Siege and Supply Changes in Context

[loverboy.9180]

I think their heart is in the right place. I also think they don't know enough about their own game to know how to fix it. How many of these people were part of the team that designed this place? Probably very few if any at all. 

[Mlatic.8925]

All these changes just improving life for K-trains and K-trains don't fight, they want only easy way to flip stuff. Its hard enough or nearly impossible to defend keeps already now where you can't even stand on walls at all cause you will get instantly blasted into afterlife. Not really surprising, A-net doesn't understand their own game mode at all and on top of that if some of them playing wvw they run in K-trains.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:17 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

So yeah, EoTM.  Because that worked so well the first time.

Gotejjeken, this isn't pointed at you, you just raise the issue. EoTM's issues were with players gaming the system. With the WR system that might be just opening the same door to all the other maps. Mega guilds that decide to span across multiple of guilds will now have the same option once they find themselves in different worlds/shards. Instead of fight, just get the guild leads to circle each other around the map. I admit besides keeping what we take that is one of the issues I have in nerfing defense. Still remember being in some EoTM maps where people were told to get off the map if they were defending because it was arranged that their would be no defenders. That's wasn't a map design issue, just people finding ways to muck with the system. Nothing better than to be told you are trolling when trying to keep a structure your side had. So yes, siege is meant to aid in defense and should be, but what we had before was a determent versus now its a wet noodle. 

[Biermeister.4678]

Woot get to build a Golem army in spawn just to back cap all the towers and keeps. 

Bali is useless against Flame Rams because of line of sight.

They nerfed arrow carts years ago because they would kill siege and kill players Ranger's does more damage than an Arrow cart since the nerf.

 the whole idea of door cata and trebs was to slow down the assault on the gate by a 50-man boon ball, most people on the rams do not use iron hide when hitting the gate 3-1-1-1-1-3 times that by 8 rams gate is down in under a minute, door cat might get three shots off .

Smaller groups will use cata's to attack a structure because it cost less supply and is quicker,

The reduction in supply will just make the structures empty most of the time when the K Train zerg passes by to resupply and for the Dolyaks having greater capacity is moot, a team has to hold a supply camp, other than one server the rest do not have the population to do that.

The changes will not increase fights in structures but enable the 50-60 man K-Train, Scouts will not try and defend they will make the call out and port, wait for the map to clear and back-cap. 

 

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

Anet continues to cater to the boon ball.   Its where they play when they're on so its all the y do anything for. 

[Xenesis.6389]

16 minutes ago, Blockhead Magee.3092 said:

Anet continues to cater to the boon ball.   Its where they play when they're on so its all the y do anything for. 

nods nods nods

 

 

[Sviel.7493]

Part of that might be that people flock to an Anet tag whenever one pops up.  When they did their guild tag-along thing many years ago, the smallest they could manage was a 'havoc' team of about 20 people.

 

It's probably more accurate to say that they only play on offense.  When they're streaming or in game as a group, they're incentivized to make their own content rather than hoping that other people attack their stuff.  I mean, I'd watch someone maintain supply lines and repair and such if they explained why each action was important, but that's probably not going to be the most popular stream.

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

nods nods nods

 

 

Is that Darkbringerr?

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:39 AM, Tavin.7450 said:

good contribution 🙂 I'm curious how it will change the WVW

as the OP said, it basically won't

blobs building a ram to take zero dmg is easier then, the warclaw skill is as useless as it ever was.

the ballista only may have any very few new angles after all, u need to be able to target your aim, so further range may or maybe not of any use

only for single players 111ing down siege after killing a group is gonna be more kitten

 

less supply changes not much in the end. supply only gets low if people waste it. this gets easier now, but is by no means a impactful change. fights are won by mashing buttons on your keyboard, not by siege

_____________

@Chaba.5410 unlikely. saw darkbringer some times on NA, he/she/it was rather randomly clouding around with some "dances with demons" reped character and died left and right in some bombs. also rather sure they didn't play FB

but yeah, u won't see anet peepos much on empty server. i mean they overall are a rare sight, even more so on EU.

Edited January 30, 2023 by kamikharzeeh.8016

[apharma.3741]

On 1/28/2023 at 7:36 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

The context is that people are lazy kittens at scouting and will now happily blaim objective nerfs for their own inability to intercept enemy threats in time and defend objectives because they are too busy picking their navels in spawn waiting for EBG queue.

Excuse me, I'm not waiting for EB queue, I'm waiting for my spawn camp to come off timer so I can capture it with the expedience of Hermes for our glorious team. Then go capture the other spawn camp as those pesky enemies keep taking it off us. If only I didn't have to keep flipping these camps every 5-10 minutes, oh well.

[Zeria.3578]

just remove all the upgrades and let them be perma paper, simple

[Xenesis.6389]

49 minutes ago, Zeria.3578 said:

just remove all the upgrades and let them be perma paper, simple

Just make them like eotm objectives is what you're saying. 🤭🍿

[Sviel.7493]

We have more details on the changes now: 

 

Anet says the purpose of these changes is "to encourage direct player vs. player conflict in fights over objectives while taking care to not take the fun (or the teeth) out of objective defense."

 

While not mentioned in the preview, they say they have fixed certain CC skills knocking players off of Burning Oil despite having the WvW mastery that is supposed to prevent that.  Being able to stay on the Oil may make it possible to live long enough to get a few shots off before it's destroyed.  Previously, you would get feared off and lose your damage reduction which would mean a quick death.  On the other hand, rams have had their health increased by 100% and now an additional 25% since Burning Oil was made.  Not surprisingly, this means that Oil damage is far too low to actually kill Rams in time to save the gate.  I'd love to test the exact time at some point, though I'm not sure how.

Per the Supply changes, they did not actually increase the amount delivered from Yaks to anywhere except SMC unless that change was left out of the patch notes. They shaved off 100 (20%) of the maximum base Supply and 300 (33%) of the upgraded Supply for Keeps.  This is pretty huge, but currently Supply doesn't have much impact on defense because you can't actually use it to stop your enemies.  It is key for repairs and that's probably what they're targeting.

 

Camps now hold enough Supply to build 1 additional piece of Superior siege.  We'll likely see even more obnoxious siege drops in the future though this may be offset somewhat if zergs were draining allied Keeps to 0 to fund the war effort.

 

They increased the damage of side Keep lord on DBL, but this is after they drastically increased the cooldowns on their actually "dangerous" skills.  They're still much weaker than they started out but I guess it's...something?  Middle Keep lord now can't be permanently CCd, but he isn't exactly a threat so I don't think this is going to change much.  Still, it's a great bug fix.

 

---

 

Overall, I think this patch is a mixed bag.  Perhaps my standards are very low, but it seems like they're at least trying to do something and that's kind of encouraging.  I don't think that promoting one-push objective caps is going to lead to "direct player vs. player conflict" nor do I think it's wise to go this route in a 24/7 game mode with inevitably uneven team sizes for much of the match.

 

Mostly, I just don't really understand why they feel that actively defended Towers and Keeps need to breached more easily.  Perhaps the phrase "actively defended" means "defended with numbers equal to the attackers?"  If their goal is to have direct PvP fights in situations where direct PvP is actually possible, they would be better served by increasing the incentive to fight in the field as opposed to letting enemies breach before combat.  They sort of hit on this by making repairs harder to do via Supply reduction but making it easier to just throw your entire server at the gate means that breaching Keeps isn't going to be a matter of draining resources first and thus there is little incentive to minimize the need for repairs. 

 

Their desired play pattern seems to be that you easily breach the Keep and, ideally, have a fight at the lord.  If you wipe, it's now harder for your foes to repair everything quickly.  This works in a server vs. server situation with perpetually equal numbers, but what do they expect to happen if one side has an extra 10 people?  Do they just get to roll the whole map?  Does Anet expect their opponents to rally rather than log off?  And what happens when the third server easily breaches the gates somewhere else at the same time?

 

A better approach would be to give defense more teeth but also double down on reducing the ability to repair siege damage.  Rather than making every assault end in the lord's room, give assaulters the ability to create meaningful results without fully flipping the objective.  It's frustrating to attack something and see it instantly repaired by the responding enemy zerg.  That promotes a mindset that if you didn't flip it, you failed and accomplished nothing.  Thus, despite being the person who does the repairs, I agree that the ability of an objective to recover after a hit could be toned down.

 

Anyway, they also fixed a bunch of decade-old bugs so we are officially in a new era.  There is a lot of work that remains to be done.  Somehow, the removal of miniatures gives me hope that they may actually do it.

[Daxia.1425]

On 1/28/2023 at 4:40 PM, Gorani.7205 said:

The upcoming patch does nothing to encourage scouting & calling out for re-enforcements. It just pushes more of those still doing that to abandon the structure and prepare for a recap in a few minutes & more waiting at safe spots to get back to "a spawn camp or veteran kill".

 

I fear that too. Scouting been always a nice aspect, defending as well. 2 rams and 2 shield gens and there isnt much you can do. Disable the gens is always harder as they are placed to far from the wall to sort of safely disable.

Reading those notes and it feels so pve focused...

I liked the initial post btw 🙂

Edited February 1, 2023 by Daxia.1425