The current state of defiance break

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Defiance bars have been a part of the game since HoT and have become a staple in both open world & instanced PvE content. Not breaking the defiance bars in time can result in anywhere between a dps loss to a full group wipe. Yet i'd argue that the current implementation is really flawed. 

 

Some big problems regarding defiance break: 

1. Defiance break often isn't properly displayed in the skill tooltip

There are 100+ skills that do not state the correct amount of defiance break. Some skills deal defiance break but do not have the correct tooltip, like for example head shot. Some tooltips add multiple defiance break stats even though they exclude eachother. For example earthshaker mentioning it deals 450 defiance break while in reality it deals 100, 150 or 200 depending on adrenaline level. And some even are plain stupid like head butt adding an extra 100 defiance break to the tooltip for its self stun. The effects of traits/sigils that increase stun/daze duration also are not being properly displayed in the skill tooltip. 

 

2. An unhealthy uneven distribution of defiance break across different weapons/especs

First of all i think its important to acknowledge the holes in roles principle: some classes are simply designed to deal more breakbar damage then others. There's nothing inherently wrong with this. The current deviation however is to big and can give problematic results in practise. The staff elementalist is an excellent example of this. In its current form the staff only provides 150 defiance break and although the ele can slot in some extra defiance break from utilities it is very clunky. Yet at the same time a single surge of the mist can already deal up to 1350 breakbar damage (depending on hitbox size&boss placement). Some encounters simply rely on group members dealing an average of ~400-500 defiance break, which in practice results in some professions not being viable or heavily reliant on other classes to compensate for their lack of defiance break. 

 

3.Defiance break isn't taken into account when determining the power budget of professions. 

Having extra defiance break is probably one of the most powerful 'support' abilities that a dps can bring, yet it isn't really taken into account when determining the power budget of a class. An example is the current hammer d/a spellbreaker which deals 1.5k more Golem dps and has alot more utility then the greatsword d/a alternative. 

 

4. The difference in defiance break is enormous between skills.

There's a big difference between defiance break from skills. Most skills provide anywhere between 100-400 defiance break, but for some reason there are a couple skills that provide way more defiance break. These skills are sanctuary (750-1050 if traited), basilisk Venom (750) and surge of the mist (150-1350 depending on the amount of hits). These skills simply seem to have old faulty skill coding which results in an absurd amount of defiance break

 

5. The mechanics of defiance break aren't properly introduced to newer players. 

There isn't any introduction to defiance break in the game, many new players are unaware of this mechanic. Soft CC defiance break is never even mentioned in the game and can only be found on the gw2 wiki. On top of that vast majority of players that do know the basic mechanics of breakbar damage are being led on a stray path by Anet itself due to the faulty tooltips. 

 

Can we please adress atleast some of these issues? Defiance break is an important aspect of the game and is able to provide interesting interactions, yet in its current adaptation its often misunderstood & provides unnecessary exclusion of some specific build variations. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by the krytan assassin.9235

[Panda.1967]

22 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Defiance bars have been a part of the game since launch

Defiance bars were added with Heart of Thorns, not at launch. They might have been added during the last few patches leading up to the release of Zaitan even... but they most certainly were NOT a part of the game since launch.

That out of the way... they definitely do need to be re-evaluated and reworked... Its stupid that some weapon combinations can completely lack any defiance break, some have only one insanely weak defiance break with an absurdly long cooldown, and then othrs with no shortage what so ever... Every weapon combination should be able to deal reliable defiance break damage.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

I appreciate OP taking the time to details how this one system in GW2 is so flawed and poorly implemented and maintained. This is one combat mechanic of many that has inconsistencies which detract from the overall game experience. 
 

Free games be free though, and people are happy to spend money on this garbage not knowing how it’s all smoke and mirrors. Until they find out stuff like this of course. 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

4 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Defiance bars were added with Heart of Thorns, not at launch. They might have been added during the last few patches leading up to the release of Zaitan even... but they most certainly were NOT a part of the game since launch.

Oh oops my bad, changed it in the OP, i was confused with the unshakable effect which was present into the game since launch. Defiance indeed was introduced around the HoT xpac.

 

[Avatara.1042]

Nicely said.  It has always bugged me as an elementalist main how bad my breakbar damage is, especially when it comes to utility skills.

[Gibson.4036]

Good post detailing the player-side problems with defiance break.

Enemy side, breakbars have so many variations it's no wonder players give up and ignore them. Some breakbars are huge, some break quickly, some stay broken for a long time, some return almost immediately. Breaking a bar has several possible effects. Sometimes you really need this effect, sometimes the effect is pointless.

There are plenty of enemies in the open world that teach players to ignore the blue bar. It's easier and more efficient to simply DPS through. Players encounter the breakbar mechanic, think, "Oh, okay, I'll learn my CC and make sure to use them" only to feel ridiculous when they spend time trying to whittle down the defiance and everyone else simply nukes the mob into oblivion.

This is what people mean when they say GW2 is terrible at training players. The new tutorial in the EoD training area was a nice step, and reinforcing it by having to break walls in one of the early story instances was a good idea, but the open world does a terrible job of reinforcing this mechanic. It's no wonder so many players still don't get it by the time they're trying to fight meta bosses.

 

[Avatara.1042]

Wow, these forums are dead.

[Gibson.4036]

3 hours ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Wow, these forums are dead.

Things don’t change much in game, there’s not much to talk about.

[Dadnir.5038]

1- True, it isn't always displayed in the tooltip. This give the devs some room for tooltip fix when they need to buff up a patch note.

2- I disagree, I do think it's a good thing for weaponsets to provide different amount of defiance break. It lead intelligent players to make choice for their builds.

3- I'm 100% sure the devs take it into account within their definition of power budget. Players when they define the "meta", thought? Probably not.

4- Again, not an issue.

5- It's a non-issue.

6- Some tooltips are already bloated, I don't think listing each and every conditions impact on the breakbar is something that will improve the game.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

5- It's a non-issue.

Why is this not an issue? You don't think new players should be taught how defiance bars work in the game? I mean, they have a tutorial for most other basic mechanics.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Why is this not an issue? You don't think new players should be taught how defiance bars work in the game? I mean, they have a tutorial for most other basic mechanics.

Because I'd like to think that people are smart enough to use the skills that do breakbar damage when their UI show that the breakbar can take damage. I am also very aware of the fact that many players just don't do the various tutorials that the game offer (for example, if you don't start as a human and don't go for a full map completion, odds are high that you'll miss the tutorial on how to hit someone that occasionally block: township of claypool -> train with the militia).

And I'm pretty sure that I recall having done some event in Heart of Thorn where a NPC remind us when we need to break the breakbar, I think it's on a Wyvern fight.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Not everyone goes to HoT right away (some players don't even own it!). I did a good part of PoF maps before even going to Verdent Brink because someone told me the HPs were easier, and mirage looked cooler than chrono. I had no idea what that green bar even was for a long time, until I got curious and went to the wiki. Game never told me. You shouldn't have to go to a wiki to learn that.

Player tips like your comment didn't help either by calling it a breakbar. Game name is Defiance Bar, not breakbar, so I had no idea those were the same thing at first either. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Avatara.1042]

19 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

1- True, it isn't always displayed in the tooltip. This give the devs some room for tooltip fix when they need to buff up a patch note.

2- I disagree, I do think it's a good thing for weaponsets to provide different amount of defiance break. It lead intelligent players to make choice for their builds.

3- I'm 100% sure the devs take it into account within their definition of power budget. Players when they define the "meta", thought? Probably not.

4- Again, not an issue.

5- It's a non-issue.

6- Some tooltips are already bloated, I don't think listing each and every conditions impact on the breakbar is something that will improve the game.

You cannot just magic it away by saying 'not an issue' while explaining absolutely nothing.

The fact is, there is a massive difference between professions when it comes to breakbar damage, especially when it comes to utilities.  And no, I doubt the devs have EVER taken breakbar damage into consideration for profession balance.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 3/16/2023 at 12:51 PM, Avatara.1042 said:

Nicely said.  It has always bugged me as an elementalist main how bad my breakbar damage is, especially when it comes to utility skills.

It depends. Weaver breakbar damage is very good but behind attunements. All utility cc is on icebow and lightning hammer. Wouldnt be an issue if conjures wouldnt be so weak.

Deepfreeze does 400 while sanctuary does 1050 on a lower cd.

[Avatara.1042]

On 3/23/2023 at 1:22 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

It depends. Weaver breakbar damage is very good but behind attunements. All utility cc is on icebow and lightning hammer. Wouldnt be an issue if conjures wouldnt be so weak.

Deepfreeze does 400 while sanctuary does 1050 on a lower cd.

I play a Weaver.  Rapidly switching through 6 attunements for your CC, is not the same as hitting one utility button or just weapon swapping.

[AlPower.2476]

Ahh I miss Heal Druid, Rifle + bomb kit Holo, Core BS Warrior and Darevil's basilisk the CC lords

 

 

[The Boz.2038]

Need standardized type and effect of breakbars, one that is clearly communicated.
Red breakbar? Enemy is doing A Big Attack, break it to stop it.
Blue? It's just there, chilling. Break it to stun the enemy.
Yellow? Enemy has increased resistances and is healing.
Etc.
And no more "you broke the bar, now it regenerated, nothing really happened, good job".

[SilverOwl.5071]

New player facing defiance bar in HoT champ event would have just keep poking instead of breaking the bar so we can continue damaging the hp bar, this is indeed an issue that needs to be taught to new players.