Elementalist - Whats the real problem?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524, not that I play sword/dagger on my ranger when I play her, but wouldn't a condi focused Soulbeast have several evades to attack and defend at the same time with such a build in that matchup?

List of reasons as to why Sword/Dagger is obsolete in general, and definitely not a good niche choice to use vs. Ele:

1. Everything in this current patching is about maintaining offensive pressure. Rangers are in a position where we either kill or get killed, where older styled builds that played around the idea of "holding a node with pure defensive stature little to no offense" aren't working anymore. Sword/Dagger may delay your leaving the node very very briefly, but while on Sword/Dagger for those 9s, you have no offensive pressure. It's just too much time to grant the opponent defensive/heal/cleanse cycling without maintaining offensive pressure. In many cases vs. something like today's modern Ele, 9s is like a full reset for him. It becomes a situation where you notice that whether you're running power or condi, it is necessary to maintain maximum DPS pressure with both weapon sets and that hard DPS pressure is actually more defensive than trying to use Sword/Dagger evades, believe it or not. If you don't maintain that level of pressure in higher tiered play, let's say final rounds of ATs, you may survive opponents but you won't be able to kill them.
2. Sword/Dagger evade frames are also awkward mobility skills that make you move in little circles or mandatory make you leap forward or backwards to use, which creates a lot of problems in our current patchings. Right now we have so much immob/force effects in play and things like Nature's Binding or Magebane Tether, and even Shock Aura is a serious problem for Sword/Dagger. 1) When you are immobed in roots, you can't get out of them with these evasion skills and they don't deal enough damage to strike the roots to get out quickly. You end up evade framing around which will delay death but you're ultimately screwed once the evades end. 2) Those evade frames are useless when you're caught inside of a Ring Of Warding or Spectral Ring or Nature's Binding. You can't even use them without them making you go forward or backwards or spin in a circle and hit the force effects and CC yourself. If you're caught in these on Sword/Dagger side, it's like you're standing there with no weapon equipped because if you use any of those skills you die. 3) Magebane Tether knocks you out of evade frames. 4) All of those Sword/Dagger evades have strike damage attached to them and this is an obnoxious problem with so much Shock Aura being thrown around because any little bit of damage you land even by accident with those stray melee strikes, will immediately make you CC yourself and ruin the evade frame to begin with.
3. TLDR: Ultimately Rangers are in a position where we HAVE TO run either power burst or condi burst to have any level of efficiency in PvP in higher tiered play. WvW is different with various PvE stat allocations like wth Cele but let's not get into that. The only options for PvP to maintain that mandatory DPS pressure is either Longbow/Greatsword power or Shortbow/Axe setups for condi, and even the condi variants don't want to use Dagger for those reasons I mentioned. It just ends up getting you killed when it's supposed to be a kite weapon, which doesn't work out well. The best options there for condi is Torch offhand to maintain maximized DPS pressure and it also works as a decap skill because Bonfire is as big as a side node and when used in conjunction with Sharp Stone 10x bleed prep, the Bonfire creates unblockable pulse 9x burns with those 10x bleeds applying on the burns, and it's like laying a Plaguelands on a very low ICD. No one wants to stand in it, and that unblockable is often the only way to get under massive anti-projectile uptime to maintain offensive pressure to be able to actually kill something like an Ele or Mesmer.

Also, about Soulbeast and that Smoke Assault. Shock Aura knocks you out of Smoke Assault. I mean in all seriousness, everything Ele does, counters everything that Ranger does. There is no way around it other than the Ranger being a significantly stronger player than the Ele. We've ran enough organized 1v1 at this point and this is always the result of Ranger vs. Ele matches.

6 hours ago, Filip.7463 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524I like to follow your content.

I can see that. Thanks man.

Btw, this is what I run -> Rabid Burst Druid Guide - Twitch At about 5:50 I very thoroughly explain why traps are bad to use on any & all condi ranger variants in modern patching.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

47 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

List of reasons as to why Sword/Dagger is obsolete in general, and definitely not a good niche choice to use vs. Ele:

1. Everything in this current patching is about maintaining offensive pressure. Rangers are in a position where we either kill or get killed, where older styled builds that played around the idea of "holding a node with pure defensive stature little to no offense" aren't working anymore. Sword/Dagger may delay your leaving the node very very briefly, but while on Sword/Dagger for those 9s, you have no offensive pressure. It's just too much time to grant the opponent defensive/heal/cleanse cycling without maintaining offensive pressure. In many cases vs. something like today's modern Ele, 9s is like a full reset for him. It becomes a situation where you notice that whether you're running power or condi, it is necessary to maintain maximum DPS pressure with both weapon sets and that hard DPS pressure is actually more defensive than trying to use Sword/Dagger evades, believe it or not. If you don't maintain that level of pressure in higher tiered play, let's say final rounds of ATs, you may survive opponents but you won't be able to kill them.
2. Sword/Dagger evade frames are also awkward mobility skills that make you move in little circles or mandatory make you leap forward or backwards to use, which creates a lot of problems in our current patchings. Right now we have so much immob/force effects in play and things like Nature's Binding or Magebane Tether, and even Shock Aura is a serious problem for Sword/Dagger. 1) When you are immobed in roots, you can't get out of them with these evasion skills and they don't deal enough damage to strike the roots to get out quickly. You end up evade framing around which will delay death but you're ultimately screwed once the evades end. 2) Those evade frames are useless when you're caught inside of a Ring Of Warding or Spectral Ring or Nature's Binding. You can't even use them without them making you go forward or backwards or spin in a circle and hit the force effects and CC yourself. If you're caught in these on Sword/Dagger side, it's like you're standing there with no weapon equipped because if you use any of those skills you die. 3) Magebane Tether knocks you out of evade frames. 4) All of those Sword/Dagger evades have strike damage attached to them and this is an obnoxious problem with so much Shock Aura being thrown around because any little bit of damage you land even by accident with those stray melee strikes, will immediately make you CC yourself and ruin the evade frame to begin with.
3. TLDR: Ultimately Rangers are in a position where we HAVE TO run either power burst or condi burst to have any level of efficiency in PvP in higher tiered play. WvW is different with various PvE stat allocations like wth Cele but let's not get into that. The only options for PvP to maintain that mandatory DPS pressure is either Longbow/Greatsword power or Shortbow/Axe setups for condi, and even the condi variants don't want to use Dagger for those reasons I mentioned. It just ends up getting you killed when it's supposed to be a kite weapon, which doesn't work out well. The best options there for condi is Torch offhand to maintain maximized DPS pressure and it also works as a decap skill because Bonfire is as big as a side node and when used in conjunction with Sharp Stone 10x bleed prep, the Bonfire creates unblockable pulse 9x burns with those 10x bleeds applying on the burns, and it's like laying a Plaguelands on a very low ICD. No one wants to stand in it, and that unblockable is often the only way to get under massive anti-projectile uptime to maintain offensive pressure to be able to actually kill something like an Ele or Mesmer.

Also, about Soulbeast and that Smoke Assault. Shock Aura knocks you out of Smoke Assault. I mean in all seriousness, everything Ele does, counters everything that Ranger does. There is no way around it other than the Ranger being a significantly stronger player than the Ele. We've ran enough organized 1v1 at this point and this is always the result of Ranger vs. Ele matches.

 

 

That's a good analysis. I'm surprised that Shocking Aura stuns you while you are in an evade frame. I would think that evade frames take precedence over the stun. Perhaps that is a change that needs to happen and one that would reign in Cata without hard number changes.

[Abyssisis.3971]

15 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That's a good analysis. I'm surprised that Shocking Aura stuns you while you are in an evade frame. I would think that evade frames take precedence over the stun. Perhaps that is a change that needs to happen and one that would reign in Cata without hard number changes.

Indeed, that’s how it should work, but it doesn’t. 🤦‍♂️

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

56 minutes ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

Indeed, that’s how it should work, but it doesn’t. 🤦‍♂️

Sounds like making it work the way it should would be enough of a change to reign in some of Cata's performance then.

[Sahne.6950]

48 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Sounds like making it work the way it should would be enough of a change to reign in some of Cata's performance then.

but but.... that would mean i cant just stun a rev out of his sword 3.....  UNACCEPTABLE /s

Edited January 27, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[apharma.3741]

Shocking aura has always behaved like this, it's just there's very few skills that attack while evading...or at least there used to be. It also goes through blur!

Did you also know it doesn't stun you from over 240 range?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura_(effect)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, apharma.3741 said:

Shocking aura has always behaved like this, it's just there's very few skills that attack while evading...or at least there used to be. It also goes through blur!

Did you also know it doesn't stun you from over 240 range?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura_(effect)

Yeah, we know that part, it just odd that being in evade frames doesn't supersede the stun.

 

[Sahne.6950]

19 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Shocking aura has always behaved like this, it's just there's very few skills that attack while evading...or at least there used to be. It also goes through blur!

Did you also know it doesn't stun you from over 240 range?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura_(effect)

It also stuns people out of their blocks, should you stay in their aoes / or lingering effects like cata hammer3.... 👀

 

Oh god why am i doing this... 😄

Edited January 27, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

It also stuns people out of their blocks, should you stay in their aoes / lingering effects.... 👀

Oh god why am i doing this 😄

Its like me, a warrior main, recommending that the Boon Corruption priority be changed to have a table with Stability near the top knowing full well that it will hard counter warrior.

Some changes are just better for the game as a whole and can be down without changing the hard numbers on a class.

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah, we know that part, it just odd that being in evade frames doesn't supersede the stun.

 

It's what is applying the stun that matters, shocking aura stuns on attack, that means it's your damage that triggers it. Your evade won't count because only a few skills let you evade while attacking in core when it was created. There's likely a back end reason like it simply doesn't do an evade check.

[apharma.3741]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Its like me, a warrior main, recommending that the Boon Corruption priority be changed to have a table with Stability near the top knowing full well that it will hard counter warrior.

Some changes are just better for the game as a whole and can be down without changing the hard numbers on a class.

I just don't think that shocking aura needs changes when it can be countered by stability, medium range and the ele still takes damage.
What needs addressing is the aura spam on catalyst not the auras themselves.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

It's what is applying the stun that matters, shocking aura stuns on attack, that means it's your damage that triggers it. Your evade won't count because only a few skills let you evade while attacking in core when it was created. There's likely a back end reason like it simply doesn't do an evade check.

The passive CCs like Shock Aura or Engi Shield bypass everything as a priority effect for whatever reason. Engi Shield will also knock you out of an evade frame like Smoke Assault or trigger when you try to use something like Lightning Reflexes that for whatever reason, they never removed the small damage proc off of.

I've always said these passive CCs were unhealthy for the game. They create too many balance issues vs. classes that rely on evades as part of their mandatory defense cycles.

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The passive CCs like Shock Aura or Engi Shield bypass everything as a priority effect for whatever reason. Engi Shield will also knock you out of an evade frame like Smoke Assault or trigger when you try to use something like Lightning Reflexes that for whatever reason, they never removed the small damage proc off of.

I've always said these passive CCs were unhealthy for the game. They create too many balance issues vs. classes that rely on evades as part of their mandatory defense cycles.

Mr Boyer I am well aware of that, static shield is very likely to be coded exactly like shocking aura with the exception that you're blocking so take no damage. Read what I put, your damage is the trigger. When shocking aura and static shield were created there was only 2 or 3 evades that did some damage so it wasn't an issue. Not sure I would call it a passive stun, you are in full control (mostly) of if you get stunned by shocking aura and static shield unless you are mid UA or smoke assault but that's a counter to a skill that's basically stacked.
 

Like I say, the problem isn't the aura, the problem is being able to have it every 12s. We get it, you hate shocking aura due to lightning reflexes, just keep asking the devs to remove the damage instead of nerfing one of the few defences core d/d ele has.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Not sure I would call it a passive stun

Although you could argue that an Engi Static Shield is a reactive CC rather than passive, as he needs to stand in an animation while it happens, Shock Aura is definitely a passive effect. The Ele prebuffs it and is able to fully use all other animation skills while it is active. Also in terms of it effecting other party members, the other party members don't even know it's happening and neither does the player attacking those party members. Someone is in a team fight striking a Necro that has 25% health left, and then the Necro's Ele casts Shock Aura and the player striking the Necro gets CC'd because the Necro is now playing with a passive aura effect. There is no tell for this. Even if you're watching the Ele 100% of the time, all of his methods to cast Shock Aura have little to no tells at all outside of the Shock Aura icon on someone's UI that you have a split second to notice before finishing your DPS combo.

Every time an Ele casts Shock Aura it's like he's hitting all opponents in the team fight with at least 1x if not 2x Earth Shakers.

These auras are overtuned and long overdue for nerfing, both Sock Aura and Mag Aura. Shock Aura could use an overhaul like Lan has been saying, where it does not knock you out of evade frames, and Mag Aura just needs a lower duration in general.

[apharma.3741]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Although you could argue that an Engi Static Shield is a reactive CC rather than passive, as he needs to stand in an animation while it happens, Shock Aura is definitely a passive effect. The Ele prebuffs it and is able to fully use all other animation skills while it is active. Also in terms of it effecting other party members, the other party members don't even know it's happening and neither does the player attacking those party members. Someone is in a team fight striking a Necro that has 25% health left, and then the Necro's Ele casts Shock Aura and the player striking the Necro gets CC'd because the Necro is now playing with a passive aura effect. There is no tell for this. Even if you're watching the Ele 100% of the time, all of his methods to cast Shock Aura have little to no tells at all outside of the Shock Aura icon on someone's UI that you have a split second to notice before finishing your DPS combo.

Every time an Ele casts Shock Aura it's like he's hitting all opponents in the team fight with at least 1x if not 2x Earth Shakers.

These auras are overtuned and long overdue for nerfing, both Sock Aura and Mag Aura. Shock Aura could use an overhaul like Lan has been saying, where it does not knock you out of evade frames, and Mag Aura just needs a lower duration in general.

I think you and I have a very different idea of passive. To me a passive is something that required absolutely no user interaction, a good example is pet CC or the old traits that activated a defensive skill at X% health. The enemy also has to hit you with an attack and it has 2 very easy and reasonably available counters: >240 range and stability. So no I don't think it qualifies for passive.
There is only 1 way to give shocking aura to an ally from ele WITHOUT any animation, tell or telegraph of intent, the dagger skill shocking aura.

Rebound has a big delay, sound effect, voice line and animation.
Air overload, this is so big you can't miss it.

Arcane resurrection you can kind of see it coming, as soon as you know they have the trait you know it's coming.
Runes all require you to cast a heal or elite and all of them have animations and cast times.

Elemental Epitome is tied to a combo so you know it's coming.

 

Ele needs a defence like shocking aura due to it's low base health and armour, this is why they have it on the melee weapon instead of extra evades and blocks. Once again the problem isn't the auras, it's that catalyst can spam them out every 12s. In the above elemental epitome, you know they're going to get an aura but short of preventing an ele from getting off the combo (hard due to perma stab and cleanses out the wazoo) you can't stop them. This is where the problem lies.

They're only long overdue for you because many people know you've had an axe to grind about these since you decided sic'em soulbeast was your thing and these 2 auras shut you down.

[Abyssisis.3971]

6 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I just don't think that shocking aura needs changes when it can be countered by stability, medium range and the ele still takes damage.
What needs addressing is the aura spam on catalyst not the auras themselves.

Evades should take priority over its passive stun proc. 

[Lucentfir.7430]

On 1/26/2023 at 11:34 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That's a good analysis. I'm surprised that Shocking Aura stuns you while you are in an evade frame. I would think that evade frames take precedence over the stun. Perhaps that is a change that needs to happen and one that would reign in Cata without hard number changes.

I think it's mainly because evading isn't classified as a true invuln, a reason why you can't evade through things like Ring/Line of Warding, Dragon's Maw. This happens all the time with psuedo defensive, shocking aura goes through blocks(experience using shelter with Smiter's Boon), Blurred Frenzy, Instant Reflexes, Vengeful Hammers + Dodge, Vindicator Dodge etc. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 1/26/2023 at 12:44 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

traps are bad to use on any & all condi ranger variants in modern patching.

I can attest from experience this is true. Ranger traps only work when messing around in unranked, against people who panic press their cleanses when eating a few cover condis, so I can successfully immob+cc them to eat the entire duration of the trap. Incidentally it also works against any new player who just figured out how to chain some blocks, not realizing that trap pulses are unblockable.

I began running them purely to have a couple extra unblockables, and am stubbornly sticking to it to try to find some use cases. Thus far, I confirm that against anyone who has any idea of how to move their character around, ranger traps are too small and too weak. I think it would be interesting if the trap-buffing trait could actually proc prot/resil/stab/SOMETHING that helps the ranger stand on point for a few seconds longer, but as it is any trap-using ranger is basically reduced to a weak troll.

I just think some reasonable ICDs that slow down ele's ability to continuously close any windows of opportunity would help a lot. I wouldn't mind that ele retains the ability to pressure people while keeping those windows closed, just so long as the windows are there and exploitable.

[Leonidrex.5649]

Shocking aura should be consumed after it triggers.
as of right now its a god-mode, im sorry but its true.
also the projectile denial is kittening stupid, I cant imagine using any projectiles in 2+ cata meta, playing against 2x necro with coro was bad enough but cata denial is so stupid you might as well have projectile skills greyed out and unusable.
just my 2 cents

[apharma.3741]

Is shocking aura or magnetic aura a problem on:
Core ele?
Tempest?
Weaver?

 

A case can be made for tempest but there's counterplay to air overload. The problem lies almost exclusively with catalyst and 2 traits in particular due to how much access it gives to the strongest auras and stability.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Epitome
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Staunch_Auras

How to fix?
Elemental Epitome - Only auras gained in earth and water attunement grant stability.
Elemental Epitome stays the same but your combo auras change depending on the GM trait you pick.
Staunch Auras: Light Aura
Empowered Empowerment: Fire aura
Sphere Specialist: Probably dark aura but I'd like to see how Chaos aura performs, might make an otherwise unattractive trait better.