Ideas for Future Expansion Combat Features

[Volcanis.4872]

I strongly believe with this new future expansion model there will be no more traditional elite specializations (new profession name, mechanic, weapon, skills, and traits). Instead, I think they should build on existing elite specializations by improving the core professions. Specifically, adding 1. new core weapon proficiencies, 2. adding missing core healing and elite skills, and 3. replacing bad core traits with new good ones for each profession.

 

This may seem lackluster compared to combat features in past expansions, but with future expansions releasing possibly every 1-2 years and the complexity of already balancing 9 professions with 3 elite specializations, this idea is more grounded in reality. Nevertheless, I believe this idea can create new and unmet playstyles for each profession.

 

I propose new core weapon proficiencies and new healing and elite skills should be tied to an expansion purchase (without the new expansion, these weapons and skills cannot be used). However, replacing core traits should not be tied to an expansion and be free for all players. For example:

 

Future Expansion 1

• new core weapon proficiency for each profession
• new legendary stance for Revenant with 5 new skills
• new elite skill for each profession (except Revenant)

Future Expansion 2

• new core weapon proficiency for each profession
• new legendary stance for Revenant with 5 new skills
• new elite skill for each profession (except Revenant)

Future Expansion 3

• new healing skill for each profession (except Revenant)
• new core traits replacing old core trains for each profession FREE for all players. These new core traits would create new and unmet playstyles for each profession that align with the new core weapon proficiencies and skills added in the first 2 future expansions

 

My idea only spans 3 expansions, which I think is ok since this new expansion model may or may not be successful. At least with this idea, it strengthens the core of the game. Below are specific details and ideas if you want to continue reading further.

 

New Weapon Proficiencies

 

I chose weapon proficiencies that naturally fit with the profession and could be used alongside as many elite specialization weapon proficiencies where applicable. Unfortunately some get 28 new weapons skills over 2 expansions, while others only get 4. Again, these are just my ideas, but the core concept is 2 new weapons over 2 future expansions.

 

Profession	Expansion 1 Weapon	Expansion 2 Weapon
Warrior	Staff	Main-Hand Pistol
Guardian	Warhorn	Short Bow
Revenant	Main-Hand Axe (Tengu)	Rifle (Scarlet)
Ranger	Rifle	Off-Hand Sword
Thief	Off-Hand Sword	Torch
Engineer	Torch	Off-Hand Mace
Necromancer	Main-Hand Mace	Off-Hand Axe
Elementalist	Longbow	Torch
Mesmer	Main-Hand Pistol	Warhorn

 

New Healing and Elite Slot Skills

 

7 professions (I will discuss Revenant and Engineer later) have 5 slot skill types adding up to 27 slot skills each (4 healing, 20 utility, and 3 elite skills). If we classify Guardian Shelter as a Consecration healing skill and Mesmer Ether Feast as a Illusion healing skill, then 7 professions are all missing 1 healing skill type and 2 elite skill types. If we add these 3 missing skills for each profession, they would all have 30 slot skills each, completing their set.

 

Revenant only has 4 core legendary stances adding up to 20 slot skills. If we add 2 new core legendary stances, then they would have 30 slot skills. These are my ideas:

• Legendary Tengu Stance - Talon Silverwing
• Legendary Terrorist Stance - Scarlet Briar

 

Engineer is in an odd position since it only has 4 slot skill types (Elixir, Engineering Kits, Gadget, Turret). Bladesworn introduced the Armament skill type, which I believe fits Engineers quite well. I propose we rework Engineer slot skills to have 5 slot skill types. For example:

• Healing Armament - new skill
• Utility Armament - Stimpack (reclassify Elixir B as an Armament)
• Utility Armament - Throw Mine (reclassify Throw Mine as an Armament)
• Utility Armament - new skill
• Elite Armament - new skill

 

I propose Grenade Kit and Rocket Turret should be removed since Elite Mortar Kit and Rifle Turret respectively are very similar and can be reworked to include important aspects of Grenade Kit and Rocket Turret. I know this is controversial, but the end result would be 5 Armaments, 5 Elixirs, 5 Engineering Kits, 4 Gadgets, and 5 Turrets. Adding a Gadget elite skill would total to 30 slot skills and complete the set.

 

Thank you for reading and please critique my ideas if you have time.

 

[Serephen.3420]

At first I was thinking...another one of these threads. However, after giving it a proper read through I can see you put a lot of thought into it and I can say I am overall supportive of this kind of idea. Even though I was in the camp strongly for more elite specs I could see something like this being more viable to sustain. 

 

I guess it would depend on how they implement it. I still believe weapons are the largest factor in changing how something plays and so it would be important for them to keep doing so in order to keep things fresh and interesting. 

[Dadnir.5038]

Personally, here is how I imagine these mini X-pack in the most optiistic light:

• A storyline
• A mastery path
• A new dungeon path/fractal/raid/strike (maybe a combination of these)
• An universal e-spec
• Lots of goodies to the trading post.
• For revenant, they would introduce a new core "universal" legend that have a utility bar in which the revenant can slot universal and racial skills.

For example:

Example1:

• A stroyline that ask us to return to ascalon help the chaars deal with an increased amount of ghost that need to be thined out and maybe even lead us to go seal the source of the ghosts.
• A mastery path that help the player in dealing with Ghosts or recycle ghost byproducts.
• A fourth path in ascalon's catacombs and/or a strike mission (would be interesting to recycle the guild's puzzle area for such strike)
• A "Ghostbuster" e-spec featuring:
  • A traitline (it can focus on anything, but let's say light field and combo within light fields)
  • A set of devices as utility skills that produce light field when traited and mostly focus on traping or keeping foes away.
  • Either a unique original weapon or dedicate the elite skill slot to a weapon kit or even restrict the weaponswap to "a kit and a weaponset of your choice"

Example2:

• A storyline that bring us into the Human vanguard's is on the backfoot in their fight against the Haratiis that now bring massive stone golems onto the battlefield. Leading us to push beyond the hinterland harati in a new map.
• A mastery path that help us in constructing/repairing/using human siege machine (it could bring a bit of the WvW taste into GW2's open world PvE)
• A raid wing/strike against a centaur boss/camp.
• A "Vanguard" e-spec featuring:
• A traitline with a focus on mobility (increase your own and reduce your foes' mobility)
• A set of "wards" (banners like skills) to put on the battlefield.
• Either a unique original weapon or dedicate the elite skill slot to a weapon kit or even restrict the weaponswap to "a kit and a weaponset of your choice"

Exampe3:

• A storyline involving Quaggans that are in a pinch against Kraiths slavers leading us in a new map with a lot of underwater content.
• A mastery offering increased mobility underwater (maybe even a new glider for underwater).
• An underwater strike mission/underwater fractal.
• A "Liberator" e-spec (because Kraiths are slavers) featuring:
• A traitline that focus on evasion (dodge spec) with effects on dodge, endurance regen... etc.
• A set of "chants" (shouts/commands)
• Either a unique original weapon or dedicate the elite skill slot to a weapon kit or even restrict the weaponswap to "a kit and a weaponset of your choice"

Example4:

• A storyline bringing us back into HoT's area to help the hylek Nuhocs in a fight against the hylek Zintl.
• A mastery path for a new beetle mount.
• A fractal or raid wing.
• A "Herder" e-spec featuring:
• A beetle pet for everyone (ranger could end up with 2 pets but the beetle wouldn't be affected by the ranger's core traits and skills for balance purpose).
• A traitline focusing on making the beetle more useful (not the mech OP level of usefulness thought).
• A set of "commands".
• Either a unique original weapon or dedicate the elite skill slot to a weapon kit or even restrict the weaponswap to "a kit and a weaponset of your choice"

... etc.

I think I'm barely scratching the surface of the possibilities here. And the best is that since everybody have the same thing, nobody need to be jealous.

[draxynnic.3719]

Ending elite specialisations now would be incredibly unfair given how one-note the elite specialisations for some professions are. However, there's also a limit to how quickly they could realistically make them, so not committing to a new set with every mini-expansion makes sense.

 

While I think there are some core professions that can do with an additional weapon, I question whether two for every profession is a good idea, especially since they would then be available to every elite specialisation. Consider that the whole point of elite specialisations was so that they could limit which new features could be combined.

New core legends for revenants would have... issues. That plus a weapon is the majority of an elite specialisation right there, minus a traitline... which raises the issue of having to use a traitline which was intended for another legend (something which occasionally works, but...). More realistic might be a kind of 'no legend' stance which could have a small set of skills to choose from (including racials), representing skills the revenant can draw from naturally without having a legend. That would potentially have its own balance issues (they would probably need to be generally weaker than legend skills to make up for the customisation), but it could also solve a lot of problems.

A few extra core skills for the other professions, primarily getting to a heal and an elite per type, probably would be worthwhile.

I suspect 'combat features' isn't simply limited to expanding profession options, though. 

[Fueki.4753]

Viable damage on ranged weapons for Warrior would be a great new combat feature.

Make Rifle 1500 range and as effective as Ranger's Longbow.

Make Longbow as strong as Renegade's Shortbow is.

[Batalix.2873]

Disagree with pretty much all of this.

 

The approach is too "completionist" and "weapons" focused, and not really considering holistic design, i.e.:

 

1. Whether these new especs would even have coherent concepts and unique niches.

 

2. If these weapons conceptually sync with the professions or espec archetypes at all (most existing weapons, in fact, do). Not to mention balancing that against the fact that every new core weapon added makes the professions feel less distinct from each other.

 

3. Whether combat and class design can even sustain the addition of this many new especs while maintaining some reasonable degree of job fantasy and mechanical diversity,  and consequently player choice and agency.

 

Not to mention, the sheer amount of resources required to develop, test, and balance especs resulting in so many aspects of the game being shortchanged for years. The very idea of us getting more than one last set of especs (and even that is unlikely, and unlikely to happen all at once) is quite improbable.

 

If, after 27 fairly well-realized especs, you cannot find at least one archetype that appeals to you, and you somehow demand 9 or even 18 more archetypes to continue playing this game, I think maybe you should find other games to play.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Infusion.7149]

Re: your profession weapon choices listed:
 

Quote

Profession	Expansion 1 Weapon	Expansion 2 Weapon
Warrior	Staff	Main-Hand Pistol
Guardian	Warhorn	Short Bow
Revenant	Main-Hand Axe (Tengu)	Rifle (Scarlet)
Ranger	Rifle	Off-Hand Sword
Thief	Off-Hand Sword	Torch
Engineer	Torch	Off-Hand Mace
Necromancer	Main-Hand Mace	Off-Hand Axe
Elementalist	Longbow	Torch
Mesmer	Main-Hand Pistol	Warhorn

 

Warrior is in need of a support weapon and so is mesmer to an extent. I am almost certain if some traits and skills were changed around warrior could be a contender now that banners provide boons. For example if mace+shield were able to heal other people or provide barriers that would make a heal quickness warrior possible. I have long given up on a ranged warrior, the closest you will probably get in the current state of affairs is a longbow condi berserker. The melee ranged pistol on bladesworn is kind of meme you would expect if picking up a mainhand pistol. At one point I thought we would see a melee staff wielding warrior in a similar vein to revenant staff, but with barriers instead of heals.
--- also adding confusion application onto mace would make it more effective across the board

Guardian could use more offensive condi weapons for the core set (mainhand in particular). I don't think that warhorn is the answer unless you want to be able to use sword+warhorn with swiftness output for mobility. Most condition variants other than firebrand are relying on multi-hit attacks to trigger Virtue of Justice. For now you pretty much are relegated to sword or scepter mainhand with torch offhand. Shortbow as a condi weapon focused on burning and bleeding would be a better option probably.

Revenant mainhand axe would not do much for it unless it a CC focused weapon. Revenant already has mainhand power and condition weapons, so the only thing a mainhand axe would allow for is a hybrid weapon (akin to shortbow) since mace is heavily condi reliant with low power coefficients. I also do not see how rifle could be drastically different from what hammer does right now.
--- I do not feel new legends would be added without a new elite spec

Ranger rifle might be the best option for it given the alternatives, the only other option really being scepter which could only be proper facilitated with an elite spec. Unless the rifle has some AoE on it (or innate piercing and CC) it does not have major differentiation to longbow or shortbow. Offhand sword does not seem a strong contender unless it does heavy strike damage to a single target (which would mean it competes with Greatsword).

Thief with dual swords was a class fantasy people were asking for at the inception of EoD along with greatsword. Scepter was a disappointment for those people, but dual swords being part of core is easily attainable and could allow for other power variants besides dagger mainhand, rifle, and staff daredevil.

Engineer could really use a melee power mainhand weapon, but ultimately it is reliant on kits. A torch does not really provide much of a change from offhand pistol unless you load a bunch of burning and bleeding onto it that exceeds what pistol provides. If you wanted hard CC you would run shield. Meanwhile you are asking for grenade kit to be removed which is a terrible idea since every damage build runs it in PvE even on condi builds.

Necromancer with mainhand mace is kind of confusing to me, unless you want it to a melee power based CC weapon or an outright melee support weapon. Similarly offhand axe would probably be a power offhand, seeing how warhorn and focus do not fulfill that premise.

Elementalist with a longbow would have to be more offensive than staff with lower travel time. If it does not emphasis line attacks then there is too much overlap with staff AoE. I don't think torch is the answer since water/air/earth would struggle with theme.

Mesmer with mainhand pistol is curious to me, unless you want to emphasize a projectile mainhand CC weapon or shift the focus from torment/confusion type weapons to bleeding which is in line with virtuoso. Warhorn is probably not going to help make a heal support mesmer unless it puts a barrier on people or something. StM Chrono relies on shield for protection/blocking as well as quickness.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Thorne Templar.6784]

Yes, we do love getting new playstyles added to the game, but the cost of balancing them all is growing too. I'd prefer that the current options get fleshed out more and balanced better. Some of the newer specs like Willbender, Untamed, Virtuoso, and Harbinger all have very boring or one note traits that are either "Gain X% of your Y as Z" or "Get X boon whenever you do Y thing." These sorts of things are okay, but I'd prefer more meaningful interactions such as Ranger's quick draw or Chronomancer's chronophantasma that fundamentally alter things further from the original designs. 

 

Another thing is that since GW2 has started to focus more on roles, I'd like to see each current elite spec (that doesn't already fulfill a nice clear role) to be able to perform a role better. In that vein I'd love for some of the less fun boon-granting methods (that usually result in you spamming most of your utility skills off cooldown) to be made more interactive.

[Volcanis.4872]

8 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think I'm barely scratching the surface of the possibilities here. And the best is that since everybody have the same thing, nobody need to be jealous.

Universal elite specialization is interesting, but I worry it would dilute profession identity a bit. While some players have 1 of every profession and so a universal elite specialization is just another toy to play with, some like to play mostly or exclusively a single profession and now it doesn't matter they are a Warrior, a group composition may suggest to switch to Ghostbuster to clear the content most efficiently. I do like the concept through, just playing devil's advocate.

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

New core legends for revenants would have... issues. That plus a weapon is the majority of an elite specialisation right there, minus a traitline... which raises the issue of having to use a traitline which was intended for another legend (something which occasionally works, but...).

I think new core legends could work because the trait lines are not named after the legend they focus on. Salvation and Retribution could have traits specifically for Tengu stance and Corruption and Devastation could have traits specifically for Scarlet stance.

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Viable damage on ranged weapons for Warrior would be a great new combat feature.

Make Rifle 1500 range and as effective as Ranger's Longbow.

Make Longbow as strong as Renegade's Shortbow is.

I agree, but this could be achieved with regular balance updates.

39 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Disagree with pretty much all of this.

 

The approach is too "completionist" and "weapons" focused, and not really considering holistic design, i.e.:

 

1. Whether these new especs would even have coherent concepts and unique niches.

 

2. If these weapons conceptually sync with the professions or espec archetypes at all (most, in fact, do). Not to mention balancing that against the fact that every new core weapon added makes the professions feel less distinct from each other.

 

3. Whether combat and class design can even sustain the addition of this many new especs while maintaining some reasonable degree of job fantasy and mechanical diversity,  and consequently player choice and agency.

 

Not to mention, the sheer amount of resources required to develop, test, and balance especs resulting in so many aspects of the game being shortchanged for years. The very idea of us getting more than one last set of especs (and even that is unlikely, and unlikely to happen all at once) is quite improbable.

 

If, after 27 fairly well-realized especs, you cannot find at least one archetype that appeals to you, and you somehow demand 9 or even 18 more archetypes to continue playing this game, I think maybe you should find other games to play.

Thanks for your comment. I do agree it has a vibe of completionism. I'm not too sure if I understand your statements, these are not elite specializations, just weapon proficiencies mainly (which I understand is still a lot of work). Are you saying that with future expansions ArenaNet does not need to add anything to existing professions and what we currently have is enough if fine tuned? If so, I believe future expansions would not sell many copies.

45 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Re: your profession weapon choices listed:

Thanks for you comment and great points. In general I do feel there are gaps in roles and playstyles for all professions and new weapon skills could fill in those gaps. I don't have any firm ideas at present, but your points are certainly valid.

48 minutes ago, Thorne Templar.6784 said:

I'd prefer more meaningful interactions such as Ranger's quick draw or Chronomancer's chronophantasma that fundamentally alter things further from the original designs. 

 

I'd love for some of the less fun boon-granting methods (that usually result in you spamming most of your utility skills off cooldown) to be made more interactive.

I agree wholeheartedly. I hope the balance team can address these concerns before we add new toys for each profession.

[Serephen.3420]

13 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Personally, here is how I imagine these mini X-pack in the most optiistic light:

• A storyline
• A mastery path
• A new dungeon path/fractal/raid/strike (maybe a combination of these)
• An universal e-spec
• Lots of goodies to the trading post.
• For revenant, they would introduce a new core "universal" legend that have a utility bar in which the revenant can slot universal and racial skills.

For example:

Example1:

• A stroyline that ask us to return to ascalon help the chaars deal with an increased amount of ghost that need to be thined out and maybe even lead us to go seal the source of the ghosts.
• A mastery path that help the player in dealing with Ghosts or recycle ghost byproducts.
• A fourth path in ascalon's catacombs and/or a strike mission (would be interesting to recycle the guild's puzzle area for such strike)
• A "Ghostbuster" e-spec featuring:
  • A traitline (it can focus on anything, but let's say light field and combo within light fields)
  • A set of devices as utility skills that produce light field when traited and mostly focus on traping or keeping foes away.
  • Either a unique original weapon or dedicate the elite skill slot to a weapon kit or even restrict the weaponswap to "a kit and a weaponset of your choice"

Example2:

• A storyline that bring us into the Human vanguard's is on the backfoot in their fight against the Haratiis that now bring massive stone golems onto the battlefield. Leading us to push beyond the hinterland harati in a new map.
• A mastery path that help us in constructing/repairing/using human siege machine (it could bring a bit of the WvW taste into GW2's open world PvE)
• A raid wing/strike against a centaur boss/camp.
• A "Vanguard" e-spec featuring:
• A traitline with a focus on mobility (increase your own and reduce your foes' mobility)
• A set of "wards" (banners like skills) to put on the battlefield.
• Either a unique original weapon or dedicate the elite skill slot to a weapon kit or even restrict the weaponswap to "a kit and a weaponset of your choice"

Exampe3:

• A storyline involving Quaggans that are in a pinch against Kraiths slavers leading us in a new map with a lot of underwater content.
• A mastery offering increased mobility underwater (maybe even a new glider for underwater).
• An underwater strike mission/underwater fractal.
• A "Liberator" e-spec (because Kraiths are slavers) featuring:
• A traitline that focus on evasion (dodge spec) with effects on dodge, endurance regen... etc.
• A set of "chants" (shouts/commands)
• Either a unique original weapon or dedicate the elite skill slot to a weapon kit or even restrict the weaponswap to "a kit and a weaponset of your choice"

Example4:

• A storyline bringing us back into HoT's area to help the hylek Nuhocs in a fight against the hylek Zintl.
• A mastery path for a new beetle mount.
• A fractal or raid wing.
• A "Herder" e-spec featuring:
• A beetle pet for everyone (ranger could end up with 2 pets but the beetle wouldn't be affected by the ranger's core traits and skills for balance purpose).
• A traitline focusing on making the beetle more useful (not the mech OP level of usefulness thought).
• A set of "commands".
• Either a unique original weapon or dedicate the elite skill slot to a weapon kit or even restrict the weaponswap to "a kit and a weaponset of your choice"

... etc.

I think I'm barely scratching the surface of the possibilities here. And the best is that since everybody have the same thing, nobody need to be jealous.

I appreciate the enthusiasm you have in posting this in multiple threads.

However I'm sorry but I don't see how a universal e-spec could work or be at all balanced between classes. At best it would end up on par with racial skills and we know how great those are. Another thing is if everybody hasthe sane thing thungs can get boring and stale faster.

Anyways not trying to beat down on it too much but I'mstrongly against monochroming classes to that degree.

[Batalix.2873]

11 hours ago, Volcanis.4872 said:

Thanks for your comment. I do agree it has a vibe of completionism. I'm not too sure if I understand your statements, these are not elite specializations, just weapon proficiencies mainly (which I understand is still a lot of work). Are you saying that with future expansions ArenaNet does not need to add anything to existing professions and what we currently have is enough if fine tuned? If so, I believe future expansions would not sell many copies.

 

 

Ah I misunderstood elite skill for elite spec. 

 

I still think a lot of your proposals are kind of reaching just to get two weapons. I'm not even sure if we could make one full set that feels appropriate across all professions.

 

Plus, espec or core, there is something to be said about no focus (or scepter) in your proposals. There is clearly a loose aim to try to release 2-ish especs with each weapon type, presumably to (a) double down on and justify the weapon spread as designed and (b) give players reasons to make legendary versions of every weapon. So far we only have one espec per mace, scepter, warhorn, shortbow, longbow, and rifle. But there isn't a single espec that uses a focus yet, and only four professions that use it as core. Focus is hands down the most likely weapon to appear in future content if we get any new proficiencies/especs.

[Dadnir.5038]

10 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I appreciate the enthusiasm you have in posting this in multiple threads.

However I'm sorry but I don't see how a universal e-spec could work or be at all balanced between classes. At best it would end up on par with racial skills and we know how great those are. Another thing is if everybody hasthe sane thing thungs can get boring and stale faster.

Anyways not trying to beat down on it too much but I'mstrongly against monochroming classes to that degree.

I think you don't really understand the concept.

The first thing is that it wouldn't be just "on par" with racial skills because racial skills are deliberately kept bad in order to avoid players flocking onto a single race.

The second thing is that if you read the announcement that lead to these threads, the mini x-packs are supposed to be released every 6 month so it basically mean an universal e-spec every 6 month while a complete set of e-spec would likely happen every 4-5 years. So if anything, such concept make the game less stale than it already is.

Third and not least, an e-spec build is made out of a combination of an e-spec traitline, 2 core traitlines, e-specs skillset and core skillsets. If anything it mean that there is plenty of room for diversity and each profession will tackle those universal e-spec in their own way.

All in all, I don't think that "you" specifically being "strongly against" the idea is a good enough reason to shelve out this idea. I also do think that this is a public forum where everyone have the right to give their own ideas. (Be happy I have noted that your strongly against my idea, just like I have noted that the autor of the thread is more open than you to the concept.)

[draxynnic.3719]

I didn't get any impression that we'd get a miniexpansion every six months. Much the opposite, in fact - they're still going to be releasing an unspecified number of new maps which are released in two parts outside of expansions between each expansion, with something being released every three months. So that means that one Gyala-style map represents six months worth of releases (keeping in mind that the current map is only half of the final map), with each mini-expansion having at least one such map between it and the next. That gives a minimum of 9 months between mini-expansion.

 

19 hours ago, Volcanis.4872 said:

I think new core legends could work because the trait lines are not named after the legend they focus on. Salvation and Retribution could have traits specifically for Tengu stance and Corruption and Devastation could have traits specifically for Scarlet stance.

That would involve having to remove existing traits from those lines in order to make room for traits for the new legends. I don't think that's a good approach - it would result in dilution of the themes and options currently available.

(I also don't think Talon or Scarlet make for good legends for the PC, for different reasons. Talon's descendent who actually founded the Dominion of Winds, maybe. But that's a secondary concern.

 

20 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

If, after 27 fairly well-realized especs, you cannot find at least one archetype that appeals to you, and you somehow demand 9 or even 18 more archetypes to continue playing this game, I think maybe you should find other games to play.

Many people are in exactly that situation, largely because some professions have archetypes that just repeat the same broad themes over and over again.

Warrior elite specialisations, for instance, are basically just three different ways to do DPS. They're very different ways to do DPS, to be sure, but that's what they are. Support warrior is relegated to finding the elite specialisation that is the least bad fit to core warrior's support elements, and core warrior support, put bluntly, isn't great. Warrior really needs a support-oriented elite specialisation in order to round it out.

Elementalist, despite being described as a ranged-oriented profession in character creation, has had all three elite specialisations designed and marketed as elementalist variants that fight at melee ranges. There have been bones thrown towards having those specialisations apply to ranged builds, but they're still ultimately designed for melee (weaver utilities are optimised for melee, catalyst wants both itself and its enemies to be within its spheres, although this is less important in competitive, and tempest, well, everything). Elementalist really needs at least one genuine ranged-oriented elite specialisation.

And that's just the most egregious examples. Engineer, for example, has a similar problem to elementalist, especially after the introduction of Mechanical Genius... it's just that it IS possible to build a ranged mech. Scrapper? Utilities are oriented towards melee. Mechanist? You want to be close to your mech, so unless your mech is ranged, you can only be so far away. Holosmith? Even with Crystal Configuration:Storm, 3/5 holoforge skills are either point-blank AoEs or a skill designed to get you into melee, and the ranged attacks that are there are only 600. And have you noticed that all three have some variant of a "damage enemies within a radius of you" skill? Sure, on mechanist, that gets centred on the mech if the mech is present, but you can only be so far away from your mech...

Some professions have a fairly well-realised set of especs, but not all. If they stop now, then that's going to cement in the current set of haves and have-nots. From their general philosophy, too, they should also be looking at genuinely getting every profession to be able to fulfil every role (if you're one of the people who thinks role should be determined by class, you should be the one finding another game - 'bring the player, not the profession' was the mantra since before release and it was recently reaffirmed), and realistically speaking, pulling that off requires at least one more set of elite specialisations. 

[Infusion.7149]

@draxynnic.3719:
The idea of bring the player not the role doesn't hold true because Arenanet made quickness/alacrity baseline on warrior and ranger. It means if they provide warrior alacrity sharing it would be replacing quickness across the board on that traitline or spec ; ranger quickness would be the same. Arenanet does consider healing a role, they have quick/alac and DPS as roles as well. Range is not factored into their balance.

 "Speaking to PvE as an example, our core roles for endgame (instanced) party content are DPS, Quickness, Alacrity, and Healing." https://www.pcgamer.com/the-future-of-guild-wars-2-arenanet-announces-return-of-season-1-and-teases-next-expansion/

The fastest way Arenanet could rectify it across the professions except for warrior and ranger would be :
* quickness with traited stolen skills (Bountiful Theft / Thrill of the Crime) on thief to bring back boon thief in some fashion, which is inherently separated from specter
* better heal (not barrier) scaling on specter in PvE unless quick/alac are the main aims
* alacrity on scourge when traited with Sand Savant or some kind of jank with Abrasive Grit
* better healing capability on mesmer overall in PvE only unless quick/alac are the main aims
--- Restorative Mantras is unwieldy
--- Illusionary Inspiration is bounded by scepter auto attack (or if someone decides to meme with heal virtuoso it triggers on blades)
--- All's Well That Ends Well currently heals on end of the well for chronos ; same goes for Well of Eternity

The followup would be:
* revamp of warrior tactics line healing to have lower base heals on offensive shouts plus soldier's comfort in exchange for lower cooldown and more scaling (so warrior can do heal quick but not heal alac) ; add barrier and possibly confusion in AoE to mace in PvE
--- warrior support has improved greatly in terms of burst "healing" (barrier) via Banner of Defense and Call of Valor
--- the main heals would be "To the Limit" when traited, "Shake it Off" (2 ammo) / "For Great Justice" (2 ammo) since you want Banner of Tactics for quickness (meaning you are locked to two traitlines : Tactics for burst heals and Discipline for quickness)
--- lowering Soldier's Comfort cooldown to effectively 4-6s would mean it could be used to top people off (you would not save your burst on a healing build) and allow you to save your larger barriers and heals for more critical situations
* perhaps make soulbeast a quickness sharing spec (Live Fast , Strider's Defense, or Instinctive Engage paired with Leader of the Pack maybe) using stances mutually exclusive with alacrity from spirits: there are heal alac druids and DPS alac untamed builds
--- Leader of the Pack could read: apply quickness in an an area when providing yourself quickness , apply quickness in an area when you would apply alacrity
--- Another option would be Eternal Bond providing quickness in AoE for PvE only but it seems a worse idea

Edited March 24, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

@draxynnic.3719:
The idea of bring the player not the role doesn't hold true because Arenanet made quickness/alacrity baseline on warrior and ranger. It means if they provide warrior alacrity sharing it would be replacing quickness across the board on that traitline or spec ; ranger quickness would be the same. Arenanet does consider healing a role, they have quick/alac and DPS as roles as well. Range is not factored into their balance.

You're assuming that they have absolutely no ability to take quickness and alacrity back out of core sometime in the future when they have suitable elite specs to make both possible for the profession. They did it with rev - they added quickness to herald, and took alacrity out of Salvation so you couldn't have both.

As for range not being factored into balance... it should be. Even in the instanced PvE content that people take refuge in to say that range doesn't matter, there's an increasing tendency to introduce mechanics that force you out of melee range of the boss, for periods long enough that it becomes worth swapping to a ranged weapon and back. They don't take it into account when it comes to damage benchmarks, but for the philosophy to be upheld, professions need to have decent ranged builds they can take if that's what the situation demands.

[Kodama.6453]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:46 PM, Volcanis.4872 said:

Engineer is in an odd position since it only has 4 slot skill types (Elixir, Engineering Kits, Gadget, Turret). Bladesworn introduced the Armament skill type, which I believe fits Engineers quite well. I propose we rework Engineer slot skills to have 5 slot skill types. For example:

• Healing Armament - new skill
• Utility Armament - Stimpack (reclassify Elixir B as an Armament)
• Utility Armament - Throw Mine (reclassify Throw Mine as an Armament)
• Utility Armament - new skill
• Elite Armament - new skill

 

I propose Grenade Kit and Rocket Turret should be removed since Elite Mortar Kit and Rifle Turret respectively are very similar and can be reworked to include important aspects of Grenade Kit and Rocket Turret. I know this is controversial, but the end result would be 5 Armaments, 5 Elixirs, 5 Engineering Kits, 4 Gadgets, and 5 Turrets. Adding a Gadget elite skill would total to 30 slot skills and complete the set.

I agree with the idea to rework/replace some of the core engineer skills to give us a 5th skill category like the other classes, therefore allowing to fill up the "missing" healing and elite skills for all classes.

But I have some slight disagreements with your specific picks here.

• Rocket Turret: Rocket turret actually still sees some play, because of it's toolbelt skill. Rocket hits really really hard, especially in competitive modes (where it still has a 2,25 power coefficient because anet forgot turrets exist, lol). The turret which sees no play whatsoever and therefore would be a better idea to replace, imo, is Net Turret. Turrets are already loaded with CC (thumper and rocket turret both hard CC enemies on overcharge in AoE), so it really doesn't bring much to the table anymore. The little single target immob every 10 seconds is just not worth taking it.
• Elixir B: Instead of making elixir b an armament, I would like to replace Elixir R instead. Again, almost no one uses that skill, it's only saving quality is the revive on toolbelt (for which we also could use scrapper's function gyro....).
• Grenade Kit: Have to admit, picking a kit to replace is the hardest part here. But grenade kit is just such an essential part of our damage builds.... and if mortar kit is supposed to replace it here, they would have to buff the mortar damage by extreme levels. On top of it being a combo field producing machine, I just don't see that happening. The kit I would replace here would most likely either be the tool kit or flamethrower.... as much as it hurts to lose one of these 2, it would probably hurt less than losing the grenade kit.

Armaments would be one possible idea for a new skill type on engineer, but let's be honest.... armaments are basically the same as gadgets.

Instead, what I would like to do more is getting traps or preparations on engineer. It's a skill type that fits the profession well and throw mine kinda already works like a trap/preparation. Would also be great if these could include some really good condition damage skills. We are still forced to kit juggle if we want to play condition builds, because all good condition damage skills are on kits. Having some good condition damage traps could change that up a bit.

[Serephen.3420]

On 3/24/2023 at 8:34 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think you don't really understand the concept.

The first thing is that it wouldn't be just "on par" with racial skills because racial skills are deliberately kept bad in order to avoid players flocking onto a single race.

The second thing is that if you read the announcement that lead to these threads, the mini x-packs are supposed to be released every 6 month so it basically mean an universal e-spec every 6 month while a complete set of e-spec would likely happen every 4-5 years. So if anything, such concept make the game less stale than it already is.

Third and not least, an e-spec build is made out of a combination of an e-spec traitline, 2 core traitlines, e-specs skillset and core skillsets. If anything it mean that there is plenty of room for diversity and each profession will tackle those universal e-spec in their own way.

All in all, I don't think that "you" specifically being "strongly against" the idea is a good enough reason to shelve out this idea. I also do think that this is a public forum where everyone have the right to give their own ideas. (Be happy I have noted that your strongly against my idea, just like I have noted that the autor of the thread is more open than you to the concept.)

They never gave a proper release schedule, certainly not every 6 months. More likely once a year. 

What I was saying is I am against the idea of further blending specs into the same thing. Which is what that part of your idea would do. I'm not against all you said. However I am more in favour of the ops suggestion of adding weapons which would be much easier to manage and balance than more traitlines. At least in my opinion which is what we are all sharing here. Just so you know it was nothing personal against you, just the idea of blurring and diluting specs in such a way.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Serephen.3420

[Volcanis.4872]

On 3/24/2023 at 2:31 AM, Batalix.2873 said:

I still think a lot of your proposals are kind of reaching just to get two weapons. I'm not even sure if we could make one full set that feels appropriate across all professions.

 

Plus, espec or core, there is something to be said about no focus (or scepter) in your proposals. 

Good point. I had some original ideas that Revenant would a focus. I could also see a scepter on Revenant as well.

On 3/24/2023 at 10:52 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

That would involve having to remove existing traits from those lines in order to make room for traits for the new legends. I don't think that's a good approach

You could combine 2 existing traits that are rarely chosen to make room for a new one or add to an existing trait to include something from the new legends.

On 3/25/2023 at 5:52 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

• Rocket Turret: Rocket turret actually still sees some play, because of it's toolbelt skill. Rocket hits really really hard, especially in competitive modes (where it still has a 2,25 power coefficient because anet forgot turrets exist, lol). The turret which sees no play whatsoever and therefore would be a better idea to replace, imo, is Net Turret. Turrets are already loaded with CC (thumper and rocket turret both hard CC enemies on overcharge in AoE), so it really doesn't bring much to the table anymore. The little single target immob every 10 seconds is just not worth taking it.
• Elixir B: Instead of making elixir b an armament, I would like to replace Elixir R instead. Again, almost no one uses that skill, it's only saving quality is the revive on toolbelt (for which we also could use scrapper's function gyro....).
• Grenade Kit: Have to admit, picking a kit to replace is the hardest part here. But grenade kit is just such an essential part of our damage builds.... and if mortar kit is supposed to replace it here, they would have to buff the mortar damage by extreme levels. On top of it being a combo field producing machine, I just don't see that happening. The kit I would replace here would most likely either be the tool kit or flamethrower.... as much as it hurts to lose one of these 2, it would probably hurt less than losing the grenade kit.

Armaments would be one possible idea for a new skill type on engineer, but let's be honest.... armaments are basically the same as gadgets.

Instead, what I would like to do more is getting traps or preparations on engineer. It's a skill type that fits the profession well and throw mine kinda already works like a trap/preparation. Would also be great if these could include some really good condition damage skills. We are still forced to kit juggle if we want to play condition builds, because all good condition damage skills are on kits. Having some good condition damage traps could change that up a bit.

Great points. I agree Traps or Preparations would fit with Engineers. And yeah, choosing which kit to remove is tough, but Grenade, Bomb, and Mortar Kit are three different explosive kits and I feel like they can be reworked into just 2 somehow.

[The Boz.2038]

Missing skills bump-up would be most appreciated.

[Polar.8634]

wow wow hold your horses. combat feature will be special action key which will give you all boons for 10 second in new living world map with 20 sec cd.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Polar.8634

[Volcanis.4872]

12 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

wow wow hold your horses. combat feature will be special action key which will give you all boons for 10 second in new living world map with 20 sec cd.

If that's what we get, ArenaNet will find themselves losing a lot of players. You may be right that we get combat features that can only be used in the new expansion area, but expansion content should have some combat features that can be used game wide. Even Icebrood Saga had the United Legions Waystation Synchronization mastery. If we get something closer to Icebrood Saga, then they should not call this an expansion and start preparing for maintenance mode, especially if these combat features are not available in WvW or PvP.

[Polar.8634]

12 hours ago, Volcanis.4872 said:

If that's what we get, ArenaNet will find themselves losing a lot of players. You may be right that we get combat features that can only be used in the new expansion area, but expansion content should have some combat features that can be used game wide. Even Icebrood Saga had the United Legions Waystation Synchronization mastery. If we get something closer to Icebrood Saga, then they should not call this an expansion and start preparing for maintenance mode, especially if these combat features are not available in WvW or PvP.

ye i am not buying if there will be no pvp/wvw usable feature. and i hope it will not be another boon creep, some specs got near to perma uptime of all boons in game which is not fun(those which did not get boons see little play), can hardly call it new content, just creep.

[Midontto.5847]

I like it when we become the Pact Commander, save the world, slay dragons, slay gods etc...and for 10 years of heroism, Engineer is still stuck with outdated turrets.

While I do agree core needs a lot of love, I don't think this approach is the best way since balancing elite specs has proven to be a pain in the kitten. So adding more to the current problem might not be it. But since they've been rolling out specs every expansion, putting it to a halt would also be problematic as many elite specs are rather bottlenecked to specific builds.

Alright, here's what I'm cookin. What if the third traitline upgrades the core specializations? This keeps elite specializations mostly untouched while adding the option of running core builds. Now all they really need to do is make improvements of what they already have instead of just making a completely new elite spec.

Like I mentioned about Engineer turrets looking rather outdated. For example, putting Inventions into the third traitline could upgrade the turrets into mobile drones that can coordinate attacks with you. Some of the traits might get improvements like Experimental Turrets could give quickness/alacrity or Overshield grants barriers to allies with shield skills. This may give new weapons to certain specializations that don't have weapon traits without effecting the elite specs.

Gives a lot of build variety, improves current class fantasies, and feels like it'd make sense story-wise. Alright balancing may or may not be a nightmare, but at least it's working on things that is already there.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Midontto.5847

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:46 PM, Volcanis.4872 said:

I strongly believe with this new future expansion model there will be no more traditional elite specializations (new profession name, mechanic, weapon, skills, and traits). Instead, I think they should build on existing elite specializations by improving the core professions. Specifically, adding 1. new core weapon proficiencies, 2. adding missing core healing and elite skills, and 3. replacing bad core traits with new good ones for each profession.

 

This may seem lackluster compared to combat features in past expansions, but with future expansions releasing possibly every 1-2 years and the complexity of already balancing 9 professions with 3 elite specializations, this idea is more grounded in reality. Nevertheless, I believe this idea can create new and unmet playstyles for each profession.

 

I propose new core weapon proficiencies and new healing and elite skills should be tied to an expansion purchase (without the new expansion, these weapons and skills cannot be used). However, replacing core traits should not be tied to an expansion and be free for all players. For example:

 

Future Expansion 1

• new core weapon proficiency for each profession
• new legendary stance for Revenant with 5 new skills
• new elite skill for each profession (except Revenant)

Future Expansion 2

• new core weapon proficiency for each profession
• new legendary stance for Revenant with 5 new skills
• new elite skill for each profession (except Revenant)

Future Expansion 3

• new healing skill for each profession (except Revenant)
• new core traits replacing old core trains for each profession FREE for all players. These new core traits would create new and unmet playstyles for each profession that align with the new core weapon proficiencies and skills added in the first 2 future expansions

 

My idea only spans 3 expansions, which I think is ok since this new expansion model may or may not be successful. At least with this idea, it strengthens the core of the game. Below are specific details and ideas if you want to continue reading further.

 

New Weapon Proficiencies

 

I chose weapon proficiencies that naturally fit with the profession and could be used alongside as many elite specialization weapon proficiencies where applicable. Unfortunately some get 28 new weapons skills over 2 expansions, while others only get 4. Again, these are just my ideas, but the core concept is 2 new weapons over 2 future expansions.

 

Profession	Expansion 1 Weapon	Expansion 2 Weapon
Warrior	Staff	Main-Hand Pistol
Guardian	Warhorn	Short Bow
Revenant	Main-Hand Axe (Tengu)	Rifle (Scarlet)
Ranger	Rifle	Off-Hand Sword
Thief	Off-Hand Sword	Torch
Engineer	Torch	Off-Hand Mace
Necromancer	Main-Hand Mace	Off-Hand Axe
Elementalist	Longbow	Torch
Mesmer	Main-Hand Pistol	Warhorn

 

New Healing and Elite Slot Skills

 

7 professions (I will discuss Revenant and Engineer later) have 5 slot skill types adding up to 27 slot skills each (4 healing, 20 utility, and 3 elite skills). If we classify Guardian Shelter as a Consecration healing skill and Mesmer Ether Feast as a Illusion healing skill, then 7 professions are all missing 1 healing skill type and 2 elite skill types. If we add these 3 missing skills for each profession, they would all have 30 slot skills each, completing their set.

 

Revenant only has 4 core legendary stances adding up to 20 slot skills. If we add 2 new core legendary stances, then they would have 30 slot skills. These are my ideas:

• Legendary Tengu Stance - Talon Silverwing
• Legendary Terrorist Stance - Scarlet Briar

 

Engineer is in an odd position since it only has 4 slot skill types (Elixir, Engineering Kits, Gadget, Turret). Bladesworn introduced the Armament skill type, which I believe fits Engineers quite well. I propose we rework Engineer slot skills to have 5 slot skill types. For example:

• Healing Armament - new skill
• Utility Armament - Stimpack (reclassify Elixir B as an Armament)
• Utility Armament - Throw Mine (reclassify Throw Mine as an Armament)
• Utility Armament - new skill
• Elite Armament - new skill

 

I propose Grenade Kit and Rocket Turret should be removed since Elite Mortar Kit and Rifle Turret respectively are very similar and can be reworked to include important aspects of Grenade Kit and Rocket Turret. I know this is controversial, but the end result would be 5 Armaments, 5 Elixirs, 5 Engineering Kits, 4 Gadgets, and 5 Turrets. Adding a Gadget elite skill would total to 30 slot skills and complete the set.

 

Thank you for reading and please critique my ideas if you have time.

 

So, first off. I am skeptical of whatever gw2 "says" it's going to do. I'll believe it when I see it. It's actually funny seeing an 11-year old game still fiddling around and NOT sticking to a particular direction in terms of what it wants to accomplish...

Two, so essentially, OP, you want to reinforce the original profession designs: where each class is tied to the weapon. Where each weapon change would also change core traits. Well, in comparison to elite specs, your idea is solid. Elite specializations are basically of what you want to accomplish but...sloppy. Overall, though, I'm going to disagree. I'll say why.

See, like elite specializations, your suggestions still conform to gw2's combat system: where each class heavily depends on the weapon they're using. This is why I've always been skeptical of gw2 and found this to be its biggest flaw. Instead of a class having a set of tools (utility skills), they are defined by their tools (aka the weapon). Also, that same weapon does not work the same way across all classes. As a matter of fact, some classes may use it better! There is also the future dilemma of running out of weapons. Warrior, for example, has access to almost all of them. He's only missing short-bow, staff and focus! What do you do then? It's also absurd, if you think about it: 'I can't use the left half of the skill bar because a weapon "must" be there?'

Honestly, if you really wanted to shake up gw2, you would make it like the predecessor(gw1). First thing to do would be to free up the first half of the skill bar(skills 1-5). Utility skills would go there instead. gw2 really shows its age when it has been reliant on this weapon-reliant combat system and now finds that...it's running out of weapons lmao....

[Volcanis.4872]

On 4/15/2023 at 3:07 PM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

See, like elite specializations, your suggestions still conform to gw2's combat system: where each class heavily depends on the weapon they're using. This is why I've always been skeptical of gw2 and found this to be its biggest flaw. Instead of a class having a set of tools (utility skills), they are defined by their tools (aka the weapon). Also, that same weapon does not work the same way across all classes. As a matter of fact, some classes may use it better! There is also the future dilemma of running out of weapons. Warrior, for example, has access to almost all of them. He's only missing short-bow, staff and focus! What do you do then? It's also absurd, if you think about it: 'I can't use the left half of the skill bar because a weapon "must" be there?'

Honestly, if you really wanted to shake up gw2, you would make it like the predecessor(gw1). First thing to do would be to free up the first half of the skill bar(skills 1-5). Utility skills would go there instead. gw2 really shows its age when it has been reliant on this weapon-reliant combat system and now finds that...it's running out of weapons lmao....

Thanks for your comment. I'll tackle them in no specific order:

1. Warrior only have 5 weapons left (you forgot scepter and main hand pistol): If an expansion cycle is 1.5 years, then after 7.5 years Warrior will finally be "masters of weaponry" that can use any and all weapons - I think that's pretty sweet.

2. Utility skills as skills 1 through 5? I don't think that will ever happen. Weapons and weapon skills are far too important to core combat. Play gw1 if you want that kind of combat.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Volcanis.4872