Mantra Revert, one week later

[Kodama.6453]

2 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Dude, that's the exact skill type we are complaining about, mantras. Try to follow the intent of the topic and comments instead of the literal word. Language will work much better for you that way. I get the feeling you are trying to argue just for the sake of argument rather than making a constructive point. Sorry, not interested in that type of discourse.

Also, I played mesmer since beta. Mantras weren't really used back then, even traited. They were largely dead skills, because of the empty channel outside of a few niche skills. There's more to the history of a skill than what you can find on the wiki.

Someone told you that channeled abilities have been in the game since beta. You said "not like FB mantras". I was just pointing out that you are incorrect there, mesmer mantras were there at the start of this game and they worked exactly this way.

Also there are many cast times and attack channels which don't give a benefit while you are channeling, so that point is moot anyway. I don't agree with this "mantras are now self dazes" narrative, you get to channel an ability and get a benefit from it. The benefit is that you get charges for instant cast skills you can freely use after that initial channel.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Gaiawolf.8261]

7 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Also there are many cast times and attack channels which don't give a benefit while you are channeling, so that point is moot anyway.

Which skills besides mantras don't give an effect beyond access to a second skill during or at the end of a channel?

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Which skills besides mantras don't give an effect beyond access to a second skill during or at the end of a channel?

For instance:

• Prepare Pitfall
• Prepare Seal Area
• Prepare Shadow Portal
• Prepare Thousand Needles
• Forage

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Yeah preparations are kinda similar, I think. I never really got familiar with them, so I can't comment on their playstyle or fun factor, or how relevant they are to the feel of mantras. I generally preferred traps, but I can see the benefit of picking when to trigger it.

EDIT: Oh wait. Sorry, I just realized preparations only have 0.5s cast time. Never mind. 😏 
On a further note, I'll rescind all complaints about mantras cast when they go to <1s cast time. I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! Let's do it!

Edited February 28, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Carnifex.3275]

On 2/27/2023 at 5:04 PM, zealex.9410 said:

Mesmer and guard are my two mains, last patch i might as well had put my mantras on aa but now they have so much more character and nuance depending on the mantra and the situation.

Yeah so much more character. You just use 1 less charge and not use the last one. Very nuanced. 😂

Edited March 2, 2023 by Carnifex.3275

[apharma.3741]

13 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Not like FB mantras. Other channeled skills actually do something rather than dazing yourself for a skill used later. Overloads are the epitome of a channeled skill done well. They have a fun visual and gameplay effect during the channel, can be traited for additional effects during the channel, can be interrupted for counter play, and have an impressive capstone to the channel.

FB mantras by contrast.... are the direct opposite, and therefore the epitome of a channeled skill done poorly. 

You're not "dazing yourself for a skill used later" mesmer mantras have an effect on charging because they are meant to be charged more frequently.
In contrast FB mantras auto charge themselves out of combat, have extra charges and the recharge on each count is mostly low so you don't have to charge them. If you're recharging a FB mantra in a fight you played badly and you should be punished.
These mantras are not designed to be used the same. Once again.
FB should not be charging mantras, ever.

[Kodama.6453]

8 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Yeah preparations are kinda similar, I think. I never really got familiar with them, so I can't comment on their playstyle or fun factor, or how relevant they are to the feel of mantras. I generally preferred traps, but I can see the benefit of picking when to trigger it.

EDIT: Oh wait. Sorry, I just realized preparations only have 0.5s cast time. Never mind. 😏 
On a further note, I'll rescind all complaints about mantras cast when they go to <1s cast time. I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! Let's do it!

And this is what's called "moving the goalpost fallacy". No point in discussing anything with you if you will just keep moving the goalpost to push your narrative of "mantras are self dazes".

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

You're not "dazing yourself for a skill used later" mesmer mantras have an effect on charging because they are meant to be charged more frequently.
In contrast FB mantras auto charge themselves out of combat, have extra charges and the recharge on each count is mostly low so you don't have to charge them. If you're recharging a FB mantra in a fight you played badly and you should be punished.
These mantras are not designed to be used the same. Once again.
FB should not be charging mantras, ever.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear there. I was comparing FB mantras to other types of channeled skills. I like some of the effects on the mesmer mantra charging and think they go a long way to fixing them. I would still prefer the effects while channeling or a shorter cast time, but they help a lot. 

I seriously doubt the devs intend for the FB final charges to never be used throughout combat. They even designed a trait around refunding pages when doing so. It's meant to be a decision point for when it's worth it or not to spend it. As the balance sits right now, I agree it's rarely worth it, which is the problem many of us have with the current design. It's mostly just an ammo nerf from the previous iteration (except for the elite skill). 

[apharma.3741]

32 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear there. I was comparing FB mantras to other types of channeled skills. I like some of the effects on the mesmer mantra charging and think they go a long way to fixing them. I would still prefer the effects while channeling or a shorter cast time, but they help a lot. 

I seriously doubt the devs intend for the FB final charges to never be used throughout combat. They even designed a trait around refunding pages when doing so. It's meant to be a decision point for when it's worth it or not to spend it. As the balance sits right now, I agree it's rarely worth it, which is the problem many of us have with the current design. It's mostly just an ammo nerf from the previous iteration (except for the elite skill). 

Fair enough the final charge trait isn't exclusively for the final charge though, you get a CDR for the ammo skills which is invaluable and then it adds a little extra if you had to use the final charge. The final charge is as you say a decision, if you think it'll finish the fight, use it or if you have to you use it. If not you hold on for the recharge. The biggest issue is often how much the mantras have been nerfed because the charges are often quite stacked and have no CD between use. Looking through and comparing the final charges some are hilariously bad due to nerfs and some are still good.

I don't think it's better or worse, only a different flavour and I'd need to play around with FB mantras (been busy making predator with my engineer) to see how they perform with final charge and ooc.
Edit: Oh they moved this or was I baited into being in a thread on all professions?

Edited February 28, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Waffles.5632]

10 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Fair enough the final charge trait isn't exclusively for the final charge though, you get a CDR for the ammo skills which is invaluable and then it adds a little extra if you had to use the final charge. The final charge is as you say a decision, if you think it'll finish the fight, use it or if you have to you use it. If not you hold on for the recharge. The biggest issue is often how much the mantras have been nerfed because the charges are often quite stacked and have no CD between use. Looking through and comparing the final charges some are hilariously bad due to nerfs and some are still good.

I don't think it's better or worse, only a different flavour and I'd need to play around with FB mantras (been busy making predator with my engineer) to see how they perform with final charge and ooc.
Edit: Oh they moved this or was I baited into being in a thread on all professions?

There's two threads one in mes, one here.

Also I don't like the final charge on mantras for FB's because in any champion+ fight, you're never using the final charge. So to me that is bad design because in those fights you're always getting punished no matter if u choose to expend final charge or not. I don't play FB anymore really, but this was my biggest gripe back then too. I always felt punished for using final charge so it's like why even have this big powerful last charge if in practice you're never using it you know?

Edited February 28, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Gaiawolf.8261]

22 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Fair enough the final charge trait isn't exclusively for the final charge though, you get a CDR for the ammo skills which is invaluable and then it adds a little extra if you had to use the final charge. The final charge is as you say a decision, if you think it'll finish the fight, use it or if you have to you use it. If not you hold on for the recharge. The biggest issue is often how much the mantras have been nerfed because the charges are often quite stacked and have no CD between use. Looking through and comparing the final charges some are hilariously bad due to nerfs and some are still good.

I don't think it's better or worse, only a different flavour and I'd need to play around with FB mantras (been busy making predator with my engineer) to see how they perform with final charge and ooc.
Edit: Oh they moved this or was I baited into being in a thread on all professions?

The poll from this thread got copied into the mesmer subform. 

Can't really disagree with any of that. The only thing I feel that's worse is the long CD followed by the long cast. It just feels clunky no matter what the metrics tell about performance. I didn't even make up that "self daze" phrase, and I know it's not an actual daze 😅, but when I read it, it accurately reflected my feeling when charging FB mantras during a long combat. 

[Leo G.4501]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:17 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

Anet should decide what they consider "identity" first and foremost. 

Personally I think there's merit to keep Mantras unique as opposed to being ammo based spam skills.

 

1. What I think would be great is if all Mantras were standardized with the same format: Charge > Charge > Final Charge

2. Do away with the dumb channeled cast, it has no place in an action game like Gw2. 

3. Just make Mantras have a cooldown after Final Skill is cast, but in the event the player does not cast the Final Skill, their Skill 1 and 2 will recharge 50% faster.
 

 

Let's take a Mantra example: Mantra of Pain. 

Charge 1 and 2 : Power Spike, grants 5 might per cast and inflicts 3 vuln stacks 

Final Charge : more powerful version of Power Spike with more vuln stacks

 

If all 3 charges are cast, it will go into a full 15s cooldown. However if Final Skill isn't cast, the recharge time for Charge 1 and 2 would simply be 5s. 

That's basically exactly how mantras were before reverting them to the old version.

 

If I were to suggest a compromise: take your idea but remove the whole "don't use final charge and the other charges recover faster". Keep a base recharge for charges that is static. Add in that, if you use the final charge you have 2 options.

1. Wait for the mantra to recover automatically which will require a long cool down for that final charge and then normal time for each subsequent charge one by one.

2. Just cast the long animation mantra to reset all charges at the end of the cast.

 

 

 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Leo G.4501 said:

That's basically exactly how mantras were before reverting them to the old version.

 

If I were to suggest a compromise: take your idea but remove the whole "don't use final charge and the other charges recover faster". Keep a base recharge for charges that is static. Add in that, if you use the final charge you have 2 options.

1. Wait for the mantra to recover automatically which will require a long cool down for that final charge and then normal time for each subsequent charge one by one.

2. Just cast the long animation mantra to reset all charges at the end of the cast.

 

 

 

Oh I like that! That's a good compromise, an elegant solution, and a decision point for the player. The hallmarks of good game design.

So basically, after the final charge and the skill goes on a long CD, the player gets an option to go through the long cast to reset it early? Maybe allow the charge animation after about half of the CD has expired? But if they go through the whole CD it resets on its own? That's a neat idea. 

[zealex.9410]

On 2/28/2023 at 3:43 AM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Dude, that's the exact skill type we are complaining about, mantras. Try to follow the intent of the topic and comments instead of the literal word. Language will work much better for you that way. I get the feeling you are trying to argue just for the sake of argument rather than making a constructive point. Sorry, not interested in that type of discourse.

Also, I played mesmer since beta. Mantras weren't really used back then, even traited. They were largely dead skills, because of the empty channel outside of a few niche skills. There's more to the history of a skill than what you can find on the wiki.

Rf also "dazed" you for longer than mantras do with quickness. Its not like if you are channeling a mantra you are doing nothing, you still have acess to all your instant cast skills so for example if during your flame mantra channel theres alot of condi preassure you can assist with reso from heal mantra or if theres a cc you can stab mantra, you can also use any of the shouts.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

43 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Rf also "dazed" you for longer than mantras do with quickness. Its not like if you are channeling a mantra you are doing nothing, you still have acess to all your instant cast skills so for example if during your flame mantra channel theres alot of condi preassure you can assist with reso from heal mantra or if theres a cc you can stab mantra, you can also use any of the shouts.

It's a metaphor for a feeling, not an actual mechanic.

Are you talking about Renewed Focus? Because that skill makes you invulnerable while channeling and restores all pages. So yeah, if I was invulnerable while channeling mantras, I'd recind all complaints about them. And then some. I'd start singing praises and even saying they'd be OP. 

[zealex.9410]

4 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

It's a metaphor for a feeling, not an actual mechanic.

Are you talking about Renewed Focus? Because that skill makes you invulnerable while channeling and restores all pages. So yeah, if I was invulnerable while channeling mantras, I'd recind all complaints about them. And then some. I'd start singing praises and even saying they'd be OP. 

Is this about survivability? Because with movement (wasd) you can deal with almost all mechanics and then you also have other mantras and shouts to cover you further. The mantras are very strong now and instand which makes channeling them a counterbalance and expression of skill and encounter knowledge. They dont even slow you you move with the same speed, i really dont see tge massive concerns in pve.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

47 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Is this about survivability? Because with movement (wasd) you can deal with almost all mechanics and then you also have other mantras and shouts to cover you further. The mantras are very strong now and instand which makes channeling them a counterbalance and expression of skill and encounter knowledge. They dont even slow you you move with the same speed, i really dont see tge massive concerns in pve.

Survival is certainly an issue in competitive modes, especially roaming or small groups. Charging usually needs to be covered by burning a CD on another skill. 

Otherwise, it's probably not much a performance issue rather than it just feels like a clunky step to go through that doesn't provide any fun itself. It just prepares you for fun later. 

[Leo G.4501]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

So yeah, if I was invulnerable while channeling mantras, I'd recind all complaints about them. And then some. I'd start singing praises and even saying they'd be OP. 

 

That could be a mechanic for a specific set of mantras and balanced with that in mind, i.e. if Warrior gets mantras, maybe they can dodge during channeling and have a trait that also pulses endurance while channeling. You'd then want to balance the effects of what the charges do... Maybe with cooldowns so it takes a bit longer to dump the charges or something. That also give you options since you can still technically attack during by dodging into them.

[zealex.9410]

2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Survival is certainly an issue in competitive modes, especially roaming or small groups. Charging usually needs to be covered by burning a CD on another skill. 

Otherwise, it's probably not much a performance issue rather than it just feels like a clunky step to go through that doesn't provide any fun itself. It just prepares you for fun later. 

Yeah but the channeling was introduced to balance the mantras because instant cast abilities with no animation or windup are unhealthy in competitive. channeling and covering that channel introduces more nuance in competitive making you think of your cds, positioning and enemy positioning and cds and all the mantras are very worth their channel times currenrly.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

24 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

the mantras are very worth their channel times currenrly.

This seems to be a very controversial subject. There is certainly not any agreement on this at the moment, which may be the heart of the debate.

From my own personal bias, I'll add that counting charges is the wrong kind of nuance, because it requires tracking of the skill bar and not anything happening on the field of play. I find that interactions on the field height in my immersion in the fight, and too many things to track on the skill bar detract from the experience. 

[Ashantara.8731]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:16 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I would be happy if the charge animation was a shorter, more reasonable cast time and had an effect during channeling, so it doesn't feel like a long, self daze.

This would indeed be an excellent change.

As of now, I am not thrilled either about the revert as most of the final charges are not worth the "self daze" of re-channeling a mantra. It's currently a game of "Don't accidentally cast the last charge!" for me.