Condi Daredevil

[ibThuggin.1758]

I find it funny the devs have yet to nerf this completely broken spec. I remember they nerfed Turrets into the ground, I don't think it needed to completely decimate an entire skill line, but hell they did it anyways. However, this is far, far worse yet they are allowed to continue. 10 bucks says one of the balance team devs has a thief main.

[sephiroth.4217]

As I said in an earlier post, I have no issue with this build and think it's the 900 range being OP.

I started to use this build recently to see why the complaints, it appears no one knows how to counter me when I play the build. Maybe 1 person in 4 games will have the knowledge and experience to counter me or be running adequate condition removals. I stand by the 900 range still being OP, I found myself relying on that a little too much for pressuring some builds such as Necro at a safe distance.

Another key note I found, Using my S/D condi build combined with a Necro using Plaguelands and Epidemic is way too much condition pressure for the other team to handle.

1 week and everything is going to change, so it will be interesting where it stands after PoF release.

[Link.1049]

@OlrunTheBlade.1486 said:It doesn't really struggle with anything... what classes are you talking about? Anyway, in terms of Conquest, that counterplay doesn't really hold. If they stand off point and Sword 2 in, then sure, you can run to their return... at which point they just stand on the node and gain cap progress. The Sword 2 times out and then they leave one on the point and port to you. The only way to force them back while waiting at their return is when fighting it with multiple people or another Condi Thief...

I would suggest you look at your traits... if this is wrecking you chances are you are working with a build that has insufficient condition cleanse. That or your timing is just off. Rangers counter this pretty easily as they can clear a lot of condi and have several options to lock the thief down. I've found when I'm against guardians and ele's I can tell immediately if they have enough condi clear traited. For guardian....either drop your traps on the point, or their return. Bunker ele can hold off indef since this build has very very few interrupts... An ele with diamond skin is an ele I have to walk away from... and a burn guardian is the same IF they know how to cycle their condition clears. This build works great against other thieves (which has always been about who gets the drop on the other). It's good against mesmers (stealth shatter mesmers can one shot this build if they time it correctly). I've found engi's, warriors, and necros have the most issue with this build.... and with them it usually comes to timing. Often players tend to pop their condition cleanse the second they see a stack of something, don't be one of those. Thief has to be patient with some classes, same with other classes on this build, keep your eyes open... and strike when he's vulnerable. To me, it sounds like when you're confronted with condi thief, your instinct is to panic. That's what we're hoping for.

[Link.1049]

Keep in mind that a thief's ability to dart in and out of combat is their advantage. When fighting a thief... if you eliminate that advantage you eliminate the thief.

[babazhook.6805]

@sephiroth.4217 said:As I said in an earlier post, I have no issue with this build and think it's the 900 range being OP.

I started to use this build recently to see why the complaints, it appears no one knows how to counter me when I play the build. Maybe 1 person in 4 games will have the knowledge and experience to counter me or be running adequate condition removals. I stand by the 900 range still being OP, I found myself relying on that a little too much for pressuring some builds such as Necro at a safe distance.

Another key note I found, Using my S/D condi build combined with a Necro using Plaguelands and Epidemic is way too much condition pressure for the other team to handle.

1 week and everything is going to change, so it will be interesting where it stands after PoF release.

One way to counter this is the same as when one counters any thief build that relies on spamming a particular skill that costs INI.

You do not have to avoid all of the attacks. An indvidual attack will not do you in. All you have to do is avoid a percentage of the same and this increases INI spent for damage inflicted which thief can not afford to do. S/d's single largest defensive mechanism is its port away. There no blind. Stealth is not as easy as with D/p. If they burn off all those ports just to apply poison stacks and one avoids/blocks one or two of said ports then the s/d thief is in a weak position defensively which is when you pressure.

If you face this thing on a Power s/d thief you can pretty well remove cover condtions at will (if traited acro) and quite readily peel off the damging conditions with your own ports.

[lLobo.7960]

The main problem is all the passive condi application. This lets the thief to spec more tanky and deal a lot of dmg since it doesnt use crits.If instead of applying poison on every immobilize it applied on immobilizes from critical hits, then the thief would have to be much more glassy to deal the same pressure they do right now, balancing the build more.

Same for mesmers (dealing confusion on every blind and shatters), and necros (bleeds on chill)...Passive conditions application needs to be moved to crit effects so if the player wants that condi burst he needs be gear glassy.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/2296/suggestion-move-more-cond-application-from-passive-to-crit-hits

[sephiroth.4217]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:As I said in an earlier post, I have no issue with this build and think it's the 900 range being OP.

I started to use this build recently to see why the complaints, it appears no one knows how to counter me when I play the build. Maybe 1 person in 4 games will have the knowledge and experience to counter me or be running adequate condition removals. I stand by the 900 range still being OP, I found myself relying on that a little too much for pressuring some builds such as Necro at a safe distance.

Another key note I found, Using my S/D condi build combined with a Necro using Plaguelands and Epidemic is way too much condition pressure for the other team to handle.

1 week and everything is going to change, so it will be interesting where it stands after PoF release.

One way to counter this is the same as when one counters any thief build that relies on spamming a particular skill that costs INI.

You do not have to avoid all of the attacks. An indvidual attack will not do you in. All you have to do is avoid a percentage of the same and this increases INI spent for damage inflicted which thief can not afford to do. S/d's single largest defensive mechanism is its port away. There no blind. Stealth is not as easy as with D/p. If they burn off all those ports just to apply poison stacks and one avoids/blocks one or two of said ports then the s/d thief is in a weak position defensively which is when you pressure.

If you face this thing on a Power s/d thief you can pretty well remove cover condtions at will (if traited acro) and quite readily peel off the damging conditions with your own ports.

I'm not a Thief main, I'm an Ele main. I just want to make that clear before I proceed. I've also got no issue facing Condition thieves as an Ele.

I'm not entirely sure what the meta build is, but I ran DA/Trick/DD. Thorn Runes with Doom sigils with S/D and Shortbow. It's been about 3 or so days of the build now and I've progressively gotten better at using this build. There is NO WAY anyone can dodge your burst. It's as simple as using your venoms, 2 spam twice but on the second time use steal while they are immob, couple of dodges and port back. Just wait, wait, wait, port in from 900 range away and apply some more conditions and port out.. wait, wait, wait, port in, CnD, stomp, port out. Keeping in mind simple things about other classes such as Hunters fortification, can't clear conditions at a huge rate if I don't attack him after burst (I see a lot throw up blocks after being hit the first time and then they start to look where it came from). If it's a Necro, apply conditions then hide so he can't transfer them. If it's a Warrior, wait out the stance and steal the boon, Waiting for the Ele to leave Water and so forth.Stealth is really easy with S/D, evades are plentiful. The 2 spam was never used defensively on my end. It was always to apply pressure or use in conjunction with shadowstep to return to the previous node asap for as much map control as possible.

From my perspective on what I found gave me the advantage.

• The range on the sword 2.
• Sword 2 can port without line of sight. I found myself abusing this quite a lot on every map except Legacy and even then from the top of cliffs where the bridges are is an extremely hard place for anyone to reach that isn't a thief aswell.
• Applying Venoms on Dodge.
• Basic knowledge of other classes.

Everything else about this build feels in line with other condition classes but I'm not overly fussed due to the expansion in a few days. I know I'm going to get creamed by every OP build imaginable that will make this and many current threads redundant.

[babazhook.6805]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:As I said in an earlier post, I have no issue with this build and think it's the 900 range being OP.

I started to use this build recently to see why the complaints, it appears no one knows how to counter me when I play the build. Maybe 1 person in 4 games will have the knowledge and experience to counter me or be running adequate condition removals. I stand by the 900 range still being OP, I found myself relying on that a little too much for pressuring some builds such as Necro at a safe distance.

Another key note I found, Using my S/D condi build combined with a Necro using Plaguelands and Epidemic is way too much condition pressure for the other team to handle.

1 week and everything is going to change, so it will be interesting where it stands after PoF release.

One way to counter this is the same as when one counters any thief build that relies on spamming a particular skill that costs INI.

You do not have to avoid all of the attacks. An indvidual attack will not do you in. All you have to do is avoid a percentage of the same and this increases INI spent for damage inflicted which thief can not afford to do. S/d's single largest defensive mechanism is its port away. There no blind. Stealth is not as easy as with D/p. If they burn off all those ports just to apply poison stacks and one avoids/blocks one or two of said ports then the s/d thief is in a weak position defensively which is when you pressure.

If you face this thing on a Power s/d thief you can pretty well remove cover condtions at will (if traited acro) and quite readily peel off the damging conditions with your own ports.

I'm not a Thief main, I'm an Ele main. I just want to make that clear before I proceed. I've also got no issue facing Condition thieves as an Ele.

I'm not entirely sure what the meta build is, but I ran DA/Trick/DD. Thorn Runes with Doom sigils with S/D and Shortbow. It's been about 3 or so days of the build now and I've progressively gotten better at using this build. There is NO WAY anyone can dodge your burst. It's as simple as using your venoms, 2 spam twice but on the second time use steal while they are immob, couple of dodges and port back. Just wait, wait, wait, port in from 900 range away and apply some more conditions and port out.. wait, wait, wait, port in, CnD, stomp, port out. Keeping in mind simple things about other classes such as Hunters fortification, can't clear conditions at a huge rate if I don't attack him after burst (I see a lot throw up blocks after being hit the first time and then they start to look where it came from). If it's a Necro, apply conditions then hide so he can't transfer them. If it's a Warrior, wait out the stance and steal the boon, Waiting for the Ele to leave Water and so forth.Stealth is really easy with S/D, evades are plentiful. The 2 spam was never used defensively on my end. It was always to apply pressure or use in conjunction with shadowstep to return to the previous node asap for as much map control as possible.

From my perspective on what I found gave me the advantage.

• The range on the sword 2.
• Sword 2 can port without line of sight. I found myself abusing this quite a lot on every map except Legacy and even then from the top of cliffs where the bridges are is an extremely hard place for anyone to reach that isn't a thief aswell.
• Applying Venoms on Dodge.
• Basic knowledge of other classes.

Everything else about this build feels in line with other condition classes but I'm not overly fussed due to the expansion in a few days. I know I'm going to get creamed by every OP build imaginable that will make this and many current threads redundant.

I am not sure where you get there no way to dodge the Burst on a thief. It hard but it certainly can be done and you can train yourself to time againts the same and the steal is the biggest burst. Good players can evade my steals. I evade that of other players and am hardly elite.

To dodging the ports. The thief is porting in to Immobolize you so he can use Unctachable over top or impaling lotus. His immob is not forever. You break that immob and dodge. You are not waiting for him to dodge to reply in kind. You are anticipating what he is going to do. The majority of thieves are very predictable when it comes to what they are going to do next. The ones that are not are the ones that are NOT spamming skills.

Impaling lotus and its venom adds are not unblockable. You can throw up blocks when Immob . If you evade or block those conditions inflicted by the enemy dodge, then there far less in the way of cover conditions to get rid of. Just as YOU time when you are going back in to reapply when on the defensive against such a build you are empowered to do the same. It can become very cat and mouse. Again you are not trying to avoid every condition application. You only need to avoid a few so as to decrease that thiefs efificiency on his INI or endurance spent.

Now just as an example assume your thief faced s/d power (or any other thief for that matter that traits properly). Your immobs will never work. The thief you face can break them as fast as you apply them or be immune to the same. Your ports are thus doing little in the way of damage. Your dodges might apply Torment and bleed with a cripple but the enemy S/d can removes this all with something like Withdraw coupled with his own ports. We are not even talking about using a formal cleanse yet. I have faced some few of these thieves in WvW on my s/d power and p/p staff build and they tend to run after they find they can not get their conditions to stick and are getting outdamaged by the power response.

You have already stated you have no issues with them on your Ele build. I fail to understand what is deemed OP.

[Razor.6392]

It's an obvious example of the No risk - gigantic reward that has been going on in this game's pvp for years. Also happens to be extremely easy to play, while for some classes it can be quite hard to deal with it. (psst this is not good design!)

How to fix it? Simple: Remove poison on panic strike immobilization. That's all it takes.

If you wanna go further, mix Potent Poison with Dagger Training in some way, so that condi thieves MUST pick Dagger Training (losing Mug) and use d/d instead of sword, which is much more manageable. S/D is not, and has never been a condi weapon set. It's just being abused due to the buffs to infiltrator strike and panic strike.

[Burnfall.9573]

No thief redeisgn/rehaul, nerfs are meaningless.

No more nerfs pls, if you need, REHAUL the class COMPLhttps://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/thief/No-more-nerfs-pls-if-you-need-REHAUL-the-class-COMPLETELY

Here is a reality check why thief remain in their statehttps://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/thief/Things-that-could-use-a-buff/first

Not satisfy yet? How about 59% of threads including posts which concerns thief in their state written by players since gw2 released closed? Is that accidental or intentional to hide the truth of thief being badly designed?

Open your eyes and see what asking for thief nerfs are doing: Daredevil is a replacement of thief nerfs, the upcoming Deadeye is a replacement of thief nerfs. The cycle will just continue and continue with each thief replica>specialization.

Condi thief, Condi Daredevil, Condi Deadeye..... the cycle continues. How about damage spikes? Spike Damage thief, Spike Damage Daredveil, Spike Damage Deadeye...-Deadeye spiking damage over 43k ?,-

Doesn't anyone of this concerns you?

The ones whose benefiting of asking for nerfs aren't you but Anet> Thief.

Demand Anet to completely redesign/overhall thief class or pay the price with having more thief replica's>specializations

[Zenith.7301]

@ThePlayMaker.1058 said:Out of the many condi builds that I've seen in recent times, this one has got to be the most annoying one.

Firstly, I know this build does not have the same roaming pressure as the meta daredevil build, but it shines in point capture/defense. How exactly is it fair for someone to be able to dodge 6-7 times in a row, while applying multiple damaging conditions repeatedly with almost no way of stopping them? Sure, reflects/projectile blocks can prevent the first few daggers from being thrown, and condi cleanses can be held for as long as possible, but how exactly is this build balanced for pvp?

I mean there is almost no risk, and plenty of reward. Worst case scenario you get downed after contesting a point for a good minute and your teammates are able to join you or contest another point easily. This build, if played right, can have a thief going 1v3 on a single capture point with very little risk, since you can always stealth out and constantly refill endurance.

Is there anything in particular that hard counters these daredevil builds to the point where it could be considered 'balanced'?

They gutted BM ranger evade traits long ago because they "dodged too much" and then went and gave thief a specialization with many times more evade and damage on top of mobility.

They can't make up their minds on giving classes unparalleled mobility on top of ridiculous uptime on evade frames. That's never going to be a good mix.

You can't have a class that is the most mobile also be the most evasive on top of the greatest untelegraphed burst.

Shadowstep abilities are way overtuned for a class that has so many evades and an incredibly potent short cd heal.

[ibThuggin.1758]

Well fight fire with fire right? Just built a poison focused condition Engineer spec to deal with this broken crap. Since most thieves suck and are pussies, it is working out quite well for now.

[sephiroth.4217]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:As I said in an earlier post, I have no issue with this build and think it's the 900 range being OP.

I started to use this build recently to see why the complaints, it appears no one knows how to counter me when I play the build. Maybe 1 person in 4 games will have the knowledge and experience to counter me or be running adequate condition removals. I stand by the 900 range still being OP, I found myself relying on that a little too much for pressuring some builds such as Necro at a safe distance.

Another key note I found, Using my S/D condi build combined with a Necro using Plaguelands and Epidemic is way too much condition pressure for the other team to handle.

1 week and everything is going to change, so it will be interesting where it stands after PoF release.

One way to counter this is the same as when one counters any thief build that relies on spamming a particular skill that costs INI.

You do not have to avoid all of the attacks. An indvidual attack will not do you in. All you have to do is avoid a percentage of the same and this increases INI spent for damage inflicted which thief can not afford to do. S/d's single largest defensive mechanism is its port away. There no blind. Stealth is not as easy as with D/p. If they burn off all those ports just to apply poison stacks and one avoids/blocks one or two of said ports then the s/d thief is in a weak position defensively which is when you pressure.

If you face this thing on a Power s/d thief you can pretty well remove cover condtions at will (if traited acro) and quite readily peel off the damging conditions with your own ports.

I'm not a Thief main, I'm an Ele main. I just want to make that clear before I proceed. I've also got no issue facing Condition thieves as an Ele.

I'm not entirely sure what the meta build is, but I ran DA/Trick/DD. Thorn Runes with Doom sigils with S/D and Shortbow. It's been about 3 or so days of the build now and I've progressively gotten better at using this build. There is NO WAY anyone can dodge your burst. It's as simple as using your venoms, 2 spam twice but on the second time use steal while they are immob, couple of dodges and port back. Just wait, wait, wait, port in from 900 range away and apply some more conditions and port out.. wait, wait, wait, port in, CnD, stomp, port out. Keeping in mind simple things about other classes such as Hunters fortification, can't clear conditions at a huge rate if I don't attack him after burst (I see a lot throw up blocks after being hit the first time and then they start to look where it came from). If it's a Necro, apply conditions then hide so he can't transfer them. If it's a Warrior, wait out the stance and steal the boon, Waiting for the Ele to leave Water and so forth.Stealth is really easy with S/D, evades are plentiful. The 2 spam was never used defensively on my end. It was always to apply pressure or use in conjunction with shadowstep to return to the previous node asap for as much map control as possible.

From my perspective on what I found gave me the advantage.

• The range on the sword 2.
• Sword 2 can port without line of sight. I found myself abusing this quite a lot on every map except Legacy and even then from the top of cliffs where the bridges are is an extremely hard place for anyone to reach that isn't a thief aswell.
• Applying Venoms on Dodge.
• Basic knowledge of other classes.

Everything else about this build feels in line with other condition classes but I'm not overly fussed due to the expansion in a few days. I know I'm going to get creamed by every OP build imaginable that will make this and many current threads redundant.

I am not sure where you get there no way to dodge the Burst on a thief. It hard but it certainly can be done and you can train yourself to time againts the same and the steal is the biggest burst. Good players can evade my steals. I evade that of other players and am hardly elite.

To dodging the ports. The thief is porting in to Immobolize you so he can use Unctachable over top or impaling lotus. His immob is not forever. You break that immob and dodge. You are not waiting for him to dodge to reply in kind. You are anticipating what he is going to do. The majority of thieves are very predictable when it comes to what they are going to do next. The ones that are not are the ones that are NOT spamming skills.

Impaling lotus and its venom adds are not unblockable. You can throw up blocks when Immob . If you evade or block those conditions inflicted by the enemy dodge, then there far less in the way of cover conditions to get rid of. Just as YOU time when you are going back in to reapply when on the defensive against such a build you are empowered to do the same. It can become very cat and mouse. Again you are not trying to avoid every condition application. You only need to avoid a few so as to decrease that thiefs efificiency on his INI or endurance spent.

Now just as an example assume your thief faced s/d power (or any other thief for that matter that traits properly). Your immobs will never work. The thief you face can break them as fast as you apply them or be immune to the same. Your ports are thus doing little in the way of damage. Your dodges might apply Torment and bleed with a cripple but the enemy S/d can removes this all with something like Withdraw coupled with his own ports. We are not even talking about using a formal cleanse yet. I have faced some few of these thieves in WvW on my s/d power and p/p staff build and they tend to run after they find they can not get their conditions to stick and are getting outdamaged by the power response.

You have already stated you have no issues with them on your Ele build. I fail to understand what is deemed OP.

You are clearly misreading what I wrote twice and proceed to babble on about nonsense, ports doing damage? what? I won't be replying to you as of this post, you have a history of trolling people.

[ThePlayMaker.1058]

So I've been trying out S/D condi (low gold), and honestly it feels ridiculously strong, but the mobility is almost horrible. Thankfully shortbow 5 exists. I mean I constantly spam IS, dodge, and then port out with almost 0 damage done to me. SB 4 is crazy strong for downed enemies, and it generally feels like you throw out a ridiculous amount of condis for very little effort.Playing it only confirms that this really needs some special tuning.

[Lord Velar.1509]

@ThePlayMaker.1058 said:Out of the many condi builds that I've seen in recent times, this one has got to be the most annoying one.

Firstly, I know this build does not have the same roaming pressure as the meta daredevil build, but it shines in point capture/defense. How exactly is it fair for someone to be able to dodge 6-7 times in a row, while applying multiple damaging conditions repeatedly with almost no way of stopping them? Sure, reflects/projectile blocks can prevent the first few daggers from being thrown, and condi cleanses can be held for as long as possible, but how exactly is this build balanced for pvp?

I mean there is almost no risk, and plenty of reward. Worst case scenario you get downed after contesting a point for a good minute and your teammates are able to join you or contest another point easily. This build, if played right, can have a thief going 1v3 on a single capture point with very little risk, since you can always stealth out and constantly refill endurance.

Is there anything in particular that hard counters these daredevil builds to the point where it could be considered 'balanced'?

This again facepalm

Just like my burn guard, I KEEP TELLING YOU PEOPLE HOW TO COUNTER THEM DOES ANYONE FUCKING LISTEN FFS

Stop bitching about it already and learn what to do

Condi thieves are weak asf

You can out cleanse them and cc the shit out of them

Do any of you complaining about thieves even know how they work cause I feel like yall dont

[Amante.8109]

Of course they don't... 95% of thief bitching comes from people who have never played thief a single time in their lives, and who have put essentially zero effort into learning what the classes weaknesses and counters are.

[Seyiwaji.4082]

people used to cry about clone's death. This is not much different.

where is clone's death now?

[Razor.6392]

Idk about these nerfs. All they had to do was delete poison from panic strike.

NO ONE USES PANIC STRIKE IN PVE SO WHY EVEN KEEP IT?

[Vitali.5039]

@Razor.6392 said:NO ONE USES PANIC STRIKE IN PVE SO WHY EVEN KEEP IT?

^ Not true

[saerni.2584]

@Razor.6392 said:Idk about these nerfs. All they had to do was delete poison from panic strike.

NO ONE USES PANIC STRIKE IN PVE SO WHY EVEN KEEP IT?

Because condi builds are meant to be viable.

[Velimere.7685]

Condi Daredevil was already nerfed. Move on.

[ThePlayMaker.1058]

@Velimere.7685 said:Condi Daredevil was already nerfed. Move on.

I mean they only reduced the duration of the condis, which is fairly good, but don't think for a second that condi duration was the issue. It was the sheer number of condis constantly being applied repeatedly, with very little opportunity to kill the thief until the damage was done. By the time the thief has used all his dodges and such, you'd have probably taken half or more of your hp in damage. The exception to this is of course, projectile reflects, and holding cleanses long enough before healing.