What would ya'll think of "Ascended" Core specs?

[SponTen.1267]

Just an idea that's been floating around my head lately - what if your third Spec, if it were Core, could become "Ascended"? Could be part of an Expansion release if it required a lot of work.

My reasons are:

- It would allow Core specs to be more comparable to Elites in PvE and WvW, without changing the levelling experience

- It wouldn't powercreep the game, nor conflict with Elites in terms of providing extra boons

- It would allow new playstyles with what we already have, not just on Core Specs

- It's thematic with the "Elite" Spec slot

- It shouldn't take as much work (in theory) as new Elites, as they're mostly numbers changes

 

Some ideas...

 

Elementalist

Each Ascended Attunement Spec could significantly reduce the cooldown of that Attunement, eg. Ascended Fire could reduce Fire Attunement's cooldown by 40%.

They could also be themed appropriately, like Water having greater range on Soothing Mist, and Earth's Rock Solid providing additional/longer Stability.

Ascended Arcane could allow Alacrity when switching Attunements.

 

Warrior

Double Standards in Discipline could provide Quickness only when Ascended, freeing up Alacrity to be added to Spellbreaker (or other Elites).

Ascended Tactics' Roaring Reveille could provide Alacrity, and Vigorous Shouts could be buffed to open up Heal Warrior.

 

Ranger

Nature's Vengeance could provide Alacrity only when Ascended, and the base skills (non-Ascended too) could allow Spirits to move, similarly freeing up Alacrity on an Elite.

Ascended Beastmastery could make Pets much stronger, allowing Rangers to have actually strong Pets.

 

Necromancer

Ascended Death Magic could make Minions much stronger.

Ascended Soul Reaping could provide Alacrity.

 

Guardian

Haven't thought much about Guardian, but could open up Alacrity + Heals.

 

Thief

Deadly Aim could open up a dual Pistol playstyle when Critical Strikes is Ascended.

Ascended Acrobatics could open up Quickness support.

Something for Short Bow?

 

Engineer

Could make Turrets/Tool Kit a new build?

Alacrity support without Mechanist.

 

Mesmer

Unsure about Mesmer as it's my least-played class and I suck with it.

 

Revenant

Heal Alac again with Ascended Salvation.

Ascended Invocation could reduce cooldown on switching Legends.

 

And for all classes, it could open up new dps builds for those who prefer Core. This would sometimes be especially great for accessibility/LI as some Core classes are simpler, and would allow those who prefer Core themes and mechanics (eg. Necro Shroud) to stick to those builds without losing them when having to pick an Elite for endgame groups.

They could be toned down or just not apply in PvP/WvW if the respective Core class is already strong enough. And if ANet is concerned about selling expansions, they could only be available when at least one Expansion is owned, or even tied to Expansion content (perhaps unlocked with HPs or MPs).

Edited December 10, 2022 by SponTen.1267
Accidentally posted before done, spelling/grammar

[The Boz.2038]

I kinda had a similar idea: Make the third trait line slot "elite", in which any core traitline slotted is made "elite" in some traitline-specific way. Elite spec traitlines are just left as is. Never bothered to take it anyway, but it could be done, were there a desire to "bring core up to par" for some reason.
If ANet wants Core free accounts to not compete with Elite specs, they can make the "elite" status of the 3rd slot unlocked by purchasing an expansion...

[Kuma.1503]

I also had that idea. Where the 3rd traitline is the elite and it gains more power. This could potentially open up so many new ways to play. 

It also allows them to give quick/alac to core specs without causing problems in the future like you alluded to. Maybe they'll opt for something like this in the future.

[Stalima.5490]

They should just make the utility skill line into the core elite specialisation and then work on them a little to improve the core identity

For engi it would be tools and focus on kit and toolbelt traits.

For warrior it would be discipline and focus on weapon swapping and bursts

for ranger It would be beast mastery and focus on pet interactions

 

Following this theme would allow for core specs to be buffed outside of the boundaries of the current elite specialisations reach

It may also allow them to remove many of the weapon/kit cooldown traits and focus them into this specialisation as a more generalised cooldown reduction.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Its my opinion that the core profession mechanic traitline should be locked to core only builds, I.E. it becomes the elite spec for core.

Anet would have to move any core weapon traits out of said traitlines, but it would allow them to buff core without also buffing the elite specs. This would also open up buffing some aspects of the especs given that there would now be one fewer traitline to interact with them.

[SponTen.1267]

9 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Its my opinion that the core profession mechanic traitline should be locked to core only builds, I.E. it becomes the elite spec for core.

Anet would have to move any core weapon traits out of said traitlines, but it would allow them to buff core without also buffing the elite specs. This would also open up buffing some aspects of the especs given that there would now be one fewer traitline to interact with them.

I'll be honest here: I'm not a fan of this idea, as it would push Elites more into the realm of a "new class" rather than a subclass, and may not actually increase build diversity. Sure, it would allow ANet to buff Core and Elite more, but I don't think the game as a whole needs more buffs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

24 minutes ago, SponTen.1267 said:

I'll be honest here: I'm not a fan of this idea, as it would push Elites more into the realm of a "new class" rather than a subclass, and may not actually increase build diversity. Sure, it would allow ANet to buff Core and Elite more, but I don't think the game as a whole needs more buffs.

Removing access to the core profession mechanic traitline also denies the espec access to it's goodies. So its more of a restructure than a set of buffs.

[Kodama.6453]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Removing access to the core profession mechanic traitline also denies the espec access to it's goodies. So its more of a restructure than a set of buffs.

Not really a fan of the suggestion to forbid elite specs access to the class mechanic trait line, tbh. They simply were not designed with that premise and that would kitten up quite some stuff. Some examples of what I mean:

• Soulbeast / Beast Mastery: The elite spec clearly got designed with that trait line in mind, allowing soulbeasts to inherit the effects meant for their pet. Lots of stats lost, no permanent movement speed for them anymore, etc.
• Reaper / Soul Reaping: Not only does reaper rely on this trait line to improve their reaper's shroud, which is their main source of damage, but it is also the only power damage focused trait line next to spite. What is a power reaper supposed to take besides reaper and spite? Curses? Death magic?
• Willbender / Virtues: Battle presence is located in this trait line, which is an essential trait for alacrity willbender. It is already a niche build, but I don't like taking away the ability of willbender to grant alacrity to their team mates.

So maybe it would be better to let these core class mechanic trait lines have improved/additional effects if you use them in the elite trait line slot, instead of absolutely forbidding elite specs to take that trait line at all.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Mell.4873]

Yeah like others have said the current Elite Specialisations are exactly what you are suggesting. Most of the new Traitlines are better versions of what we currently have with the exception of pinching class mechanics like Specter borrowing Shroud from Necromancer. 

Either way a specific Traitline become default paring with an Elite specialisation, like Mechanist and Explosives traitline (aim-assisted rocket). 

[Zaret.1450]

athe thing with core specs isnt realy a lack of traits or skills, many meta builds use core skills and are more dependant on core traits than the elite per se.

Its more a matter of sinergy, take for example rev as its the easiest to look at in my opinion.

as legends you have a healing one, a pure dps one, one more suport/tank with a bit of dmg and a condi one( ventary, shiro, jalis and mallynx)

now for traits you have deva wich is more like a pure power trait to pair with shiro, reta wich pairs with jalis and is more suport as the dmg traits dont realy sinergize between them, corrup, for mallynx and condi, and salvation for ventary, with invo being a blank card for all builds.

now viable builds would be shiro/jalis, jalis/ventary, jalis mallynx, and shiro/mallynx.

now why? shiro and jalis are the only 2 viable options for a power dps, while shiro mallynx is the best at dps condi, and ventary pairs much better with jalis as he has suport.

now this ones were made to optimize either dmg or healing/suport

But if you look closer kalla is more powerfull at condi dmg than shiro usually, archemorus has a more power dps centered set and vicktor is better healer than jalis, as for glint it helps a bit everywere and is pretty good now.

as for traits the best core condi would be corru, deva, invo, but now renegade is better and sinergizes better than deva.

aliance gives better healing/dps traits than corruption or retaliation so you can only choose one to pair with salvation, and again herald is a bit multipurpose but the best boon suport wise.

as for weapons sb is a great condi weapon, and gs is also good  for power, while healing only has staff for example

so in reality its not that cores are bad, but that tye sinergy between certain cores and certain elites is too good, even buffing core traits wont help if you want to be a power dps for example but you are forced to bring a tank/suport/condi traitline

[SponTen.1267]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

athe thing with core specs isnt realy a lack of traits or skills, many meta builds use core skills and are more dependant on core traits than the elite per se.

Its more a matter of sinergy, take for example rev as its the easiest to look at in my opinion.

as legends you have a healing one, a pure dps one, one more suport/tank with a bit of dmg and a condi one( ventary, shiro, jalis and mallynx)

now for traits you have deva wich is more like a pure power trait to pair with shiro, reta wich pairs with jalis and is more suport as the dmg traits dont realy sinergize between them, corrup, for mallynx and condi, and salvation for ventary, with invo being a blank card for all builds.

now viable builds would be shiro/jalis, jalis/ventary, jalis mallynx, and shiro/mallynx.

now why? shiro and jalis are the only 2 viable options for a power dps, while shiro mallynx is the best at dps condi, and ventary pairs much better with jalis as he has suport.

now this ones were made to optimize either dmg or healing/suport

But if you look closer kalla is more powerfull at condi dmg than shiro usually, archemorus has a more power dps centered set and vicktor is better healer than jalis, as for glint it helps a bit everywere and is pretty good now.

as for traits the best core condi would be corru, deva, invo, but now renegade is better and sinergizes better than deva.

aliance gives better healing/dps traits than corruption or retaliation so you can only choose one to pair with salvation, and again herald is a bit multipurpose but the best boon suport wise.

as for weapons sb is a great condi weapon, and gs is also good  for power, while healing only has staff for example

so in reality its not that cores are bad, but that tye sinergy between certain cores and certain elites is too good, even buffing core traits wont help if you want to be a power dps for example but you are forced to bring a tank/suport/condi traitline

I appreciate the thought you put into this.

I know that synergies are a big reason why Elites end up more powerful. That's part of their point; they specialise more in something (damage, defence, heal, support) and often bring new mechanics too.

My issue that having direct upgrades invalidates a whole set of classes and mechanics, which goes against GW2's philosophy of horizontal progression. I don't want Elites to be more powerful - IMO, the player's power feels really great already and I don't think it needs to be nerfed or buffed - I'm just wanting there to be a way for Core classes to be more comparable to Elites.

In solo play, you can generally achieve similar-enough levels of power with Core classes for most content. But we all know that instanced content players expect you to hit certain benchmarks, which Core classes can't always do.

Other than the time investment to develop this and maintain balance, I don't see a major downside to this suggestion. I guess Warrior and Ranger Elites wouldn't have Quickness/Alacrity from Core? But they could have new methods built into their Elite specs.

Core classes are weaker than Elites in the vast majority of cases, and only a few of them can perform roles other than dps. There's also been a lot of people asking for things like Heal Warrior, or Quickness Thief, and it'd be cool to have new ways to play regardless.

It would allow new designs for Warrior and Ranger, who a lot of people have complained about because they don't have Alac/Quick builds, respectively, due to how their Core traits allow them access to a key boon and ANet have stated they don't want any builds having access to permanent group application of both boons.

Lastly, it'd give new players a nice little goal to strive for before Elite specs, and potentially even teach them about the game. There are no Profession Trainers, so it's easy for new players to fall into the trap of never using Steal, or never switching Attunements, for example. But if they could Ascend Trickery or Arcane, respectively, they could have ways to provide group Quickness/Alacrity, which make sense thematically and would give them something to play and learn in early instanced content.

[otto.5684]

I think the idea is neat. Though it is easier to implement on some classes than others. Classes that have distinct core mechanics, like guardian, will have an easy time to implement this, as you can buff the core virtues and virtues trait line. Necro has a base shroud that could be buffed. Not sure what to do for mesmer. We could buff core shatters, but that is somewhat redundant cuz that is what chrono does. Maybe reduced CD on shatter and some buffs to illusions trait line. 

[SponTen.1267]

5 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I think the idea is neat. Though it is easier to implement on some classes than others. Classes that have distinct core mechanics, like guardian, will have an easy time to implement this, as you can buff the core virtues and virtues trait line. Necro has a base shroud that could be buffed. Not sure what to do for mesmer. We could buff core shatters, but that is somewhat redundant cuz that is what chrono does. Maybe reduced CD on shatter and some buffs to illusions trait line. 

I guess that's the thing; what each Ascended Spec does would be dependent on the Spec. So, sure, Ascended Virtues would buff... Virtues of course. But Ascended Zeal would generally buff Strike damage.

Overall, I'd say it's best to keep it simple, to retain the original designs of Core classes. For Mesmer, Ascended Domination would improve Strike damage and Vulnerability; Dueling would be Crit and Bleeding damage; Chaos would be Defences and Condition Damage; Inspiration would be Healing and Support; and Illusions would be Illusions and Shatters.

Core builds aren't that much worse than Elites in their current state, so the numbers wouldn't need to be crazy. Hell, there are even some Core builds that perform incredibly well; I've seen some Core Warrior, Engineer, and Thief builds do 32k+ dps with a bunch of extras like Boon Support or CC.

Ascended Specs would just allow the underpowered ones to perform better, open up some design space, and also allow people to play a "new" variety of old builds in top-end content.

Edited December 15, 2022 by SponTen.1267
Missed a couple words

[draxynnic.3719]

It's an interesting idea. It would take a fair amount of work to devise 45 different ascended traitlines, but they could probably reduce that by, say, only supercharging the minors and grandmasters. Or they could start out with only three ascended traitlines per profession - enough that any build would have at least one to ascend - and build from there.

On 12/14/2022 at 4:20 AM, zaswer.5246 said:

athe thing with core specs isnt realy a lack of traits or skills, many meta builds use core skills and are more dependant on core traits than the elite per se.

Its more a matter of sinergy, take for example rev as its the easiest to look at in my opinion.

as legends you have a healing one, a pure dps one, one more suport/tank with a bit of dmg and a condi one( ventary, shiro, jalis and mallynx)

now for traits you have deva wich is more like a pure power trait to pair with shiro, reta wich pairs with jalis and is more suport as the dmg traits dont realy sinergize between them, corrup, for mallynx and condi, and salvation for ventary, with invo being a blank card for all builds.

now viable builds would be shiro/jalis, jalis/ventary, jalis mallynx, and shiro/mallynx.

now why? shiro and jalis are the only 2 viable options for a power dps, while shiro mallynx is the best at dps condi, and ventary pairs much better with jalis as he has suport.

now this ones were made to optimize either dmg or healing/suport

But if you look closer kalla is more powerfull at condi dmg than shiro usually, archemorus has a more power dps centered set and vicktor is better healer than jalis, as for glint it helps a bit everywere and is pretty good now.

as for traits the best core condi would be corru, deva, invo, but now renegade is better and sinergizes better than deva.

aliance gives better healing/dps traits than corruption or retaliation so you can only choose one to pair with salvation, and again herald is a bit multipurpose but the best boon suport wise.

as for weapons sb is a great condi weapon, and gs is also good  for power, while healing only has staff for example

so in reality its not that cores are bad, but that tye sinergy between certain cores and certain elites is too good, even buffing core traits wont help if you want to be a power dps for example but you are forced to bring a tank/suport/condi traitline

I think it is worth keeping in mind that core revenant is especially bad when it comes to synergies. This was recognised while it was in beta, and Glint's greater versatility as a legend was immediately recognised as being the glue that held the profession together (and every elite legend since has trended to versatility). The problem is that each core legend, and therefore the associated traitlines, is focused on a specific role and the roles didn't have much ability to synergise with one another. Jalis/Shiro manages to work because they're both power DPS and being able to switch between bruiser and ganker modes is reasonably synergetic, but other core combinations tend to be 'this is the legend I'm actually focused on, this is the least bad second legend to go with it'.

Other professions don't have this issue. Elementalist kinda does, but the differences between elements is less extreme (most elements are associated with at least two functions, and picking any two will usually have some overlap) and the traitlines do show signs of having been designed to have synergies between them. Core guardian, by contrast, has very good synergies and until EoD managed to maintain competitive builds in every mode.

[Zaret.1450]

i used rev as exam0le because it was very clear how it didnt sinergize well without elites, and yes some classes like guardian do have good sinergies, but you see those core classes having good builds and being used, although they arent as well known, also we need to factor the weapons and skills, elites being more focused means you can have a good trait combo, a set of skills completely focused on one thing and one or more weapon sets to choose, if we had to strengthen core it would probably need some weapon/skills adittion to core classes

[Dadnir.5038]

I'd say that the idea isn't bad but that the effects aren't consistent enough. I'd be "ok" with the "ascendent traitline" having strengthened minor traits but it shouldn't go farther than that.

 For example the ascended elementalist 3rd traitline would be any one of those:

• Fire/Air/Earth/Water traitline: First minor no longer restricted to a specific traitline, 2nd minor "improved" (Sunspot get aoe blind, electric discharge apply weakness, earthen blast apply bleed, healing ripple apply chill), 3rd minor now also reduce traitline attunment CD by 20%.
• Arcane traitline: Arcane prowess would grant might to 5 allies within 240 radius. Elemental attunment would additionally grant 2s of fury on switching attunment. Elemental enchantment would offer 240 concentration instead of 180 and increase the CD recharge reduction of the attunments to 20%.

Ascended engineer 3rd traitline traitline would eb any one of those:

• Explosive traitline: Add bleed (6s) to explosive entrance. Double vuln stack applied by steel-packed powder. Shaped charge also offer 0.5% incoming damage reduction per vuln stacks on the foe that hit you.
• Firearms traitline: Sharpshooter now have 100% chance of applying bleed on a critical hit. Hematic focus would add an extra 2% critical chance for each different damaging condition on your foe (up to an extra 8% -torment-burn-poison-confusion-). Serrated steel also increase bleed damage by 10%.
• Invention traitline: Cleansing synergy increased condition removed upon using a healing skill to 2. Add resolution to reconstruction enclosure. Energy amplifier get a 10% increase in outgoing healing while under the effect of regeneration.
• Alchemy traitline: Hidden elixir also add toss elixir H effect to F5 impact area. Transmute add toss elixir C to F5 impact area. Compounding chemical add minor toss elixir S (stealth reduced to 2s) to F5 impact area.
• Tools traitline: Optimized activation grant 5 endurance upon using a belt skill. Mechanized deployment reduce belt CD by 20% and grant resistance upon using a belt skill. Excessive synergy also affect condition damages.

 

... etc.

I think it's enough to express what I mean.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Jobber.6348]

I'd just make a system where the Core class gets one extra class skill to develop their playstyle around if it's slotted into Elite. 

Take Warrior for example: 
If they have Discipline slotted in the 3rd slot, they gain one extra skill called "Quick Burst" that is essentially a Level 1 Burst on a 20s cooldown or something. The addition of just one skill like that could potentially formulate interesting strategies if not for PvE, for PvP or WvW. 

Another interesting Example would be for example Mesmer's Illusions: 
They get a passive skill where everytime they cast 4 skills, their 4th skill will deal additional damage and create a clone next to the target. 

And why not an example for Revenant's Mallyx:

An active skill that consumes conditions on them for Resistance each, up to 5 conditions. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Yasai.3549

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

i used rev as exam0le because it was very clear how it didnt sinergize well without elites, and yes some classes like guardian do have good sinergies, but you see those core classes having good builds and being used, although they arent as well known, also we need to factor the weapons and skills, elites being more focused means you can have a good trait combo, a set of skills completely focused on one thing and one or more weapon sets to choose, if we had to strengthen core it would probably need some weapon/skills adittion to core classes

I suspected that, but it did come across as if you were presenting revenant as a representative example rather than an extreme one, which is a bit misleading. Most professions do allow for having three traitlines that all support a particular role on core, it's just that the elite specialisations work out just a little bit better (which is what the OP's idea is looking to address). I suspect the real issue was that revenant was designed with elite specialisations in mind, so the focus was on making sure that any future legend would have at least one core legend it could match with, while the other professions had to work as they were before elite specialisations.

[otto.5684]

20 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

I guess that's the thing; what each Ascended Spec does would be dependent on the Spec. So, sure, Ascended Virtues would buff... Virtues of course. But Ascended Zeal would generally buff Strike damage.

Overall, I'd say it's best to keep it simple, to retain the original designs of Core classes. For Mesmer, Ascended Domination would improve Strike damage and Vulnerability; Dueling would be Crit and Bleeding damage; Chaos would be Defences and Condition Damage; Inspiration would be Healing and Support; and Illusions would be Illusions and Shatters.

Core builds aren't that much worse than Elites in their current state, so the numbers wouldn't need to be crazy. Hell, there are even some Core builds that perform incredibly well; I've seen some Core Warrior, Engineer, and Thief builds do 32k+ dps with a bunch of extras like Boon Support or CC.

Ascended Specs would just allow the underpowered ones to perform better, open up some design space, and also allow people to play a "new" variety of old builds in top-end content.

I was thinking that only 1 trait line could be ascended, not all 5. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

I like the idea of ascended core specs, although it's quite a bit of work to offer an upgraded path for every trait line. Maybe one per profession.

Another idea, which may have been mentioned, is to buff the core profession mechanic upon reaching level 80. A buff here wouldn't benefit the especs, while putting all core builds on a more even playing field.