Stop, he's already dead.

[freakcoco.4287]

3 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Funny enough when I pugged I only met 1 Pmech out of 5 group. But that aside, all the people complaining about Mech used benchmark performance so I'm not going to restrain myself on that as well. 

 

And no I dont care about what you main, I just find it funny when a spec, especially an Ele spec, is overperforming and gets a slight adjustement, people suddenly cry the end of the world .But when Engineer complains that Anet literally killed the only good core weapon worth using in PvP/WvW and made the PvE version unfun, everyone act like justice has been restored. But like you say, Elementalist still has other DPS spec. 

Stop it, you becoming more and more like a elementalist main 🤣

 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Just now, freakcoco.4287 said:

Stop it, you becoming more and more like a elementalist main 🤣

 

 

Hey they keep crying their class is the worst class in the game in all gamemode and it seems to be working quite well. They are getting more buffs everywhere. 

 

If more players keep acting like that, maybe Anet will decide to rework engineer pistol and revert fix rifle 

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

 

It's not a benchmark

Rifle mech got nerf really hard , and it is death , it cannot compare with other low intensity build .

 

 

holosmith

 

 

I love how even in your own comparison you decide that comparing a build which presses 2 buttons total and then has 0 interaction somehow qualifies as low intensity. That's the issue at hand here: pmech is a "no intensity" build which produces higher results on most content compared to most other builds.

The only thing you've shown is that the criticism remains true. That LI holo build has far more interaction requirements (not only that but you even decided to go with Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit, which actually requires semi precise management to not incur a significant dps loss due to overheating), it's melee range, doesn't pierce and has no benefit of the mech always being on target.

This leads to the core of the issue though: players making subjective and uninformed comparisons. Pmech remains a strong build with nearly no peers in its own category, that of no interaction requirement and pet produced performance at max range. That's the reason it's been and why it remains so popular still (and why it was hilariously overpowered in the past).

The only drawback here is that it has actually fallen out of the potential top damage position, meaning it's not a real option (it remains strong on some fights, especially if pierce is present) for good or high end players.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[freakcoco.4287]

33 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I love how even in your own comparison you decide that comparing a build which presses 2 buttons total and then has 0 interaction somehow qualifies as low intensity. That's the issue at hand here: pmech is a "no intensity" build which produces higher results on most content compared to most other builds.

The only thing you've shown is that the criticism remains true. That LI holo build has far more interaction requirements (not only that but you even decided to go with Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit, which actually requires semi precise management to not incur a significant dps loss due to overheating), it's melee range, doesn't pierce and has no benefit of the mech always being on target.

This leads to the core of the issue though: players making subjective and uninformed comparisons. Pmech remains a strong build with nearly no peers in its own category, that of no interaction requirement and pet produced performance at max range. That's the reason it's been and why it remains so popular still (and why it was hilariously overpowered in the past).

The only drawback here is that it has actually fallen out of the potential top damage position, meaning it's not a real option (it remains strong on some fights, especially if pierce is present) for good or high end players.

 

Rifle power mech is underperforming, you don't need to comparing with holo, rifle definition overnerf for sure.

And even rifle mech got nerf to the lowest dps for mech and ppl still like it.

21~22k auto dps is nothing, you can do it in most of class, but mecha hate is real, and it won't fix by nerf it, even now i can find "mech op pls nerf" on forum/reddit/in game chat.

 

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

 

Rifle power mech is underperforming, you don't need to comparing with holo, rifle definition overnerf for sure.

And even rifle mech got nerf to the lowest dps for mech and ppl still like it.

21~22k auto dps is nothing, you can do it in most of class, but mecha hate is real, and it won't fix by nerf it, even now i can find "mech op pls nerf" on forum/reddit/in game chat.

 

 

 

but it's not only 21-22k auto is it? It's 21-22k auto with NO input (and more with minimal input), on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters aka the difference between bench and encounter is lower) with pierce, max range and good utility skills.

That's what no other class mirrors even now and ignoring those factors, which still contribute to the classes popularity, is what makes your arguments dishonest/biased (and leads to a different evaluation on where the class is now from you versus say the developers which see a reason to re-balance).

Edited December 16, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[freakcoco.4287]

30 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

but it's not only 21-22k auto is it? It's 21-22k auto with NO input (and more with minimal input), on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters aka the difference between bench and encounter is lower) with pierce, max range and good utility skills.

That's what no other class mirrors even now and ignoring those factors, which still contribute to the classes popularity, is what makes your arguments dishonest/biased (and leads to a different evaluation on where the class is now from you versus say the developers which see a reason to re-balance).

What I mean is no matter it performance good or not(and it's pretty bad now) , if it is AI pet class ppl will play it and hate it, constant nerfing it won't solve the problem.

Edited December 16, 2022 by freakcoco.4287

[The Boz.2038]

32 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters

Lower, actually, what with the pet moving around for no reason, losing stats for no reason, and having to be leashed every now and then, so it stops DPSing. For no reason.
But do go on.

[Cyninja.2954]

8 minutes ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

What I mean is no matter it performance good or not(and it's pretty bad now) , if it is AI pet class ppl will play it and hate it, constant nerfing it won't solve the problem.

 

That is true to some extent, eventually nerfing it will lead to enough of an exodus to "solve" the problem of over-representation (and I don't buy into the idea that players play the mech only because they enjoy it. Many do so because it's easy and ultra simplistic).

 

The better approach would be to change and rework some of the issue the class has which separates it from other classes, be it by making other classes more similar to mech (which can be good and bad, depending on how damaging these changes result to the core design of this game) while also reworking mech so it is not as much an outlier.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Lower, actually, what with the pet moving around for no reason, losing stats for no reason, and having to be leashed every now and then, so it stops DPSing. For no reason.
But do go on.

That's a positioning and reaction issue and on most encounters, on this level of game play, the pet results in higher output (compared to other class benchmarks on golem versus real encounter. The loss mech experiences is less. Obviously the pet will not outperform ideal conditions versus its self), but nice try.

 

I've already conceded that the build is not suited for high end gameplay.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[The Boz.2038]

17 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I've already conceded that the build is not suited for high end gameplay.

So what problem are we still trying to fix?

Mech is not hogging the DPS spotlight. Does nothing in speedruns. Open world is irrelevant, lol. Story even more so. Nobody is kicking anyone from organized parties because "bring mech or else", the way it was for other "problematic" builds previously; people just keep showing up with mechs because of inertia/existing gear/comfiness. 
What's the issue?

[Kodama.6453]

52 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

So what problem are we still trying to fix?

Mech is not hogging the DPS spotlight. Does nothing in speedruns. Open world is irrelevant, lol. Story even more so. Nobody is kicking anyone from organized parties because "bring mech or else", the way it was for other "problematic" builds previously; people just keep showing up with mechs because of inertia/existing gear/comfiness. 
What's the issue?

Seems @Cyninja.2954's primary problem is that the spec has a pet which deals part of it's damage automatically...

Which can't get fixed without completely reworking mechanist from the ground. Because it is a pet focused spec and that will always have some "passive gameplay". That is the exact reason why so many people were opposed to getting an AI based elite spec for the engineer to begin with, because history has taught us repeatedly that people will hate AI pet classes if they are anywhere remotely to viable.

So yeah, happens exactly as people expected. Mechanist is allowed to be viable, which means that it is a more passive gameplay because of the pet being viable. And others hate it for that reason.

We have seen this many times in this game already. Some people will just be satisfied when mech is nerfed that much that using it counts as griefing. Anything less and people will keep crying for nerfs, because they can't stand the thought of an AI pet class being usable.

[freakcoco.4287]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

So what problem are we still trying to fix?

Mech is not hogging the DPS spotlight. Does nothing in speedruns. Open world is irrelevant, lol. Story even more so. Nobody is kicking anyone from organized parties because "bring mech or else", the way it was for other "problematic" builds previously; people just keep showing up with mechs because of inertia/existing gear/comfiness. 
What's the issue?

There has only one problem for me,  too many mecha hater, and I don't know how to fix it.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

So what problem are we still trying to fix?

Mech is not hogging the DPS spotlight. Does nothing in speedruns. Open world is irrelevant, lol. Story even more so. Nobody is kicking anyone from organized parties because "bring mech or else", the way it was for other "problematic" builds previously; people just keep showing up with mechs because of inertia/existing gear/comfiness. 
What's the issue?

 

I didn't say there was an issue. I simply don't concede to the "mech is terrible" argument.

 

The elite is fine where it's at imo. It's neither to weak nor to strong. I might disagree with its represenation currently still, but even that has become more healthy overall.

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I simply don't concede to the "mech is terrible" argument.

But that's not true, is it.
Thread and thread again, you are there defending the mech nerfs. It's not just the "mech is terrible" that you take offense at. You are there to defend and explain every mech nerf, no matter the context. You seem to still see value in mech nerfs.

Is it fine where it's at right now? Was it fine a few weeks ago, before the mandatory leash that literally erased playstyles and uniqueness from the build? 

[Corvolupo.5708]

I've tried the p mech when eod First came out, and It was terribile DMG wise and gameplay fun wise, than anet buff the power coefficents, rifle rework came and suddently... It was fun, very fun but also broken as hell and so kitten Easy e no effort. Now, insted of keeping the flavour and the flow and Nerf the DMG or adjust the mechanic, anet decided to Just erase the flow of It... Now, even if they pump up the DMG in another patch i will not really care, cause Hybrid, condi, support, and holo Power, scrapper Hybrid, Power, Quick, are all more enjoyable and usefull overall. Sorry for my english btw.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

But that's not true, is it.
Thread and thread again, you are there defending the mech nerfs. It's not just the "mech is terrible" that you take offense at. You are there to defend and explain every mech nerf, no matter the context. You seem to still see value in mech nerfs.

Is it fine where it's at right now? Was it fine a few weeks ago, before the mandatory leash that literally erased playstyles and uniqueness from the build? 

Yes, I was arguing for the mech nerfs so far (or rather I was even arguing for changes which would address some of the issues without nerfing). Please point me to where I said it requires more nerfs currently? It might see more nerfs, which I have explained with its representation, but I certainly didn't advocate for more and most certainly not in this thread.

So yes, the spec was busted in the past, even against all nay sayers on the forum. Just as how the spec currently is not dead, again disagreeing with all the doom and gloom forum crowd.

That mandatory leash is a better solution than just erasing the spec overall. Could there have been better solutions? Sure, I would have preferred the removal of the auto cast though I was never expecting the developers to move back on that functionality. So yes, the leash was necessary or other measures would have been required.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[voltaicbore.8012]

I really think all ANet needed to do was roll out similarly busted LI builds for maybe 4 other classes, and this all would have blown over. If people had similar (or perhaps even slightly more busted) LI specs to choose from, we might have less of the mech eyesore, and the overrepresentation would have been less of an issue.

That said "roll out similarly busted LI builds" for at least half of the other classes would be a pretty huge undertaking, due to the sheer amount of stuff they'd probably break along the way in terms of spvp and wvw balance. As such, I think mech was always doomed to this fate - not unusable, but a lot of people hate how bad it feels compared to its apex.

[Infusion.7149]

11 hours ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

 

It's not a benchmark

Rifle mech got nerf really hard , and it is death , it cannot compare with other low intensity build .

 

 

holosmith

 

 

Yeh, no.

You're not using the right traits and using impact instead of air sigil. The video I posted also is not even mine so it isn't biased like yours is.

P.S. the proper fix would have always been to turn off autocasts on mech not the changes done to Mechanical Genius

Edited December 16, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Zzik.5873]

I just want my 3x burst rifle back. I dont care about those winning number nerd. I want a good looking animation, not this slowmotion scuff warrior rifle one.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 hours ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

I just want my 3x burst rifle back. I dont care about those winning number nerd. I want a good looking animation, not this slowmotion scuff warrior rifle one.

One thing I can agree with here is that rifles are universally bad in this game. The Engineer rifle was a step in the right direction, and they should've changed Warrior and Thief rifle to match.

 

The animation was broken with Quickness though (especially on Charr with their tails), and I'm not sure how they could fix it. This was their reasoning for changing it, because it made your character look like a sprite with only a few frames of animation due to how quick it had to cycle through them.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[iNaddict.8021]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:19 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

Seems @Cyninja.2954's primary problem is that the spec has a pet which deals part of it's damage automatically...

Which can't get fixed without completely reworking mechanist from the ground. Because it is a pet focused spec and that will always have some "passive gameplay". That is the exact reason why so many people were opposed to getting an AI based elite spec for the engineer to begin with, because history has taught us repeatedly that people will hate AI pet classes if they are anywhere remotely to viable.

So yeah, happens exactly as people expected. Mechanist is allowed to be viable, which means that it is a more passive gameplay because of the pet being viable. And others hate it for that reason.

We have seen this many times in this game already. Some people will just be satisfied when mech is nerfed that much that using it counts as griefing. Anything less and people will keep crying for nerfs, because they can't stand the thought of an AI pet class being usable.

 

yeah.. does feel like that doesnt it..

 

i still think it a good thing that people who doesnt like a little a little difficulty could gravitate to the mech .. everyone else could stick to their preferred spec..

 

hopefully no more nerfs.. i do miss the machine gun though..

Edited December 18, 2022 by iNaddict.8021

[Alcatraznc.3869]

On 12/17/2022 at 2:24 AM, Corvolupo.5708 said:

I've tried the p mech when eod First came out, and It was terribile DMG wise and gameplay fun wise, than anet buff the power coefficents, rifle rework came and suddently... It was fun, very fun but also broken as hell and so kitten Easy e no effort. Now, insted of keeping the flavour and the flow and Nerf the DMG or adjust the mechanic, anet decided to Just erase the flow of It... Now, even if they pump up the DMG in another patch i will not really care, cause Hybrid, condi, support, and holo Power, scrapper Hybrid, Power, Quick, are all more enjoyable and usefull overall. Sorry for my english btw.

 

The only time PMech was OP was when it could do 37k with minimal input.

 

Up until few patches ago I was fine with the small Mechanist adjustement in PvE, because it only targetted Mechanist. A small nerf on the mech coef ? No big deal. But then Anet kept nerfing and nerfing Mechanist, first to a point where Mechanist was right in at the border between support DPS and DPS spec. But even at that moment, Mechanist was honestly fine for a LI spec. People who wanted to play those piano build were doing more damage than PMech and support still dealt less damage than PMech.

 

But no Anet had to make the Mech even more garbage to manage but on top of that started to nerf core engineer stuff, starting with Medikit and Elixir kit and recently rifle. 

 

Of course everything I said above was only regarding PvE. I knew from the beginning that Mechanist would be garbage for any kind of PvP content but I didnt think Anet could make a spec that is so trash you are actually griefing your team by bringing it into a match. It is only decent in noob game but I dont know why Anet even bother in these tier considering everything can be OP when facing noobs

[Sobx.1758]

On 12/16/2022 at 6:04 AM, freakcoco.4287 said:

 

It's not a benchmark

Rifle mech got nerf really hard , and it is death , it cannot compare with other low intensity build .

 

 

holosmith

I don't know what you think you're showing here, but on mechanist all you did was set up a turret and then press 0 keys. Do the same on holo? 🤔

On 12/16/2022 at 9:28 AM, freakcoco.4287 said:

Rifle power mech is underperforming

Not really.

 

On 12/17/2022 at 6:52 AM, Makuragee.3058 said:

I just want my 3x burst rifle back. I dont care about those winning number nerd. I want a good looking animation, not this slowmotion scuff warrior rifle one.

Current animation is better than the caricature we had before this change, glad it's gone.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Hindenburg.3415]

On 12/15/2022 at 11:26 PM, Batalix.2873 said:

As long as it does "good enough" DPS it will always be favored by a pretty sizeable population of players who are lazy, and prioritize "ease of play" over engagement or skill.

 

Or people just play one class because heal mech is meta right now ( and not easy to play ) ,  quick scrapper and power holo is a thing again, and mech is giga chad in open world and really useful for someone who wants to do solo bounties.

 

For me biggest problem with pMech is not difficulty but nearly perfect dps application because of invincible mech and pew-pew rifle while other classes have to deal with timings , positioning , mechanics.

Something from low difficulty , high damage , perfect application had to go.

Dunno if devs did a good job I don't play pMech I play condi in OW.

 

[Hemi.5267]

20 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Current animation is better than the caricature we had before this change, glad it's gone.

 

Ahahahahaha........ no.