With the probable end of elite specs, is anyone else even more upset that Catalyst exists?

[Helgaley.3619]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:31 PM, TheGrimoire.4039 said:

Catalyst is the most disappointing thing I've had the misfortune of experiencing ever since I started playing a few months after launch.

 

It is so uninspired, dull, and lackluster, that to say it left a sour taste in my mouth it's an understatement.

And now, with no more elite specs to, AFTER 10 YEARS, give us a ranged elite specialization... it makes me not want to pick up the game anymore.

 

At this point, I'm just waiting on the sidelines to see what they do with the "combat features" in the new paid living wo... expansion, otherwise I am so done with it.

 

Catalyst ruined my overall enjoyment of the class, but I think it has more to do with the design decisions ANet has made for Elementalist and this particular elite specialization.

 

I still love Staff to death and have been using it non-stop pretty much, but after so many years, it gets really stale.

 

I'll also leave this video here from when they announced Catalyst: 

 

Glad I'm not the only one that felt burnt out with the game after catalyst came out. Everything from how it's designed, how they introduced it, and how god awful it plays just felt like Anet was making fun of ele mains. Plus I remember them playing catalyst during some of the other EoD preview videos and talking about how fun it was while they were literally in downstate. 

The whole thing was just extremely tone deaf and reminded me of the whole "do you guys even have phones" fiasco with Blizzard. We already had 2 melee focused elite specializations, the community was practically begging for a new ranged option, and they gave us a hammer, a static orb, and a stacking stat increase. To top it all off, there is literally -nothing- the catalyst can do that other professions can't do better for less effort. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I'm hoping that going forward they'll give existing specialisations more weapons, like longbow. I think they definitely dropped the ball though and Elementalist as a whole is in a worse state than it was pre-Catalyst. Even all the Tempest "buffs" have mostly just made it harder to play.

Edited May 18, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Serephen.3420]

3 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I'm hoping that going forward they'll give existing specialisations more weapons, like longbow. I think they definitely dropped the ball though and Elementalist as a whole is in a worse state than it was pre-Catalyst. Even all the Tempest "buffs" have mostly just made it harder to play.

Still hoping for a longbow too. Honestly new weapons would be able to bring enough to entice players into getting the expansion. Adds a new way to play and easier to balance than an entirely new spec.

[Nymeria.1653]

On 5/4/2023 at 5:25 PM, Jzaku.9765 said:

My biggest issue with Catalyst is that the flavour is close to nonexistent. It is difficult to describe Catalyst without explicitly referring to it's mechanics. It's extremely obvious to me that it was designed mechanics-first for PvP as a callback to the gameplay style of celestial D/D Ele from WAY back in the core game.

They even ruined the summoner theme it vaguely has by making it tech-based. Then murdered that theme even more by making the mechanic effectively spammable with short duration. 

I agree, I would have prefered a more summoner kinda class.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Nymeria.1653 said:

I agree, I would have prefered a more summoner kinda class.

An observation I've made is that there are no obvious catalyst NPCs apart from the obligatory lore NPC (some of the Wardens have similar animations, but nothing that really pins them down as being catalysts). Instead, ritualists seem to be filling the roles that would normally be filled by enemy elementalists in EoD.

[Kodama.6453]

On 5/18/2023 at 6:29 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

An observation I've made is that there are no obvious catalyst NPCs apart from the obligatory lore NPC (some of the Wardens have similar animations, but nothing that really pins them down as being catalysts). Instead, ritualists seem to be filling the roles that would normally be filled by enemy elementalists in EoD.

Ok... but what is the point of that observation?

There are also no untameds in EoD except the lore NPC. Can't recall that I saw any NPC enemy specters, either. Technically also no real mechanists, in the sense that there are no NPCs with the permanent jade bot buddy.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Ok... but what is the point of that observation?

There are also no untameds in EoD except the lore NPC. Can't recall that I saw any NPC enemy specters, either. Technically also no real mechanists, in the sense that there are no NPCs with the permanent jade bot buddy.

There's at least one enemy spectre in the guild hall mission. I think one of the five Purist Champions that can spawn in Old Kaineng might be as well. Both of those are done so infrequently that they're easily forgotten, though.

The mechanist thing is fairly typical - ArenaNet usually trats NPCs which have pets as being two separate entities, with some exceptions in GW1 (but even then, there were clear cases where lorewise it was ranger and pet, but they didn't have the direct interaction that happened with PC rangers). There are pretty obviously some characters that are themed as mechanists, though, including a Jade Brotherhood enemy type that summons mechs at higher veterancy levels (I normally come across it at the hero point over the junkyard - not sure if it's the Junker or, paradoxically, the Scrapper off the top of my head, but it's one of the Jade Brotherhood engineer types).

The general point is that, combined with how chopped-together catalyst feels, I do wonder if at some point ArenaNet was considering making ritualist as an elementalist elite and then decided not to, leaving them to create catalyst at the last moment. The evidence is obviously circumstantial, but they'd obviously gone to a fair amount of work creating ritualist stuff (a lot more than they did for paragon and dervish stuff in PoF...), while the lack of Canthan catalysts apart from the lore NPC, despite catalyst supposedly being an old Canthan tradition, could be explained if catalyst just hadn't been made in time for the encounter designers to make any catalyst-themed bosses. Instead, as I said, with the exception of nonhuman enemies like Saltsprays and Wardens, ritualists seem to have completely replaced elementalists in EoD.

And if that is the case, then it suggests that at some point there might well have been a summoner-focused elite specialisation that was planned but was dropped for some reason.

[zeyeti.8347]

Personnaly i stopped playing entirely ele , i didnt get any fun when staff was nerefd in dps till now , it's a mage and we are here with a lot of melee .

If you want big numbers (what i usually want when i play hard class like ele) i have to commit to this class entirely , no fun , hard to keep alive when fully geared dps , hard to master.

Catalyst in pair with chrono and fervent force untamed are by far for me the hardest class to master and have a big gap in term of efficiency between average player and master player , all other class i can do with it , maybe not full potential , but not far from that , if i play cata i feel like a nugget trying to hit a dinosaur , class isn't fro me , yes really upset with catalyst and the whole ele class entirely.

There is too many things to manage with cata , your energy ... i could understand why energy was there when sphere was on a 5 secs cd , but now on a 15 really not , has this class not enough mechanics to deal with ? hammer skill 3 / EE stacks / augments timing . And the way this class give quickness ... all other quickness booner have many sources of quickness , fb has like 2 traits and 2 skills to give it , herald has 5 skills , scrapper has 5 or 4 skills (grenades or no grenades) and cata ... 1 skill , who also need you to play arcane for more concentration and -15% attunement/sphere cd.

Weaver , same too hard , for a meh result in dps.

And tempest , oh god i really want an updated tempest alacheal , but it is out of competition with other healers by far.

This class is just not for me. 

[crosknight.3041]

3 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

And tempest , oh god i really want an updated tempest alacheal , but it is out of competition with other healers by far.

 

this, they could have put alac on anything else but instead they chose to attach it to the most interruptible skills in the game. the alac trait also competes with the aura heal trait, which was the heal tempests bread and butter to reliably heal outside of water attunement. heal alac tempest is actively discouraged from using water overload otherwise they are locked out of the bulk of their healing.
if anything, they should have made alac apply on auras, as anet has shown with catalyst they aren't afraid of putting extremely powerful boons on auras (stability in catalysts case) which itself is annoying since aura spam was a big part of heal tempests identity for years prior to them getting alacrity. granted i think heal aura should be moved to the water trait line and powerful aura should be moved to arcane, but reworking the traitlines is a topic for another thread most likely

[zeyeti.8347]

25 minutes ago, crosknight.3041 said:

this, they could have put alac on anything else but instead they chose to attach it to the most interruptible skills in the game. the alac trait also competes with the aura heal trait, which was the heal tempests bread and butter to reliably heal outside of water attunement. heal alac tempest is actively discouraged from using water overload otherwise they are locked out of the bulk of their healing.
if anything, they should have made alac apply on auras, as anet has shown with catalyst they aren't afraid of putting extremely powerful boons on auras (stability in catalysts case) which itself is annoying since aura spam was a big part of heal tempests identity for years prior to them getting alacrity. granted i think heal aura should be moved to the water trait line and powerful aura should be moved to arcane, but reworking the traitlines is a topic for another thread most likely

Man thats literally THE problem with it , powerfull aura with bastion was such an amazing combination for healing without water attunement , and that crappy alacrity on a 3 sec cast time , hell no i want my alac on a 1/4 sec cast time or instant like all other alacrity booner have .

[Jski.6180]

I think it comes down to this simple truth a class that favored ranged will always use its ranged weapon over its melee weapons even if its elite spec is made for an melee weapon. Scepter the only ranged dps weapon ele has will always out preformed melee dps weapons that where added in for the elite spec of weaver and catalyst (in game types that open you up to the disadvantages of ranged vs melee.)

Support a bit different as its better to be on an group then away from group to support them.

So catalyst as an melee dps fails to work right with its hammer BUT as an melee support/hybrid its just fine with its hammer to a point.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I find catalyst incredibly lazy.
Take Core elem, add a "free" combo field = catalyst

Traits by themself are not that bad, but the whole traitlane doesn't feel like you can run a mechanic over an other and specialize yourself into something particular. 
Jade sphere is still the same no matter what, but with more boons potenttialy. Hammer is the same, same rotation everywhere, every game mode. Augments are just bad mix of glyphs and stances; 90sec CD on Elemental Celerity ??? EE, Lazy, and 3 traits on it, but you can't still maintain 10 stacks ? Traits on Auras, lazy. 
 

I don't know.
Why didn't they put traits on hammer ? (Combo finisher doubles the effect) Augments ? (share effects with allies, delete the same element requirement...)
Why can't I specialize my Jade sphere into self DPS/Buff, group buff, DPS or conditions to foes, ground targeting, on player...  I just have the choice beetween "The normal combo field" and "The boosted one".

Edited May 20, 2023 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I think it comes down to this simple truth a class that favored ranged will always use its ranged weapon over its melee weapons even if its elite spec is made for an melee weapon. Scepter the only ranged dps weapon ele has will always out preformed melee dps weapons that where added in for the elite spec of weaver and catalyst (in game types that open you up to the disadvantages of ranged vs melee.)

Support a bit different as its better to be on an group then away from group to support them.

So catalyst as an melee dps fails to work right with its hammer BUT as an melee support/hybrid its just fine with its hammer to a point.

Huh? Scepter was mostly pretty bad except for fresh air spiking until the recent rework. It's pumping now, but for most of Weaver's existence, sword or dagger were the preferred weapons.

[Jski.6180]

24 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Huh? Scepter was mostly pretty bad except for fresh air spiking until the recent rework. It's pumping now, but for most of Weaver's existence, sword or dagger were the preferred weapons.

But its not ranged and any place where melee is punished in any way melee builds for ele are worthless. At best your looking at an tankly something or other that dose some dmg and simply out last whom they are fighting or an all in tankly support (dps support) because support is mostly melee only in gw2.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

But its not ranged and any place where melee is punished in any way melee builds for ele are worthless. At best your looking at an tankly something or other that dose some dmg and simply out last whom they are fighting or an all in tankly support (dps support) because support is mostly melee only in gw2.

I've done a lot of arguing against the 'range doesn't matter because boonball' crowd, but in practice, there are a lot of encounters, especially earlier ones, where it really doesn't. PvE DPS builds mostly used sword or dagger until the scepter rework. Weaver in sPvP typically used sword. Saying that ele will ALWAYS use a ranged weapon is a bit of a stretch.

But they should be able to build for range without it feeling like you're playing suboptimally.

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I've done a lot of arguing against the 'range doesn't matter because boonball' crowd, but in practice, there are a lot of encounters, especially earlier ones, where it really doesn't. PvE DPS builds mostly used sword or dagger until the scepter rework. Weaver in sPvP typically used sword. Saying that ele will ALWAYS use a ranged weapon is a bit of a stretch.

But they should be able to build for range without it feeling like you're playing suboptimally.

In wvw melee dps ele dose not work. Spvp it kind of works due to caps on dmg + effects but your still more pushed to being tankly. Pve any time your not getting hit armor and hp means nothing so any thing goes as long as your not getting hit.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

In wvw melee dps ele dose not work. Spvp it kind of works due to caps on dmg + effects but your still more pushed to being tankly. Pve any time your not getting hit armor and hp means nothing so any thing goes as long as your not getting hit.

Pretty much everyone is pushed to bringing a bit of sustain in sPvP, so ele is nothing special there. Ele builds can often be quite survivable if you know what you're doing.

PvE kinda has two scenarios - instanced and solo. In instanced content, you're often relying on tells and your healers, to be sure. Solo... ele is one of the professions best placed to run cele because it uses all of the stats, and like sPvP, you're generally better off not bringing pure glass anyway.

WvW tends to push everyone into ranged AoE. Outside of that, there have absolutely been successful meleementalist builds, so your assertion that they "always" go melee is false and only weakens your overall credibility. The truth is that they work (although sceptre damage often outdamages them since the rework). However, just because melee builds work does not mean that elementalist should not get an elite spec that specialises in ranged combat instead.

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Pretty much everyone is pushed to bringing a bit of sustain in sPvP, so ele is nothing special there. Ele builds can often be quite survivable if you know what you're doing.

PvE kinda has two scenarios - instanced and solo. In instanced content, you're often relying on tells and your healers, to be sure. Solo... ele is one of the professions best placed to run cele because it uses all of the stats, and like sPvP, you're generally better off not bringing pure glass anyway.

WvW tends to push everyone into ranged AoE. Outside of that, there have absolutely been successful meleementalist builds, so your assertion that they "always" go melee is false and only weakens your overall credibility. The truth is that they work (although sceptre damage often outdamages them since the rework). However, just because melee builds work does not mean that elementalist should not get an elite spec that specialises in ranged combat instead.

Have you played an all in dmg melee ele in wvw? A lot of ppl say it works but never play the class or the build. It dose not work in an large scale fight in wvw.

I realty want to know the build i been messing with an d/d aura share catalyst build but it gets one shot a lot of the time. Aura stab spam seems to be the only way for d/d ele to get into an group and land its dmg.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Jski.6180

[MarzAttakz.9608]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Have you played an all in dmg melee ele in wvw? A lot of ppl say it works but never play the class or the build. It dose not work in an large scale fight in wvw.

I realty want to know the build i been messing with an d/d aura share catalyst build but it gets one shot a lot of the time. Aura stab spam seems to be the only way for d/d ele to get into an group and land its dmg.

Outside of Minstrel's support you're just a hindrance going melee and a rally at best. It's not like 2012-2015 where you could go Soldier's and make an impact with shocking aura spamming anymore. Aura share is still the best you can do.

Celestial survival in a large squad isn't all it's made out to be and without 25 might you're practically just tickling people. Good luck with your spheres in a mobile fight.

Now days I play full Minstrel's staff support as a front line spec and it's tough enough to survive most things. I go Arcane/Water/Tempest and forgo some cleanses for a better spread of boon distribution because I don't camp water unless I absolutely have to and tend to play very aggressively being the driver next to the commander providing CC along with heals. If retreating I fall back to a rear guard position and utilise the same CC plus superspeed, stun break, stab and reflect to keep our slower members as safe as I can.

If not support then it's Mara/Dragons Weaver AOE nuke that dies to a breeze meme. I'll switch to a bastardised Cele variation in a squad under 15 and run a more damage oriented aura share build (sometimes Cata, sometimes Fire or Earth/water Tempest) and be hybrid heal + damage but the results are middling at best.

Dagger/Dagger's days are gone and I do miss them and don't think we're ever going to be going back there sadly...

[Khalisto.5780]

I'm not mad that cata exists, but class dies feel generic and gives you the feeling it is what core should have been. I'm also mad over those hammer 3 skills, those skills are so good that kinda forces you to play hammer.

Class in general is like any other pof or eod that is just a boon spam powercreep with a lot of % buffs that makes you lose nothing compared to core, it's just ++.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 5/22/2023 at 2:18 AM, Jski.6180 said:

Have you played an all in dmg melee ele in wvw? A lot of ppl say it works but never play the class or the build. It dose not work in an large scale fight in wvw.

I realty want to know the build i been messing with an d/d aura share catalyst build but it gets one shot a lot of the time. Aura stab spam seems to be the only way for d/d ele to get into an group and land its dmg.

My one sentence referencing WvW acknowledged that you probably didn't want to melee there, but that this is a common issue among several professions.

Your post that claimed that ele ALWAYS went ranged didn't specify WvW, though. Meleementalist either is or has been quite viable in the other modes. Therefore, they don't ALWAYS go ranged.

This isn't a justification for going 3 for 3 on melee-oriented elite specialisations, though.

1 hour ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

I'm not mad that cata exists, but class dies feel generic and gives you the feeling it is what core should have been. I'm also mad over those hammer 3 skills, those skills are so good that kinda forces you to play hammer.

Class in general is like any other pof or eod that is just a boon spam powercreep with a lot of % buffs that makes you lose nothing compared to core, it's just ++.

Yeah, I don't think anyone's advocating for catalyst to be just deleted with nothing to replace it. Just that if we're only going to have three elite specialisations, the third should have been something more distinct from the other two.

[Serephen.3420]

5 hours ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

I'm not mad that cata exists, but class dies feel generic and gives you the feeling it is what core should have been. I'm also mad over those hammer 3 skills, those skills are so good that kinda forces you to play hammer.

Class in general is like any other pof or eod that is just a boon spam powercreep with a lot of % buffs that makes you lose nothing compared to core, it's just ++.

Funny, I'm mad at the 3 skills because of how awful and unfun they are especially in pve to be hitting 1s and 2s just for trait esque buffs instead of getting real skills.

I think with cata being somewhat core ele + it exposes a lot of what's outdated with ele while tryito cover it with some stat bonuses.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

2 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Funny, I'm mad at the 3 skills because of how awful and unfun they are especially in pve to be hitting 1s and 2s just for trait esque buffs instead of getting real skills.

I think with cata being somewhat core ele + it exposes a lot of what's outdated with ele while tryito cover it with some stat bonuses.

I don't like this "mechanic" as well; but the point you're forced to play the #3 skills, and stack the 4 effects ... because it's just too strong : the buffs + the energy generation + the final combo finisher.
It's a bit sad because it jails the catalyst into only one weapon to be effective,  only one rotation and few place for "in the moment" element or skill.

IMO they should delete the buffs and rework how the Grand Finale works : the less you have circular projectiles, the more unique condition you apply or fewer is the CD, unique effect for each elements ; so you'd have a "celestial" Grand finale with all elements, but you could also spam something more oriented into burning, high spike damage, heal ...

[Serephen.3420]

23 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I don't like this "mechanic" as well; but the point you're forced to play the #3 skills, and stack the 4 effects ... because it's just too strong : the buffs + the energy generation + the final combo finisher.
It's a bit sad because it jails the catalyst into only one weapon to be effective,  only one rotation and few place for "in the moment" element or skill.

IMO they should delete the buffs and rework how the Grand Finale works : the less you have circular projectiles, the more unique condition you apply or fewer is the CD, unique effect for each elements ; so you'd have a "celestial" Grand finale with all elements, but you could also spam something more oriented into burning, high spike damage, heal ...

Part of the jailing into one weapon is also largely due to how the energy mechanic works. Hammer needs to be able to stand on its own and not be the energy bot for the spec.energy gain if player generated at all should be done in a way independent of the weapon used.  

I'd even suggest reworking the elite skill which I still find unimaginative to instead incorporate the hammer 3 skills and result in grand finale. Yes basically weave self but at least matches thematically and has some mechanical differences, while removing a at times broken or otherwise useless elite for something worth taking over FGS for a change. 

[Khalisto.5780]

7 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Funny, I'm mad at the 3 skills because of how awful and unfun they are especially in pve to be hitting 1s and 2s just for trait esque buffs instead of getting real skills.

I think with cata being somewhat core ele + it exposes a lot of what's outdated with ele while tryito cover it with some stat bonuses.

if you think in solo gameplay yes, but in raids/fracs/rstrikes you sit inside boss hitbox fully proffiting from it