Ranger sword - issues, hopes and dreams

[Jonas.2079]

With the excellent news that Anet are taking a look at ranger’s sword in the upcoming patch, I’d like to bring up some concerns and wishes I have for the weapon, as someone who’s actually been playing around quite a bit with sword mainhand Untamed recently - even in the sorry state sword is in right now.

Anet said in the latest Studio update that they are “looking at further defining ranger sword as a mobile, power damage weapon ». While that is great, I really hope that this is not just a numbers change, and that they don’t forget the condition side of this weapon.

Warning! Wall of text incoming.

Pure Power vs Hybrid

Ranger’s offhand options are quite limited – we have access to the axe for power damage, warhorn for support/boons, torch for burning, and dagger for bleed and poison (with a greater emphasis on the latter). Notice that there is only really one offhand weapon for power damage (although the warhorn could also be used on non-condi builds). Now, ranger’s other mainhand weapons are axe and dagger. The axe MH is currently great for both power damage and bleeding, is ranged and is just very strong in the current meta. The dagger main hand is a great all-rounder, with good power damage, bleeding&poision, some mobility and even self quickness. To me, it would be natural that the mainhand sword should “fill out the blank” and be a weapon that had good power damage and poison damage, foregoing bleeding, as well as keeping its identity as a highly mobile, evasive weapon.

I really think that the poison aspect of the weapon should be highlighted, for a multitude of reasons. First of all, the “signature skill” of the weapon is serpent’s strike, with the evasive snake animation. The other skills on the weapon are “monarch’s leap” and “hornet’s sting” also somewhat relate to poison. By maintaining a viable condition option on the weapon, it opens up for much greater build variety as we can use the sword alongside the offhand dagger and torch, two weapons that very much “fit” the fantasy of a mainhand sword ranger – think a Aragorn-at-Weathertop strider-type character. Finally, I advocate for sword to be poison focused as opposed to bleed focused. Dagger offhand and torch offhand are (primarily) poison and burn focused, respectively. In the Skirmishing traitline there is a very clear “trait path” for i.e. a sword torch build that is not as concerned with bleeding and rather focuses on poison and burn; trappers expertise (with vipers nest and flame trap) over sharpened edges (bleed on crit), striders defense (the sword trait) over hidden barbs (more dangerous bleeding) and quickdraw (more bonfires/stalker strikes) over vicious quarry (crit chance). This is just one example, and I’m sure there are a lot of other things we could do as well; how about shortbow + sword/x? Overall, it just sounds like a lot of fun to have these build options and it would be a shame to leave them in the dust.

Mobility & Control

Currently, the “natural rotation” (not necessarily dps optimal) of the sword is a bit strange, requiring us to use “monarch’s leap” prior to gaining access to serpent’s strike, then using hornet’s sting to reset monarch’s leap and subsequently serpent’s strike. Serpent’s strike “roll-behind” coupled with hornet’s sting dashback reset mechanic makes it so that one can often feel like we are jumping around all over the place, even when you don’t really want to. Sometimes this even leads to inadvertently yeeting yourself of cliffs etc. While mobility and evasion are great and part of the sword’s identity, it should IMO be a more controlled thing.

Personally, I believe that Serpent’s strike should be the “bread and butter” damage skill of the rangers sword – it’s the most recognizable and coolest skill of the sword kit. It’s also an evade. As such, it should be readily available as skill 2 without being locked behind another skill. Instead of using reset mechanic requiring excessive jumping, it could just have a set, relatively short cooldown. An ammo system to kind of match the frequency we currently get could work as well – more on this later.

Skill 3 would then be monarch’s leap as our engage tool, available at a simple button press – this was the good consequence of the last change to ranger sword and should stay. A question is if it should be a dps increase to use this skill or not vs a static target. I would advocate that similarly to greatsword’s leap, it should not be a dps boost to use off cd, so that it can be saved for mobility.

Now, hornet’s sting is then a bit tricky to fit the into kit in a satisfying way. As an “emergency evade” you would ideally want it to be readily available as well, but the sword only has three skill slots. One is reserved for the autoattack, so one of the abilities needs to be a flipover. For the reasons above I think the other two abilities take precedence, but then the question is; should it be a flipover on serpent’s strike or monarch’s leap?

I think that the best option is most likely to have it as a flip-over for Serpent’s Strike, but that it has its own internal CD of 15 seconds (same as it has now). This allows Monarch’s leap to be saved for mobility and still lets us have the Hornet’s sting evade available readily. With serpent’s strike being the “bread and butter” skill, we will be using it often, so it will be on CD a lot, making hornet’s sting available often as well. Hornet’s sting would still reset Monarch’s leap to let you get back into the fray quickly, but it’s not a dps increase to do this so you don’t have to jump around all over the unless you want to.

Alternatively, hornet’s sting could be a Flipover skill for monarch’s leap, but in that case Monarch’s leap should be a dps increase to use so that HS can be used on reaction when in a pinch. This would diminish the chase potential of Monarch’s leap though, so I’m not a huge a fan of this solution.

Potentially convoluted but interesting ammo system?

One consequence of all this is that Serpent’s strike will probably be used off cooldown and therefore not quite as much as a reactionary dodge. I still think it’s worth it as I would like the coolest skill of the kit to be one that I want to use frequently. One way to remedy the issue could be that a special ammo system is introduced, which there is precedent for (see firebrand changes). Let’s say that there is two ammo on serpent’s strike, with a ~3-4 second recharge between when you can use the skill (this would be the “recharge” time present on ammo skills, which is the time you need to wait until you can use another ammo that you have stocked up). But the special part of this ammo system is that the second ammo charge would have a much lower “count recharge” than the first ammo. This incentivizes us to keep one charge available as a defensive measure. So, this idea would see play as as follows, starting from two ammo charges:

1. Use serpent strike.

2. 3-4 second recharge time for SS, during this time Hornet Sting is available.

3. Wait until Serpent strike second ammo is back. During this time, the first ammo of SS is available.

4. SS second ammo back, use it for dmg, Hornet sting available again during recharge

5. Keep repeating the above as long as you can for big DPS… until…

6. Gotta dodge attack! First ammo of SS is available. Use it.

7. Hornet sting is available, and we now have a longer ammo/count recharge to wait for

8. Need to dodge again! Use Hornet’s sting, followed up by Monarch’s leap to get back in the fray

9. Keep waiting for 2 ammo on SS again

Well, I’m not sure exactly if this ammo system is the best way, but it’s an option, at least. There could also be some sort of option where if you actually dodge an attack with the first ammo serpent strike, the count recharge is reduced. However, it might just be simpler to just introduce a consistent, relatively short CD on serpent’s strike and accept that in PvE it will be used off CD for damage and not be that much of a reactionary dodge.

Janky rolling – mirage cosplay?

As a final point; while SS is a favorite ability of mine, I have to admit what I really like is the “serpent strike” part of the attack, and not really the roll itself. The roll, while unique, can be janky, resulting in you ending up in the wrong place and missing the enemy. One option could be to make SS behave more like a mirage ambush; when you use it you briefly enter a distortion state where you can move freely, and when that ends you dash towards the targeted enemy with the serpent strike. This change is perhaps more to ask for as it potentially requires some new animations etc, and could be implemented after the other main changes.

TLDR:

I might’ve gotten carried away a bit here, but hopefully you made it this far! These were some of my ideas for the weapon and how they could go about making it better, without requiring a full rework with new skills & animations. My first concern is that they seem to not be considering the condition damage aspect of the weapon. I believe that to be a mistake as having it as an option would match the philosophy of the other mainhand weapons and facilitate for a lot of fun build options that use the currently underutilized parts of ranger’s kit – sword/torch/dagger, for example. Furthermore, I think this is a good chance to have a look at the interactions and purpose of the sword skills in general, and how to adjust the weapon for a smoother, more intentful gameplay experience. I’m not sure if my suggestions are the optimal solution, but at least I hope to start some discussion on what you all think about my suggestions and/or what you would like to see for ranger’s sword.

(reposted from reddit)  

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Yeah, Sword is essentially always going to be an RP weapon.  Not really fixable in current state of the game and to be put in the bin next to MH dagger.  

To even begin addressing it, it needs some kind of damage mitigation ability and/or a shadow step to keep up with the mobility creep now in the game.  

The best skill sword has right now is the unleashed ambush and that's saying a lot...

[kiwituatara.6053]

"further defining ranger sword as a mobile, power damage weapon."

 

Gut feeling tells me they will remove the evade components of sword and just buff the power dmg numbers. I hope there will at least be a good trade-off

[enkeny.6937]

As a PvE player, sword is sadly useless. the leap abilities are nice, but #2 shoud do more damage/time then an aouto-attack hit. At the moment, Monarch's Leap has so long animation time, that if you don't need gap closer, you will loose dps using it. 
the Monarch's Leap -> Serpent's Strike -> Hornet Sting ->  Monarch's Leap -> Serpent's Strike combo should do more damage, than doing aouto-attack chains for the same time.

Maybe they will rotate the skills again, and we get: #2: Monarch's Leap #3: Serpent's Strike -> Hornet Sting, but this is a PvE option, for pvp Hornet Sting maybe more relevant.

[Koensol.5860]

21 hours ago, kiwituatara.6053 said:

"further defining ranger sword as a mobile, power damage weapon."

 

Gut feeling tells me they will remove the evade components of sword and just buff the power dmg numbers. I hope there will at least be a good trade-off

I have the same. I kittening hope they don't remove them. Chaining the evades is one of the great things about sword. I use it on literally ever condi build in pvp. They just need to increase the duration of the evade frame on sword 2 as the aftercast gets u killed, and they need to decrease cast time on sword 3 as it is too slow to use reactionary. 

Please Anet, keep the defensive part of this weapon intact. Don't force me to use the trash that is dagger mainhand in pvp.... 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Koensol.5860

[enkeny.6937]

7 hours ago, Koensol.5860 said:

Please Anet, keep the defensive part of this weapon intact. Don't force me to use the trash that is dagger mainhand in pvp....

I hope too!
btw: if main hand dagger is trash, then do some changes there too.
also, If you're not soulbeast, they will not force you to dagger, you don't have any choise at all!!

[kiwituatara.6053]

Actually come to think of it, dagger main hand needs a rework more than sword imo…

[Arheundel.6451]

They'll better not touch the evades from sword, it's the only reason why I even bother to use a sword, it's a defensive weapon and I hope they enhance the mobility aspect as they stated rather than adding a power component and if it must be added, it must not be at the expenses of the evades components

[Arheundel.6451]

On 5/3/2023 at 2:51 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Yeah, Sword is essentially always going to be an RP weapon.  Not really fixable in current state of the game and to be put in the bin next to MH dagger.  

To even begin addressing it, it needs some kind of damage mitigation ability and/or a shadow step to keep up with the mobility creep now in the game.  

The best skill sword has right now is the unleashed ambush and that's saying a lot...

It's great for condi builds but..if they remove the evades just to add some numbers to the power aspect then yeah...it will just end up in the trash bin alongside MH dagger

[Downstate.4697]

1. Put the poison on monarchs leap. Have serpent strike do 100% more damage to poisoned foes. 
 

2. reduce cast time of hornets sting to 1/4s. Give it a 3/4s evade frame. Give 3s quickness when dodging an attack.

3.  Striders defense-change icd to 2s. Give sword baseline cooldown reduction

[BumboJumbo.1308]

All I hope for is that anet keeps the effect of hornet sting(the insta recharge to monarchs leap) but gets rid of the rest of hornet sting. 

The rest of the sword is good though.

 

[Beddo.1907]

All main hand weapons have some issues honestly. Every single one does one or two things well, but then lacks something else to make it good. 

Sword has mobility and evades, but damage is on a lower side and it's just... bland?

Axe is decent pick in PvE since the "shotgun 2" buff, but it's usefulness ends at dps and mob marking.

Dagger has good hybrid dps, but feels like a brick on a rope, has low utility and mobility skill doesn't even work as a mobility skill.

[Runechrome.8419]

I think a simple change to help sword perform in PvE would be to make Serpent Strike follow the target in a straight line instead of moving the player to the side. Then they won't necessarily have to rework the animation and all that, and they can keep the effects of Sword 2 without being misplacing the player in important fights.

[Beddo.1907]

2 hours ago, Runechrome.8419 said:

I think a simple change to help sword perform in PvE would be to make Serpent Strike follow the target in a straight line instead of moving the player to the side. Then they won't necessarily have to rework the animation and all that, and they can keep the effects of Sword 2 without being misplacing the player in important fights.

You mean, just add a second cast to 2, but with a different name? That doesn't really solve much.

[AkantorCZ.8952]

My top 3:

1. Faster animations especially for hornet sting followed by monarch leap.
2. Precision swipe (auto attack 3rd) should apply might to both ranger and pet.
3. Rework animations to create more natural flow movements. Sword auto-attack animation on female Charr honestly is a pain to look at. It creates unnatural feeling of the swinging hand being disconnected from the rest of the body. Easy solution would be to bring back original spinning kick animation which imo looked much better. Anyway this is very common mistake in video games so I hope I didn't offend anyone. Still I would strongly recommend to take inspiration from the real world martial art movements because it really helps to create believable and impactful feeling for a character move set.

Edited June 2, 2023 by AkantorCZ.8952

[kharmin.7683]

On 5/31/2023 at 10:22 AM, Runechrome.8419 said:

I think a simple change to help sword perform in PvE would be to make Serpent Strike follow the target in a straight line instead of moving the player to the side. Then they won't necessarily have to rework the animation and all that, and they can keep the effects of Sword 2 without being misplacing the player in important fights.

I always thought that the move to the side was to help encourage Hunter's Tactics and/or weapon swap to short bow for Light on your Feet, which if you are weapon swapping and using Skirmishing you would also gain benefits from other traits (like Tail Wind, Furious Grip).

Granted, I am a very casual OWPvE player, but I find Serpent Strike to work just fine especially with Skirmishing.  /shrug

[Infinity.2876]

Why is MH dagger bad? I use it alot.

The quickness is nice.

I would not complain if it was overhauled and turned into a support weapon.

Currently ranger doesn't have an MH support weapons.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Infinity.2876

[Beddo.1907]

4 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

Why is MH dagger bad? I use it alot.

- Only has damage in it's kit
- Doesn't do well when moving and breaking the four part auto chain
- Quickness from 3 is pretty much useless due to how short it is and the need to hit to get it while...
- ...3 animation is painfully long and the 600 range is miniscule

[Downstate.4697]

24 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

- Only has damage in it's kit
- Doesn't do well when moving and breaking the four part auto chain
- Quickness from 3 is pretty much useless due to how short it is and the need to hit to get it while...
- ...3 animation is painfully long and the 600 range is miniscule

I’d say increase auto attack targets to 3 and make crippling talon bounce between 3 targets might help it but I’m not an expert on condi soulbeast

[Runechrome.8419]

On 5/31/2023 at 7:10 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

You mean, just add a second cast to 2, but with a different name? That doesn't really solve much.

No, I didn't suggest having Serpent Strike renamed.

We already have a second cast on our sword 2 ability, which is called Serpent Strike. I was suggesting that Serpent Strike could be kept as it is right now, but instead of rolling to the side while evading during the cast, it could just roll in a straight line forward (until it hits the target). I believe that change could help in instanced content where you want to group in certain fights, so you don't misplace yourself during the fight when trying to provide DPS.

Personally, I would also like a change to Hornet's Sting (sword 3) as it feels kinda awkward to jump backwards out of the fight just to jump back in with Monarch's Leap (sword 2) again. The evade aspect of the ability and it being a way to reset the cooldown for the sword 2 ability is something I find cool though.

 

On 6/3/2023 at 3:52 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

I always thought that the move to the side was to help encourage Hunter's Tactics and/or weapon swap to short bow for Light on your Feet, which if you are weapon swapping and using Skirmishing you would also gain benefits from other traits (like Tail Wind, Furious Grip).

Granted, I am a very casual OWPvE player, but I find Serpent Strike to work just fine especially with Skirmishing.  /shrug

In some instanced PvE content you usually just stand behind the boss when you want to flank for the extra damage. So I think it would just risk misplacing you in those cases - especially in fights where you need to group.

But you could very well be right on its purpose in OWPvE and in those cases the Serpent Strike might do its job very well as is (I haven't used ranger sword a whole lot myself in OWPvE, I'll admit)! But I just wanted to share my suggestion for a small change to try and help the sword becoming a more viable weapon in instanced PvE content, but I could also very well be wrong whether that is an improvement to the sword overall. 🙂 

[Beddo.1907]

6 minutes ago, Runechrome.8419 said:

No, I didn't suggest having Serpent Strike renamed.

We already have a second cast on our sword 2 ability, which is called Serpent Strike. I was suggesting that Serpent Strike could be kept as it is right now, but instead of rolling to the side while evading during the cast, it could just roll in a straight line forward (until it hits the target). I believe that change could help in instanced content where you want to group in certain fights, so you don't misplace yourself during the fight when trying to provide DPS.

I think you didn't understand what I said.

[Runechrome.8419]

2 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

I think you didn't understand what I said.

Perhaps not. But in that case, would you be so kind to revise what you said, so I can have a better chance of understanding what you meant?

[Beddo.1907]

5 minutes ago, Runechrome.8419 said:

Perhaps not. But in that case, would you be so kind to revise what you said, so I can have a better chance of understanding what you meant?

Sure thing!
"You mean, just add a second cast to 2"
Serpent Strike going in a straight line is similiar to Monarch's Leap (at least that's what I understand from "until it hits the target"), so it's 2 dashes instead on dash and side evade. "but with a different name?" in this context meant it's making Monarch's Leap dash, but with a name Serpent's Strike. Pretty much a joke that leads to opinion.
And as for my point with "That doesn't really solve much."
Adding more mobility is not really doing much to the swords balance and minimal misplacement from Serpent's seems like not something worth the effort to alter it (also axe is better in PvE). Sword already has mobility, but lacks anything else of substance that would make it more viable, so altering the skill in a way that adds mobility is not doing much, especially in PvE.
Sword needs damage, boons, performance rewards (like CD reset from 3) and stuff like that.

[Runechrome.8419]

17 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Sure thing!
"You mean, just add a second cast to 2"
Serpent Strike going in a straight line is similiar to Monarch's Leap (at least that's what I understand from "until it hits the target"), so it's 2 dashes instead on dash and side evade. "but with a different name?" in this context meant it's making Monarch's Leap dash, but with a name Serpent's Strike. Pretty much a joke that leads to opinion.
And as for my point with "That doesn't really solve much."
Adding more mobility is not really doing much to the swords balance and minimal misplacement from Serpent's seems like not something worth the effort to alter it (also axe is better in PvE). Sword already has mobility, but lacks anything else of substance that would make it more viable, so altering the skill in a way that adds mobility is not doing much, especially in PvE.
Sword needs damage, boons, performance rewards (like CD reset from 3) and stuff like that.

Thank you for clarifying.

I didn't get your point when you said "but with a different name?" as it came off to me as you refering to the name of the ability. Probably why the misunderstanding happened then.

I can see what you mean, but I meant the change to Serpent Strike just to become a "forward evade" instead of a "side evade" as it is now. So I agree with you that it would be unnecessary for Serpent strike to become another dash/jump like Monach's Leap, as Monarch's Leap already does its job just fine.

I do think it would be a nice quality of life update for the ability in instanced fights if they made the evade go forward instead of to the side, but kept the rest of the ability as is.

And as far as I understood the developers, they wanted to make the sword a viable DPS weapon in PvE. And I know axe is currently the way better option for DPS right now, but I think that it would be nice to have other weapons rival axe, so we can have more freedom of choice for weapons when it comes to DPS builds. 🙂