Stop, he's already dead.

[Kodama.6453]

8 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

You must be playing a different game because I still see power mechs all the time.

I do, too. Unfortunately.

I recently did some EoD strikes with pugs and we had a "power dps mechanist". They did 5k on Ankka.

[The Boz.2038]

9 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I do, too. Unfortunately.

I recently did some EoD strikes with pugs and we had a "power dps mechanist". They did 5k on Ankka.

Last few weeks, pMechs have been getting replaced by pVirts steadily in PUGs and loosely organized groups. This week, RTI said "power mech is no longer listed on snowcrows, so it won't be accepted on runs no more". The weekly strike clear had six pVirts.

[zeyeti.8347]

31 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I do, too. Unfortunately.

I recently did some EoD strikes with pugs and we had a "power dps mechanist". They did 5k on Ankka.

he was playing condi with rifle ? 😁

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Ah, I missed that part. Idk what you're doing wrong then, I get 27-28k with staff on weaver too, and I don't have to press any more buttons than on mech either (F skills get replaced by utility skills in the rotation).

Which is a great comparison into: pmech is fine since it does more with similar effort AND it transitions better to actual fights thanks to the pet (meaning it actually does more in real fight scenarios), retains a lot more utility slots if desired/needed. Something which still puts it apart from even LI ele builds.

Power mech is in a great spot for a lower end low intensity build. That's exactly where the spec belongs currently given the over simplification it has received design wise.

Now if mech were to get reworked so that it actually has a diverging performance between "I press almost no buttons" and "I actually know what I am doing" (similar to other classes), the situation might change.

Also again, virtuoso being completely busted is no argument for mech being under-powered. Everything is under-powered to virtuoso atm (relatively speaking, there are some other busted specs in game).

But we can argue in circles all we want, the same players arguing in favor of mech, most often being the ones who claimed mech was fine when it was bat-kitten cray over the top, while others favor a more balanced approach taking issue with specs taking up far to much space representation wise with finally some who simply hate a spec because they dislike it.

As far as mech is concerned, I doubt we will see a return to where it was insanely overpowered, which is a good thing and no amount of irrational pleas for arenanet to bring back that state will change that (not because I say so, but because such an over-representation of 1 class is very unhealthy design wise).

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[The Boz.2038]

5 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

it transitions better to actual fights thanks to the pet (meaning it actually does more in real fight scenarios)

You keep saying this.

You keep insisting on being wrong on this one point.

Well, I'll just keep calling you out on it.

On non-golem fights, the pet is a liability, not some sort of unique advantage. It does less in real fight scenarios. To claim otherwise is fantasy.

[Cyninja.2954]

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You keep saying this.

You keep insisting on being wrong on this one point.

Well, I'll just keep calling you out on it.

On non-golem fights, the pet is a liability, not some sort of unique advantage. It does less in real fight scenarios. To claim otherwise is fantasy.

and my experience with newer players or less skilled players says otherwise (with the gap becoming smaller at higher skill levels). The fact the pet can act independently of the player would also lead one to believe that: logic dictates it keeps performing while other classes output would be put to 0. But I am sure you have your reasons. (and in case you still didn't understand what I am talking about,it's about relative performance loss between golem and real fight on the same class. A mech loses less in performance, even with sub-optimal buff uptime versus most other classes, which output goes to 0 most often in less than ideal play. That's the entire reason the buff was put in place to begin with, reduce the pets performance to mirror other classes having to deal with mechanics while giving the player a chance to optimize the output)

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[The Boz.2038]

7 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

newer players or less skilled players...

Ah, well, with that caveat, sure, yeah. If you go one further, and be entirely afk, you will find that the mech does THREE TIMES the damage of a comparable ranger build (unmerged), and INFINITY times the damage of any other build that is equally on the toilet going number 2.

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

logic dictates it keeps performing while other classes output would be put to 0

It keeps performing with meh, sure. And when the full on free farm DPS phase comes, the performance is still in the realm of meh. No "real world" factor here increases the performance in relation to, you know, another capable DPS.

10 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

it's about relative performance loss between golem and real fight on the same class

In a real fight, the mech, even pew-pew, will randomly walk out of stats range, losing DPS, with no movement of the boss or player causing this. This is a DPS loss that is impossible to predict. In that case, it will need to be called back, another DPS loss, and ordered to attack again. When called back, mech sometimes walks through player, and doesn't stop until out of stats range again. 

Going from 80 (for a minute) to 20 (for ten seconds) is not better than going from 100 (for a minute) to 0 (for ten seconds). And even that gain is rendered moot if it is compared to a condition build, pVirt, Scourge, soulbeast, etc. 
You're just trying real hard to squeeze water out of the rock and point at it screaming "see, that's yet another advantage mech has!"
Surprised you haven't pointed out how it has TWICE THE HP OF A NORMAL PLAYER, OMG!

[Sindust.7059]

2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Which is a great comparison into: pmech is fine since it does more with similar effort AND it transitions better to actual fights thanks to the pet (meaning it actually does more in real fight scenarios), retains a lot more utility slots if desired/needed. Something which still puts it apart from even LI ele builds.

 

Power mech is in a great spot for a lower end low intensity build. That's exactly where the spec belongs currently given the over simplification it has received design wise.

 

Now if mech were to get reworked so that it actually has a diverging performacne between "I press almost no buttons" and "I actually know what I am doing", the situation might change.

 

Also again, virtuoso being completely busted is no argument for mech being under-powered. Everything is under-powered to virtuoso atm (relatively speaking, there are some other bsuted specs in game).

Try condi shortbow soulbeast. It actually does better with the same effort, and translates just as well to condi fights as power mech does to power fights. Elementalist was just an example, and only because it was mentioned multiple times by @zeyeti.8347 in this thread. And with soulbeast you can also bring stability and condi cleanse for the group at next to no DPS loss, so utility is there too.

 

And personally I would rather compare power mech to tempest, and argue that both do the same damage with the LI builds, both do similar damage (though nowadays tempest is 2k better, which for the sake of argument I will consider ok since the rotation for that is more complicated) with their "all out" builds, both can be alac and heal, and both are underperforming with their DPS and could use some QoL improvements and a slight DPS buff. For the mech the return to pre November 29th would be just right, and tempest should get a 1-2k DPS buff too.

 

With all that they would still both be falling way below the 40k firebrand benchmark while bringing less utility, which I would argue would be sufficient "ranged tax".

[Cyninja.2954]

10 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Ah, well, with that caveat, sure, yeah. If you go one further, and be entirely afk, you will find that the mech does THREE TIMES the damage of a comparable ranger build (unmerged), and INFINITY times the damage of any other build that is equally on the toilet going number 2.

Yes, which is one of the issues given the average skill level of most players in the game. Also one of the main reasons the spec was (and in fact still is) very popular.

10 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

It keeps performing with meh, sure. And when the full on free farm DPS phase comes, the performance is still in the realm of meh. No "real world" factor here increases the performance in relation to, you know, another capable DPS.

The operative word being "capable". Yes, this spec is not meant for high end performance players (at least power mech is not any more).

Which is perfectly fine in my opinion. It performs similar to LI builds of other classes out of the box now and it's output has been adjusted to match that.

10 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

In a real fight, the mech, even pew-pew, will randomly walk out of stats range, losing DPS, with no movement of the boss or player causing this. This is a DPS loss that is impossible to predict. In that case, it will need to be called back, another DPS loss, and ordered to attack again. When called back, mech sometimes walks through player, and doesn't stop until out of stats range again. 

Going from 80 (for a minute) to 20 (for ten seconds) is not better than going from 100 (for a minute) to 0 (for ten seconds). And even that gain is rendered moot if it is compared to a condition build, pVirt, Scourge, soulbeast, etc. 
You're just trying real hard to squeeze water out of the rock and point at it screaming "see, that's yet another advantage mech has!"

and it will do all those things less in a more skilled players hands. Also good call, the fact that having 80% and 20% damage uptime might equal up another players 100% ad 0% is exactly the issue at hand. That comparison falls apart the moment the other player dies though and never gets back from his 0% performance, something the mech player has an easier time with because you know, their mech is still doing some damage while they are focusing on mechanics.

10 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Surprised you haven't pointed out how it has TWICE THE HP OF A NORMAL PLAYER, OMG!

You can be as snarky as you want, the mech being near invulnerable in pve is actually an issue. If this were not the case, other balance avenues could have been taken.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Kodama.6453]

35 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

he was playing condi with rifle ? 😁

I guess they were playing power rifle. But the only signet they took was overclock signet. No shift signet (which is hard requirement for ANY mechanist build), no force signet, no rectifier signet.

I just also noticed that they took rifle turret and rocket turret as well.

I was trying to replicate that build. But with full bersi equip, no boons on myself at all (they had quickness and alacrity both), no condis for modified ammunition, no signets except overclock...

I put out a rifle turret and rocket turret. Even with all these hindrances, I was doing 7k dps just by auto attacking. Which means that they probably didn't even use berserker stats for their power build.

Honestly, it was terrifying. I wasn't expecting that anyone could do that bad on mechanist with all the hand holding it has.

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

It performance similar to LI builds of other classes

It is not. 
But this is the ninja dodger stance, isn't it? As an LI build, you can say it needs 2 APM, and then compare it to other LI builds doing 2 APM, and say There! See?, but at the same time, played optimally with, say, a leisurely 50 APM, it does about 75-80% of what any other optimal build does at that same ~50 APM, but then it's Oooh, but it has range and the off phase damage, and we conveniently ignore that half the other builds have range and condis and those are just exceptions, and you really really hope nobody tries to count all the exceptions and figures out that, whoa, would you look at that, the exceptions make up almost half the viable DPS roster, lol.

[Xenash.1245]

Reading some people trying to justify their stance as being the correct one just because the patch notes support their position really is interesting, since I'm sure if you looked into the history of any of those people I'm sure you'd see them complaining about class changes in the past. But do continue, it will never not be entertaining seeing some people speak as if they're an arbiter of truth.

That said I'm not even really sure how I feel about this personally so I might not even agree with the engineer sentiment, but that doesn't mean I can't empathize with how some people just seem to be trying to throw their punches while you're down.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Xenash.1245

[Cyninja.2954]

16 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

It is not. 
But this is the ninja dodger stance, isn't it? As an LI build, you can say it needs 2 APM, and then compare it to other LI builds doing 2 APM, and say There!

Ideally yes, I do think similar input should result in somewhat similar of an output. Now this doesn't have to be exact to the dot, but I do differentiate between 1-2 APM, 10-25 APM and anything above 50 APM.

Hence why I disagree with calling all LI builds similar or identical, because just as regular builds are not, those builds differ too. Some being insanely simple, others being close to actual rotations with just some steps removed.

16 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

See?, but at the same time, played optimally with, say, a leisurely 50 APM, it does about 75-80% of what any other optimal build does at that same ~50 APM, but then it's Oooh, but it has range and the off phase damage, and we conveniently ignore that half the other builds have range and condis and those are just exceptions, and you really really hope nobody tries to count all the exceptions and figures out that, whoa, would you look at that, the exceptions make up almost half the viable DPS roster, lol.

I do agree that power mechanist having a low output at maximum performance in ideal play is an issue. I personally don't mind that (and I have given ideas on how the class could be redesigned). I'm not the one who designed the spec to be completely loaded with passive and no interaction game-play but I can disagree with this design seeing over-proportionate rewards.

The problem I see is that with the current design, buffing the spec to make it "viable" for high end play also buffs it's low end builds, which I see as far more of an issue game wide.

Sure would been wonderful to see more players engage in constructive discussion on what could be done design wise to change this situation, yet most players only come asking for numeric buffs while wanting to hold on to this classes passive design, and until that design is changed, I doubt the spec will or should get buffed (because it will immediately bully out most other specs again).

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Sindust.7059]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Would have been wonderful to see more players engage in constructive discussion on what could be done design wise, yet most players only come asking for numeric buffs while wanting to hold on to this classes passive design.

If you search through my post history, you will find me saying that the autocast on F skills was unnecessary. I would much rather do that than work around the buggy mech positioning. If that is the compromise you're ok with, I'm ok with that too. Though tbh it's already a DPS loss if you don't use the F skills manually.

[Cyninja.2954]

34 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Try condi shortbow soulbeast. It actually does better with the same effort, and translates just as well to condi fights as power mech does to power fights. Elementalist was just an example, and only because it was mentioned multiple times by @zeyeti.8347 in this thread. And with soulbeast you can also bring stability and condi cleanse for the group at next to no DPS loss, so utility is there too.

and even here, Soulbeast under-performs compared to power mech. It's has less flexibility overall, no pierce, requires positioning behind the enemy, has less range, less mobility and transitions into worse alternative builds (power alac mech and heal mech).

Otherwise sure, condi soulbeast remains a very easy to use beginner condi build.

34 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

And personally I would rather compare power mech to tempest, and argue that both do the same damage with the LI builds, both do similar damage (though nowadays tempest is 2k better, which for the sake of argument I will consider ok since the rotation for that is more complicated) with their "all out" builds, both can be alac and heal, and both are underperforming with their DPS and could use some QoL improvements and a slight DPS buff. For the mech the return to pre November 29th would be just right, and tempest should get a 1-2k DPS buff too.

 

 

With all that they would still both be falling way below the 40k firebrand benchmark while bringing less utility, which I would argue would be sufficient "ranged tax".

and once again, other specs being busted (which firebrand is) is no argument for buffing weaker specs.

As mentioned, the game falls apart real fast at high damage levels. Anything above 40k is a serious offender here (actually anything above 35k and even technically 30k for some older raid/fractal content, but let's not get into that) and will eventually have to get addressed. My guess is the developers are currently flying close to the sun because it suits their design decision of lowering the skill floor. Doesn't change the fact that a majority of builds are insanely busted and unhealthy for the game (unless power creeping content difficulty is the goal).

Firebrand needs adjusting, agreed.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

other specs being busted

This neatly loops us back around to that "wow, look, half the roster is exceptions that are 'busted', so let's ignore those"

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

This neatly loops us back around to that "wow, look, half the roster is exceptions that are 'busted', so let's ignore those"

 

No, half the roster is not the focus of this discussion. Using them as argument that something is under-performing simply means you want more specs to be "busted", which in relation to this games pve difficulty actually causes problems. There is a difference here.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Sindust.7059]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

and once again, other specs being busted (which firebrand is) is no argument for buffing weaker specs.

If every spec is "busted", no spec is. You're comparing mech to the game state of a year ago. Just because now everyone is better, isn't an argument against underperforming builds in the current game state.

 

We've already talked about virtuoso, firebrand, and I'll throw in deadeye who does 35k with 3 buttons and almost 45k with a full rotation.

 

You're complaining about the state of the game in general, but you let your frustrations out on an already dead spec because it used to be too good 6 months ago.

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

No, half the roster is not the focus of this discussion. Using them as argument that something is under-performing simply means you want more specs to be "busted", which in relation to this games pve difficulty actually causes problems.

It is impossible to say something is under- or over-performing if you don't take the alternatives into account.
Also, so long as you don't buff something up to the top tier, buffing it won't budge the Expected Maximum Power one bit. 
And we have already demonstrated that there are better forming """"LI"""" builds out there, so that point might die, too.

[Sindust.7059]

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

no pierce

Also this is wrong. Condi shortbow build does have pierce.

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

It is impossible to say something is under- or over-performing if you don't take the alternatives into account.

 

But we are taking alternatives into account, other LI builds, all the not busted top tier builds. Those exist too in a not 2 dimensional world.

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Also, so long as you don't buff something up to the top tier, buffing it won't budge the Expected Maximum Power one bit. 

True, but it will change the dynamic for every other build below the top tier builds.

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

And we have already demonstrated that there are better forming """"LI"""" builds out there, so that point might die, too.

Actually, no you haven't. The best which was mentioned was tempest and condi soulbeast. Both of which are AT BEST on par and at worst actually weaker. How is that an argument FOR buffing power mech? Sure there are LI builds which outperform power mech, and most of them have either other disadvantages or require significantly higher performance.

Listen, arenanet could introduce a 100k dps, 500k burst, double the hitpoints of the player spec right now. It would be insanely busted, everything would pale compared to it and everyone could come and demand their class gets buffed. Not even to the maximum, just to half that specs performance. It would still completely obliterate the game.

You are saying half the roster of classes is over-performing, I agree. I disagree that this means everything needs to get buffed. There is a large amount of well balanced classes below that top tier. Some class being totally busted is NEVER an argument to buff other classes UNLESS it works within the framework of the game too.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Also this is wrong. Condi shortbow build does have pierce.

 

It does? On all it's attacks? The ones that do pierce do max damage at 900 range?

[Sindust.7059]

2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

It does? On all it's attacks? The ones that do pierce do max damage at 900 range?

Not all mech attacks do max damage at 900 range either. Both shortbow 2 on SB and rifle 2 on mech do much less damage at that range. And rifle 5 is useless unless you play melee. All the other skills on shortbow do do their max damage at 900, there is a trait that adds pierce to all shortbow skills.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Sindust.7059
Mixed up SB abbreviation with both Soulbeast and shortbow

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

But we are taking alternatives into account, other LI builds, all the not busted top tier builds.

Wheesh! That's some heavy caveating! The pruning, sheesh! 

Did you know that the Trabant is the fastest car in the world*?

* - if you take into account other plastic cars, all the not busted top tier racecars.

[Cyninja.2954]

4 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Not all mech attacks do max damage at 900 range either.

True, mech is 1,200 range.

4 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Both shortbow 2 on SB and rifle 2 on mech do much less damage at that range.

Rifle 2 also gives might (less relevant when having max stacks) so it retains some actual value.

4 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

And rifle 5 is useless unless you play melee.

Rifle 5 is a leap finisher which actually can see use, especially when paired with medkit or other combo fields.

4 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

All the other skills on shortbow do do their max damage at 900, there is a trait that adds pierce to all shortbow skills.

True, I forgot about the trait since I somehow had memorized that one would take a different trait.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954