Soo-Won has nothing to do with the “horrors from the deep”

[Ellon.4316]

In the olden days there was a wizard lord of great power called Lord Odran who opened up some portals to the mist and used these as a free waypoint service. One of these portals can be found in the tomb of primeval kings the other is in the battle isles. Now Odran is long gone but those portals remain and work both ways.

The Zaishen order guarded these portals and protects Tyria from “horrors from the deep” “forces of darkness” (according to the wiki) since forever. Now enter Zhaitan with some massive tsunami causing Soo-Won to leave the unending ocean to protect Kaineng. But guess which place was destroyed/evacuated during that same event, it’s one with a portal that had to be guarded. With that portal unguarded demons popped out which led to the quaggan and largos fleeing the place. I could be wrong but I don’t think Soo-Won had anything to do with the horrors from the deep, her leaving just coincides with the Zaishen order leaving these isles.

Side note: For living world/expansion the battle isles gives a link to the mists/“horrors from the deep”. The zaishen order which had their home base on these isles is originally a Canthan guild. It is a temple to Balthazar so there is even a tie in to the human gods. There are quite a few links to this single location that i would be surprised if we don’t go there. Plus as a bonus these isles are somewhat in the middle of the world map so it’s easily accessible from Cantha or Kryta.

Side note 2: This theory also allows Anet to drop dragon magic completely for the next part of the story.

[Kalavier.1097]

The problem is the horrors of the deep emerged from the Krait held areas, or even deeper, and drove the krait outward, which made them overrun the Quaggan kingdoms and destroy those, which made all of the above end up swimming toward Tyria in a steady stream. The battle isles isn't in the deep ocean.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The problem is the horrors of the deep emerged from the Krait held areas, or even deeper, and drove the krait outward, which made them overrun the Quaggan kingdoms and destroy those, which made all of the above end up swimming toward Tyria in a steady stream. The battle isles isn't in the deep ocean.

While true, as the DSM takes over larger parts of the deeps its going to have to come closer and closer to the surface to keep spreading.

Not to mention, most living things can't survive in the deep ocean due to pressure, its unlikely we we're ever going to go super deep into the oceans to fight it in the first place.

The Battle Isles would make a good place for it to be lured, or rise up near, for Anet to make a map involving fighting it.

[Kalavier.1097]

11 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

While true, as the DSM takes over larger parts of the deeps its going to have to come closer and closer to the surface to keep spreading.

Not to mention, most living things can't survive in the deep ocean due to pressure, its unlikely we we're ever going to go super deep into the oceans to fight it in the first place.

The Battle Isles would make a good place for it to be lured, or rise up near, for Anet to make a map involving fighting it.

I mean, including the battle isles as part of fighting some of those monsters is one thing, and a fairly good option for using land. Plus we could have the ruins of the old Zaishen ranger pet zoo and a bunch of tamable animals! 😄

Implying the lack of Zaishen presence on the battle isles is the case of the Quaggan's Kingdom destruction and the mass migration of the Krait is another.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

This is a good theory but it ties too much into an already finished plotline (the Zaishen and so on), and we know from recent Living World and expansions that the devs have tired of drawing out old stories.

 

I think its more likely that Soo-Won had a dragon champion long before Kuunavang and lost control of it at some point due to her pacifist nature. This could also explain why Soo-Won didn't have any minions as control of them had likely been stolen from her, and this champion could be quite powerful like Glint and could've easily been confused for being the deep sea dragon by the lesser races who don't know any better.

 

I love the Quaggan but they worship Mellagan (confirmed to be Soo-Won) at sunken statues of Melandru. They're not exactly the brightest bunch and neither are the Krait.

 

Pretty much the only reliable Intel we could get would be from Largos, and we know how that goes.

 

As for survivability in the deep ocean, just the water in Frostgorge Sound is _extremely_ deep without using a metal diving  suit, (its actually a wonder we don't take damage) so its unlikely we could ever go deeper without some kind of protection, and it wouldn't be much farther than now without outright having a submarine mount.

 

Remember, the game world isn't to scale by about 4:1, so the area near the Quaggan guild rush in Frostgorge Sound would actually be about four times deeper... with just an aquabreather.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508

[KnightofPhoenix.3679]

I think it was more or less confirmed that Soo-Won is not the terror in the deep that drove all these aquatic races to the surface.  And I have high hopes that this threat will be the centrepiece of the next Living World (cross fingers). 

It's an opportunity to have a threat that's not a dragon and to introduce Eldritch elements (for who can scare away the Krait and the Largos...).  We can visit old Kaineng and then somehow explore the unending ocean (I like the idea of a jade submarine mount which can be a new mastery track).  

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

20 hours ago, Ellon.4316 said:

-snip OP-

The main issue aside from what @Kalavier.1097 said about the horrors originating from the ocean depths is that the "forces of darkness" talked about with the Zaishen is technically just a generic "evil enemies" kind of thing. When it is ever used to reference a specific enemy, it's referring to Abaddon's forces - demons, Titans, and Margonites - most of whom were wiped out in Nightfall. It might also be used to refer to Menzies' forces, but I can't think of any specific example off-hand.
There is one line of dialogue from 2010 Wintersday in which Priest of Balthazar (who may or may not be Zaishen) references darkness coming, but that's most likely just relating to the Elder Dragons, as a lot of "future darkness" hints in Beyond era writing was just about the Elder Dragons and GW2 main plot.

In either case, we see the dark forces the Zaishen fight in GW1, and it's pretty much just the Abaddon-led alliance between Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies. And I don't think any of them are capable of pushing out the krait, quaggan, and karka or give the largos a run for their money. Not with Abaddon dead and his forces decimated.

15 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Not to mention, most living things can't survive in the deep ocean due to pressure, its unlikely we we're ever going to go super deep into the oceans to fight it in the first place.

To be fair, I doubt this would actually be an issue actually brought up. We can already swim to pretty deep depths with zero scuba gear equipment and feel no hindrance mechanically, and aside from a one-off line in EoD, it's never really brought up. In fact, the immense pressure difference should make it physically impossible for krait and quaggan to be able to so hastily surface as they did.

So either Tyria's underwater pressure functions fundamentally differently than Earth's, or there's the solution of "magic did it" that already long existed.

6 hours ago, KnightofPhoenix.3679 said:

I think it was more or less confirmed that Soo-Won is not the terror in the deep that drove all these aquatic races to the surface.  And I have high hopes that this threat will be the centrepiece of the next Living World (cross fingers).

I think Ellon meant that Soo-Won wasn't holding the horrors back, as is the current leading theory, and was presenting a theory for whom the horrors are / are from.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Ellon.4316]

16 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I think Ellon meant that Soo-Won wasn't holding the horrors back

Correct 🙂

 

Multiple mentions that this theory doesn’t make sense concerning the forces coming from the deep and i get that point. Cant explain that one. On the other hand Soo-Won only references the void when talking about her role in all of this. She could have at least said something about some horror in the unending ocean but didn’t. That is why i don’t think Soo-Won knew about this let alone it being one of her own dragon minions.

For the story this theory still allows Anet to do whatever they want, Zaishen are not really involved in the story. Them not being involved is the reason the story could go this way 😜. 

Of course the DSM could be something else entirely. 

[draxynnic.3719]

19 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The main issue aside from what @Kalavier.1097 said about the horrors originating from the ocean depths is that the "forces of darkness" talked about with the Zaishen is technically just a generic "evil enemies" kind of thing. When it is ever used to reference a specific enemy, it's referring to Abaddon's forces - demons, Titans, and Margonites - most of whom were wiped out in Nightfall. It might also be used to refer to Menzies' forces, but I can't think of any specific example off-hand.

I would note here that even with Abaddon's defeat, it's pretty clear that demons are still very much present in the Mists. Abaddon might have concentrated a lot of them under his banner, and we probably won't see Margonites or Titans again as any significant force, but there are several instances and events in GW2 that show that demons remain a significant threat in the Mists. They just don't have a unifying leader (that we know of) any more.

 

If there's a portal to one of the nastier regions of the Mists, that could well represent a serious threat to the area. Imagine if the Shadow Behemoth was able to just keep on summoning more and more demons from the Underworld.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

17 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I would note here that even with Abaddon's defeat, it's pretty clear that demons are still very much present in the Mists. Abaddon might have concentrated a lot of them under his banner, and we probably won't see Margonites or Titans again as any significant force, but there are several instances and events in GW2 that show that demons remain a significant threat in the Mists. They just don't have a unifying leader (that we know of) any more.

 

If there's a portal to one of the nastier regions of the Mists, that could well represent a serious threat to the area. Imagine if the Shadow Behemoth was able to just keep on summoning more and more demons from the Underworld.

True, there's still a presence, but demons aren't really a large scale threat without Abaddon anymore. The biggest threat we have post-Nightfall is as you noted, the Shadow Behemoth. And based on the teases made before Hall of Chains, it may be simply a minion of Dhuum - and even if not and it's just mere coincidence that minions of Dhuum now invade at the same time and place as the Shadow Behemoth, it's not even remotely close to a threat capable of forcing the krait out of their homeland let alone the rest of the stuff. So I would hardly call that a "significant threat in the Mists". The only other time demons were a big threat was under Kanaxai, and that's on par to the Shadow Behemoth - something the krait would easily take care of.

It is pretty much on similar level of threat to an overpopulation of saurians and wyverns in the Maguuma.

 

So unless the horrors happens to be Menzies... or think it's at all related to what the Zaishen were dealing with. And if it is demons with a suddenly superpowered and organized leader with an army of demons behind it, I would imagine the demons come from a different spot rather than the Heroes' Ascent portal.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[draxynnic.3719]

I think there's a big 'that we know of' to what you're saying there. Demons in GW1 were not a significant threat to Tyria until they were...because Varesh started inviting them in. Meanwhile, we get some strong indications that the god realms are pretty susceptible to being flooded with demons again.

I think it's plausible that there could be some significant demonic incursion in the depths and we wouldn't necessarily know. Even, and perhaps especially, if it's leaderless - that might be enough to, say, force the krait to clear out if a rift was near their capital and they couldn't close it, but none of the demons are reaching the continental shores because they're aimlessly spreading out in all directions rather than going in other directions.

It could be something else, of course. But assuming that they're just not a credible threat, due to lacking a leader or some other reason, could be like the Ascalonians assuming that the charr weren't a credible threat in the 1050s. Especially if ArenaNet is considering bringing the Utopia lore back into play.

[maxwelgm.4315]

A single portal is an unlikely source because both Krait and Karka were driven out of the deepest reaches of the sea - and it's unlikely to imagine they were close to each other given the ultra territorialism of both species. This threat would need to have had a very large coverage, though demons would indeed fit the "twisted creatures" description from all the lore.

It's a "shame" though that this was clearly set up to be related to dragons and now they would have to do something else with it to "fix" things. The Karka are said to have lived since previous dragon cycles and therefore knew about the Risen threat, thus completely avoiding the Orrian shores when escaping the depths (presumably, from another dragon - or so we thought until EoD). The Leviathans from EoD however are implied, hinted at or at least believed by Canthans and the couple of Largos we find to be part of this group of "horros from the depths". They are not that different of a threat from Karka however and it's hard to imagine they would single handled drive away the Krait next to their precious obelisks. A dragon would be the best hypothesis until they decided to abandon the very clearly pre established thread - demons would be the "next best thing" but kind of lame and a single Zaishen portal wouldn't be as credible IMO.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

A single portal is an unlikely source because both Krait and Karka were driven out of the deepest reaches of the sea - and it's unlikely to imagine they were close to each other given the ultra territorialism of both species. This threat would need to have had a very large coverage, though demons would indeed fit the "twisted creatures" description from all the lore.

It's a "shame" though that this was clearly set up to be related to dragons and now they would have to do something else with it to "fix" things. The Karka are said to have lived since previous dragon cycles and therefore knew about the Risen threat, thus completely avoiding the Orrian shores when escaping the depths (presumably, from another dragon - or so we thought until EoD). The Leviathans from EoD however are implied, hinted at or at least believed by Canthans and the couple of Largos we find to be part of this group of "horros from the depths". They are not that different of a threat from Karka however and it's hard to imagine they would single handled drive away the Krait next to their precious obelisks. A dragon would be the best hypothesis until they decided to abandon the very clearly pre established thread - demons would be the "next best thing" but kind of lame and a single Zaishen portal wouldn't be as credible IMO.

I mean, people dug in and I think created too many ideas of what happened when it was always left vague and unclear.

We got told the Krait scattered, overwhelming the Quaggans before both of them reached the shores.

The Largos and Karka both remain in the deep oceans, with only a group of Karka breaching the surface at southsun and avoiding Orr, but hardly implied to be the majority of their species. The Largos however only have a few individuals up above water, with full implication their own civilization is still intact.

Since the very start, it has been assumed it was the dragon causing it, but it was never explicitly stated to be so. They left themselves full ability to change it up. For all we know, Soo-won could've simply had those deep sea monsters pacified under her control, and when she left they went wild.

One theory I've seen was that the Krait civilization was actually ontop of Soo-won's napping spot. Meaning that when she rushed out to reach Cantha after Kuunavang spoke to her, she ended up wrecking the obelisks/Krait capital with her movements. Then other deep sea creatures/monsters swarming into the weakened Krait areas ending up with chaos.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think there's a big 'that we know of' to what you're saying there. Demons in GW1 were not a significant threat to Tyria until they were...because Varesh started inviting them in. Meanwhile, we get some strong indications that the god realms are pretty susceptible to being flooded with demons again.

I think it's plausible that there could be some significant demonic incursion in the depths and we wouldn't necessarily know. Even, and perhaps especially, if it's leaderless - that might be enough to, say, force the krait to clear out if a rift was near their capital and they couldn't close it, but none of the demons are reaching the continental shores because they're aimlessly spreading out in all directions rather than going in other directions.

It could be something else, of course. But assuming that they're just not a credible threat, due to lacking a leader or some other reason, could be like the Ascalonians assuming that the charr weren't a credible threat in the 1050s. Especially if ArenaNet is considering bringing the Utopia lore back into play.

Demons were a threat before Varesh though, but only under the command of Dhuum, Menzies, Abaddon, or Kanaxai.
And those under Kanaxai weren't a comparable threat.

We do see demons unassociated with these groups or the Shadow Behemoth - for example, there's the jotun stones in Dredgehaunt Cliffs' skritt tunnels, or the fleshreaver cave near the Durmand Priory. Even the demons in the god realms after the Six left aren't that huge of a threat overall - they overpower weak souls, but even those that invaded the Sanctum due to a lapse in defense caused by Kormir's departure were driven out by S4E4.

This isn't to say "demons cannot be a credible threat without a leader". This is to say that whenever we see demons without a leader, they're not a credible threat - and even with leaders, they're not always a nation-destroying threat.

So is it possible? Certainly. But is it likely? Empirical evidence says not at all. Especially if we're talking about the threats specifically dealt with by the Zaishen, which was explicitly the three prime evils alliance of Dhuum, Menzies, and Abaddon.

 

My original point is about that last key thing - the "fighting the darkness" the Zaishen dealt with was about those three fallen/former/demigod beings and their forces. Not generic demons. And those threats are neutralized, so it isn't the undersea horrors.

3 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

A single portal is an unlikely source because both Krait and Karka were driven out of the deepest reaches of the sea - and it's unlikely to imagine they were close to each other given the ultra territorialism of both species. This threat would need to have had a very large coverage, though demons would indeed fit the "twisted creatures" description from all the lore.

Whatever the threat is (after retcons), it does have a singular source as the karka were only driven out recently. The undersea horrors - be it deep sea dragon as originally stated by devs, or the unknown force as retconned by EoD - has been spreading out from its point of origin.

So under the theory of it being Mists demons, it can easily be a single portal, but the forces do not localize at said portal.

3 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

The Leviathans from EoD however are implied, hinted at or at least believed by Canthans and the couple of Largos we find to be part of this group of "horros from the depths". They are not that different of a threat from Karka however and it's hard to imagine they would single handled drive away the Krait next to their precious obelisks.

My understanding was that the leviathans were being forced out from the depths as well, not being the force that drove things out. The lore I recall is saying that they came out of the ocean depths recently. Krait are well known to make leviathan sharks their pets, after all, so it's incredibly unlikely for the leviathans to be what pushed the krait out of their homes.

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I mean, people dug in and I think created too many ideas of what happened when it was always left vague and unclear.

We got told the Krait scattered, overwhelming the Quaggans before both of them reached the shores.

The Largos and Karka both remain in the deep oceans, with only a group of Karka breaching the surface at southsun and avoiding Orr, but hardly implied to be the majority of their species. The Largos however only have a few individuals up above water, with full implication their own civilization is still intact.

Since the very start, it has been assumed it was the dragon causing it, but it was never explicitly stated to be so. They left themselves full ability to change it up. For all we know, Soo-won could've simply had those deep sea monsters pacified under her control, and when she left they went wild.

Jeff Grubb and other devs outright stated back in 2010 that it was the deep sea dragon, and we even had hylek and quaggan NPCs saying it was dragons (never specifying which dragon though) that forced the quaggans and krait out. In 2012 with The Lost Shores, Matthew Medina confirmed that the karka avoided Orr "for the same reason" they left the unending ocean: dragon corruption.

 

There was no assumption by the playerbase. The details were lacking, but the details were always "here be dragons".

[Ellon.4316]

Could try to argue but you clearly know quite a bit more then I do about GW-lore 😉.

For me the biggest thing is that this theory gives is a way for some big-bad connected to the mist to be a possibility going forward with the story. Something that, at least to me, sounds more interesting than killing yet another dragon(minion). 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Ellon.4316 said:

Could try to argue but you clearly know quite a bit more then I do about GW-lore 😉.

Hey that's no reason to not discuss. Nobody knows everything. 🙂

2 hours ago, Ellon.4316 said:

For me the biggest thing is that this theory gives is a way for some big-bad connected to the mist to be a possibility going forward with the story. Something that, at least to me, sounds more interesting than killing yet another dragon(minion). 

There's another possibility for this, and it's quite direct too - even has a means to tie into core and Season 1 lore quite well: the krait Prophet.

Krait society is dark and fanatical. Led by their priesthood, the Oratuss, the krait follow an ancient doctrine handed down to them by their abyssal prophets and constantly foretell of the prophets' return. The krait religion is based on massive obelisks of a unique, dark stone that can be found exclusively and rarely on Tyria's ocean floors. The krait believe that each of these obelisks was raised upon the site of a krait prophet's ascension into a mystic world, a world beyond this one, where these nameless prophets are building an army great enough to eradicate all other species. One day, they will return and drown the surface of Tyria beneath one massive sea. The krait sacrifice slaves to show reverence to the prophets and to ensure that the prophets will have servants in their mystical "other world."

The pre-launch lore established that the krait Oratuss would alter the "religious texts" that only they know to suit their needs. Over hundreds of generations, even the truth of the Prophets would be altered. Who's to say the Prophets were originally allied with the krait as they believe? And it's easy to establish the "mystic world beyond this one" as being a realm in the Mists.

And then we have Season 1, which introduces to us that at least one of the krait obelisks marking "ascension points" of the prophets, but what if them being shattered actually summoned one? And if it shattered 50 years ago, before the fragments washed ashore on Tyria?

 

That said, there won't be any more stories about dragons. Even the devs got tired of it, so much so they just killed the last three back to back with minimal buildup. Which is kinda funny because Season 4 could have been the end of the Elder Dragon plot for quite some time as Jormag and Primordus were asleep, and the DSD was inactive.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Ellon.4316 said:

For me the biggest thing is that this theory gives is a way for some big-bad connected to the mist to be a possibility going forward with the story. Something that, at least to me, sounds more interesting than killing yet another dragon(minion). 

I could see Anet easily doing a "Burning Legion"-like story at some point in the future. Though unrelated to the premise presented in the OP.

4 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That said, there won't be any more stories about dragons. Even the devs got tired of it, so much so they just killed the last three back to back with minimal buildup. Which is kinda funny because Season 4 could have been the end of the Elder Dragon plot for quite some time as Jormag and Primordus were asleep, and the DSD was inactive.

Each of them got "teaser content back in core/LWS2(for Mordremoth) and 3 maps + dragon fight" like the dragons had gotten since Zhaitan.

None of the Dragons got any more or less build up than the others. Anet was actually surprisingly consistent about it. Only thing that really got changed was Primordus' last map being changed into DRMs with the same overall story rather than open world maps.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Jimbru.6014]

Quoting dev anecdotes from 2010, two years BEFORE GW2 came out, about GW2 dragon lore. OK. I'll eave that where it lies. But seriously, are those guys even still working for ANet? The impression I have had for the last several years is that almost everyone who originally worked on GW2, much less GW1, is gone. Which probably is a big part of why the story has gone the way it has, with so many Big Things being given short service, and so much written in ways that seem deliberately designed to anger players.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Jimbru.6014

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

Which probably is a big part of why the story has gone the way it has, with so many Big Things being given short service, and so much written in ways that seem deliberately designed to anger players.

This mostly has to do with fans having years to sit on specific things they find interesting, and having years to build increasingly complex, and increasingly unrealistic/nonsensical, expectations on how they should play out. Thus they end up being disappointed when those thing play out in far tamer, but far more grounded, manner. I've seen this happen not only in pretty much every MMO, but even other media like TV/movie series.

People advocate for things like multi-year Charr civil war plots that focused ONLY on the Charr civil war, or similar for Joko, or Lazarus, ignoring that, even now, its pretty rare for an MMO to make it to 10+ years of active content development. You can't afford to waste multiple years on a side plot like that, or else you run the very real possibility of the game ceasing development before the larger plot is over. This combined with the fact that content development for games is slow, and most people get bored of any one thing fairly quickly, means you also can't afford to go overly into any one thing too much or else you lose most of the playerbase.

Even by the time right before "No Quarter" came out there was a rather vocal portion of the playerbase complaining that they were already tired of the whole Bangar/Charr Civil War plotline, despite the fact we hadn't even gotten to the actual war part yet, because the time between "Bound in Blood"(SEP 2019), and "No Quarter"(May 2020) is an eternity in gaming time.

Anet has largely taken an "introduction, escalation, resolution" method for their LW stories

• LWS3 White Mantle: Introduction(Bloodstone Fen), Escalation(Lake Doric), Resolution(Siren's Reef)
• LWS3 Jormag/Primordus: Introduction(Ember Bay), Escalation(Bitterfrost), Resolution(Draconis Mons)
• LWS4 Joko: Introduction(Istan), Escalation(Sandsweapt Isles), Resolution(Kourna)
• LWS4 Kralk: Introduction(Jahai), Escalation(Thunderhead), Resolution(Dragonfall)
• IBS Charr: Introduction(Grothmar), Escalation(No Quarter), Resolution(Jormag Rising)
• IBS Norn: Introduction(Whisper in the Dark), Escalation(Shadow in the Ice), Resolution(Jormag Rising)

And from what we can tell the Centaurs would've likely followed a similar path in the original plans for IBS. With chapters 5/6 being in the Centaur Homelands, while 7/8 would be in Anvil Rock, starting off in the Woodland Cascades in C7(likely still part of the Centaur lands), and going into Anvil Rock proper in C8 for the finale. This would've given the 3 major races of the north, Charr, Norn, and Centaurs, each a 3 parter in the IBS storyline. The dragon stories themselves get slightly more time with two middle segments, instead of just one, before the finale battle.

Pretty much every story in an MMO has to be built around these conceits. If a story goes on for a year and a half its already bordering on being too long in the grander scheme of things, and risks losing the audience. Most of whom have gotten bored of seeing the same plot over and over across 18 months.

This is why games like Guild Wars 2, and STO, do these sorts of 18 month storylines for things like living world, and why even WoW typically had like 1.5 years between expansions(counting the post expansion content update as part of the expansion) You need to be going to something different in 18 months or so.

Even now trying to wrap up the remaining GW2 plot threads will take another like 5 years, putting GW2 into a territory of active content development only a handful of MMOs have ever reached. They really couldn't afford to take more time than they already have on these plotlines.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

14 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Each of them got "teaser content back in core/LWS2(for Mordremoth) and 3 maps + dragon fight" like the dragons had gotten since Zhaitan.

None of the Dragons got any more or less build up than the others. Anet was actually surprisingly consistent about it. Only thing that really got changed was Primordus' last map being changed into DRMs with the same overall story rather than open world maps.

You should just stop. Nobody agrees with you on that, and that claim is kitten in the face of Soo-Won. Seitung and New Kaineng have nothing to do with Soo-Won.

Zhaitan had 5+ maps, Mordremoth had 6 maps (and two living world seasons + expansion), Kralkatorrik arguably got 8 maps outside core (6 at minimum) and an expansion + living world season.

Jormag had 3 maps outside core and 1 living world season, and Primordus got 2 maps outside core with half a living world season.

Soo-Won had at most arguably 3 maps (if you stress New Kaineng jadetech going haywire as related to Soo-Won) and technically less screentime than Primordus got.

9 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

Quoting dev anecdotes from 2010, two years BEFORE GW2 came out, about GW2 dragon lore. OK. I'll eave that where it lies. But seriously, are those guys even still working for ANet? The impression I have had for the last several years is that almost everyone who originally worked on GW2, much less GW1, is gone. Which probably is a big part of why the story has gone the way it has, with so many Big Things being given short service, and so much written in ways that seem deliberately designed to anger players.

There are several developers who still work on GW2 who were working on Prophecies, such as Matthew Medina and Bobby Stein. That said, not sure whom you're responding to exactly, but I'll assume it was me stating that devs confirmed the DSD was the horrors a few posts above...

Whether or not those devs still work is irrelevant to the fact that it was stated and established in the lore, before being changed. So I'm not sure why the fact the devs no longer working is being brought up as a discrediting factor. By that argument, then kitten all GW1 lore amiright? Who cares about how GW1 set up stuff, or even included Svanir. Svanir? What Svanir, he was from 2007. Doesn't matter, there was no Svanir. They're called the Sons of Jora, y'know?

It's a very silly argument to say that lore doesn't matter simply because it's old, regardless of its source. That lore, after all, is the very foundation which the current stories derive from. So of course it matters.

That doesn't mean the story direction didn't change - because of course it did. Anyone can tell, given the drastic story tone and retcons both major and minor. Sometimes the very same writers who set up lore ended up retconning it themselves - either a soft retcon, or a hard one.

For example on that - it was under Jeff Grubb's writing that the gift of magic was changed to be created by Abaddon, and then again under Jeff Grubb that retconned Abaddon didn't create magic, but siphoned it from the Bloodstone that got retconned into being Seer-created. All three were "soft retcons" where the changes was because of doctored historical records in-universe. Rather than "oh, this character who personally experienced something, and also the multiple Word of God statements confirming the character's experiences, was simply incorrect".

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Zhaitan had 5+ maps, Mordremoth had 6 maps (and two living world seasons + expansion), Kralkatorrik arguably got 8 maps outside core (6 at minimum) and an expansion + living world season.

Jormag had 3 maps outside core and 1 living world season, and Primordus got 2 maps outside core with half a living world season.

Soo-Won had at most arguably 3 maps (if you stress New Kaineng jadetech going haywire as related to Soo-Won) and technically less screentime than Primordus got.

The actual story against Zhaitan had 3 maps + a dragon fight, just like Mordremoth got, and pretty much all the Elder Dragons got

• Zhaitan had Straights of Devastation, Melchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore, + the dragon fight in Arah story mode
• Mordremoth had Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths, + the dragon fight in Dragon's Stand
• Kralkatorrik had Vabbi, Jahai, and Thudnerhead, + the dragon fight in Dragonall
• Soo-Won had Seitung Province, New Kaineng city, and Echovald Forest, + the dragon fight in Dragon's End
• Jormag had Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood, + the dragonfight in Dragonstorm
• Primordus had Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and as mentioned the last map of the Centuar homelands was turned into the first 2 DRM releases, + the dragon fight in Dragonstorm.

Only way Zhaitan had 5+ maps if if you're being super disingenuous about what actually constitutes the narrative fight against Zhaitan. But even then the other Elder Dragons, sans Soo-Won who was good and didn't have minions beforehand, got the same amount of teaser content before their actual stories, with minions appearing in cores maps leading to a major champion fight.

• Zhaitan had the bottom half of Bloodtide, and the Sparkfly Fen map, which led to a fight with Tequatal
• Mordremoth had bits of Dry Top, and Silverwastes, which led to a fight with the Vinewrath
• Jormag had the northern part of Wayfarer, the north-east part of Snowden, and Frostgorge Sound, which led to a fight with the Claw
• Kralk had the Dragonbrand which ran through Fields of Ruin, Blazeridge, and Iron Marches, and led to a fight with Shatterer
• Primordus' minions appeared in Metrica, Brisban, Kessex Hills, Timberline Falls, and Mount Maelstrom, which led to a fight with the Megadestroyer.

Your statements about dragons and living world seasons is also incredibly disingenuous

• Kralk didn't get a LW season for himself, he shared one with Joko, where both got half the season.
• Jormag's so called LW season was mostly about the Charr, not Jormag itself.. Just like Primordus' was mostly about Balthazar, which is part of the narrative parallel between the two.
• Mordremoth didn't get two LW seasons. LWS1 had jack all to do with Mordremoth itself. We learned literally nothing about it, didn't hear its name, and we fought only one minion of it.... which we only found out was a minion of it at the very last second due to the finale cutscene. And LWS2 was just giving Mordremoth the content the other 4 evil dragons had back in core to bring it up to par with them.

And none of the Elder Dragons outside Kralk got any real screen time

• Zhaitan only showed up in Arah story mode
• Mordremoth only showed up in Dragon Stand/Hearts and Minds
• Jormag only showed up, as a head, in Jormag Rising, and then again in Dragonstorm
• Primordus only showed up, as a head, in Draconis Mons, again as a head in "Wildfire", and then again in Dragonstorm
• Soo-Won showed up in Dragon's End, and the story missions "Deepest Secrets" and "The Only One"

In actuality both Soo-Won and Primordus got more actual on-screen time than Zhaitan and Mordremoth did. And just a bit more than Jormag.

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You should just stop. Nobody agrees with you on that, and that claim is kitten in the face of Soo-Won. Seitung and New Kaineng have nothing to do with Soo-Won.

Facts are facts regardless of if people want to accept them or not. And both Seitung and New Kaineng have everything to do with the Dragonvoid storyline, which was Soo-Won's storyline.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

• Zhaitan had Straights of Devastation, Melchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore, + the dragon fight in Arah story mode

Mount Maelstrom
Sparkfly Fen - even has Tequatl world boss
There's no way you can't include these.
Technically Bloodtide Coast and Caledon Forest had significant risen presence too.
And Branded world bosses were in Elon Riverlands and decent presence in Crystal Oasis and Desert Highlands (several bounties, etc.), not counting Blazeridge Steppes and Iron Marches in core (less importantly, but with 3-4 champ event chains, Fields of Ruin)

But you can keep saying what you want. I can't stop you. I won't ever agree with you on this either, so you're repetition ad nauseam won't be doing you any favors.

3 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And none of the Elder Dragons outside Kralk got any real screen time

• Zhaitan only showed up in Arah story mode
• Mordremoth only showed up in Dragon Stand/Hearts and Minds
• Jormag only showed up, as a head, in Jormag Rising, and then again in Dragonstorm
• Primordus only showed up, as a head, in Draconis Mons, again as a head in "Wildfire", and then again in Dragonstorm
• Soo-Won showed up in Dragon's End, and the story missions "Deepest Secrets" and "The Only One"

Since this bit is actually new...

• Zhaitan had a presence via its Eyes and Mouths which, while not Zhaitan directly, were treated as part of its exposure to players by the devs. Was also witnessed in several cinematics before Arah (notably Battle for Fort Trinity), and was also the only Elder Dragon to be revealed pre-release. Also directly depicted in the novel Sea of Sorrows.
• For sylvari characters, Mordremoth's shadow face shows up throughout HoT story and his voice is heard as well - the face is easily noticeable in Bitter Harvest. His voice was also depicted in the HoT launch trailer.
• Jormag was talked to throughout all of IBS - doesn't physically show up, but has a very real presence to the players, from the IBS trailer to Episodes 1, 2, 4, and 5.
• Soo-Won had only three conversations before Dragon's End, and each far shorter than any Jormag conversation - as short as the Mordremoth dialogue for sylvari, but far fewer appearances. The duration of all are basically on par to seeing Primordus in the distance - except Primordus is just "there". Soo-Won does have the benefit of being featured in two trailers, though, featuring canon dialogue not in game (like the HoT launch trailer or IBS announcement trailer for Mordremoth and Jormag respectively).

 

So while you're accurate about direct and physical screen time... inaccurate about player exposure which is what people actually mean when they say "screen time". Which is to say I can see your argument, but that argument feels more about the letter of the discussion, and not the intent of the discussion.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Mount Maelstrom
Sparkfly Fen - even has Tequatl world boss
There's no way you can't include these.

Technically Bloodtide Coast and Caledon Forest had significant risen presence too.

I very easily can.

None of those maps were about the larger fight against Zhiatan. It wasn't about the Pact taking the fight to him, we weren't on the big military campaign to take him down, it wasn't part of some huge operation to fight him. We were just in the area, as was his forces. Exactly the same as Primordus' forces were just in Metrica, Brisban, Kessex, etc. Kralks in the Dragonbrand. Jormag's forces in Forsgorge, etc.

Mount Maelstrom especially. Neither of the map metas were about Zhaitan's forces, and Zhaitan's forces don't even appear in most of the normal events either. They're just lumbering about in the swamp in the bottom corner, and attack Quandry Scratch in one event. Not only are the Destroyers FAR more involved in the map(being the focus of one or two metas), but all the other dragon minions show up in Mount Maelstrom in almost equal numbers as the Risen due to the post-launch ley line dragon minion events. You could completly remove the Risen from Mount Maelstrom and not change the map in any significant way.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And Branded world bosses were in Elon Riverlands and decent presence in Crystal Oasis and Desert Highlands (several bounties, etc.), not counting Blazeridge Steppes and Iron Marches in core (less importantly, but with 3-4 champ event chains, Fields of Ruin)

And Destroyers were showing up in the Desert Highlands in the Derelict Delve and as bounty bosses. You gonna call that a Primordus map? You don't seem to be able to comprehend difference between the story/map being about something, and something also just existing in that area. Might as well say Skyrim was about the Thalmor since they show up in various places... it isn't. They're there to be a background detail of the world, not the focus of it.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So while you're accurate about direct and physical screen time... inaccurate about player exposure which is what people actually mean when they say "screen time". Which is to say I can see your argument, but that argument feels more about the letter of the discussion, and not the intent of the discussion.

A whole lot of misrepresentation and reaching here

• Trying to pull in trailers, and books, is the ultimate form of reaching. Most people not only haven't read the books(not to mention how many times the books have been contradicted in-game and made not entirely canon anyways), but they don't watch trailers either, so that doesn't actually translate to expose to these character. We were also talking about the game, not out of game materials. So this is just goalpost moving.
• By the same metric of Jormag being talked about through IBS, Primordus got numerous mentions across LWS3, and their presence was felt heavily in two of the seasons' maps. Just like Jormag was felt in two of IBS's maps. Not to mention things like the Derelict Delve/Bounty bosses in the Desert Highlands, the large presence of Destroyers and Primordus magic corrupted Stone Summit in Steel and Fire, Champions which had Destroyers popping up all across Tyria, etc.
• I don't know anyone who treated the Mouths/Eyes of Zhaitan as exposure to Zhaitan itself. They were largely treated as odd minions like every dragon had. The Mouth shows up in 4 missions(two of which are mutually exclusive) and just serves as a boss fight. Might as well claim the various odd Destroyer bosses throughout the game are also exposure to Primordus.
• Mordremoth is heard in two missions in HoT by Sylvari characters, in lines a lot of people miss due to how short they are. The dialogue in Bitter Harvest everyone can hear, and amounts to 2-3 word threats. Nothing that gives us any real insight/knowledge/exposure to the dragon that various quips from normal enemies doesn't give. And Bitter Harvest is part of the finale against the dragon anyways. Its like claiming "we'll we heard Zhaitan speak in Arah story mode!"(if it had spoken at all)
• Our actual face time with Soo-Won in EoD is all of a couple minutes in each time we see her, the same amount of face to face exposure we get with Jormag, Primordus, Zhaitan, and Mordremoth, across the game.

Even counting non-direct screen time most of the dragons got a couple minutes total outside Kralk, who was always far and beyond the most exposed.

The dragons almost never showed up directly, rarely had anything to say beyond short threats, and our actual interaction with them numbers in the handful of minutes total for each.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But you can keep saying what you want. I can't stop you. I won't ever agree with you on this either, so you're repetition ad nauseam won't be doing you any favors.

If you truly believed this then you wouldn't have made your initial response in the first place. This is just yet another one of your attempt to try to challenge someone, and then back out the moment you get challenged back by portraying anyone who doesn't immediately agree with you as being unreasonable as you've been doing, and been called out for doing, since the Guru days.

You're hellbent on starting things you can't finish. Everyone else sees how transparent it all is.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 1/11/2023 at 8:41 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

This is a good theory but it ties too much into an already finished plotline (the Zaishen and so on), and we know from recent Living World and expansions that the devs have tired of drawing out old stories.

 

I think its more likely that Soo-Won had a dragon champion long before Kuunavang and lost control of it at some point due to her pacifist nature. This could also explain why Soo-Won didn't have any minions as control of them had likely been stolen from her, and this champion could be quite powerful like Glint and could've easily been confused for being the deep sea dragon by the lesser races who don't know any better.

 

I love the Quaggan but they worship Mellagan (confirmed to be Soo-Won) at sunken statues of Melandru. They're not exactly the brightest bunch and neither are the Krait.

 

Pretty much the only reliable Intel we could get would be from Largos, and we know how that goes.

 

As for survivability in the deep ocean, just the water in Frostgorge Sound is _extremely_ deep without using a metal diving  suit, (its actually a wonder we don't take damage) so its unlikely we could ever go deeper without some kind of protection, and it wouldn't be much farther than now without outright having a submarine mount.

 

Remember, the game world isn't to scale by about 4:1, so the area near the Quaggan guild rush in Frostgorge Sound would actually be about four times deeper... with just an aquabreather.

That would be about as ridiculous as diving into a volcano...oh, wait...

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That would be about as ridiculous as diving into a volcano...oh, wait...

It was so good we did it twice, though once as a Braham so maybe it doesn't count?