Why keep it simple when you can needlessly complicate it?

[Electric.1743]

After playing a bit with the new (aka "old") Mantras I am left wondering why Anet rolled back the 2021 QoL upgrade to Mantras.

What the old version had going for it though was simplicity.

My favorite tip for newcomers wanting to look into a healer/support has always been (H)FB. The fact that your primary boon just came from spamming 3 slots off CD (at least for beginners) helped alot of newbies to "free up" brain capacity for the other aspects of supporting, like reacting to mechanics with specific boons or healing out of position teammates.

There is hardly an argument to be made that the QoL version was OP as this could have easily been remedied by just nerfing cooldowns on specific spells (MoF is now probably even more insane than it was before). And the times HFB as a whole was op are long gone (how many HFBs have you seen in your HT CM runs?).

This whole change feels like anet is just messing with random elements to make it look like they care about the balance.

Maybe if Anet focused a bit on making the elementary mechanics of the game more accessible there might a bigger raid scene. The last few months have been overall a downward spiral in accessibility. First to fall was Pmech (the goto "babies first DPS") with nerf after nerf until it is now hardly a build anymore. Now it feels like anet is coming after FB, first with the the tome changes (suddenly page-management is a thing a newbie has to think about) and now the Mantras. Where will this stop ?

If the news are true that the playerbase has grown alot in the last few months this should be a sign that people want ACCESSIBLE options to play the game.

Much of the content already has a CM for people that want a challenge.  Maybe it is time to work on that side of the game ? Alot of Raid-CMs are a joke to experienced players anyway, maybe some tweaking there can raise the skill ceiling on GW2 without impacting the floor where newbies have to learn to crawl before they walk. Maybe give the other raids a CM as well and keep the core experience accessible to new players.

Please anet devs, do not scare off the newly arrived ppl with random QoL nerfs like this. We all want this game to flourish.

[Ashford.8540]

I wouldn't say that players want ""accessibility" because the only players that want that are usually 2 thumb andies. What GW2 players actually want can be complex, but they want it simple and straight forward, not conveluted to the point of unplayability which in many way is best represented with a spec like the deadeye.

 

"theoretically" deadeye should be the highest dps class in the game. However, it is such a counter intuitive playstyle, only a handful of players will ever actually break past 35k dps from a Deadeye.

 

The same issue aligns with PMech. Sure, PMech needed to be nerfed, but reasonable players only wanted it nerfed to a state that a mech player would actually haft to put in some effort to get similar or close to similar performance. Instead, PMech was gutted, leaving the condi variant the only playable build. Issue with Condi Mech is that it requires 2 toolkits and the rotation is again, very counter intuitive because it's a very punishing playstyle.

 

Now that the Guard mantras are back, GW2 is creating the same issue yet again, because the new mantras essentially nerfs the amount of charges you can use unless there is a window in which a player can wait 30+ seconds including the recast. Sure your probably going to have some snowcrow benchmark saying it now does x and y more damage, but that will only represent the dps in a perfect environment and will only represent a small percentage of players who are going to be able to pull off the rotation perfectly 100% of the time.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ashford.8540

[Hotride.2187]

I dont know about you but the fb builds I play are the simplest among the builds I play. The mantra rerework didnt change that. Complex is not a word that comes to my mind while on my fb.

[Laxativus.9148]

You are right, it is not complex. It is clunky. It was relatively fine before the November patch if we disregard the Radiant Fire works. But it lost every bit of flow then, and now it became slightly worse.

I guess one could argue for raising the skill-ceiling if a build has exceptional output even when playing less-than-optimal (which I would not say FB had) but they usually end up raising the skill-floor and they do it in such a weird and counter-intuitive way that you just feel uncomfortable playing the profession afterwards. But I guess it accomplishes the goal of "let's pull back the numbers on that build."

Also, this hurts support more than damage dealers. It is one thing to integrate preparation or a long CD into a DPS rotation, (still not a welcome addition, though,) but as support you want your skills to be ready-to-go to handle whatever situation that arises. But in both cases your character should be a tool that you use to overcome a challenge - it should not be part of the challenge itself. To put it into raiding: every glance I throw on my toolbar or my boons/conditions is something that takes me further away from the encounter and closer to fighting a bot, reducing the impact of whatever effort devs put into designing that encounter. But I digressed a bit far. In essence: brain-dead, off-the-cd mantras might have been boring, simple, but having simple skills serves the content by making the player able to focus on the world instead of their character.

[DarkSoul.2348]

Don't agree, if anything it is easier because all the charges now have there on unique and beautiful art work so even if the charge number is small i have a visual of which charge i am on, which doesn't take long to learn imo.So much better than looking at boring same mantra symbols it now connects to the pages mechanic which improves the tombs rework and it is on its way to being a better version of Firebrand, WVW needs tweaking i feel it is too rough atm  with rivers causing the mantras to have to be channeled again.In pve i dont find it clunky and with small tweaking of CDs and maybe channeling speed it should work really well,  it will always feel clunky at first i felt the same way when the rework rolled out, but now i see how this can actually make the spec fun again for by keeping me invested and not just rolling rotations in my sleep which imo is worse even for newbies and casusal players because you get bored  and i feel that the  game allows you to pick builds and skills to play that  with most story and group  pve content in the game and core guardian or firebrands running mostly core skills can be easy to play anyway. I am all in on the improvements of complexity and visual enjoyment of playing a elite spec in guild wars 2,hope they keep it up!!

 

[Jokuc.3478]

Simplicity is what made them poor. Just having boon buttons that you spam off cooldown without any thought going into usage or anything is poor game design and unfun.

Newbies not being able to keep track of mantras and other stuff at the same time is a skill issue not design issue.

Nobody said that the previous mantras were OP, we wanted the revert because they were boring and the old ones were better. Your whole argument about it makes no sense. 

What does HT CM has anything to do with it? lmao.

HFB is one of the best support builds in the game, the reason you don't take it on HTCM is because you want a mobile kiter to do the mechanics, it has nothing to do with the boon or healing capabilities of a firebrand.

"Pmech hardly a build anymore" - most noobs would still do higher damage spamming autos on a pmech than playing say weaver. And if you're not a noob then this doesn't even apply to you cause accessibility and ease of use isn't a problem in the first place.

The playerbase grew because anet changed leadership, did partnership with twitch, launched an expansion and launched on steam with youtubers talking about it. I would hardly think that a simplified game is the reason why it became more popular. It's not something that gathers hype to people who never played the game.

The change to revert mantras is fantastic and I've been asking for this ever since they changed it so I completely disagree.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Jokuc.3478

[Electric.1743]

3 hours ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

Nobody said that the previous mantras were OP, we wanted the revert because they were boring and the old ones were better. Your whole argument about it makes no sense. 

So, instead of spamming all 3 charges you now spam just 2 and then wait for it to refill. At least on HFB the recharge of several seconds where you effectively daze yourself makes it basically never worth spending the last charge anyway. So all anet did was to take 1 charge away from anet and to make much more annoying if you ever accidentally "overstep" your charges. If using only 2 Charges is your idea of how mantras should be you could already just spend 2 charges and keep the third one.

 

There is a reason anet changed the mantras to a more straightforward system back in 2021.

GW2 already is one of the most complicated mainstream MMOs, any change that makes its baseline more accessible to newcomers is a good one.

 

3 hours ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

I would hardly think that a simplified game is the reason why it became more popular. It's not something that gathers hype to people who never played the game.

While it probably does not attract people to the game it very much is what keeps them there. GW2 has no gear treadmill for ppl to grind on so instanced content is basically the only late-game activity in the game and if you look at how gatekept the GW2 raid scene is already we definitely don't need another thing for the newbie FB to worry about while learning to not get ported on his first ever VG clear.

 

While this Mantra change alone will probably not change that much for the individual player, it's another brick in the wall between a newbie and his first kill. Together with the other almost hostile changes to other beginner classes (for example mechanical genius' range paired with the mechs abysmal ai) the whole direction the game is moving in feels wrong to me.

Quo vadis, GW2?

 

PS: And credit where credit is due: There are some positive changes as well, like emboldened which gives first timers the confidence to just walk into a raidwing and give it a go.

[Ragnar.4257]

2 hours ago, Electric.1743 said:

So, instead of spamming all 3 charges you now spam just 2 and then wait for it to refill.

Only if you play content which never challenges you.

 

19 hours ago, Ashford.8540 said:

the new mantras essentially nerfs the amount of charges you can use unless there is a window in which a player can wait 30+ seconds including the recast. 

And how do you figure that, when the recharge rate is exactly the same? You use a charge every 12s and you'll never run out. Same as before. Only way you run out now is if you spam all 3 instantly, which was never a good move anyway.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ragnar.4257

[oOCitadelOo.2381]

What I've noticed are those who champion this change, usually has minimal experience in the wvw/pvp and not realizing the dynamics these current changes to mantras are causing, including the impacts which increased the limitations.

[Zhaeli.5416]

17 hours ago, oOCitadelOo.2381 said:

What I've noticed are those who champion this change, usually has minimal experience in the wvw/pvp and not realizing the dynamics these current changes to mantras are causing, including the impacts which increased the limitations.

That's what I'm seeing in these threads, and wondering if people aren't being more clear if they are unhappy from the WvW perspective.  

On that note, why the heck roll back this change on WvW FBs?  You already have some guilds PAYING players in heavy loot bags to thank/intice people to play FB. (With thanks to the many dps players generous donations.)   So why roll back a QOL in that game mode only and aggravate the p out of those players, too?  😒

Edited February 19, 2023 by Zhaeli.5416

[DarkSoul.2348]

15 hours ago, Zhaeli.5416 said:

That's what I'm seeing in these threads, and wondering if people aren't being more clear if they are unhappy from the WvW perspective.  

On that note, why the heck roll back this change on WvW FBs?  You already have some guilds PAYING players in heavy loot bags to thank/intice people to play FB. (With thanks to the many dps players generous donations.)   So why roll back a QOL in that game mode only and aggravate the p out of those players, too?  😒

+1 sometimes its confusing what game mode ppl are playing or having issues with the auto cast when out of combat is not in the WVW and probably pvp build so compared to my pve game play ,that alone made it a bit tedious tbh.WVW and pvp can have there own tweaks which is probably what they will do in future patches

 

[Hotride.2187]

On 2/18/2023 at 12:37 PM, oOCitadelOo.2381 said:

What I've noticed are those who champion this change, usually has minimal experience in the wvw/pvp and not realizing the dynamics these current changes to mantras are causing, including the impacts which increased the limitations.

FB doesnt exist in spvp. No idea why you even mention it.

I've done a lot more zerg fights with the final charge than I have without it. And still I have done a lot of zerg fights without the final charge. It was better and more enjoyable to play with the final charge than without.

I'm dragon in conquest and gold scout in wvw, I do fractals every day. On my fb I'm at around 2.3k hours now. Dont tell me how I dont know what the impact in wvw is. You didnt even lose a stunbreak on mantra of liberation...

[Barraind.7324]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:09 PM, Electric.1743 said:

Why?

 

Have you met our current balance lead?   Complicating things for no real reason is both his legacy and go-to.   Dude was the lead on Catalyst and Untamed design, if that helps put his style in context. 

 

People were like "we hate the guy who streamlined things" and forgot the opposite of that is even worse. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Barraind.7324

[Ragnar.4257]

On 2/18/2023 at 11:37 AM, oOCitadelOo.2381 said:

What I've noticed are those who champion this change, usually has minimal experience in the wvw/pvp and not realizing the dynamics these current changes to mantras are causing, including the impacts which increased the limitations.

Meanwhile, me that exclusively plays PvP and occasionally WvW (and have been doing so since launch), very much in favour of this change.

The prime use-case for using the final mantra charge is to secure a kill in a 1v1 or 2v2 scenario, where securing the kill makes having to re-cast worth the investment, or to clutch a 1v1 that is going down to the wire, or to make it through an all-or-nothing push in WvW, or to get out of an "oh kitten" moment where you get focused by 4 people and buy enough time for your team to peel.

Honestly its PvE where the benefits of final-charge are questionable, really weird take to think that this is more for PvE than PvP. As far as I can see its the opposite, its mostly the casual PvErs who don't like this, the people who don't want to have to keep track of multiple things and just want to press button every 10s with no thought required. The whole reason they removed final-charge in the first place was to support casual PvErs who complained about having to re-cast when moving maps.

FB basically doesn't exist in PvP since 2020, and part of the reason for that is that instant-cast mantras with zero counterplay are impossible to balance to make them both useful and not obnoxious. As long as mantras had zero-counterplay there was no way they could allow FB to be good in PvP. Now there is actually a viable pathway to re-introduce FB to PvP in such a way that everyone playing against the FB doesn't hate it.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Ragnar.4257

[Laxativus.9148]

"people who don't want to have to keep track of multiple things and just want to press button every 10s with no thought required"

Yes. That is me. And while not getting enjoyment out of mastering a class but rather from overcoming a tough boss is simply my preference, I don't think everything I feel towards this change is simply subjective.

It feels like some players mistake an abundance of options, or an unintuitive gameplay, or a rotation lacking flow for complexity. Kinda like how many argue that piranha bytes' eurojank rpgs are considered challenging when all they are is poorly made. Nobody would praise a hammer without a handle for providing challenge, would they? Even though strictly speaking that is something it would provide in excess.

I feel this change hinders me more than it helps me in beating encounters. That is not something I seek from the character I play. That is all.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Laxativus.9148

[Gaiawolf.8261]

That's my biggest gripe with the recent FB changes, both the tome rework and the mantras. While I've come to terms with the the way tomes work now and appreciate the greater access, there's still too much ICD and icon tracking on the skill bar. They still need to clean that up, and fricken do something with Renewed Justice already. Mantras add to that with tracking charges and states on the bar.

GW2 is an ARPG, not WOW or FF14. Apart from a few CDs and skill combos, skill complexity only serves take my eyes off the field of battle and onto the skill bar, which is not fun for me. I want to feel like I'm in the action and interacting dynamically with my enemy and environment, not managing a database of icons and numbers. 

[Hotride.2187]

51 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

GW2 is an ARPG, not WOW or FF14. Apart from a few CDs and skill combos, skill complexity only serves take my eyes off the field of battle and onto the skill bar, which is not fun for me. I want to feel like I'm in the action and interacting dynamically with my enemy and environment, not managing a database of icons and numbers. 

FB is still very close to the skill floor. If you are playing qcfb, slap on some extra concentration and spam the mantras like you are used to. You'll lose some dmg but quickness uptime will still be 100%. Same for hfb and cfb. You will do your role fine.

If you want to do more, to be more optimal, you'll have to put some effort. Even on fb, as amazing as that sounds.

There are of course builds that are at the skill floor, if learning a simple build is too much.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

FB is still very close to the skill floor. If you are playing qcfb, slap on some extra concentration and spam the mantras like you are used to. You'll lose some dmg but quickness uptime will still be 100%. Same for hfb and cfb. You will do your role fine.

If you want to do more, to be more optimal, you'll have to put some effort. Even on fb, as amazing as that sounds.

There are of course builds that are at the skill floor, if learning a simple build is too much.

It's not so much about the skill floor, although they do keep raising it with these recent changes. That's another issue for the average player, probably?

It's more about where the extra complexity and skill requisite is going. Putting it on the skill bar, or worse behind it in ICDs, makes me feel more like I'm playing a dashboard simulation game, rather than an action RPG. It breaks my immersion in the combat. 

EDIT: This is also why I don't play instanced content much anymore. After getting accustomed to the general scema for how the instance ran, it became more about rote memorization of rotations and mechanics. Boring and gamey.

I mostly play small scale wvw, where all of that goes out the window except for certain skill chains, and OW where I havent explored in a while, so variations mix things up, and I can play off changing situations. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Cuks.8241]

My only gripe is Mantra of Potence. You spam it regardless in pve. And I dont think its ever relevant in pvp. 

[Aelin.9317]

On 2/21/2023 at 2:55 PM, Laxativus.9148 said:

"people who don't want to have to keep track of multiple things and just want to press button every 10s with no thought required"

Yes. That is me. And while not getting enjoyment out of mastering a class but rather from overcoming a tough boss is simply my preference, I don't think everything I feel towards this change is simply subjective.

It feels like some players mistake an abundance of options, or an unintuitive gameplay, or a rotation lacking flow for complexity. Kinda like how many argue that piranha bytes' eurojank rpgs are considered challenging when all they are is poorly made. Nobody would praise a hammer without a handle for providing challenge, would they? Even though strictly speaking that is something it would provide in excess.

I feel this change hinders me more than it helps me in beating encounters. That is not something I seek from the character I play. That is all.

To me part of overcoming a tough boss is mastery of your class and using the options available to you. Being able to put a bit more thought into skill usage is nice. I just wish more classes had the options available to them that firebrand has ^^

 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Got a poll going about this in the Profession group for those who haven't seen.

 

[zealex.9410]

They now have character and that alone is a massive buff to them from their previous forgettable state.