Can anet undo rifle chance, it feel awefull to play

[Sobx.1758]

Rifle feels -and is- k, I hope they won't undo the changes to that ridiculous caricature of machine gun with spasmic aa animation.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I like how the topic is about rifle and yet every argument against the undo of the rifle nerf is about Mechanist.

 

So far I havent seen a single proof whether it is a detailed screenshot or a vid about core Engineer, Scrapper or Holosmith beating some top tier DPS using rifle alone

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

I like how the topic is about rifle and yet every argument against the undo of the rifle nerf is about Mechanist.

 

So far I havent seen a single proof whether it is a detailed screenshot or a vid about core Engineer, Scrapper or Holosmith beating some top tier DPS using rifle alone

Won't go through every comment again to make sure it is, but for one... the post directly above yours isn't about mechanist at all. So... not really. 😄

I don't know what "beating top tier dps" has to do with anything here. I'm still using rifle in many encounters also on scrapper simply because it's more convenient and it easly does enough dps while not caring about potential consistent need of movement or any aoes, as opposed to melee weapons. That's also why I've started my previous post with "Rifle feels -and is- k". Not "rifle on mechanist", but simply "rifle".

Edited December 27, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Kodama.6453]

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Won't go through every comment again to make sure it is, but for one... the post directly above yours isn't about mechanist at all. So... not really. 😄

I don't know what "beating top tier dps" has to do with anything here. I'm still using rifle in many encounters also on scrapper simply because it's more convenient and it easly does enough dps while not caring about potential consistent need of movement or any aoes, as opposed to melee weapons. That's also why I've started my previous post with "Rifle feels -and is- k". Not "rifle on mechanist", but simply "rifle".

I would be fine with the change to rifle if it really would be a neutral change dps wise for PvE like they advertised, since they specifically mentioned in the patch notes that the cast time doesn't change.

But that has not been reality, they did something to the cast time of the skill (adding more aftercast or something), which ended up nerfing the damage of it in PvE.

And they definitely have to buff the coefficients for the shots in PvP, too. That the rifle auto attack deals less power damage than the auto attack of elixir gun and less damage than the old hip shot before the rework is unacceptable.

Conclusion: Rifle is currently definitely not "k".

[Corvolupo.5708]

9 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I would be fine with the change to rifle if it really would be a neutral change dps wise for PvE like they advertised, since they specifically mentioned in the patch notes that the cast time doesn't change.

But that has not been reality, they did something to the cast time of the skill (adding more aftercast or something), which ended up nerfing the damage of it in PvE.

And they definitely have to buff the coefficients for the shots in PvP, too. That the rifle auto attack deals less power damage than the auto attack of elixir gun and less damage than the old hip shot before the rework is unacceptable.

Conclusion: Rifle is currently definitely not "k".

Pretty much this... Oh well let's go back to my 10 years old 5 texture mortar for some long range filler.

[Sobx.1758]

50 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I would be fine with the change to rifle if it really would be a neutral change dps wise for PvE like they advertised, since they specifically mentioned in the patch notes that the cast time doesn't change.

But that has not been reality, they did something to the cast time of the skill (adding more aftercast or something), which ended up nerfing the damage of it in PvE.

And they definitely have to buff the coefficients for the shots in PvP, too. That the rifle auto attack deals less power damage than the auto attack of elixir gun and less damage than the old hip shot before the rework is unacceptable.

Conclusion: Rifle is currently definitely not "k".

It is k, especially in the context of what some of the people talk about here (including OP). If you want to talk "balancing between the modes", that's a different thing.

You understand what most people are talking about in this thread, right? Because between OP complaining about animation itself and people going off at pve performance, including posting pve golem vids, it's really far from drawing conclusions based on pvp like you seem to be doing here. On the other hand, I also said nothing about it being nerfed or not in pve and simply the fact that something was possibly nerfed doesn't automatically make it "not k" (which is what you seem to be talking about in the second sentence of your post).

 

Hopefully this time you can address what I actually wrote in the post you've quoted though:

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Won't go through every comment again to make sure it is, but for one... the post directly above yours isn't about mechanist at all. So... not really. 😄

I don't know what "beating top tier dps" has to do with anything here. I'm still using rifle in many encounters also on scrapper simply because it's more convenient and it easly does enough dps while not caring about potential consistent need of movement or any aoes, as opposed to melee weapons. That's also why I've started my previous post with "Rifle feels -and is- k". Not "rifle on mechanist", but simply "rifle".

Is anything here incorrect? Is anything about that changed by what you've just wrote in your post? I don't see it, so which part and how? (and that question includes the apparent claim "if it was nerfed, it's not k" you've just attempted to make, since that's just not true by itself)

Edited December 27, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You understand what most people are talking about in this thread, right? Because between OP complaining about animation itself and people going off at pve performance, including posting pve golem vids, it's really far from drawing conclusions based on pvp like you seem to be doing here. On the other hand, I also said nothing about it being nerfed or not in pve and simply the fact that something was possibly nerfed doesn't automatically make it "not k" (which is what you seem to be talking about in the second sentence of your post).

Anet advertised this change as a net neutral change for PvE when it comes to dps, which is not the case. So I think for all purposes, what's currently going on with rifle should be considered a bug (intended was a neutral change, what happened isn't because the skill is shooting slower than intended).

This also feeds into why the animation feels bad for many players. Because it is shooting even slower then it is intended to, according to what Anet has stated to be their goal in the change logs.

I personally would consider a bugged skill to be target for revision, yeah. If their intention was different to what happened and people have voiced that this feels bad, I think it should get changed. You personally might be fine with it being even slower than intended, but that does not go for everyone.

So I think the complaint that the auto attack feels too slow right now is valid. Because even if it was intended to be slower after the change, it is even slower then they wanted it to be.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[soul.9651]

3 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

I like how the topic is about rifle and yet every argument against the undo of the rifle nerf is about Mechanist.

 

So far I havent seen a single proof whether it is a detailed screenshot or a vid about core Engineer, Scrapper or Holosmith beating some top tier DPS using rifle alone

Because noone has a problem with those, if mech didnt exist then go on buff rifle as much as you want. 

[Sobx.1758]

58 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Anet advertised this change as a net neutral change for PvE when it comes to dps, which is not the case. So I think for all purposes, what's currently going on with rifle should be considered a bug (intended was a neutral change, what happened isn't because the skill is shooting slower than intended).

I understand that's what you wrote, but I don't understand why you are typing this in response to my post? This is not relevant to anything written here?

58 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

This also feeds into why the animation feels bad for many players. Because it is shooting even slower then it is intended to, according to what Anet has stated to be their goal in the change logs.

I personally would consider a bugged skill to be target for revision, yeah. If their intention was different to what happened and people have voiced that this feels bad, I think it should get changed. You personally might be fine with it being even slower than intended, but that does not go for everyone.

So I think the complaint that the auto attack feels too slow right now is valid. Because even if it was intended to be slower after the change, it is even slower then they wanted it to be.

Maybe. Although based on some of the rather overdramatic posts I'veread, I think it might be more about those players getting used to the awful machine gun animation and now they refuse to play it after the change so they don't even have the opportunity to get used to the new one. If they/you believe it's a bug then maybe it would be better to make a thread in a bug subforum instead of repeating "change the animation" and/or "buff the rifle"? Because there's a difference between these and "fixing a [potential] bug".

Edited December 27, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Infusion.7149]

7 hours ago, Tammuz.7361 said:

 

 

That was with autocast rifle and mech skils.

 

Just auto attack on rifle (literally could walk AFK to go get a sandwich and put out over 25k dps)

Just a FYI you can still do this more or less.

From 3 weeks ago.

Note the rifle does 16K DPS. It's more than many ranged weapons (typically you get 10-15K), but not overtly overpowered on its own. You can get 16K or so on the buffed soulbeast axe for example (while flanking).

The benchmark from MicroHard had rifle at 13K in July and ~16K in August.

So this is "much ado about nothing" as the idiom goes.

Mechanical Genius on the other hand is a janky solution when Arenanet could have removed autocasts. Why they did not do that is beyond me.

[Gendalfs.7521]

Please tell me this. If Rifle mechanist goes full power rifle it does 24k dps (google snowcrows). If I get right this is full power spec.

Power Deadeye does 44k dps with the same rifle. WTF are we speaking about?

100% difference in dmg.

Explain please.

p.s. I know Condi Mech does much better, but I play power for now.

[Infusion.7149]

41 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Please tell me this. If Rifle mechanist goes full power rifle it does 24k dps (google snowcrows). If I get right this is full power spec.

Power Deadeye does 44k dps with the same rifle. WTF are we speaking about?

100% difference in dmg.

Explain please.

p.s. I know Condi Mech does much better, but I play power for now.

Links?

Pretty sure 44K with daggers on deadeye ; power mechanist is pulling ~34K with an actual "rotation" last I checked unless you are going afk and not using the mech at all at which point you should just play core engineer.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Kuma.1503]

45 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Please tell me this. If Rifle mechanist goes full power rifle it does 24k dps (google snowcrows). If I get right this is full power spec.

Power Deadeye does 44k dps with the same rifle. WTF are we speaking about?

100% difference in dmg.

Explain please.

p.s. I know Condi Mech does much better, but I play power for now.

I think you're looking at power alacrity mechanist. 

That being said, it only out performs specter (without allies) so it's effectively the lowest support DPS in the game, not the second lowest. 

Allies are pretty much a given in group content. 

 

As an asside, I'm not sure why power alac mech doesn't run mace. It does more damage than rifle, and it makes the alac generation more consistent. Nades can be used as a ranged filler just like we do on Holo/Scrapper. 

If you were really intent on min/maxing, mace also lets you drop concentration which will improve damge over rifle even further. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I think you're looking at power alacrity mechanist. 

That being said, it only out performs specter (without allies) so it's effectively the lowest support DPS in the game, not the second lowest. 

Allies are pretty much a given in group content. 

Power renegade alac and power tempest alac are both around 24-25K and require far more buttons to play though. They aren't listed because nobody really asks for those ; likewise power alacrity untamed does more damage on paper (and due to be nerfed due to Fervent Force reliance rather than boon duration gear) but who asks for that?

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Please tell me this. If Rifle mechanist goes full power rifle it does 24k dps (google snowcrows). If I get right this is full power spec.

Power Deadeye does 44k dps with the same rifle. WTF are we speaking about?

100% difference in dmg.

Explain please.

p.s. I know Condi Mech does much better, but I play power for now.

If it's so great "with the same rifle" then why aren't you just playing it instead? 🤔

And power mechanist with 24k, sure.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[soul.9651]

2 hours ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Please tell me this. If Rifle mechanist goes full power rifle it does 24k dps (google snowcrows). If I get right this is full power spec.

Power Deadeye does 44k dps with the same rifle. WTF are we speaking about?

100% difference in dmg.

Explain please.

p.s. I know Condi Mech does much better, but I play power for now.

Show me the logs u doing that 44k. You wont. Plus if its so op why you wont see any deadeyes in ANY strike, fract or raid cms? Because its not a pmech where any average joe can get even a close numbers. Meanwhile you can turn off your dam monitor and u would still reach the bench numbers on rifle mech..

Edited December 27, 2022 by soul.9651

[Kuma.1503]

  

16 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Show me the logs u doing that 44k. You wont. Plus if its so op why you wont see any deadeyes in ANY strike, fract or raid cms? Because its not a pmech where any average joe can get even a close numbers. Meanwhile you can turn of your dam monitor and u would still reach the bench numbers on rifle mech..

Agree with this, but not with the reasoning behind the argument. 

The part I agree with: DPS Deadeye struggles to hit its benchmark in real encounters due to a variety of factors. Mechanist does not. It's rotation (more of a skill priority list than set rotation) is both easy to execute and highly practical in real encounters. 

The part I disagree with: If i's so OP why is no one playing it? 

Playrate =/= strength. If you've played games like League of Legends, we have much greater access to data than we have in Gw2. We can track stats like playrate, winrate, item pickrate for each champion, how often each champion wins each matchup, factor by which role that champion is in, ect. 

Because of this, we're able to track the overall winrate of champions in comparison to how often they're picked, and what we find, very commonly, is that champions can be extremely powerful while still holding a very low pickrate. 

Using my main as a prime example. I have 2 mains in league of legends, one of them is Aurelion Sol. He's extremely unpopular and has been since his release, but he remains an extremely powerful pick in the hands of the people who use him. Riot games even challeneged the narrative that only his hardcore mains succeed with him, by stating that  even people picking him up for the first time find a high level of success with him. 

This is why he got nerfed multiple times in spite of his sub 1% pickrate. 

 

The same is true in Gw2. A spec can be very powerful, even broken, but never get picked, and part of this comes from this flawed mindset that is held by so many people in this community. "If I don't see others playing it, it must be bad". This is not the case. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[soul.9651]

25 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

A spec can be very powerful, even broken, but never get picked, and part of this comes from this flawed mindset that is held by so many people in this community. "If I don't see others playing it, it must be bad". This is not the case. 

Some people think that (flawed mindset) but like you mentioned others realise that those numbers arent realistic and decide just not to play the spec

Edited December 27, 2022 by soul.9651

[Bookah pls.9352]

On 12/26/2022 at 11:57 AM, soul.9651 said:

Sure lets go back to 9/10 mech squad days, what a wonderful time that was (not)

Hello friend, buffing rifle and buffing mechanist can be two entirely different things, here's a non rifle version of your strawman for your own displeasure.

 

We just want rifle to not feel awful to use, we're not asking for mechanist buffs, rifle is straight up worse now than it was pre rework in some game modes.

[soul.9651]

7 hours ago, Bookah pls.9352 said:

Hello friend, buffing rifle and buffing mechanist can be two entirely different things, here's a non rifle version of your strawman for your own displeasure.

 

We just want rifle to not feel awful to use, we're not asking for mechanist buffs, rifle is straight up worse now than it was pre rework in some game modes.

So you wont mind then if with rifle buffs there is a mech nerf to make sure the story wont repeat itself, good to know. Like i said idc about other specs if mech didnt exist you can buff rifle for your other builds as much as you want.

[Hemi.5267]

I rotate rifle and gun builds since a few month's. It's what brought me back to GW2. Love the Deadeye, and the mech build was a blast. I even used it without the bot most of the time. It had a flow to it.

 

Let me say this:

 

I do not care about damage nerfs to the class.

 

Nerf it to hell and back, just stay away from that animation! The animation made the rifle fun to use. 

[Bookah pls.9352]

3 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

So you wont mind then if with rifle buffs there is a mech nerf to make sure the story wont repeat itself, good to know. Like i said idc about other specs if mech didnt exist you can buff rifle for your other builds as much as you want.

We are all cool with mech nerfs if rifle gets buffed, that's kinda already been pointed out on this thread by a few people.

Like that mace video i showed you, that can't be done anymore despite the fact mace has never been touched and still couldn't be done if they actually even buffed mace, simply because mechanist itself was nerfed, not the weapon, but it clearly demonstrates that the whole lul afk mechanist op thing was not purely down to rifle being buffed. 

[Corvolupo.5708]

Don't care much about Power mech nerfs but the rifle... God please revert this boring iteration and polish the 3 shots animation, kitten It was fun to play in OW, or Just rework the weapon at this point. (I am for the shotgun side of It).

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Bookah pls.9352 said:

Hello friend, buffing rifle and buffing mechanist can be two entirely different things, here's a non rifle version of your strawman for your own displeasure.

 

We just want rifle to not feel awful to use, we're not asking for mechanist buffs, rifle is straight up worse now than it was pre rework in some game modes.

So basically make the aa slightly faster (while still not turning it back into the machine gun abomination it was before) and pull back the number just a bit so the dps remains like it currently is?

 

e: well, see, some of you talk about animation and how it feels while the others just want a buff 😄

Edited December 28, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Corvolupo.5708]

35 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So basically make the aa slightly faster (while still not turning it back into the machine gun abomination it was before) and pull back the number just a bit so the dps remains like it currently is?

 

e: well, see, some of you talk about animation and how it feels while the others just want a buff 😄

You see, It Is about the feeling of it and feelings are subjectives, however, the majority prefer the old 3 shots iteration and i understand this perfectly. The animation was... Well, not good, especialy with quickness on, but now the engi rifle Is Just a boring, generic (and bugged currently) Power weapon and almost a meme outside pve. You talk about abominations but again it's Just a point of view. I for One have Always laughed my a** off watching how Mesmers use a greatsword.