Mantra Revert, one week later

[Gaiawolf.8261]

So a bit over one week later after we had a chance to properly test mantras and put them into our daily use, I still see a lot of hate for the revert from players who actually use them. And... a few posts from players that like the change. 

I appreciate the charge animation and the option for preserving or burning charges, but the current implementation is clunky and just not fun to play. I would be happy if the charge animation was a shorter, more reasonable cast time and had an effect during channeling, so it doesn't feel like a long, self daze. 

What do you think Anet should do about them?

[Yasai.3549]

9 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

What do you think Anet should do about them?

Anet should decide what they consider "identity" first and foremost. 

Personally I think there's merit to keep Mantras unique as opposed to being ammo based spam skills.

 

1. What I think would be great is if all Mantras were standardized with the same format: Charge > Charge > Final Charge

2. Do away with the dumb channeled cast, it has no place in an action game like Gw2. 

3. Just make Mantras have a cooldown after Final Skill is cast, but in the event the player does not cast the Final Skill, their Skill 1 and 2 will recharge 50% faster.
 

 

Let's take a Mantra example: Mantra of Pain. 

Charge 1 and 2 : Power Spike, grants 5 might per cast and inflicts 3 vuln stacks 

Final Charge : more powerful version of Power Spike with more vuln stacks

 

If all 3 charges are cast, it will go into a full 15s cooldown. However if Final Skill isn't cast, the recharge time for Charge 1 and 2 would simply be 5s. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Cyninja.2954]

13 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Anet should decide what they consider "identity" first and foremost. 

Personally I think there's merit to keep Mantras unique as opposed to being ammo based spam skills.

 

1. What I think would be great is if all Mantras were standardized with the same format: Charge > Charge > Final Charge

2. Do away with the dumb channeled cast, it has no place in an action game like Gw2. 

3. Just make Mantras have a cooldown after Final Skill is cast, but in the event the player does not cast the Final Skill, their Skill 1 and 2 will recharge 50% faster.
 

 

Let's take a Mantra example: Mantra of Pain. 

Charge 1 and 2 : Power Spike, grants 5 might per cast and inflicts 3 vuln stacks 

Final Charge : more powerful version of Power Spike with more vuln stacks

 

If all 3 charges are cast, it will go into a full 15s cooldown. However if Final Skill isn't cast, the recharge time for Charge 1 and 2 would simply be 5s. 

 

I am going to quote you, simply because I am in full agreement. This is the way.

[Mell.4873]

The alternative is to add an extra charge to all Mantras so you can pre-precast them and wait for the cooldown or use them all and recast them. 

Right now though I love Mantra of Pain for healing groups. 

[Kodama.6453]

14 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

1. What I think would be great is if all Mantras were standardized with the same format: Charge > Charge > Final Charge

That kinda goes against Anet's design philosophy for elite specs, tho.

If we look at the utility skills for elite specs, then Anet most of the time tries to make the new skills of an elite spec have an unique spin which the skills of the same category of the other classes don't have.

Look, for example, at wells. The wells of the different classes work differently.

• Necro: as the only core class with wells, they have the "basic" wells, which are just ticking AoE fields ground targeted at range.
• Chronomancer: They tick exactly 3 times and the final tick is more powerful than the previous ones.
• Scrapper: PBAoEs instead of ranged ground targeted and they travel with the scrapper.
• Specter: The specter shadowsteps to the targeted location before placing the well.

This premise of utility skills having an unique spin for elite specs is also the main reason why Anet has reverted their proposed changes for scrapper wells. Because with their proposed rework, the unique spin would be missing, they would work exactly the same way like necromancer wells. So they decided to first come up with a new unique spin for scrapper wells before removing their mobile aspect.

Firebrand mantras have the final charge mechanic as their "unique spin", while mesmer mantras have instead an effect when completing their preparation channel.

So if Anet would really standardize mantras as "charge > charge > final charge", then they would first have to come up with a new mechanic for firebrand mantras to make them slightly different than mesmer mantras still.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

So if Anet would really standardize mantras as "charge > charge > final charge", then they would first have to come up with a new mechanic for firebrand mantras to make them slightly different than mesmer mantras still.

It is something they do sometimes, but they don't have to make a unique spin for espec utilities. I'm not aware of any mechanical differences between core skills and Untamed Cantrips, Spellbreaker Meds, or Soulbeast stances, to name a few.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

I just don't like the long CD coupled with a long cast time, back to back on FB. It feels like a double whammy for not enough benefit. Moreover, it isn't fun to play. "Wait a while so you can just wait a little bit more, but this time while dazed!" At least with Mesmer mantras, they have a shorter CD and the cast actually does something cool, instead of just being there to make you wait longer, gives enemies a chance to interrupt you, and lock you out of most other skills. Pick one or the other, a long CD or a long cast time, not both.

So, I like the concept and animations, but hate the execution. Mostly for firebrands. For mesmers it's... okay, but would prefer the cast time to have a channeled effect like real mantras. Others have suggested fixes that could also work.

[Yasai.3549]

5 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

That kinda goes against Anet's design philosophy for elite specs, tho.

If we look at the utility skills for elite specs, then Anet most of the time tries to make the new skills of an elite spec have an unique spin which the skills of the same category of the other classes don't have.

Look, for example, at wells. The wells of the different classes work differently.

• Necro: as the only core class with wells, they have the "basic" wells, which are just ticking AoE fields ground targeted at range.
• Chronomancer: They tick exactly 3 times and the final tick is more powerful than the previous ones.
• Scrapper: PBAoEs instead of ranged ground targeted and they travel with the scrapper.
• Specter: The specter shadowsteps to the targeted location before placing the well.

This premise of utility skills having an unique spin for elite specs is also the main reason why Anet has reverted their proposed changes for scrapper wells. Because with their proposed rework, the unique spin would be missing, they would work exactly the same way like necromancer wells. So they decided to first come up with a new unique spin for scrapper wells before removing their mobile aspect.

Firebrand mantras have the final charge mechanic as their "unique spin", while mesmer mantras have instead an effect when completing their preparation channel.

So if Anet would really standardize mantras as "charge > charge > final charge", then they would first have to come up with a new mechanic for firebrand mantras to make them slightly different than mesmer mantras still.

Scrapper "Wells" are an abomination, I'd rather not include them in this discussion. 

But yes, there are "vanilla skills" and "Espec variants" but ultimately, I don't think a unique version for an Espec is more important than functionally good to use.

 

Take Mesmer Mantras for example: They are meant to be Charge > Spam > Spam with no cooldown. This makes sense to Mesmer because of either balancing or because that's just how it's meant to be, for the long charge time to balance off the no or low cooldown nature of the skill. It is also worth mentioning that Mesmer Mantras are very weak if you value each individual cast, compared to a normal skill of the rest of Mesmer's kit. 

 

Firebrand Mantras are significantly powerful but balanced with a substantial cooldown if you do use the final charge. 

 

In general I don't think either traits of the above Mantras need to remain exclusive if we were to rework them into a more useable format. Goal here is to make Mantras feel good to use after all. We can probably iron out uniqueness after the fundamentals have been established. 

 

What I understand as a Mantra's skill fundamental is that they want to be unique skills on an ammo system which while weak, can be recharged rather quickly, however you can also choose to fully expand them in order for you to gain more instant value out of them in a pinch. Thus my suggestion to standardize a Charge > Charge > Final Charge, with significantly faster recharge time if Final Charge was not used. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Kodama.6453]

18 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

It is something they do sometimes, but they don't have to make a unique spin for espec utilities. I'm not aware of any mechanical differences between core skills and Untamed Cantrips, Spellbreaker Meds, or Soulbeast stances, to name a few.

I would say it is something they do sometimes, but something they try to do whenever possible. The fact that Anet pulled the gyro changes because of this missing element supports this...

And some of the skills you mention here actually have these elements.

Untamed cantrips have a changing effect based on their leashed state, which other cantrips don't have. Funnily enough, that makes them function like glyphs, but they already gave glyphs to druid so there's that.

Soulbeast stances work on a proc system. The big majority of them have a trigger built in for their effects while their stance is active. Like bear stance healing additionally if it cleanses conditions. Griffon stance giving might and superspeed on dodged attacks. Vulture stance and one wolf pack procing on-hit.

__________________________________________________

Cases like Spellbreaker's meditations are the exception here, not the utility skills with the twist.

And for the meditations, there is also the difficulty that meditations are themselves undefined. Look at guardian meditations, is there any mechanic that ties them together you can call out?

Meditations are basically the "miscellaneous" skills of the guardian. Everything that didn't fit a specific gameplay mechanic was put here, they are not as defined as shouts or spirit weapons or signets. Hell, the healing skill meditation of guardian functionally copies a stance.

There are other skill types like this. For engineer, the gadgets are not defined and just put together of skills which didn't fit another category. For ranger, it's the survival skills. For thief, it's tricks.

But if the utility skill type is defined by a clear gameplay mechanic, then Anet definitely tries hard to give them these mechanical spins.

 

 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

28 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I would say it is something they do sometimes, but something they try to do whenever possible. The fact that Anet pulled the gyro changes because of this missing element supports this...

And some of the skills you mention here actually have these elements.

Untamed cantrips have a changing effect based on their leashed state, which other cantrips don't have. Funnily enough, that makes them function like glyphs, but they already gave glyphs to druid so there's that.

Soulbeast stances work on a proc system. The big majority of them have a trigger built in for their effects while their stance is active. Like bear stance healing additionally if it cleanses conditions. Griffon stance giving might and superspeed on dodged attacks. Vulture stance and one wolf pack procing on-hit.

__________________________________________________

Cases like Spellbreaker's meditations are the exception here, not the utility skills with the twist.

And for the meditations, there is also the difficulty that meditations are themselves undefined. Look at guardian meditations, is there any mechanic that ties them together you can call out?

Meditations are basically the "miscellaneous" skills of the guardian. Everything that didn't fit a specific gameplay mechanic was put here, they are not as defined as shouts or spirit weapons or signets. Hell, the healing skill meditation of guardian functionally copies a stance.

There are other skill types like this. For engineer, the gadgets are not defined and just put together of skills which didn't fit another category. For ranger, it's the survival skills. For thief, it's tricks.

But if the utility skill type is defined by a clear gameplay mechanic, then Anet definitely tries hard to give them these mechanical spins.

 

 

To be honest, the guardian meditations actually feel thematically like the 2021 mantras without ammo. They are mental states the guardian likely prepares ahead of time before the fight starts that they can unleash without cast time (except the heal). They are deeper conditioning though, since they don't have to be re-prepped.

[Bunny.9834]

The Mesmer ones are fine. Maybe slightly shave of the cast time. 

The diversion reduction from the daze mantra is really helpful. 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I only touched the Mesmer one and...well some of them are very good overall (mantra to remove condition, mantra that reduces CD of daze), some are good (healing mantra) and some are meh (all the other mantra).

 

The mantra to remove condition for instance can be a life saver if you are able to time it right because it has a strong aftercast effect and the mantra itself isnt bad at all.  You have a reason not to pre load your mantra because it can clean all your condition but you do it at the cost of casting for a few seconds. But not every mantra are worth the casting time.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

41 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

I only touched the Mesmer one and...well some of them are very good overall (mantra to remove condition, mantra that reduces CD of daze), some are good (healing mantra) and some are meh (all the other mantra).

 

The mantra to remove condition for instance can be a life saver if you are able to time it right because it has a strong aftercast effect and the mantra itself isnt bad at all.  You have a reason not to pre load your mantra because it can clean all your condition but you do it at the cost of casting for a few seconds. But not every mantra are worth the casting time.

Yeah, some of the on-cast effects are pretty cool, and CDs aren't so bad with the mesmer mantras. Overall, I'm okay with mesmer mantra design, but it can use some tweaking. It seems like the FB mantras are what have most players riled up. A long CD followed by a long cast to recharge, just feels clunky, and bad, and counterintuitive. Not to mention most of the final charge effects aren't anything distinct or unique, just beefed up versions of the regular charges.

[Virtuality.8351]

What bugs me the most is that the developers never explicitly state the intention and design consideration behind this reversion in this patch note as they usually do.

Instead, they just leave it for us, confused, to figure out what is supposed to be addressed and what can be done in order to address it. And you just cannot point and say what is done right/wrong with it.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Virtuality.8351

[zeyeti.8347]

What a lot of people don't like is the cast time , if you don't want to deal with it , then this patch is a straight nerf to mantras (-1 ammo full , not for Fb elite though) .

But while Fb mantras have a pretty strong effect on the last charge , mesmer is leaved with some weird effects , like reload f3 (2.25 cast time to reload that) add some might , and the heal who is the only one in my opinion who got way better , making it a 10 sec cd strong heal.

Think anet need to look into mesmer mantras , Fb is fine , i don't like the huge cast time , but heh can't always have things suited your way .

Edited February 26, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 2/25/2023 at 9:02 AM, Virtuality.8351 said:

What bugs me the most is that the developers never explicitly state the intention and design consideration behind this reversion in this patch note as they usually do.

Instead, they just leave it for us, confused, to figure out what is supposed to be addressed and what can be done in order to address it. And you just cannot point and say what is done right/wrong with it.

They explained it in the livestream, but not in the patch notes. Basically, they said they have been watching the effects since the revert in 2021 and don't feel mantras are mantras anymore, not that they ever resembled real mantras, so I don't know what they mean by that. Personally, I got the impression the new lead dev never liked the 2021 revert so, he's using his new clout to make them how he likes them instead. Can't say for sure; just the feeling I got from his tone during the livestream.

5 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

What a lot of people don't like is the cast time , if you don't want to deal with it , then this patch is a straight nerf to mantras (-1 ammo full , not for Fb elite though) .

But while Fb mantras have a pretty strong effect on the last charge , mesmer is leaved with some weird effects , like reload f3 (2.25 cast time to reload that) add some might , and the heal who is the only one in my opinion who got way better , making it a 10 sec cd strong heal.

Think anet need to look into mesmer mantras , Fb is fine , i don't like the huge cast time , but heh can't always have things suited your way .

I like some of the mesmer mantra cast effects, but some need work. I don't like any of the long CDs followed by a long cast on FB. But shortening the cast, and maybe shave a bit of the CD on the FB ones would go a long way.

[apharma.3741]

2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

They explained it in the livestream, but not in the patch notes. Basically, they said they have been watching the effects since the revert in 2021 and don't feel mantras are mantras anymore, not that they ever resembled real mantras, so I don't know what they mean by that. Personally, I got the impression the new lead dev never liked the 2021 revert so, he's using his new clout to make them how he likes them instead. Can't say for sure; just the feeling I got from his tone during the livestream.

I like some of the mesmer mantra cast effects, but some need work. I don't like any of the long CDs followed by a long cast on FB. But shortening the cast, and maybe shave a bit of the CD on the FB ones would go a long way.

I think a lot of people weren't around when FB came or know the difference between the 2 types of mantras or at least the difference when FB first got mantras:
FB mantras: short count recharge, bonus on final charge, long cool down on the mantra.
Mesmer mantras: long count recharge, bonus on cast, short cool down on the mantra.

What this means is firebrands need to think and weigh up using the last charge which is why they get 3 charges but the cool down isn't so long that using the final charge won't mean you don't have it for the next fight. While mesmers want to cycle the mantra as much as possible to circumvent the long count recharge, hence only 2 charges which often means LoSing in a fight or backing off but that even if you finish a fight with 1 count left you should be full for the next fight. They're different playstyles and appropriate for the different classes

[ascii.1369]

Sry if this has been already discussed, couldn't be bothered to read through the entire topic. It would be interessting to see what the poll looks like when we split it between Guardian/Mesmer aswell as PvP/PvE. I don't think it matters at all in PvE anyway since there afking for 2.25 seconds (Mesmer recharge cast time) is perfectly fine. Can't really speak for Guardian PvP, but it seems to me Mesmer PvP players are the ones who got kittened here mostly.

Edited February 26, 2023 by ascii.1369

[Gaiawolf.8261]

6 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

Sry if this has been already discussed, couldn't be bothered to read through the entire topic. It would be interessting to see what the poll looks like when we split it between Guardian/Mesmer aswell as PvP/PvE. I don't think it matters at all in PvE anyway since there afking for 2.25 seconds (Mesmer recharge cast time) is perfectly fine. Can't really speak for Guardian PvP, but it seems to me Mesmer PvP players are the ones who got kittened here mostly.

Yes, it would have been good to know the opinions on mesmer mantras versus FB mantras. So far I noticed more more hate for the way FB mantras work. Personally, I dislike the long cast time following a long CD. Feels like a double whammy. So, I guess I understand that trend.

[Carnifex.3275]

Can't believe people actually like the change. Somehow i got a feeling it's mostly people who don't even play mesmer/guard. 

I'm sure mesmer-only poll would look very different. 

They need to either revert it. Or buff it. Give us atleast 3 charges or some other QoL. Like for mesmer lets say give us the option to precast them out of combat automatically like FB. Maybe it could be a trait also or some option. If you enable the option then u get them automatically precast out of combat. And mesmers who use it for healing - they can still have the option to precast it in combat. As it stands now.. it's a straight up nerf.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Carnifex.3275

[zealex.9410]

On 2/23/2023 at 9:17 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

Do away with the dumb channeled cast, it has no place in an action game like Gw2. 

Channeled abilities have been part of gw2 sonce its inception.

[zealex.9410]

8 hours ago, Carnifex.3275 said:

Can't believe people actually like the change. Somehow i got a feeling it's mostly people who don't even play mesmer/guard. 

I'm sure mesmer-only poll would look very different. 

They need to either revert it. Or buff it. Give us atleast 3 charges or some other QoL. Like for mesmer lets say give us the option to precast them out of combat automatically like FB. Maybe it could be a trait also or some option. If you enable the option then u get them automatically precast out of combat. And mesmers who use it for healing - they can still have the option to precast it in combat. As it stands now.. it's a straight up nerf.

Mesmer and guard are my two mains, last patch i might as well had put my mantras on aa but now they have so much more character and nuance depending on the mantra and the situation.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Channeled abilities have been part of gw2 sonce its inception.

Not like FB mantras. Other channeled skills actually do something rather than dazing yourself for a skill used later. Overloads are the epitome of a channeled skill done well. They have a fun visual and gameplay effect during the channel, can be traited for additional effects during the channel, can be interrupted for counter play, and have an impressive capstone to the channel.

FB mantras by contrast.... are the direct opposite, and therefore the epitome of a channeled skill done poorly. 

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Not like FB mantras

Actually yes, exactly like FB mantras.

Current FB mantras are working the exact same way as mesmer mantras have worked on release of the game. You charged up the mantra and got ammunitions of the skill to activate for it, the charge up itself had no effect except giving you these charges.

Before making these claims, maybe you should look up the history of the skills you are talking about....

Edited February 28, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Actually yes, exactly like FB mantras.

Current FB mantras are working the exact same way as mesmer mantras have worked on release of the game. You charged up the mantra and got ammunitions of the skill to activate for it, the charge up itself had no effect except giving you these charges.

Before making these claims, maybe you should look up the history of the skills you are talking about....

Dude, that's the exact skill type we are complaining about, mantras. Try to follow the intent of the topic and comments instead of the literal word. Language will work much better for you that way. I get the feeling you are trying to argue just for the sake of argument rather than making a constructive point. Sorry, not interested in that type of discourse.

Also, I played mesmer since beta. Mantras weren't really used back then, even traited. They were largely dead skills, because of the empty channel outside of a few niche skills. There's more to the history of a skill than what you can find on the wiki.