Leap of Faith is Busted

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Every bladesong has at minimum a 0.75s cast time

And that's why I said bladeturn requiem was cumbersome to use. Also, a channeled block is also a pain to use especially when it feel like a pitiful downgrade of something you're use to have: distorsion.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

19 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Again, the fact that you can cherry-pick some skills in the game that are bad, doesn't mean that guardian GS is too strong and needs nerfs. The only thing that would is if guardian GS as a build is overperforming.

Do you think GS guardian is overperforming? Really? Really really?

 

This is fair, but still think 10k is too much for leap of faith in the context of the GS build as a whole. I'd  expect 7-8.

[apharma.3741]

17 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

This is fair, but still think 10k is too much for leap of faith in the context of the GS build as a whole. I'd  expect 7-8.

If it's bugged and is fixed it'll do about this, probably closer to 6-7K.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The ratio between the PvE and WvW/PvP split is 0.625, so if it is hitting for 10k because of the bug, then it should be 6.25k on the top end.

[Dr Meta.3158]

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Every bladesong has at minimum a 0.75s cast time due to the way it's animation works, if you don't understand why and think quickness reduces this take a few mins to play and investigate bladesongs. If you're getting hit by bladesongs it's a skill issue.
If you take them out of the equation virtuoso damage is kinda meh. You can set up a bladesong but at this point we're at core warrior level of counters so you'd be every bit as viable against the person as core warrior.
This isn't just my opinion, a lot of good players aren't playing virtuoso because it basically loses it's match up due to losing cap and bladesongs being so easily avoided.

Oh ok, user error.

[apharma.3741]

5 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Oh ok, user error.

Not really, it's why you don't see them in monthly and aren't likely to without changes, well telegraphed.

I'll give you a secret technique to abuse vs every virtuoso that will deny their bladesongs as you and a few others seem to have difficulty avoiding them:
Just run through the virtuoso, it literally prevents them casting unless they stand still and puts it on interrupt cool down. Additionally LoS works wonders.
Alternatively play it and you'll see why bladesongs don't often land, my favourite is "miss" when they're right infront of you on flat terrain.

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Not really, it's why you don't see them in monthly and aren't likely to without changes, well telegraphed.

I'll give you a secret technique to abuse vs every virtuoso that will deny their bladesongs as you and a few others seem to have difficulty avoiding them:
Just run through the virtuoso, it literally prevents them casting unless they stand still and puts it on interrupt cool down. Additionally LoS works wonders.
Alternatively play it and you'll see why bladesongs don't often land, my favourite is "miss" when they're right infront of you on flat terrain.

That's not it at all. The reason is the same for all mesmers. Mobility. Mobility is critical in conquest. Return portal to how it originally was and mesmer will take over the game again.

Also everyone is complaining about the absurd chaining of defenses of virtuoso (and elementalist classes). Don't assume, read. Reading helps a lot. Trust me. You spend most of your life learning to read and write for a good reason.

[apharma.3741]

On 3/9/2023 at 3:08 PM, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Wait, you can't do damage on virtuoso? What are you running? 

I'm sorry, what were you saying about reading? This is what you decided to pick up and complain to me about, not the defence or the mobility but virtuoso's not doing damage.
There's no snipping or misquoting you either, this is your full follow up.
Maybe you should not just learn reading but arithmetic too and check out the coefficients and requirements for damage on mesmer shatters vs virtuoso.

[Dr Meta.3158]

25 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I'm sorry, what were you saying about reading? This is what you decided to pick up and complain to me about, not the defence or the mobility but virtuoso's not doing damage.
There's no snipping or misquoting you either, this is your full follow up.
Maybe you should not just learn reading but arithmetic too and check out the coefficients and requirements for damage on mesmer shatters vs virtuoso.

I just implied that you were doing something wrong in that you couldn't do damage on virtuoso. My concern is their ridiculous defensive design.

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I just implied that you were doing something wrong in that you couldn't do damage on virtuoso. My concern is their ridiculous defensive design.

And I implied you're doing something wrong if you're letting yourself get hit by a minimum 0.75s cast time ability with huge tell 🤷‍♀️
We can agree distortion/defence uptime is insane but take that away from a B tier spec and what's left? Falls even further out of use, need to do something to make virtuoso better if you take.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

And I implied you're doing something wrong if you're letting yourself get hit by a minimum 0.75s 1.15 cast time ability

[Dr Meta.3158]

25 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

And I implied you're doing something wrong if you're letting yourself get hit by a minimum 0.75s cast time ability with huge tell 🤷‍♀️
We can agree distortion/defence uptime is insane but take that away from a B tier spec and what's left? Falls even further out of use, need to do something to make virtuoso better if you take.

If getting hit by skills with a cast time of 0.75 seconds or higher is an indicator of poor performance, then everyone that dies to a necromancer or warrior class is absolutely terrible. 

[Math.5123]

On 3/8/2023 at 12:02 AM, FrownyClown.8402 said:

If you compare it to swoop it’s stronger plus it heals and blinds. Getting a 10k crit is a rare occurrence. More realistically it prob does around 7k which is still pretty high. I wouldn’t mind seeing it be brought down to swoop numbers

I don't know if this was addressed in later posts, if that's the case. I'll edit.

 

But swoop has the utility of being an evade, so you can't compare the damage alone and call it a day. 

It's like comparing Maul to Whirling wrath, one has half a second cast time. Why shouldn't the other?

 

You need to look at the kit as a whole. Even with LoF chunking, the guard gs kit is infinitely worse in almost every scenario.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

49 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

I don't know if this was addressed in later posts, if that's the case. I'll edit.

 

But swoop has the utility of being an evade, so you can't compare the damage alone and call it a day. 

It's like comparing Maul to Whirling wrath, one has half a second cast time. Why shouldn't the other?

 

You need to look at the kit as a whole. Even with LoF chunking, the guard gs kit is infinitely worse in almost every scenario.

That's a fair argument, but I think it would be healthier for the "goodness" to be spread throughout the weapon kit rather than overloaded on one skill like LoF currently is.

 

I don't play guard much, so I'll defer to the guard mains on this one, but symbol of resolution is hot garbage and could use a serious buff or a complete rework. A ranged attack (like warrior's blade trail...but hopefully better since that skill kinda sucks) could be good, as it would let you poke from range or bait a dodge/defensive so you could land your LoF or Binding blade.

 

Regardless, my point is that guardian's GS should be overhauled into a truly good kit in its own right so it can stop being carried by LoF.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

I don't know if this was addressed in later posts, if that's the case. I'll edit.

 

But swoop has the utility of being an evade, so you can't compare the damage alone and call it a day. 

It's like comparing Maul to Whirling wrath, one has half a second cast time. Why shouldn't the other?

 

You need to look at the kit as a whole. Even with LoF chunking, the guard gs kit is infinitely worse in almost every scenario.

For comparing Maul to Whirling Wrath what you should to is calculate their coefficient/cast time and then compare that to the total coefficient/cast time of the whole AA chain of each weapon. This isn't a measure of Damage of Time but is a measure of how impactful each skill is to use as well as it's efficiency over just using the AA chain. 

Spoiler

Whriling Wrath is one of the best damage skills you can use amongst the Greatsword 2 skills.

 

[Hotride.2187]

44 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

  Hide contents

Whriling Wrath is one of the best damage skills you can use amongst the Greatsword 2 skills.

Assuming it connects all hits. I'm pretty sure ranger GS2 is better, just because it has better chances of connecting.

[SlateSloan.3654]

LOF is somewhat bugged. in wvw it uses PvE coefficient, too

like also chilling nova on reaper is bugged and does pve damage.

same bugs like spellbreaker hat with dagger...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Assuming it connects all hits. I'm pretty sure ranger GS2 is better, just because it has better chances of connecting.

Only half of Whirling Wrath needs to hit to be on equal footing with Maul. I'd take the mobile multi hit attack over the one that summons a big freaking bear spirit highly telegraphing the attack animation in an all or nothing shot, but they both have ways of securing the respective skills so whether they hit or not is moot. 

[Math.5123]

39 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Only half of Whirling Wrath needs to hit to be on equal footing with Maul. I'd take the mobile multi hit attack over the one that summons a big freaking bear spirit highly telegraphing the attack animation in an all or nothing shot, but they both have ways of securing the respective skills so whether they hit or not is moot. 

I mean, Whirling wrath has a 3.25 second cast time. So arguing wether or not it'll land is a moot point. 

It's also really hard comparing Maul to anything due to the dmg boost it does to the next pet ability. So if you connect Maul into tail swipe you're going to get huge numbers out of the skill compared to it buffing a smokescale auto for example. 

 

But as people prior to me pointed out, comparing skills are pointless. Guard lacks the cc to secure hits, while ranger has cc but overall lower dmg potential. Guard has always and will always top out golem dps in pvp due to the nature of symbols and gs2 projectiles. The issue lies in actually landing the abilities on capable enemies. 

 

Myself and Arken had a 3.5 something hour conversation with cmc a couple years back addressing this very issue, but nothing has happened and nothing will happen. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Math.5123 said:

I mean, Whirling wrath has a 3.25 second cast time. So arguing wether or not it'll land is a moot point. 

I think you are confusing Whirling Wrath and Hundred Blades there.

1 hour ago, Math.5123 said:

It's also really hard comparing Maul to anything due to the dmg boost it does to the next pet ability. So if you connect Maul into tail swipe you're going to get huge numbers out of the skill compared to it buffing a smokescale auto for example. 

That is a point to consider, but then you can also point to whether 1 or more of Whirling Wrath's projectiles hit. When I compare these two, I generally take WW's non projectile damage, and it's projectile damage separately. As for Maul the fairest way to take into account the damage boost for the pet would be to take the strongest pet skills and boost them, but scaled based on their cast time, or to consider that the ranger is a soulbeast and has precast maul's damage buff while merged. Whirling Wrath would still come out ahead there though.

1 hour ago, Math.5123 said:

But as people prior to me pointed out, comparing skills are pointless. Guard lacks the cc to secure hits, while ranger has cc but overall lower dmg potential. Guard has always and will always top out golem dps in pvp due to the nature of symbols and gs2 projectiles. The issue lies in actually landing the abilities on capable enemies. 

Guard has a pull on the greatsword, a pull on F1 if DH or FB, instant teleports that do not cancel skills, and immobs.  I would not say that guardians lack the means to secure hits.

1 hour ago, Math.5123 said:

Myself and Arken had a 3.5 something hour conversation with cmc a couple years back addressing this very issue, but nothing has happened and nothing will happen. 

I'd be interested in hearing more details from that conversation.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:49 PM, apharma.3741 said:

And I implied you're doing something wrong if you're letting yourself get hit by a minimum 0.75s cast time ability with huge tell 🤷‍♀️
We can agree distortion/defence uptime is insane but take that away from a B tier spec and what's left? Falls even further out of use, need to do something to make virtuoso better if you take.

 

Apharma is correct btw. Virtuoso is stupid right now with the blocks/distortion but if you take the blocks/distortion it needs reimbursement badly. It's a bunker with no teeth and is easily outrun. 

I still maintain giving it mobility instead would be best. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Math.5123]

39 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think you are confusing Whirling Wrath and Hundred Blades there.

That is a point to consider, but then you can also point to whether 1 or more of Whirling Wrath's projectiles hit. When I compare these two, I generally take WW's non projectile damage, and it's projectile damage separately. As for Maul the fairest way to take into account the damage boost for the pet would be to take the strongest pet skills and boost them, but scaled based on their cast time, or to consider that the ranger is a soulbeast and has precast maul's damage buff while merged. Whirling Wrath would still come out ahead there though.

Guard has a pull on the greatsword, a pull on F1 if DH or FB, instant teleports that do not cancel skills, and immobs.  I would not say that guardians lack the means to secure hits.

I'd be interested in hearing more details from that conversation.

Whirling Wrath has .75s wind up and 2.5s cast time. This means that gs5 isn't enough to land even half of gs2. Running gs dh isn't at all viable, only willbender can get away with it. 

 

We suggested reworks to symbols to make them less toxic and more viable in the higher tiers. We suggested removing big symbols, which happened shortly after. We suggested burn nerfs (burn dh meta), we talked about hammer rework. That one actually happened, kind of. We suggested lowering the banish knock to allow for mighty blow follow-up. 

 

We talked about adding cripple to sword mainhand and making focus 4 go on cd once you start the channel. It was an incredibly toxic way of baiting dodges back when it hit for 13k.

We discussed ways of making dh less one-dimensional in that you either one shot or get one shot. 

Talked about swiftness access via traits in either virtues or radiance. 

(My suggestion was 11% movement speed for every virtue off cd) so that guardians had more out of combat mobilty, but the same mobility in combat where it doesn't really lack it. 

 

I don't remember everything, but these were the main pointers.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

Whirling Wrath has .75s wind up and 2.5s cast time. This means that gs5 isn't enough to land even half of gs2. Running gs dh isn't at all viable, only willbender can get away with it. 

 

We suggested reworks to symbols to make them less toxic and more viable in the higher tiers. We suggested removing big symbols, which happened shortly after. We suggested burn nerfs (burn dh meta), we talked about hammer rework. That one actually happened, kind of. We suggested lowering the banish knock to allow for mighty blow follow-up. 

 

We talked about adding cripple to sword mainhand and making focus 4 go on cd once you start the channel. It was an incredibly toxic way of baiting dodges back when it hit for 13k.

We discussed ways of making dh less one-dimensional in that you either one shot or get one shot. 

Talked about swiftness access via traits in either virtues or radiance. 

(My suggestion was 11% movement speed for every virtue off cd) so that guardians had more out of combat mobilty, but the same mobility in combat where it doesn't really lack it. 

 

I don't remember everything, but these were the main pointers.

Sounds like some of the solutions you wanted for core ended up being rolled into Willbender in some fashion (like the increased mobility for example). That tracks in line with how some proposals for improving core warrior ended up elsewhere than where the mains were talking about.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

18 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Apharma is correct btw. Virtuoso is stupid right now with the blocks/distortion but if you take the blocks/distortion it needs reimbursement badly. It's a bunker with no teeth and is easily outrun. 

I still maintain giving it mobility instead would be best. 

Mesmerino here, virtuoso needs a total rework in all of the traits and utilities and dagger, there's literally nothing to be saved. Shatters are a mixed bag, they mostly need a redesign (change some animation timings and rebalancing all around), but not a total rework. The mechanic of blades needs more tuning too, virtuoso needs to be balanced around 3 blades instead of having 5 and hoping a single GM trait rebalances a class entirely designed around generating for 3.

[Kuma.1503]

Hey. You leave my Valk Firebrand build alone. 

It never hurt no one. 

Ignore the pile of bodies. They were there when I got here.