removed

[apharma.3741]

I'm just loving how the counter argument to maths and literal timing of the skills is being refuted by "He's the best so must know what he's talking about" and deflection. You should never simply take someone's word for it especially if they're dodging around a proof.

Everything Terrorhuz said about how long it takes for the skills to land and very visible animation has merit but you guys don't want to discuss it because? Like even going into the game, recording it and doing frame counting for 5mins would show if what he's saying is true or not.

So my question: Is your ego too big or fragile that you won't look into what he said or not? We can all be wrong and personally I don't know if he's right but from experience it's about that.

Edit: I think I know why Grim is saying what he's saying. He's playing berserker catalyst with dagger offhand, air, arcana and catalyst with minimal cleanses. This is not indicative of all catalyst builds though and swapping to fire or running focus would work heavily in your favour vs Virtuoso while being strong all over still. You can also see how he deletes lots of people and still almost killed the virtuoso in 1-2s, I feel sorry for the thief personally.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1720454534?t=0h21m27s

Edited January 31, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Everything Terrorhuz said about how long it takes for the skills to land and very visible animation has merit but you guys don't want to discuss it because?

It doesn't really need to be discussed.

If anyone was regularly playing ATs and making it to final rounds against the better players on their server or at least sparing against other good players, they'd clearly see how Mesmer specs were being played by the better Mesmer players.

This class is simply not weak like Mesmer mains are always stating. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing that being thrown around in the forum because it isn't true. Mark my words now, when Cata/Spell/Vindi gets nerfed, we're going to see a lot of Mesmers showing up. It won't just be Virtuoso either, Core Mes and Chrono also have very viable builds that are just as difficult to get off a side node as a Spellbreaker is, albeit their match up skew of counters is slightly different. They also have plenty of viable burst builds that are highly neglected and very underused, in light of the massive 3-cheese trinity we have going on right now. But as soon as that 3-cheese trinity is culled, you're gonna see Mesmers on side nodes and Chronos bursting all over the place.

That Distortion granted to Chrono & Virtuoso is a sleeper advantage waiting to happen when the 3-cheese goes away.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[apharma.3741]

19 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It doesn't really need to be discussed.

If anyone was regularly playing ATs and making it to final rounds against the better players on their server or at least sparing against other good players, they'd clearly see how Mesmer specs were being played by the better Mesmer players.

This class is simply not weak like Mesmer mains are always stating. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing that being thrown around in the forum because it isn't true. Mark my words now, when Cata/Spell/Vindi gets nerfed, we're going to see a lot of Mesmers showing up. It won't just be Virtuoso either, Core Mes and Chrono also have very viable builds that are just as difficult to get off a side node as a Spellbreaker is, albeit their match up skew of counters is slightly different.

Yes, mark my words, when everything strong is deleted something else will be strong. Also Malediktus regularly got to finals and won mAT and he was quoted as saying he has issues dodging attacks with <0.75s cast and will likely never get out of silver/gold, I can get you that quote if you like?
Real mesmer players know invuln spam from signets and resetting shatters is broken and stupid, go look through my history Mr Boyer, I haven't said otherwise in the recent state of the game. They also know that offensively Virtuoso is bad and factually worse than core except for F2, seriously stop playing forum warrior ranger and go do the math on bladesongs, maybe even play it! 😮 
What he was saying is how virtuoso bladesongs have giant tells and only 1 bladesong on the condition variant being discussed is even remotely dangerous to a catalyst. Neither of you care to refute this because you both know it's true. In fact you can even watch the fight of him vs Kyra 1v1 on a node that I linked and while it is not easy for him it also shouldn't be when he has very few cleanses and playing a super aggressive build. He won btw.

Edit: Looks like you added more to your post after the fact. Yes go look through my posts, I have clearly stated multiple times adding distortion to Vituoso should not have been done. Additionally I have also been very prominent (much to the ire of the mesmer forum) in saying continuum split shouldn't exist and instead chrono needs a replacement for distortion that isn't quite distortion.

Edited January 31, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Terrorhuz.4695]

30 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Mark my words now, when Cata/Spell/Vindi gets nerfed, we're going to see a lot of Mesmers showing up.

All I'm saying, ever since 25feb patch every class had nothing but nerfs. Only exceptions to that: the recent warrior\ele rework, and vindicator getting 2 dodges. Every other patch note was the devs nerfing something.

Mesmer is an outlier in that: everything was nerfed, but mesmer had nothing but buffs (fat gs buffs, half cd on moa, distortion added to virt and chrono, dagger buffs to both damage and projectile speed, lowered cds on some of virtuoso's skills -so much so that Blade Renewal is the invuln with the shortest cooldown in the game-, virtuoso's healing skill properly working, projectiles from F1 now track targets, staff ambush now grants alacrity).

Nerfing everything but mesmer and buffing mesmer still wasn't enough to make mesmer meta. So much so, I look at the EU leaderboard and there's 2 mesmer mains in top 100 THAT IS IT. So forgive me Trevor but I'm not holding my breath on your prediction.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

47 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Yes, mark my words, when everything strong is deleted something else will be strong

You overly simplify this fact as to make it look like homogeneously, Virtuoso would be as strong as or complained about as much as current Cata/Spell/Vindi. No one is stating that and I guarantee you that will not happen. It may be the next annoying thing but I'm pretty sure at this point every single person participating in GW2 pvp would much rather deal with Mesmers than Cata because they at least have a sense of balance & drawback when implemented into the Conquest game mode.

47 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Also Malediktus regularly got to finals and won mAT and he was quoted as saying he has issues dodging attacks with <0.75s cast and will likely never get out of silver/gold, I can get you that quote if you like?

I'm actually not sure what the point in quoting Malediktus was. This guy is a known exposed title purchaser. Like he's actually one of the big memes.

47 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Real mesmer players know invuln spam from signets and resetting shatters is broken and stupid, go look through my history Mr Boyer, I haven't said otherwise in the recent state of the game.

I never said you didn't. My entire response was centered around the idea that these things don't need to be discussed because it is obvious that Mesmers can run nigh invulnerable build structures that when played by very strong players are nearly impossible to actually catch and put down. This class is not weak, and in the case of Grimjack discussing these as a counter vs. Hammer Cata, all these Mesmer builds need to do is survive like a cockroach and out range you, landing that one magic CC at the right time to land the big burst. That's all they have to do. The good players know how to really work the defensive CDs to the point that they technically don't actually have to outplay you, but rather wait until you make one mistake, and then they momentum shift and begin pushing you off the node when you are forced to go into a defensive cycling.

47 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

They also know that offensively Virtuoso is bad

It may be bad offensively when trying to go ham, but it is very strong counter-offensively, when played like a Spellbreaker. This is what makes the difference between decent Virtuosos and dangerous Virtuosos.

47 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

go do the math on bladesongs, maybe even play it!

I don't need to do that because one of my regular teammates is Zifrit/Shirkrell and I pay attention to what he counters or gets countered by when he is on side nodes. I've been watching this Virtuoso play since EoD release in probably about 75% of the ATs I run.

I'm quite well aware of its capabilities from the standpoint of a Ranger main, as well as a team member who needs to know what my teammates are capable of dealing with on side nodes, if they need my + or not, how soon, or how long I can wait before going.

47 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

What he was saying is how virtuoso bladesongs have giant tells and only 1 bladesong on the condition variant being discussed is even remotely dangerous to a catalyst. Neither of you care to refute this because you both know it's true. In fact you can even watch the fight of him vs Kyra 1v1 on a node that I linked and while it is not easy for him it also shouldn't be when he has very few cleanses and playing a super aggressive build. He won btw.

I'm actually not sure what you're talking about here. I was never commenting on this portion of wherever this argument came from. You're talking about Kyra vs. Grimjack Virt vs. H Cata? In the case of Grimjack on a Cata, you would need to put him against high tiered Mesmers to get a realistic gauge of Mesmer vs. Cata play at those levels. Of course Grimjack is at a level where he would be able to play around a counter if the Mesmer wasn't playing at his same level. That comparison of Kyra vs Grimjack is not a good comparison of current Mes vs. Ele play imo.

45 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Nerfing everything but mesmer and buffing mesmer still wasn't enough to make mesmer meta. So much so, I look at the EU leaderboard and there's 2 mesmer mains in top 100 THAT IS IT

The same can be said for every single class/build that is not a Cata/Spell/Vindi right now.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You overly simplify this fact as to make it look like homogeneously, Virtuoso would be as strong as or complained about as much as current Cata/Spell/Vindi. No one is stating that and I guarantee you that will not happen. It may be the next annoying thing but I'm pretty sure at this point every single person participating in GW2 pvp would much rather deal with Mesmers than Cata because they at least have a sense balance & drawback when implemented into the Conquest game mode.

I'm actually not sure what the point in quoting Malediktus was. This guy is known exposed title purchaser. Like he's actually one of the big memes.

I never said you didn't. My entire response was centered around the idea that these things don't need to be discussed because it is obvious that Mesmers can run nigh invulnerable build structures that when played by very strong players are nearly impossible to actually catch and put down. This class is not weak, and in the case of Grimjack discussing these as a counter vs. Hammer Cata, all these Mesmer builds need to do is survive like a cockroach and out range you, landing that one magic CC at the right time to land the big burst. That's all they have to do. The good players know how to really work the defensive CDs to the point that they technically don't actually have to outplay you, but rather wait until you make one mistake, and then they momentum shift and begin pushing you off the node when you are forced to go into a defensive cycling.

It may be bad offensively when trying to go ham, but it is very strong counter-offensively, when played like a Spellbreaker. This is what makes the difference between decent Virtuosos and dangerous Virtuosos.

I don't need to because one of my regular team mates is Zifrit/Shirkrell and I pay attention to what he counters or gets countered by when he is on side nodes. I've been watching this Virtuoso play since EoD release in probably about 75% of the ATs I run.

I'm quite well aware of its capabilities from the standpoint of a Ranger main, as well as a team member who needs to know what my team mates are capable of dealing with on side nodes, if they need my + or not, how soon, or how long I can wait before going.

I'm actually not sure what you're talking about here. I was never commenting on this portion of wherever this argument came from. You're talking about Kyra vs. Grimjack Virt vs. H Cata? In the case of Grimjack on a Cata, you would need to put him against high tiered Mesmers to get a realistic gauge of Mesmer vs. Cata play at those levels. Of course Grimjack is at a level where he would be able to play around a counter if the Mesmer wasn't playing at his same level. That comparison of Kyra vs Grimjack is not a good comparison of current Mes vs. Ele play imo.

The same can be said for every single class/build that is not a Cata/Spell/Vindi right now.

I didn't oversimplify anything, that is very much the logic you're espousing when you don't say WHY a class would be better after what's too strong is nerfed.
I mentioned Malediktus as an indication of the state of NA mAT and how using it as justification for anything is not the smartest move. That's without pointing out how biased many NA players have been in the past to shape metas benefiting their preferred classes like necro.

Virtuoso and mesmer in general is often called bad not because it cannot be obnoxious but because they're propped up by poor if not abusive mechanics like blurred inscriptions and/or signet of illusions to get more distortion or the equally problematic continuum split. No-one likes fighting something that's invuln (or simply takes very little damage) when you attack or that can reset after they mess up, that's not mesmer specific but the virtuoso builds epitomise this the best. Take away the problem mechanics and you're left with a class that has poor damage, poor sustain and is in an uphill struggle all the time while other classes don't have to play fair. That is why people say mesmer is weak, the problem builds are propped up by some really broken traits/skills but the builds without them feel skilful but are often ineffective. This was Boyce's experience in his mesmer binge on carrion PB mirage, that he'd be more effective on any other class and it wasn't a L2P issue either.
I was talking about how Terrorhuz was discussing mechanics and cast times of Virtuoso with Grim to show how catalyst doesn't need to be worried about Virtuoso. You know the start of this whole discussion you waded yourself into. Kyra vs Grim is also largely not what they're discussing because Grim was playing a super aggressive build he wouldn't play vs "high tiered Mesmers" but it is a good example of how even when the cards were stacked firmly in the virtuoso's favour it lost.

[Jski.6180]

Hay i would take that over core ele nerfs and nerfs in other game types like wvw and pve. A lot of witch ppl are suggesting every where now as if you "a class is missed used in one game type all game types and version of that class must pay."

All over-blown game type and just how dead e-sports is in gw2 hehe.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

24 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Grim is also largely not what they're discussing because Grim was playing a super aggressive build he wouldn't play vs "high tiered Mesmers" but it is a good example of how even when the cards were stacked firmly in the virtuoso's favour it lost.

Yup but that's the same kind of deal as if you were to throw a mediocre Spellbreaker at me while I was on Soulbeast. Let's say situationally I had just finished a 1v1 with someone else, I was at 50% health, all my skills were on CD, and that Spellbreaker walked around the corner at me with full health, full adrenaline, and all his skills off CD. Even though that situation is most certainly in his favor, I possess enough skill above him that I'm going to monkey around, survive, and end up killing him. I'd probably be able to hold the node while doing it as well.

You cannot use this as an adequate example of Soulbeast vs. Spellbreaker. It's going to make it look like Soulbeast counters Spellbreaker. In reality, when you put one of the best Soulbeasts vs. one of the best Spellbreakers, it's a pretty even match up in terms of them having equal kill threat vs each other, but the Spellbreaker will always be able to hold & full cap the node while the Soulbeast has to kite & stealth around to be able to equal him in combat, unable to stop the Spellbreaker's cap. In reality, it's a good 50% chance the Soulbeast may win after an elongated 1v1, but the Spellbreaker will hold that node nearly the entire time during that elongated 1v1 to where it make the Soulbeast's effort not worth the time invested.

In other words, if you want to gauge Cata vs. Virtuoso at the level Grimjack is capable of playing Cata, you'd need to pull out top shelf Mesmer players to get a realistic judgement.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[apharma.3741]

7 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yup but that's the same kind of deal as if you were to throw a mediocre Spellbreaker at me while I was on Soulbeast. Let's say situationally I had just finished a 1v1 with someone else, I was at 50% health, all my skills were on CD, and that Spellbreaker walked around the corner at me with full health, full adrenaline, and all his skills off CD. Even though that situation is most certainly in his favor, I possess enough skill above him that I'm going to monkey around, survive, and end up killing him. I'd probably be able to hold the node while doing it as well.

You cannot use this as an adequate example of Soulbeast vs. Spellbreaker. It's going to make it look like Soulbeast counters Spellbreaker. In reality, when you put one of the best Soulbeasts vs. one of the best Spellbreakers, it's a pretty even match up in terms of them having equal kill threat vs each other, but the Spellbreaker will always be able to hold & full cap the node while the Soulbeast has to kite & stealth around to be able to equal him in combat, unable to stop the Spellbreaker's cap. In reality, it's a good 50% chance the Soulbeast may win after an elongated 1v1, but the Spellbreaker will hold that node nearly the entire time during that elongated 1v1 to where it make the Soulbeast's effort not worth the time invested.

In other words, if you want to gauge Cata vs. Virtuoso at the level Grimjack is capable of playing the Cata, you'd need to pull some of the top shelf Mesmer players out to get a realistic gauge of how that match up would realistically play out at those tiers.

You didn't watch the video, clearly. Also we all know the mediocre spb would win, this is because we've seen you play, we've seen you get top damage by attacking gates on foefire to make sure you do. We've seen you rage and blame everyone in the team when you were basically afk half the game not being useful. I have the screenshots so don't say you didn't. 

"it's a good 50% chance the Soulbeast may win after an elongated 1v1, but the Spellbreaker will hold that node nearly the entire time during that elongated 1v1" - Yes, spellbreaker won, the game is about point holding mostly. This is why many (not me) say distortion isn't an issue because mesmer gets decapped.
 

If Kyra is in his match at his rating then they're not mediocre enough that if virtuoso truly countered catalyst then Kyra would have won. We're also ignoring that these are 2 very different builds to those being discussed so half of what you're saying is moot. All this however is you deflecting again rather than actually discussing the points raised by Terrorhuz by using an appeal to authority which not all here agree with.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

9 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

You didn't watch the video, clearly.

I don't need too. Not only is that footage an invalid representation of that match up due to what I've already explained to you in the previous post, but that incredibly small subsample doesn't even begin to hold a flame to the amount of live in-game combat results I see on a daily basis while playing ATs, coming from Mesmer players either on my team or against me.

Btw, what server do you play on? I've never once seen you in-game. Has anyone?

9 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Also we all know the mediocre spb would win, this is because we've seen you play, we've seen you get top damage by attacking gates on foefire to make sure you do. We've seen you rage and blame everyone in the team when you were basically afk half the game not being useful. I have the screenshots so don't say you didn't.

Classy.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[apharma.3741]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I don't need too. Not only is that footage an invalid representation of that match up due to what I've already explained to you in the previous post, but that incredibly small subsample doesn't even begin to hold a flame to the amount of live in-game combat results I see on a daily basis while playing ATs, coming from Mesmer players either on my team or against me.

Btw, what server do you play on? I've never once seen you in-game. Has anyone?

Classy.

Another appeal to authority which no-one agrees with and with no proof of Virtuoso's farming catalysts. How's about you actually start refuting what we've been asking for, I'll do you a solid and put it here, until then I got some paint on the wall that requires my attention. 
 

16 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

They're not, the trait is bugged and extremely unreliable with the illusions traitline (which is what 90% of the mesmers run because of mesmer reasons). If that trait worked properly Virtuoso would be omega broken, but it doesn't.

Count the frames instead of shitposting, you'll realize they are even slower than that. Both F1 and F2 take well over 1s before the projectiles even exist. Moreover the bulk of their cast time is tied to effects, not animations, so they're unaffected by quickness -just like you can't make guardian's symbols tick faster with quickness.

For F2 it takes 0.55s to spawns the blades (0.3s with quickness). After that, blades will float behind the mesmer for 0.7s before shooting; this floating has about the same timing as that of a maul, and the blades themselves are already projectiles (with collision turned off, but projectiles) so they're not affected by quickness nor stealth. See pic related. If you can dodge maul, you can dodge this.

As for F1, it spews blades continuosly; once again, the animation itself before the spew can be sped up; once they start spewing, they do so at their own pace, which is something around once every 0.13s-ish seconds. It will take 1.10s before the first blade even exist, making this skill about as telegraphed as prime light beam (about 1.15s). If you can dodge prime light beam, you can dodge this.

That assuming the timing of the skills wasn't shadow changed, I don't count frames every week because it would require me to get clear footage from a virtuoso streamer, and good luck finding that because there's none.
Except that one mysterious virtuoso which does nothing but farming Grimjack all day long, which must be a full time job because nobody else has ever seen this superhuman mesmer.

You have a metric kittenton of superspeed to get out of the range of a spinning virtuoso, gale to interrupt the channeled F5, fortify earth to prevent the blades from hitting you and double obsidian flesh if you still get hit. You are far from the best player in the word but I'm sure you can come up with something to save yourself from that terrible F5 (which, however, pulses 1 stack of torment for 3s so IDK if you should even bother doing that...)

 

[Grimjack.8130]

8 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I'm just loving how the counter argument to maths and literal timing of the skills is being refuted by "He's the best so must know what he's talking about" and deflection. You should never simply take someone's word for it especially if they're dodging around a proof.

Everything Terrorhuz said about how long it takes for the skills to land and very visible animation has merit but you guys don't want to discuss it because? Like even going into the game, recording it and doing frame counting for 5mins would show if what he's saying is true or not.

So my question: Is your ego too big or fragile that you won't look into what he said or not? We can all be wrong and personally I don't know if he's right but from experience it's about that.

Edit: I think I know why Grim is saying what he's saying. He's playing berserker catalyst with dagger offhand, air, arcana and catalyst with minimal cleanses. This is not indicative of all catalyst builds though and swapping to fire or running focus would work heavily in your favour vs Virtuoso while being strong all over still. You can also see how he deletes lots of people and still almost killed the virtuoso in 1-2s, I feel sorry for the thief personally.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1720454534?t=0h21m27s

i

said

hammer

also

loses

that

was

even

what

i

said

first

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

I couldn't care less about what Grimjack has to say about F2. The mechanic of the skill is

1) Mesmer performs some animation lasting for X seconds
2) After X seconds, projectiles are spawned behind the mesmer
3) after X+Y time, the projectiles spawned at point 2 will travel towards their intended target

Quickness can reduce the timing of X (and aftercast), stealth may hide it entirely, but that's it. The "telegraph" on X is affected, the one on Y is not.
Y is coded with projectiles (we know the blades are projectiles from frame 1 because they inherit the model of legendary weapons) and are thus unaffected by quickness or stealth; nothing can hide them and nothing can alter their timing. Frame counting shows this timing is always 0.7s regardless of anything else.

The worst case scenario is you having 0.7s to dodge a skill.
You can argue it's a telegraph big enough, you can argue it needs a bigger telegraph. You can't argue quickness works, because quickness doesn't affect projectiles. I expect this to be common knowledge for a plat player, let alone a MAT winner. Period.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[lotus.5672]

guys stop making fun of grim or he will threaten to kill you irl!

[Koensol.5860]

4 hours ago, lotus.5672 said:

guys stop making fun of grim or he will threaten to kill you irl!

The only one making fun of grimjack is grimjack himself, lol. The guy is literally just rubbing his e-peen, cherry picking posts by ignoring entire sections that counter his previous argument. Instead of properly adressing terrorhuz's post with counter arguments, or admitting he didn't understand how virt skills/traits actually work, he chooses to come back with some meme/edgy cherry picked response devoid of actual substance in an attempt to preserve his ego. But hey! "BeSt ElE nA" so he must be right! 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Koensol.5860