is helping to keep the trait in check in competitive modes, but it is still an objective truth that the trait has no defined role. It does absolutely everything at once.

[Lazze.9870]

25 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's really not that hard to understand.
You are solely focused on the trigger mechanic for it ("I have to use CC to use that trait"), but the "role" of a trait how it is defined is something else.

Roles are stuff like damage, sustain, CC, boons, etc. The fundamental questions are "does this trait improve this part of my build?".

When I told you I didn't mistunderstand, I meant that. 

Your point is kittening obvious.

I'm saying the trait still has clear role. PARTICULARLY when you look at in conjunction with the hammer. Is it designed well? No, not for a game that rewards CC spam in one of its gamemodes. 

You're the one tying "a role" specifcally into having to "improve boons, damage or support etc". That's not a set rule. It's not unique to FF. Quickdraw is another trait that draws from the same territory as FF. The difference is that it is designed well and not problematic for the game. But it sure as hell isn't confined to "roles" the way you define it. It's on the entire opposite scale and can literally improve anything depending on how you use it.

Edit: and for the record, no, that observation wouldn't be true for all game modes because even if the trait was balanced equally across gamemodes, you can't make viable builds in PvP/WvW on ranger with the same amount of CC spam as you can in PvE. Ferocious Symbiosis would still be the go-to for the LB/GS build. FF might one-up on a hammer build, but your map rotation speed would be kitten. It wouldn't be a best in slot trait at all times.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

When I told you I didn't mistunderstand, I meant that. 

Your point is kittening obvious.

I'm saying the trait still has clear role. PARTICULARLY when you look at in conjunction with the hammer. Is it designed well? No, not for a game that rewards CC spam in one of its gamemodes. 

You're the one tying "a role" specifcally into having to "improve boons, damage or support etc". That's not a set rule. It's not unique to FF. Quickdraw is another trait that draws from the same territory as FF. The difference is that it is designed well and not problematic for the game. But it sure as hell isn't confined to "roles" the way you define it.

Pardon, I misread.

But I am not making up this stuff out of thin air, ya know. Anet themselves have stated these principles in their balance framework they have recently given. So it is supposed to be a rule the game adheres to now. You can stick your head in the sand and go "lalala I can't hear you, Anet!", but this is what the game designers themselves have stated to be the design rules they want to follow now.

And that comparison with quickdraw, come on now. Quickdraw reduces the cooldown of one weapon skill. That is way more limited than fervent force, which reduces the cooldown of all skills at once (including weapon skills, healing skills, elites, utility skills, ALL OF THEM).

[Lazze.9870]

12 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

And that comparison with quickdraw, come on now. Quickdraw reduces the cooldown of one weapon skill. That is way more limited than fervent force, which reduces the cooldown of all skills at once (including weapon skills, healing skills, elites, utility skills, ALL OF THEM).

Come on what? Where does QD fall into your definition of role?

That's right. Nowhere. 

Quickdraw has a great design. FF hasn't. That's the difference. The intention and wider sense of role as a CC trait is definetely there. That's one of the reasons I suggested it should still interact with CCs, the other reason was to further improve the boonstrip potetnial.

It's not about going "la la la", but you're WAAAAY to hung up on "adhering to pve specific roles" if you think every trait in the game is gonna end up as a clear "support, damage, whatever" pick. Again, watch them not rework Quickdraw.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Kodama.6453]

20 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Come on what? Where does QD fall into your definition of role?

That's right. Nowhere. 

Quickdraw has a great design. FF hasn't. That's the difference. The intention and wider sense of role as a CC trait is definetely there. That's one of the reasons I suggested it should still interact with CCs, the other reason was to further improve the boonstrip potetnial.

It's not about going "la la la", but you're WAAAAY to hung up on "adhering to pve specific roles" if you think every trait in the game is gonna end up as a clear "support, damage, whatever" pick. Again, watch them not rework Quickdraw.

Except that quickdraw actually has a defined role.

That trait is only ever taken to improve damage. Maybe also some CC as a niche case. But no one is taking that trait and improving theit sustain with it, or their boon uptime, etc.

So in actual use cases, yes, this trait has a clearly defined role. Damage and some CC. It's not used for anything else. Meanwhile fervent force is used to improve all the things I mentioned.

[Levetty.1279]

People take QD to improve Druid healing.

[Infusion.7149]

Quick Draw recharges a weapon skill, Fervent force recharges everything as opposed to a weapon skill or single utility skill. They are not comparable.

The main reason Fervent Force is "breaking PVE" is you don't need to run boon duration to upkeep alacrity with two spirits and you get to use all the active skills and utilities with lower cooldown than ever intended. This means the alac build can push out 35K benchmark even if most people won't obtain said numbers.

Even if Fervent Force recharged all weapon skills, it would not be nearly as strong as it is currently.

[Levetty.1279]

Balancing Fervent Force based on 'not needing boon duration' is stupid since they will eventually have to remove alacrity from spirits if they ever want a quickness sharing build for Ranger.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Levetty.1279 said:

Balancing Fervent Force based on 'not needing boon duration' is stupid since they will eventually have to remove alacrity from spirits if they ever want a quickness sharing build for Ranger.

There is no indication that there will be a quickness sharing build for ranger nor an alacrity warrior.
That's a lot of whataboutism.

[Levetty.1279]

That isn't what whataboutism means.