why is engi able to back throw nades while running away with super speed

[Lighter.5631]

allow all range weapons to back fire without the need to back peddling 

[Frequency.6407]

It's fun!

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Sadly Mesmer's mantra got nerfed cos...i don't know, it's Mesmer and devs felt like it but everyone is chill with engi throwing backwards 🙄

Edited April 6, 2023 by Sleepwalker.1398
Spelling

[Eugchriss.2046]

Because nades are ground targetted attacks and all ground targetted attack can be casted from behind. The game is pretty much consistent in that area. The problem IMO is that the damage system (for some reason)  compute the damage of skill based on the number of the nades even if there is no situation where you can be hit by only 1 of the nades. Therefore that distinction betwen 1 nade or 3 nades or 10 nades is pointless. This 2015 patch basicly buffed the nade kit x3

The whole nade kit is somewhat between vind gs#5 and other "solo" attacks. It has the best of both worlds.

[Kuma.1503]

17 hours ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Because nades are ground targetted attacks and all ground targetted attack can be casted from behind. The game is pretty much consistent in that area. The problem IMO is that the damage system (for some reason)  compute the damage of skill based on the number of the nades even if there is no situation where you can be hit by only 1 of the nades. Therefore that distinction betwen 1 nade or 3 nades or 10 nades is pointless. This 2015 patch basicly buffed the nade kit x3

The whole nade kit is somewhat between vind gs#5 and other "solo" attacks. It has the best of both worlds.

It happens more often than you might think. Especially if it's a lazy engi with snap ground target on. Bethekey has a video where they showcase snap ground targeting and he gets hit with a single nade at the 0:12 second mark. 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Eugchriss.2046]

26 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

It happens more often than you might think. Especially if it's a lazy engi with snap ground target on. Bethekey has a video where they showcase snap ground targeting and he gets hit with a single nade at the 0:12 second mark. 

 

This is an unrealistic scenario dude. Who runs perpendicular to an ennemy? An even if you do, the engi will anticipate your direction and you will get hit by the 3 nades after few seconds.

[Kuma.1503]

11 minutes ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

This is an unrealistic scenario dude. Who runs perpendicular to an ennemy? An even if you do, the engi will anticipate your direction and you will get hit by the 3 nades after few seconds.

Leading the target means snap ground targeting is off.

Even assuming it's off. When you're chucking a lot of nades it's easy to misalign your targeting and have the above happen. 

Meaning anyone midlessly spamming nades is subject to the above. (A common complain here is people doing precicely that btw)

 

As for moving perpedicularly to the engi. It can happen anytime the engineer focuses someone who is not focusing them. Say, a +1 scenario.

1 nade can hit anytime someone is kiting and moving around erratically to juke skillshots like these, which a lot of players will do. It can happen anytime someone (like a willbender) uses a dash skill that the engi doesn't perfectly predict. 

It can happen if you chuck nades at max range and you just happen to get a bad RNG spread. 

 

People They don't just move linearly in relation to the engineer at all times. 

But If they did fights would look hilarious. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

33 minutes ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

This is an unrealistic scenario dude. Who runs perpendicular to an ennemy?

 

@Kuma.1503  He's right and you know it. Run at enemy, no exceptions.

Spoiler

Getting told a video of someone kiting by running at a 90 degree angle to where the damage is coming from in a game largely about movement is "unrealistic" gave me a chilling sense of dread. We won't survive.  

 

Quote

An even if you do, the engi will anticipate your direction and you will get hit by the 3 nades after few seconds.

 

You can't aim with snap targeting. Snap targeting means the game decides where the bombs go, so there will be no leading bombs for that engagement unless the engie is cracked enough to open his menu while fighting you, at which point you lost long before this engagement started. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You can't aim with snap targeting. Snap targeting means the game decides where the bombs go, so there will be no leading bombs for that engagement unless the engie is cracked enough to open his menu while fighting you, at which point you lost long before this engagement started. 

If only there was a keybinding option to toggle it without opening any menu at all... 😉 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

If only there was a keybinding option to toggle it without opening any menu at all, right? 😉 

 

Shh let me cook 

[Sobx.1758]

...not to mention "hold to snap to target" keybind, the possibilities are almost endless!

But yeah, snapping and unsnapping whenever needed during combat isn't a problem in the slightest.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

18 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

snapping and unsnapping whenever needed during combat isn't a problem in the slightest.

Fine fine, granted.

Not running directly at the engie requires them to juggle an additional keybind in addition to the kit if they are snap targeting for people that chase them in a straight line. This doesn't make not chasing them in a straight line any less effective, though. They still have to manually attempt to lead you where you're moving, and your options for changing your direction still exist and can frustrate this. 

Keep in mind the engie has to also move, be ready to stow their nades if they need weapon skills, be ready to respond to or mitigate cc, be ready to dodge and every other general fight scenario option you need to be aware of on other classes. All of this can be upset if you're just not moving in a straight line. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Fine fine, granted. Not running directly at the engie requires them to juggle an additional keybind in addition to the kit if they are snap targeting for people that chase them in a straight line. This doesn't make not chasing them in a straight line any less effective, though. They still have to manually attempt to lead you where you're moving, and your options for changing your direction still exist and can frustrate this.

Technically it does make it less effective, because at least you can lead them with your attacks instead of letting autotargeting miss 😄  But I get your point.

Although now all engie needs to do is keep their distance while spamming autotargetted nades anyways and the opponent running to the sides is less effective if they intend to get on top of them. Similarly to engie opening menu losing long before this engagement started, this can be said about engie standing in place and letting their opponent run circles around them. Maybe that's more of an unrealistic part here than just "running perpendicularly to the enemy" like he wrote. One way or the other, being able to superspeed away while blindly spamming snap-to-target grenades at the enemy is kind of stupid  but it is what it is, I guess 😉 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Stalima.5490]

23 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

allow all range weapons to back fire without the need to back peddling 

why is whatever class you play able to be literally invulnerable?

[roederich.2716]

Because Colin Johanson is a engi main?

All classes which are played by anet responsibles are strong while all classes they not play are neglected.

Ele , Engi, Warrior . stronk.  but classes like mesmer???  jailed to bunker on node or get condi rekt when on power build....

a "support/utility" mesmer in wvw or gvg....

everything they not play themselfes is either not worth their time or they maybe dont know anything about its mechanics cause the classes have been designed by people who left the company long ago.

[Myror.7521]

@roederich.2716 await the only A-NET dude i know playing warr is. That Dude whos warr is named "pls Nerf warrs" or Something Like that. 

Also warr is only strong while you let him CC you. For real i killed a warr Yesterday who was prince of the Arena while I was on Thief ..... while im Not even Close good on that class and it was a total fair 1v1. So saying warr is strong is a Bit out of touch. Spellbraker is somewhat okayish but Rest of that class specs are god kitten useless.

[roederich.2716]

2 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@roederich.2716 await the only A-NET dude i know playing warr is. That Dude whos warr is named "pls Nerf warrs" or Something Like that. 

Also warr is only strong while you let him CC you. For real i killed a warr Yesterday who was prince of the Arena while I was on Thief ..... while im Not even Close good on that class and it was a total fair 1v1. So saying warr is strong is a Bit out of touch. Spellbraker is somewhat okayish but Rest of that class specs are god kitten useless.

i know this. but this is not warrior discussion this is why is engi strong and its for the same reason certain others are as well and others not.

[Kuma.1503]

11 hours ago, roederich.2716 said:

Because Colin Johanson is a engi main?

All classes which are played by anet responsibles are strong while all classes they not play are neglected.

Ele , Engi, Warrior . stronk.  but classes like mesmer???  jailed to bunker on node or get condi rekt when on power build....

a "support/utility" mesmer in wvw or gvg....

everything they not play themselfes is either not worth their time or they maybe dont know anything about its mechanics cause the classes have been designed by people who left the company long ago.

I love how the dev's main always inexplicably swap to whatever is most hated that week. 

Guess all the guardian and rev mains quit. 

[Lighter.5631]

problem is how will any melee without teleport ever catch a back throwing engi running away with super speed?

there's literally 0 balance to it.

and it is the reason why nade is so strong.

 

sure, a lot of ground aoes can be casted while running away. but none of them are spammable like nades.

also nades damage are high, for calculating the possibility of missing a few on moving target, thus making nades incredibly powerful against people rezzing downed targets or on-point fighting. while still being incredibly versatile for being able to back throw and act like melee skills, because you can just throw under yourself, unlike some other projectile ranged attacks, cast will get canceled when enemy walk through you.

 

necro staff can back cast but all have cooldown while AA can only be cast while facing the target.

change nade AA would be a great start. make nade AA only able to cast while facing the target and a target required aoe, not an ground target aoe

[Kuma.1503]

41 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

problem is how will any melee without teleport ever catch a back throwing engi running away with super speed?

If you're playing a melee build with no teleports or dashes. For one... I salute you, but I think you accept that this is a build that counters you and you're not meant to beat it 1v1. Odds are whatever this build is will clap the engi on node, so you don't let them bait you far off node where they have the advantage. 

You wouldn't chase a DE off node as a Reaper. You get blown up by soulbeasts from 1500 range, and they have plenty of mobility to maintain the gap and GS to fight you once you're in close. Quick builds with ranged pressure are unfavorable for slow juggernauts. 

 

41 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

there's literally 0 balance to it.

and it is the reason why nade is so strong.

Scrapper's been mediocre for the majority of its lifespan. There's no way to make it not annoying for some players, but it's very possible to balance. You make sure it has a mixture of good AND bad matchups. It should have weaknesses to offset its strengths, which it arguably does. 

But to address it's cheese aspect... Just give Sneak gyro it's WvW version so Scrapper isn't cheesing people from stealth as easily.  

41 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

 

sure, a lot of ground aoes can be casted while running away. but none of them are spammable like nades.

also nades damage are high, for calculating the possibility of missing a few on moving target, thus making nades incredibly powerful against people rezzing downed targets or on-point fighting. while still being incredibly versatile for being able to back throw and act like melee skills, because you can just throw under yourself, unlike some other projectile ranged attacks, cast will get canceled when enemy walk through you.

We could turn nades into targeted projectiles. Remove the RNG spread so they land consistently as well, but this would simply put Scrapper in a catch 22. 

You run out of CDs in Hammer. Your hammer autos are overnerfed. You're glassy with one stunbreak. Do you move back into melee range, bonk the target with your hammer autos and pray? Or do you just give up and disengage a fight that previously should have been favorable for you?

 

I cannot stress enough, nerfs to nades should not happen until Scrappers underperforming bruiser builds are addressed. This will not encourage players to play a more "healthy" version of the build. It will just encourage them to class swap to something without more weaknesses than it has strengths. 

Changes should also be made to address core builds which are made even more unplayable after these nerfs. Rifle autos are hilariously overnerfed atm, so core grenadier builds will be stuck with two nerfed autos when it's already struggling.

 I get that core engi is already garbage to begin with, so what it one more nerf, but until these improvements are made (because we know from experience Anet will not go back and fix core engi underperformance after the fact) nades should not be touched. 

 

41 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

 

necro staff can back cast but all have cooldown while AA can only be cast while facing the target.

change nade AA would be a great start. make nade AA only able to cast while facing the target and a target required aoe, not an ground target aoe

Sure. After we address the underperforming builds/ core builds that use nades first.  

Edited April 8, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[SleepyBat.9034]

2 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

problem is how will any melee without teleport ever catch a back throwing engi running away with super speed?

Maybe stop running melee classes that don't have mobility?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I love how the dev's main always inexplicably swap to whatever is most hated that week. 

Guess all the guardian and rev mains quit. 

 

*Points to whatever is slightly overtuned today* "Golden child, since the beginning of time!" 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

43 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Maybe stop running melee classes that don't have mobility?

Nah. I personally don't have a problem with nades but I'll swing for Lighter here.

If your solution ever approaches "don't play that class" you are already on the chopping block and you need a better answer. The furthest a spec should go is hard countering certain specializations or builds, not the class itself. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Leonidrex.5649]

22 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Maybe stop running melee classes that don't have mobility?

you can have mobility and it does kitten all, you dash to them, they expand 1 dodge, and by the time you cast another skill they create enough distance that you need to dash again.
its the same kitten D/P thief does to melee characters, every time they press V you need to dash, if you dont have it, dont even bother interacting with them, it is what it is.

[melcor.1094]

The problem is not that nades can be thrown backwards, all groundbased aoe skills are able to since game release.

The first problem is, that they overbuffed an utilitykit to do stupid dmg even on autoattack, while the correct move to make nades viable (if you want aoe spam stuff to be viable in pvp, they obviously don't want it for fb... hello consistency), is to buff the utility nature of each grenade skill, so you use this kit on purpose for the utility (You have a downstate? You switch to grenade kit and throw poison nades to slow down ressing. You want to blind some peeps? You use blind grenades...) instead of nearly perma camping and spamming it with also overtuned trait rewards (vulnerability stacks etc) for mainly the dmg.

The other problem is the stupid amount of swiftness and superspeed in the game, esp on engi.

There are 1-2 more minor problems (including scrapper related stuff) but fixing the first 2 would do enough already.

Edited April 9, 2023 by melcor.1094