Why are people unwilling to follow strat?

[Deadmoose.6594]

I really don't get this. I feel like 90% of the time when my strat is implemented, its a win. The problem is most people don't seem to care enough to want to win, they just blindly chase people to kill them or they go to the furthest node when we can't even hold down mid.

 

I'm starting to think I like TDM better than Conquest because at least the dumb people don't have to think as hard. It's tailored for them because all they have to do is kill the enemy, which apparently is all they can handle.

 

Additionally, seeing almost nobody call targets using CTR-T. Almost nobody replying back in chat, nobody responding or seeming even to want to work as a team. So in the end I suffer and get less rewards for my time, awesome.

[ascii.1369]

8 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

or they go to the furthest node when we can't even hold down mid.

Have you considered they do that because you can’t hold mid? Trying to find value elsewhere rather than dying in a fight you can’t win seems fine.

 

8 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

It's tailored for them because all they have to do is kill the enemy, which apparently is all they can handle.

Your previous complaint was precisely about the fact that they are thinking, rather than mindlessly fighting on mid. You just don’t agree with their conclusions.

 

PvP can be frustrating, because it’s not really feasible to play a coherent strategy with random people and no voice chat. However, it seems rather likely to me, that the other players in your game would be saying about you exactly what you’re saying about them.

That’s just what happens when people on the same team have differing opinions on what the best course of action is at the moment. Everybody thinks they know best, and then complain about their teammates not following their lead.

[Deadmoose.6594]

2 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

Have you considered they do that because you can’t hold mid? Trying to find value elsewhere rather than dying in a fight you can’t win seems fine.

 

Your previous complaint was precisely about the fact that they are thinking, rather than mindlessly fighting on mid. You just don’t agree with their conclusions.

 

PvP can be frustrating, because it’s not really feasible to play a coherent strategy with random people and no voice chat. However, it seems rather likely to me, that the other players in your game would be saying about you exactly what you’re saying about them.

That’s just what happens when people on the same team have differing opinions on what the best course of action is at the moment. Everybody thinks they know best, and then complain about their teammates not following their lead.

 

Okay, I have a reply to basically all of this.

 

Half the time we can't hold mid because of either of these two reasons: not enough people showed up mid at the same time and the other team got the advantage and swept the trickle of players into mid, and/or, the team just wasn't targeting the right person/people. For the later, this is where strat comes into play and you can try to come together as a team and agree on who should be focused and from there it should be easier to overcome the other team.

 

Are you thinking? If they are, they're doing it in a vacuum because they aren't communicating their plans to literally anyone. I don't see how venturing to the far point only to lose is a good strat, especially not communicating to anyone your plan. Should we all be assuming that since we lost mid most of us should go far?

 

I don't see how it's not only feasible but necessary, especially in ranked. When I first started ranked it seemed like people were really into strat and trying to figure out how to win. Since then I may have just been unlucky with my teams but its certainly devolved into nobody talking and a lot of losing. Some afk'ers as well. When you say people have differing opinions, again, they aren't talking so how do I know they have a different opinion? I don't like to assume anything.

[Fueki.4753]

There's the possibly that some people simply don't read the chat and thus don't know the strategy you propose. This is perfectly reasonable, given the amount of spam and verbal belongs-in-the-toilet that regularly appears in the chat.

Then there's the possibly that some people simply do not care for the words of I-know-better-than-you attitudes.

Also, a not insignificant portion of the remaining players in sPvP are there for the PvE rewards and dailies, so they don't really care about winning or losing.

And then there are the people who simply can't be bothered trying to compete with things they deem too unfair. This can include (among other things) excessive amounts of CC, Immobilize and/or Stealth.

These are just four reasons among probably many, MANY more reasons, that cause people to behave differently than you think people ought to behave in sPvP.

 

[JTGuevara.9018]

So, OP, remember that team compositions can overcome whatever strategies people put out. Happens more often than not. If you're struggling at mid, that means the other team has either team-oriented build compositions (usually the case at mid point) or a skilled bunker and/or support. That situation is essentially going to force your team to go for side nodes.

Two. Also, you did not mention THE MOST important tool: the mini-map. The mini-map gives you everything you need to win the game. It gives you the big picture of the match as well as where all the players are. The mini-map is criminally underused. More often than not, people get distracted by their opponent and don't even remember to glance or check the mini-map to see who's contesting points. You can also use it for pinging "strats" (can we just starting the word 'strategy' again please? Thank you!) .

[Nabbut.7480]

What you call "strategy" is actually "tactic". "Strategy" is to make your breed of ctrl-T-callers marginal.

[jdawgie.1835]

5 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

The mini-map is criminally underused

🤣So True.

[apharma.3741]

"I know better"
"I don't need some bronze/silver/gold player telling me how to play"
"I've played since launch, I know how to play"
"FIGHT ON NODE!!!"
"1 home, all mid, never far"

Or to put it in 1 word: ego.

[Khalisto.5780]

You mean "Your" strat

[stormemperor.3745]

Forest of Nilfhel

They decide its a good idea to go far instead of killing home boss when mid and home don't have enemies.

They also call out to people killing bosses.

Result? Enemy lost nodes and fights and won the match by killing those bosses. Who could have seen this coming? Really

 

Revenge of The Capricorn

Bell is on, let me go far or home for quick capture first(capture not decap because...)

I literally saw someone going to bell, leaving when enemies and allies fighting there and go off to capture home only to rejoin fight at bell later because yes.

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by stormemperor.3745

[Luthan.5236]

Personally I dislike if people start to self-proclaim themselves as commander of the team ... trying to talk big at the beginning. The "my strat" thing ... already seems like one of those people. They also get annoying often if people do not exactly what they suggested. Which then might lead to others to play bad on purpose ... to annoy them even more.

There is some basic stuff to know. But there are also things that change. Depending on the match (map, teams and team composition and the skill/strength of the players) you can try different things.

The main problem with going far are usually the (lets' call them like this) "silly helpers": One person can go decap or even cap far. If you'd lose mid even with that person ... could make sense to send someone far while the others at least contest or distract at mid. But if someone starts to "help" capture the empty far point ... you have even less in mid. Then they'll steamroll you mid and move back to far (their close) and outnumber there was well ...

And against "close is free for capping please take it, dear enemy" the best strategy won't help. Even if people read it ... too often just nobody notices. This is a thing of map awareness. If good fights are going on it might also be hard to move away to intercept someone going to close (and you can't always have someone bunker-defending there).

In my opinion cleverly defending usually brings the advantage. Trying to rush to decap/cap an empty point will oftne result in it just being capped back fast ... or them killling you when you try to cap (when the cap takes longer but the decap is still easy). Doesn't mean you just should ignore far all the time. Especially not in a close match and when they successfully decap your close often.

Edit: Capricorn actually it is important to not just stupidly contest the bell - when you cant get it quickly. Have seen a 100 vs. 300 turned into a 500/300 just because the team with 100 kept the bell contested while the other team send all players to cap it and the team with 100 had a runner capping all point. Pretty classic: Being baited into staying near the bell. Simlilar stuff happens in Temple ... where it is even worse when the other team can get the top buff (stillness) ticking all 3 poinst and the others want to get them by just getting the bottom buff at 08:30 ... but the enemy just denies ot for a long time. (Does not need to even get it. Just some builds with good survivabilty do deny it and staying alive preventing people from getting the buff.) Lol.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Luthan.5236

[Nabbut.7480]

Actually the real winning tactic is to SLAUGHTER the enemy team then roam between points as a group and SLAUGHTER solo respawners trying to recap. If you are unable to SLAUGHTER, point thievery haves slim chances of success.

[Bazsi.2734]

On 3/10/2023 at 4:32 AM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

I really don't get this. I feel like 90% of the time when my strat is implemented, its a win. The problem is most people don't seem to care enough to want to win, they just blindly chase people to kill them or they go to the furthest node when we can't even hold down mid.

 

I'm starting to think I like TDM better than Conquest because at least the dumb people don't have to think as hard. It's tailored for them because all they have to do is kill the enemy, which apparently is all they can handle.

 

Additionally, seeing almost nobody call targets using CTR-T. Almost nobody replying back in chat, nobody responding or seeming even to want to work as a team. So in the end I suffer and get less rewards for my time, awesome.

Expecting other people to play your strat is a perfect way to set yourself up for disappointment. When gold players are infesting my PvP, normal roles and tactics go out the window and it's just a clown fiesta. 
Which is almost every match since there is barely anyone playing who can consinstently make it in high plat anymore. You have to go in with the assumption that both yours and the enemy team will be full of clueless golds who aren't here to play a role, they are here to... have fun by being incredibly suboptimal or something. Play some mobile bursty build and zoom-zoom around getting decaps and easy kills. Most matches where your team isn't getting spawncamped are winnable if you do this effectively.

Don't expect people to communicate, don't expect people to cooperate. This might be an MMO, but you are alone. Get a reliable buddy, climb up to mid/high plat and play in peak times if you want actual conquest.

[Stalima.5490]

It is likely because your strategy does not account for the strengths an weaknesses of your teams builds, for example if you only have 3 glass dps in mid and the enemy has a proper supported comp that can outlast their main damage phase, it is not going to end well for your team and those dps might aswell get cheap kills elsewhere and wherever possible.

[Deadmoose.6594]

14 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Expecting other people to play your strat is a perfect way to set yourself up for disappointment. When gold players are infesting my PvP, normal roles and tactics go out the window and it's just a clown fiesta. 
Which is almost every match since there is barely anyone playing who can consinstently make it in high plat anymore. You have to go in with the assumption that both yours and the enemy team will be full of clueless golds who aren't here to play a role, they are here to... have fun by being incredibly suboptimal or something. Play some mobile bursty build and zoom-zoom around getting decaps and easy kills. Most matches where your team isn't getting spawncamped are winnable if you do this effectively.

Don't expect people to communicate, don't expect people to cooperate. This might be an MMO, but you are alone. Get a reliable buddy, climb up to mid/high plat and play in peak times if you want actual conquest.

This comes across as elitist. I've been silver for a while and been going back between gold and silver...

 

18 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

If you'd lose mid even with that person ... could make sense to send someone far while the others at least contest or distract at mid. But if someone starts to "help" capture the empty far point ... you have even less in mid. Then they'll steamroll you mid and move back to far (their close) and outnumber there was well ...

This is literally my complaint. I recently fought a map where a war wasn't listening and kept going far even though we were losing mid. Losing mid isn't just losing one node, you're giving the other team a lot of points due to the number of deaths involved too, which nobody seems to mention. If we had that one war, it might've made the difference between winning and losing, and the match was close at the end too.

 

On 3/10/2023 at 9:33 PM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Two. Also, you did not mention THE MOST important tool: the mini-map.

This is common sense. Who is playing pvp and not looking at their minimap or pinging the map? I do it multiple times every match.

[Bazsi.2734]

20 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

This comes across as elitist. I've been silver for a while and been going back between gold and silver...

You are expecting people to communicate and be sensible. That's way more elitist than anything I wrote.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Bazsi.2734

[CrowEschatologist.6214]

Communication is good an all, but in any given match I'm likely to have blocked some of the team previously or have given up entirely and turned chat off. The ratio of useful conversation to flames and whining is about 1:20, and having to read other players' psychic vomit can easily push my apathy to alt+f4 and read a book levels.

Edited March 13, 2023 by CrowEschatologist.6214
Error

[ascii.1369]

On 3/12/2023 at 5:36 AM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

This comes across as elitist. I've been silver for a while and been going back between gold and silver...

I mean, I don't want to be a kitten, but if you're going back and forth between silver and gold I don't think your biggest issue is that teammates don't follow your strategy. While @Bazsi.2734 advice isn't the only way to carry a game, generally speaking he's right. Focuse on your own play and what you yourself can do to carry the game instead of putting the burden on your teammates.

 

On 3/10/2023 at 4:32 AM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

I feel like 90% of the time when my strat is implemented, its a win

Focusing on getting your teammates to follow your strategy is not only a poor allocation of your attention. There is also a big difference between you feeling like you have a winning strategy and actually having one. Most players are not very good at understanding why they won/lost a game, especially in lower ranks.

Edited March 13, 2023 by ascii.1369

[Deadmoose.6594]

10 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

I mean, I don't want to be a kitten, but if you're going back and forth between silver and gold I don't think your biggest issue is that teammates don't follow your strategy. While @Bazsi.2734 advice isn't the only way to carry a game, generally speaking he's right. Focuse on your own play and what you yourself can do to carry the game instead of putting the burden on your teammates.

 

Focusing on getting your teammates to follow your strategy is not only a poor allocation of your attention. There is also a big difference between you feeling like you have a winning strategy and actually having one. Most players are not very good at understanding why they won/lost a game, especially in lower ranks.

I've been climbing gold now finally, so clearly its not me that's the issue. This is a team game, so you need to have a solid team in order to win. There isn't any debate to be had on this, unless you're God's gift to GW2 pvp and to your team and you can carry everyone with your elite scrapper build, then good on you.

 

That's not me. I'm a chrono mesmer, which is the only class I really enjoy playing in the game. The build has some severe limitations, but I enjoy the challenge of winning and I enjoy how it plays so I don't really want to change it up. At this point I'm well beyond the 1:1 win ratio, so I'm doing something right.

 

I'm not going to stop trying to help steer my team to a win, even if some people just don't listen. Saying its a waste of time isn't helpful or useful at all, nor is criticizing people who are silver and gold. Sounds like you've got it in your head that you're just way better at the game because you might be plat or whatever, so only your experience matters and those who are in lower ranks count for lesser because they aren't as good. That's pretty kittened up tbh, and I'm done replying to you after this.

 

As an aside, you may be higher rank but we don't know your specifics. You could be duo que, play a broken build, etc. There's a lot of cheese ways to climb up higher quickly, and just because you do one doesn't mean you're smarter at the game than I am. Even if you do share at this point, I'm not even going to really consider it the truth given the nature of your responses so far. I've already admitted I'm a solo que chrono mesmer, and you can take that to the bank. I'll even group with anyone here if you don't believe me.

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

On 3/12/2023 at 5:36 AM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

This comes across as elitist. I've been silver for a while and been going back between gold and silver...

 

This is literally my complaint. I recently fought a map where a war wasn't listening and kept going far even though we were losing mid. Losing mid isn't just losing one node, you're giving the other team a lot of points due to the number of deaths involved too, which nobody seems to mention. If we had that one war, it might've made the difference between winning and losing, and the match was close at the end too.

 

sorry to break it to you but the warrior was doing the right thing. If your team doesn't have the comp to teamfight you are better off playing far&close. this splits the enemy team, resulting in a 1v1/1v2/2v2 fight on far. these are the situations which the warrior (spellbreaker I assume..) is build for and can help your team. especially when he is outnumbered and doesn't die instantly he is helping you a lot bc the rest of the team can actually get out of spawn without being facestomped by the whole enemyteam and can therefore get back on the nodes.

 

Since you're silver I also suggest you watch a youtube video about the different roles in pvp (I think vallun made a good one). this will get you to low/mid gold without much fighting skill.

 

[Endo.1652]

L m a o

[Deadmoose.6594]

2 hours ago, DEATHsCLAW.1978 said:

 

sorry to break it to you but the warrior was doing the right thing. If your team doesn't have the comp to teamfight you are better off playing far&close. this splits the enemy team, resulting in a 1v1/1v2/2v2 fight on far. these are the situations which the warrior (spellbreaker I assume..) is build for and can help your team. especially when he is outnumbered and doesn't die instantly he is helping you a lot bc the rest of the team can actually get out of spawn without being facestomped by the whole enemyteam and can therefore get back on the nodes.

 

Since you're silver I also suggest you watch a youtube video about the different roles in pvp (I think vallun made a good one). this will get you to low/mid gold without much fighting skill.

 

I'm almost gold 2 now. I definitely have more to learn about other classes, but my fighting skill is pretty high. Usually top dmg or at least 24% of team dmg without earning top dmg badge, in which case I usually get a top badge for something else.