Pick-Up-Group-Only Raiding On NA Isn't Dead. I Full Cleared Every Strike and Raid Encounter But 1 In Masterwork Gear On An Off-Meta Build This Week To Prove It.

[vares.8457]

23 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, your post is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when metapushers regard instanced content like some kind of exclusive club. I'm 100% certain that is NOT how Anet intends the content to be experienced by the playerbase. 

Asking someone not to be selfish and think of others does not make it an exclusive club. There are specific builds that are meta for raid content, why not play them? You wouldn’t join a WvW zerg with a PvE build. MMOs are about the social aspect and playing together with others. You seem to forget that or you simply don’t care about others 

[Obtena.7952]

53 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

 There are specific builds that are meta for raid content, why not play them? 

Here are a few reasons: The game doesn't require you to. People are allowed to play how they want. There is a wide range of builds that people can be successful with. Meta-only is not how the game is intended to be played. There are more, but I'm pretty sure the question wasn't really genuine from you in the first place so the point of listing them is not relevant to you. 

Do not pretend that the existence of meta builds means these are the only builds people should play because you don't recognize the criteria people use to choose to play non-meta builds. What is ironic is that you label people as being 'selfish'  because they play how they want, but not necessarily how you want them to. Sure, who's selfish here for expecting everyone to play how YOU want them to ? 👍🙄 Who is selfish for suggesting people exclude themselves from content because they don't play how you think they should? 🙄

People don't need to conform to how you want them to play just because you don't like how they play. Again, the answer here is if you don't want to play with 'selfish' people, just build your teams so you don't play with them. Intimidation and misinformation are inappropriate methods to address people not playing how you think they should. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Here are a few reasons: The game doesn't require you to. People are allowed to play how they want. There is a wide range of builds that people can be successful with. Meta-only is not how the game is intended to be played. There are more, but I'm pretty sure the question wasn't really genuine from you in the first place so the point of listing them is not relevant to you. 

Do not pretend that the existence of meta builds means these are the only builds people should play because you don't recognize the criteria people use to choose to play non-meta builds. What is ironic is that you label people as being 'selfish'  because they play how they want, but not necessarily how you want them to. Sure, who's selfish here for expecting everyone to play how YOU want them to ? 👍🙄 Who is selfish for suggesting people exclude themselves from content because they don't play how you think they should? 🙄

People don't need to conform to how you want them to play just because you don't like how they play. Again, the answer here is if you don't want to play with 'selfish' people, just build your teams so you don't play with them. Intimidation and misinformation are inappropriate methods to address people not playing how you think they should. 

It’s not about what I want it’s about what’s best for the group.
You may seem to think that being selfish is great and caring for others is bad. But for me instanced group content is about playing together with others and being a team player. You shouldn’t forget that there are nine other people in your squad. 

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

It’s not about what I want it’s about what’s best for the group.

What's best for the group is up to the group to decide, not up to you to impose your own ideas of what that is for them. Somehow you convinced yourself all teams care about a player's performance. That's not true. Some teams just care their members know the encounter because that's really the only requirement for it to be completed successfully. Optimal play just isn't part of their team building criteria ... because it doesn't need to be. 

So again, you aren't in a position to impose your own values on everyone (thanks but no thanks) when not everyone want to play according to your values. Not every team is built around the criteria for optimal play from everyone in it and the game doesn't require that criteria be met so teams can be successful in encounters either. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... and that depends what group you're in, not what people SHOULD be playing. You see, somehow you convinced yourself that everyone in every group cares about a player's performance. That's not true. Some people just care that you know the encounter so the team can complete it successfully. 

So again, you've imposed your own values for what makes 'correct' play when it's not relevant to every team. Not every team is built around the premise that they want optimal play from everyone in it. 

I am sure most groups don’t want to have a healer with berserker gear in their squad or an alac who can’t give alac.  But whatever, if you prefer being selfish over being a team player that’s your problem. 
If your static isn’t interested in being efficient that’s fine but most pugs are. This thread is about pick up group raiding. 

[Obtena.7952]

22 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

I am sure most groups don’t want to have a healer with berserker gear in their squad or an alac who can’t give alac.  But whatever, if you prefer being selfish over being a team player that’s your problem. 
If your static isn’t interested in being efficient that’s fine but most pugs are. This thread is about pick up group raiding. 

That's a dishonest take on the discussion here. I am talking about the idea that people should ONLY play meta builds. Clearly, that does NOT indicate that I advocate people bring clown builds to teams that don't fulfill their intended function. Seems to me that you aren't recognizing there are builds capable of fulfilling a role in a team, even if it's not meta. 

I know this thread is about PUGs ... that doesn't change what I said. PUG's can use whatever criteria they want to make teams. There is not reason to assume that EVERY PUG insists that people use meta builds, just because that's a situation you think should happen. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a dishonest take on the discussion here. I am talking about the idea that people should ONLY play meta builds, not that's it's OK if people bring builds that don't fulfill their intended function. 

I know this thread is about PUGs ... that doesn't change what I said. PUg's can use whatever criteria they want to make teams. There is not reason to assume that EVERY PUG insists that people use meta builds, just because that's a situation you think should happen. 

I wrote most pugs, not every pug. Please read carefully. 

[Krzysztof.5973]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a dishonest take on the discussion here. I am talking about the idea that people should ONLY play meta builds, not that's it's OK if people bring builds that don't fulfill their intended function. 

I know this thread is about PUGs ... that doesn't change what I said. PUg's can use whatever criteria they want to make teams. There is not reason to assume that EVERY PUG insists that people use meta builds, just because that's a situation you think should happen. 

And you telling me that I want to brainwash people into playing meta builds is not dishonest? 

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

I wrote most pugs, not every pug. 

Great, so if you are just talking about some subset of PUG groups, then it's absolutely NOT true that everyone should play only meta builds. Good clarification ... because it means I'm correct. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

And you telling me that I want to brainwash people into playing meta builds is not dishonest? 

From where I sit, it's VERY honest to believe anyone telling people to only use meta builds is brainwashing, because it's certainly not required by the game mechanics that everyone only use meta builds for all instanced content. 

[Krzysztof.5973]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

From where I sit, it's VERY honest to believe anyone telling people to only use meta builds is brainwashing, because it's certainly not required by the game mechanics that everyone only use meta builds for all instanced content. 

So you're just being dishonest. At least we understand each other 😉

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

So you're just being dishonest. At least we understand each other 😉

That doesn't make sense ... I'm not the one telling everyone to only use meta builds. I'm not the one claiming someone who makes a thread about how they can be successful playing non-meta builds is 'destroying the raid community'. 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense ... I'm not the one telling everyone to only use meta builds. 

Just do us all a favor and stay away from pug raiding, thank you 

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Just do us all a favor and stay away from pug raiding

Just to clear up the misinformation here, the PUG scene is open to anyone. It's up to the people making PUG teams to build them appropriately with the players that meet the criteria the teambuilders want them to have. 

Again, the PUG is not an exclusive club for meta-only players. The thread is relevant to that as a demonstration of how non-meta players can play in a PUG group and be successful doing so. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Krzysztof.5973]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Just to be clear, the PUG scene is open to anyone. it's up the people making those teams to build them appropriately to the criteria they want. 

Again, the PUG it's not an exclusive club for meta-only players. 

Opened to anyone but the people who encourage others to use meta builds apparently 🤣

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Opened to anyone but the people who encourage others to use meta builds apparently 🤣

Nothing I have said indicates people that want meta builds in their teams can't use PUGs to build those meta-only teams. I didn't mis-speak when I said the PUG method is open to anyone. It's true, even for meta-only players. 

The objection I have here isn't people making teams in PUGs with meta-only players. My objection here is the idea that people should ONLY be using meta builds in instanced content teams. That's obviously nonsense ... for lots of reasons people try to ignore. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Krzysztof.5973]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing I have said indicates people that want meta builds in their teams can't use PUGs to build those meta-only teams. I didn't mis-speak when I said the PUG method is open to anyone. It's true, even meta-only players. 

The objection I have here isn't people making teams in PUGs with meta-only players. My objection here is the idea that people should ONLY be using meta builds in instanced content teams. That's obviously nonsense ... for lots of reasons people try to ignore. 

It is nonsense because nobody here said that. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Krzysztof.5973

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

It is nonsense because nobody here said that. 

Great, if that's nonsense, then no one should be arguing with me that it's NOT a foregone conclusion that everyone ONLY use meta builds in all instanced group teams to begin with. 

See, we wouldn't be having this discussion if nobody here said that and we all agreed that meta builds aren't the ONLY builds everyone should be using. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Here are a few reasons: The game doesn't require you to. People are allowed to play how they want. There is a wide range of builds that people can be successful with. Meta-only is not how the game is intended to be played. There are more, but I'm pretty sure the question wasn't really genuine from you in the first place so the point of listing them is not relevant to you. 

The person with "Commander" in front of their names will decide if you can bring what you want to bring and if it's not up to their expectation you either change or leave. People are allowed to play how they want, but squad Commanders are allowed to kick whoever they want. 

You can go on about playing how you want, it is true in open world. Noone cares if you play Druid with staff in Soldier's in VB, but 9 people will probably question you trying to bring that as DPS to a Raid. However, you pick DPS and you run Marauder or Valkyrie, or whatever and do good enough noone will care, I've raided for like 2 months running Marauder-Valkyrie on my DH like 2 years ago, because I had no other Ascended power gear, noone cared, while I've been kicked for playing Heal Scrapper pre-EoD, despite being on par with my HFB.

I'll be honest, seeing the DPS numbers made me think that I might have Raided together with people doing the same thing. 
I've seen people running Exotic and Ascended do worse. 

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Great, if that's nonsense, then no one should be arguing with me that it's NOT a foregone conclusion that everyone ONLY use meta builds in all instanced group teams to begin with. 

See, we wouldn't be having this discussion if nobody here said that and we all agreed that meta builds aren't the ONLY builds everyone should be using. 

Sure we would, because you decided to make statements around your misrepresentation of what was said which others disagree with (besides misrepresenting other peoples statements and position to begin with).

In short: no one disagrees that anything can be run for instanced content. Not everything will be equally welcome though for a majority of groups.

Having the possibility to do something in order to reach a goal is not synonimous with being able to achieve the set goal.

It's like running a marathon. Most people will advise you to pace yourself, have a proper running posture, etc (I ran one myself 5 years ago, I got a lot of good advice from a friend who has run 3 by now). No one will deny you that you should be allowed to crawl the marathon, but it will limit or reduce your chance of success significantly. Which might cause issues if others are dependant on your performance.

You are the one arguing that crawling that marathon should not be disallowed. Good news, no one cares if you crawl, and it is not disallowed. Most simply won't want you on their team, and that is fine too.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The person with "Commander" in front of their names will decide if you can bring what you want to bring and if it's not up to their expectation you either change or leave. People are allowed to play how they want, but squad Commanders are allowed to kick whoever they want. 

Sure, and that isn't what my objection is about. I completely agree that people can make the teams how they want which is how dealing with non-meta players SHOULD be handled if people don't want them.

The objection I have is to some people's comments that people should play meta builds in team instanced content, which is completely absurd because that's not how the game has ever been designed. The game has never limited people to playing meta builds to be successful in content, so the restriction that people play meta builds is completely artificial. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

It's not often I agree with Obtena, but he does have some good points here.  Biggest obstacle I encountered while trying to be a meta sheep in raids is all of those pesky mechanics.  I keep thinking back to when I saw MightyTeapot go over how to defeat Matthias, where he recommended almost every squad member change around their traits and utilities to handle his mechanically heavy fight.  Up until I stopped raiding, every time I taught Matthias I followed Teapot's example for an explanation.

Matthias is an extreme example of the kinds of things that happen in every fight.  A second example is how often the ally slublings die fighting Slothasaur from people mindlessly following rotations.  A third is people flinging themselves off a cliff against Xera with forced movement skills.  I had to learn the hard way that Tempest's magnetic aura spam is a death trap against Cairn.  Etc. and so on.  This also changes from profession to profession, with some (such as Thief) having to change their builds constantly due to all of the weird fight mechanics not interacting with a profession's idiosyncrasies.  

A player can only be a meta sheep in a squad full of competent, seasoned teammates who will handle all of the mechanics and turn the boss into a punching bag.  Having done many pug runs, pug fills, and training runs, I've found this to rarely be the case.  Because of this, I constantly change traits and utilities between fights, always operating under the assumption that half the squad doesn't know what CC is and I'll have to become the replacement reflector/immobilizer/flak kiter/etc.  I'd rather have the insurance that I can take the reigns and save us from sudden failure than have slightly higher DPS with no personal safety net.

[Vilin.8056]

38 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It's not often I agree with Obtena, but he does have some good points here.  Biggest obstacle I encountered while trying to be a meta sheep in raids is all of those pesky mechanics.  I keep thinking back to when I saw MightyTeapot go over how to defeat Matthias, where he recommended almost every squad member change around their traits and utilities to handle his mechanically heavy fight.  Up until I stopped raiding, every time I taught Matthias I followed Teapot's example for an explanation.

Matthias is an extreme example of the kinds of things that happen in every fight.  A second example is how often the ally slublings die fighting Slothasaur from people mindlessly following rotations.  A third is people flinging themselves off a cliff against Xera with forced movement skills.  I had to learn the hard way that Tempest's magnetic aura spam is a death trap against Cairn.  Etc. and so on.  This also changes from profession to profession, with some (such as Thief) having to change their builds constantly due to all of the weird fight mechanics not interacting with a profession's idiosyncrasies.  

A player can only be a meta sheep in a squad full of competent, seasoned teammates who will handle all of the mechanics and turn the boss into a punching bag.  Having done many pug runs, pug fills, and training runs, I've found this to rarely be the case.  Because of this, I constantly change traits and utilities between fights, always operating under the assumption that half the squad doesn't know what CC is and I'll have to become the replacement reflector/immobilizer/flak kiter/etc.  I'd rather have the insurance that I can take the reigns and save us from sudden failure than have slightly higher DPS with no personal safety net.

You're confused between build and player skill, these are two seperate elements in this game.

Likewise, if those players couldn't get their mechanics right, letting them playing their own build would not solve their mechanic or CC issue, instead, it'll only make things worse.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Vilin.8056

[mandala.8507]

15 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

I don’t raid in pug groups because I don’t want that selfish players with off meta builds that perform badly waste my time. 

This seems to be a common theme of the thread. Lots of people commenting in here do most of their raiding in statics...which is surprising for a thread about pick-up group raiding. And a lot of EU voices even though my post is about NA. A bit strange, but oh well.

To separately respond to the discussion about meta vs non-meta:

I think an important thing to note is that non-meta does not equal poorly constructed or mismatched builds. Lots of the pushback from those advocating "meta for all" in this thread is comparing meta builds to clownish builds like soldier's druid dps and boonless boon supports, but when people talk about wanting more acceptance of non-meta builds, that is not at all the kind of build they are advocating for.

The discussion is really about builds that fall within the range of acceptable play but outside the competitive range for their role, which gets them labeled as non-meta. And sometimes, the raid culture can overemphasize the importance of optimization and the comparable strengths of builds in a game where execution is exponentially more important than the potential top performance of the build you bring into encounters.

On top of this, there's the smaller grievance that sometime the recommended builds don't function so well in the hands of less-skilled players, and so why isn't there more focus on recommending builds that everyone could play well vs builds that only a handful of people could realistically pull off if we're telling people to play the meta builds with pretty much no exceptions.

For instance, I think build sites do the raiding scene a disservice by recommending boon dps builds with competitively optimized boon duration. Most players aren't aware when they copy these builds that they have almost no chance of maintaining 100% boon uptime at their current skill level, and if everyone in the group is running a build optimized considering their ability to do so, the whole metagame falls apart.

But back to the main point...

There is a whole host of interesting, fun, and still quite strong builds that never see the light of day or invoke arbitrary animosity toward those who play them simply because the average raider isn't as knowledgeable about the game as they'd need to be to know these builds aren't bad even though they aren't recommended as meta builds.

And you see that here in this thread. To many players, all non-meta builds are created equal. A grieving willbender dps build is just as bad as a soldier's dps druid simply because they've been told everyone should be playing the meta and that people not playing the meta are selfish and dragging their group down.

People with significant knowledge about the game understand that there's really nothing wrong with a grieving willbender build, while a soldier's dps druid really isn't good for anything. But when we feed inexperienced players the rhetoric that all non-meta is bad and brings the group down, and that players trying to bring non-meta builds into our runs are being selfish, we are failing to teach them how the game actually works in favor of their expedited assimilation into the scene's status quo; and as a consequence, propagating misguided toxicity that hurts the health of the raid scene.

...But that's not the discussion this thread was intended to touch upon. My focus was to showcase that you can raid solely using the NA lfg, that you don't have to be the best raider in the world to find groups on it, and to hopefully encourage people who are afraid of the very dynamic rearing its ugly head here to just take the plunge and try their best with pug raiding anyway — because there are plenty of welcoming veterans on NA who'd be glad to see new players trying their best regardless of how valuable of a player they are.

[vares.8457]

5 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

 

16 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

I don’t raid in pug groups because I don’t want that selfish players with off meta builds that perform badly waste my time. 

This seems to be a common theme of the thread. Lots of people commenting in here do most of their raiding in statics...which is surprising for a thread about pick-up group raiding. And a lot of EU voices even though my post is about NA. A bit strange, but oh well.

 

Then don’t post in a public forum if you don’t like to hear different opinions and don’t want non Americans to comment.