An open letter to all the Meta-obsessive players

[MarkoNS.3261]

There are a lot of builds to play with but only one mathematically optimal.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Greener.6204 said:A quick note about your title: If you want people to respect your words enough to read them, do not start by disrespecting said readers.

Thanks for your input......Now are you going to contribute anything of worth to this thread at all or not?

You do realize the attitude you are bringing to your very own thread is exactly the attitude you are complaining about right?

In short, being disrespectful of others.

Not really. Someone comes into my thread purely to tell me off for using the term "meta-sheep" and contribute nothing to the actual conversation (they didn't even read my actual post at all) and I'm expected to welcome them with open arms? Sorry, but that's not how it works at all.

The risk of posting on a public forum. You are intentionally provoking and insulting a part of the player base and literally every one reading the general disscussion has to read your topic title no matter if it is of interest to them or not.

Which one is more toxic in this situation?

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

I can see your point here, however this mentality can also work against you. Any idiot can copy a meta build from the internet, but can they play it effectively? You don't need to have understood the mechanics in order to copy and paste the traits and blindly follow a rotation that someone else has designed. On the flip side, in order to make an off-meta build work you have to do a lot of research into the game mechanics and fully understand the rotation you are going to do in order to maximise your effectiveness with that build. In short, it is a lot harder to be effective with a non-meta build than a meta one, and those that manage it (in my opinion) show more skill and game knowledge than the people who do well by copying the meta.

You are assuming that a player running an offmeta build will put in this amount of effort while players who simply copy paste do not. That's pure speculation, it might happen, it might not happen and it's completely out of any ones control to plan or work with besides getting to know the other player personally.

It's quite simple really, let's assume 2 players of exactly the same skill that being absolute 0.

Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and has 0 clue of how the build works.

Player B runs a non meta build which he made himself and has 0 clue of how the build works.

Logic dictates that Player A will outperform player B.

Now let's take this same situation and take 2 players who know absolutely everything about the game.

Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and fully understands.

Player B runs a non meta build which he created himself and fully understands.

Again, logic dictates that player A will outperform player B simply because his meta build is the most efficient build for the content.

Finally, you can play what ever you want. No one is forcing you to play anything. At the same time, you can't force any one else to play with you. It's the freedom of choice on both sides.

I disagree. Unless you have a player who literally just randomly clicks traits without ever reading what they do, the non-meta player will probably spend a lot more time actually reading and researching what every trait and skill does in game, so your first scenario is quite frankly very unrealistic.

And I'm saying this is a purely subjective unprovable might be scenario. Purely subjective and in no way possible to be proven.

I could just as well say:"Well I believe that people who start using meta builds and even put the effort in to find sites and guides which provide them are invested enough to understand their class well enough to outperform someone who makes his own build. Why? Because the first thing someone does who is inexperienced with the game is not run off to metabattle or quantify looking for meta builds but get to know his class."

And I would be just as hard pressed proving my statement as you are yours.

Did you even read my previous statement at all? There's nothing subjective about it. I said that it takes no skill at all to copy and paste a build from a website and put it in the game. You don't need to have any understanding of the game mechanics to do that, so just having that meta build on your character does NOT make you a good player. Now hopefully people would take the time to actually learn the mechanics of the build before they play it, but not always.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

I can see your point here, however this mentality can also work against you. Any idiot can copy a meta build from the internet, but can they play it effectively? You don't need to have understood the mechanics in order to copy and paste the traits and blindly follow a rotation that someone else has designed. On the flip side, in order to make an off-meta build work you have to do a lot of research into the game mechanics and fully understand the rotation you are going to do in order to maximise your effectiveness with that build. In short, it is a lot harder to be effective with a non-meta build than a meta one, and those that manage it (in my opinion) show more skill and game knowledge than the people who do well by copying the meta.

You are assuming that a player running an offmeta build will put in this amount of effort while players who simply copy paste do not. That's pure speculation, it might happen, it might not happen and it's completely out of any ones control to plan or work with besides getting to know the other player personally.

It's quite simple really, let's assume 2 players of exactly the same skill that being absolute 0.

Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and has 0 clue of how the build works.

Player B runs a non meta build which he made himself and has 0 clue of how the build works.

Logic dictates that Player A will outperform player B.

Now let's take this same situation and take 2 players who know absolutely everything about the game.

Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and fully understands.

Player B runs a non meta build which he created himself and fully understands.

Again, logic dictates that player A will outperform player B simply because his meta build is the most efficient build for the content.

Finally, you can play what ever you want. No one is forcing you to play anything. At the same time, you can't force any one else to play with you. It's the freedom of choice on both sides.

I disagree. Unless you have a player who literally just randomly clicks traits without ever reading what they do, the non-meta player will probably spend a lot more time actually reading and researching what every trait and skill does in game, so your first scenario is quite frankly very unrealistic.

And I'm saying this is a purely subjective unprovable might be scenario. Purely subjective and in no way possible to be proven.

I could just as well say:"Well I believe that people who start using meta builds and even put the effort in to find sites and guides which provide them are invested enough to understand their class well enough to outperform someone who makes his own build. Why? Because the first thing someone does who is inexperienced with the game is not run off to metabattle or quantify looking for meta builds but get to know his class."

And I would be just as hard pressed proving my statement as you are yours.

Did you even read my previous statement at all? There's nothing subjective about it. I said that it takes no skill at all to copy and paste a build from a website and put it in the game. You don't need to have any understanding of the game mechanics to do that, so just having that meta build on your character does NOT make you a good player. Now hopefully people would take the time to actually learn the mechanics of the build before they play it, but not always.

No it does not, but it does take a certain amount of dedication and involvement to even go find a site with meta builds. Something someone who just plays along and randomly makes his build has not yet shown.

Most people do not automatically start looking for meta build sites just for fun and giggles.

[Knuckle Joe.7408]

I don't play GW2 anymore specifically for this. I've played since closed beta and have done everything in the game except raids (Have only done VG, Gorseval and Slothasor). I am fully geared with ascended equipment and 150 agony resist, yet I like to play a power reaper, Axe/Mace Warrior and Power staff tempest.

I know my builds/rotations like the palm of my hand and for a great time I played power staff ele in everything (which was/is the meta) but naturally I got bored of it so I tried other stuff. I always get kicked out of T4 fractals if I bring my power warrior/necro, there has been just one time where everyone in the team told me "its alright, just don't keep dying", which obviously, being an experienced player who knows the mechanics of each encounter, I didn't. We completed the T4's easily without anyone dying.

You could argue that I got "carried", but what is being carried anyways? carried in other games means you aren't doing absolutely nothing for the team and are pretty much dead weight. I wasn't being like that, I was contributing to damage, rezzing and breaking bars, and my DPS was not that bad, and considering all the complexity and surgical precision you need to dish out with some of these metabattle/qT rotations, perhaps my DPS was on par with some of the meta builds.

People are quick to say: "avoid these groups" "group with people that don't have meta builds", but how can you do that when all the groups in the LFG are the same? I guess you cannot change people, they are in their right to request meta only builds, but it wouldn't hurt them to be a little more flexible sometimes. They might even learn new stuff.

I feel the game's very own design is to blame too, sometimes. Some encounters encourage you to actually bring the meta, or fail/struggle horribly each and every time. DPS check phases and constant environment effects come as the prime offender.

As OP said, next time you see someone bringing a non-meta build, just go with it, you might get surprised. Its just a game, not a race, enjoy it instead of looking at it like a chore that needs to be done ASAP daily.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Ben K.6238 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:And the list goes on and on. Now, if there is 1 thing I learned when I played LoL it was that unless you were playing at a professional level, pure skill will beat the meta builds every time, and that you are more likely to do well playing a non-meta pick you enjoy, than a meta pick you don't enjoy. What this means for GW2 is that unless you are in the Legendary league of sPvP or are looking to break speed records in the raids, you don't need the meta.

That's true for sPvP, but not so much for raids.

When you're playing against other players, you're not gated by DPS. When you're playing raids you are. That's why your experience with LoL isn't so relevant to raiding in GW2 - if you aren't playing a build that's optimized to play its role to its fullest effect, then other players have to make up a shortfall that would otherwise be handled by you, no matter how good you are.

And that's why in the OP I also said I did progression raiding in WoW for 3 expansions. The thing you are forgetting about playing PvE in this game (as with most mmorpgs) is that gear defines what you can and cannot do. There's no point trying to do a strict meta build if you don't have the gear to justify it. For example, Condi Mirage Mesmer might be the strongest dps build in raids right now, but if I only have a set of Beserker gear and no Axe then there is absolutely no point in trying to do the Condi build. This is the other reason why it's important to use the meta builds as a guide, not a be-all and end-all.

[Hevoskuuri.3891]

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:I just want to hone in on the bold part for now. One of the things I have learned from playing LoL is that the skill level of players is constantly evolving, and this can drastically affect the meta. There will be times when a certain build will seem unbeatable until someone finds a new way of using the game mechanics, combined with a high enough skill level to beat it. We have seen examples of this in GW2. About a year ago PvPers discovered that you can delay the second function of an ability by jumping immediately after activating the skill. So for example, Mesmer's Shield 4 ability is a dual effect skill. You channel a block, and then at the end of the channel you spawn a clone. However, if you jump right as the blocking channel finishes, you delay the spawning of the clone. This small timing can completely mess with your opponent's dodging and allow the skill the hit. This technique changed a lot of things and allowed Mesmer players to win duels against classes that previously they couldn't beat. And so you get a switch in the meta not because of some balance patch, but because the players got better at the game.

I do get what you mean, but in my post I said that how Guild Wars 2 is built, the player skill can only evolve so much. Let me open that up a bit.

A MOBA, a game like LoL for example, has near-endless amount of possibilities for a successful victory. First things first, you have a character pool of 134 (at the moment) heroes, compared to GW2's 9 professions. The way the in-game map is designed, there is much more room for creative and different tactics to win the game, compared to GW2's "get 500 points before the enemy does". In LoL, you can build your character with much wider range of options than in GW2, and still be effective. In GW2, you have a very small amount of builds beside the meta that even in theory could work, and then you have the skills and traits that have no use whatsoever.

Due to these differences, it's safe to say that GW2 is a much more limited game. With only 9 professions, it's much easier to determine the best possible build for a profession. Unlike LoL, where determining and fine-tuning everything after a patch hits could take a long, long time, maybe even until to the next patch. The absolutely best build and tactic simply cannot be determined, because there are so many options to choose from. However, in Guild Wars 2, determining that data is very fast. There's also the fact that LoL and similar games have probably a million more players than GW2 has ever had, thus the skill levels also vary much more.

So eventually, we come to player skill. Everybody knows the best build for their chosen profession; and let's say they go with it. They play with it everyday, become better and better, until you can't really get much better than that. You can't read the situations of press your buttons any faster. And since we only have 9 professions, many other players also do the same thing. They play their professions for thousands of hours, and at that point their skill level is pretty much the same. Some are better than others, but not by much. Then, there's a guy who chose to NOT go with a meta-build, but instead chose something less effective. Now, this guy also grinds the game for a few thousand hours, until he simply can't get any better. This guy will still lose to the players who chose to go with the meta-build; they are simply more effective. This non-meta person would have to become absolutely impossibly skilled, which is not really possible in a game this limited. There's no variety in tactics, you must be able to beat the opponents to win.

See what I mean? In this game, you can't evolve forever. In the highest PvP tier, the skill level differences are quite minimal, so you absolutely have to pick the best possible build and team composition to have a shot at winning. You can pull of some clever or unexpected plays in LoL and win, but you can't do that here. You defend and capture nodes, kill enemies of be killed by them. That's it.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Knuckle Joe.7408" said:I don't play GW2 anymore specifically for this. I've played since closed beta and have done everything in the game except raids (Have only done VG, Gorseval and Slothasor). I am fully geared with ascended equipment and 150 agony resist, yet I like to play a power reaper, Axe/Mace Warrior and Power staff tempest.

I know my builds/rotations like the palm of my hand and for a great time I played power staff ele in everything (which was/is the meta) but naturally I got bored of it so I tried other stuff. I always get kicked out of T4 fractals if I bring my power warrior/necro, there has been just one time where everyone in the team told me "its alright, just don't keep dying", which obviously, being an experienced player who knows the mechanics of each encounter, I didn't. We completed the T4's easily without anyone dying.

Find a guild of like minded people. There is a ton of guilds which are not filled with hardcore elitist players who complete all the content in the game.

@"Knuckle Joe.7408" said:

You could argue that I got "carried", but what is being carried anyways? carried in other games means you aren't doing absolutely nothing for the team and are pretty much dead weight. I wasn't being like that, I was contributing to damage, rezzing and breaking bars, and my DPS was not that bad, and considering all the complexity and surgical precision you need to dish out with some of these metabattle/qT rotations, perhaps my DPS was on par with some of the meta builds.

Actually no, getting carried means you are not pulling your own weight. It has nothing to do with bringing nothing or something. As long as you were pulling your weight in no matter which fashion, you were not getting carried.

As far as dps, that is easily checked via arcdps both by party members and yourself.

@"Knuckle Joe.7408" said:

People are quick to say: "avoid these groups" "group with people that don't have meta builds", but how can you do that when all the groups in the LFG are the same? I guess you cannot change people, they are in their right to request meta only builds, but it wouldn't hurt them to be a little more flexible sometimes. They might even learn new stuff.

Make your own groups, or better yet, as I had mentioned, find a guild with like-minded players.

[BeardedVagabond.8136]

Didn't even read. The title alone says what person you are.I run minstrel firebrand and I know better than to expect a group who wants meta, to take me.

So either do

1. Do not join a meta wanted group.
2. Start your own party.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Hevoskuuri.3891 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:I just want to hone in on the bold part for now. One of the things I have learned from playing LoL is that the skill level of players is constantly evolving, and this can drastically affect the meta. There will be times when a certain build will seem unbeatable until someone finds a new way of using the game mechanics, combined with a high enough skill level to beat it. We have seen examples of this in GW2. About a year ago PvPers discovered that you can delay the second function of an ability by jumping immediately after activating the skill. So for example, Mesmer's Shield 4 ability is a dual effect skill. You channel a block, and then at the end of the channel you spawn a clone. However, if you jump right as the blocking channel finishes, you delay the spawning of the clone. This small timing can completely mess with your opponent's dodging and allow the skill the hit. This technique changed a lot of things and allowed Mesmer players to win duels against classes that previously they couldn't beat. And so you get a switch in the meta not because of some balance patch, but because the players got better at the game.

I do get what you mean, but in my post I said that how Guild Wars 2 is built, the player skill can only evolve so much. Let me open that up a bit.

A MOBA, a game like LoL for example, has near-endless amount of possibilities for a successful victory. First things first, you have a character pool of 134 (at the moment) heroes, compared to GW2's 9 professions. The way the in-game map is designed, there is much more room for creative and different tactics to win the game, compared to GW2's "get 500 points before the enemy does". In LoL, you can build your character with much wider range of options than in GW2, and still be effective. In GW2, you have a very small amount of builds beside the meta that even in theory could work, and then you have the skills and traits that have no use whatsoever.

Due to these differences, it's safe to say that GW2 is a much more limited game. With only 9 professions, it's much easier to determine the best possible build for a profession. Unlike LoL, where determining and fine-tuning everything after a patch hits could take a long, long time, maybe even until to the next patch. The absolutely best build and tactic simply cannot be determined, because there are so many options to choose from. However, in Guild Wars 2, determining that data is very fast. There's also the fact that LoL and similar games have probably a million more players than GW2 has ever had, thus the skill levels also vary much more.

So eventually, we come to player skill. Everybody knows the best build for their chosen profession; and let's say they go with it. They play with it everyday, become better and better, until you can't really get much better than that. You can't read the situations of press your buttons any faster. And since we only have 9 professions, many other players also do the same thing. They play their professions for thousands of hours, and at that point their skill level is pretty much the same. Some are better than others, but not by much. Then, there's a guy who chose to NOT go with a meta-build, but instead chose something less effective. Now, this guy also grinds the game for a few thousand hours, until he simply can't get any better. This guy will still lose to the players who chose to go with the meta-build; they are simply more effective. This non-meta person would have to become absolutely impossibly skilled, which is not really possible in a game this limited. There's no variety in tactics, you must be able to beat the opponents to win.

See what I mean? In this game, you can't evolve forever. In the highest PvP tier, the skill level differences are quite minimal, so you absolutely have to pick the best possible build and team composition to have a shot at winning. You can pull of some clever or unexpected plays in LoL and win, but you can't do that here. You defend and capture nodes, kill enemies of be killed by them. That's it.

You are mostly referring to macro play in your post whereas I was referring to micro and mechanics. The example I gave before regarding delaying an action of a skill has nothing to do with capturing points in PvP, but purely on developing a greater understanding of the underlying mechanics of the game, and learning things that aren't written about in the game's tooltips (usually because the devs didn't know it was possible either). It's not so much about being able to press buttons faster, but learning things like input priorities, buffering, cancelling animations, etc. That is what I mean by the skill level of players evolving past what their builds would usually allow.

[Greener.6204]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Greener.6204 said:A quick note about your title: If you want people to respect your words enough to read them, do not start by disrespecting said readers.

Thanks for your input......Now are you going to contribute anything of worth to this thread at all or not?

You do realize the attitude you are bringing to your very own thread is exactly the attitude you are complaining about right?

In short, being disrespectful of others.

Not really. Someone comes into my thread purely to tell me off for using the term "meta-sheep" and contribute nothing to the actual conversation (they didn't even read my actual post at all) and I'm expected to welcome them with open arms? Sorry, but that's not how it works at all.

Tell you off? At what point did I insult you? I pointed out how you can better convey your ideas without pushing your intended audience away.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Nick Lentz.6982 said:Didn't even read. The title alone says what person you are.I run minstrel firebrand and I know better than to expect a group who wants meta, to take me.

So either do

1. Do not join a meta wanted group.
2. Start your own party.

Now this should be interesting. Just exactly what person do you think I am?

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Greener.6204 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Greener.6204 said:A quick note about your title: If you want people to respect your words enough to read them, do not start by disrespecting said readers.

Thanks for your input......Now are you going to contribute anything of worth to this thread at all or not?

You do realize the attitude you are bringing to your very own thread is exactly the attitude you are complaining about right?

In short, being disrespectful of others.

Not really. Someone comes into my thread purely to tell me off for using the term "meta-sheep" and contribute nothing to the actual conversation (they didn't even read my actual post at all) and I'm expected to welcome them with open arms? Sorry, but that's not how it works at all.

Tell you off? At what point did I insult you? I pointed out how you can better convey your ideas without pushing your intended audience away.

Look you've already made it clear that you have no intention in actually talking about the topic at hand since you didn't even bother to read my post, so why are you still here? You still haven't contributed anything to this discussion.

[BeardedVagabond.8136]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@"Nick Lentz.6982" said:Didn't even read. The title alone says what person you are.I run minstrel firebrand and I know better than to expect a group who wants meta, to take me.

So either do

1. Do not join a meta wanted group.
2. Start your own party.

Now this should be interesting. Just exactly what person do you think I am?

Nice, the one thing you took away from that.You called people sheep for wanting a meta then switched the title. But before doing that you start attacking the "sheep". That's a bit contradictory.Even after they told you why there is a meta, you still could not grasp it.

To answer your question.

You're either the type of person who WANTS his answer to be right or a narcissistic.

[Greener.6204]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Greener.6204 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Greener.6204 said:A quick note about your title: If you want people to respect your words enough to read them, do not start by disrespecting said readers.

Thanks for your input......Now are you going to contribute anything of worth to this thread at all or not?

You do realize the attitude you are bringing to your very own thread is exactly the attitude you are complaining about right?

In short, being disrespectful of others.

Not really. Someone comes into my thread purely to tell me off for using the term "meta-sheep" and contribute nothing to the actual conversation (they didn't even read my actual post at all) and I'm expected to welcome them with open arms? Sorry, but that's not how it works at all.

Tell you off? At what point did I insult you? I pointed out how you can better convey your ideas without pushing your intended audience away.

Look you've already made it clear that you have no intention in actually talking about the topic at hand since you didn't even bother to read my post, so why are you still here? You still haven't contributed anything to this discussion.

Why? Well, I guess two reasons at this point:

1. You felt insulted by my words, and since I don't like insulting people, I wanted some clarity in where I may have gone wrong.
2. You just asked me. I'm not sure why it's important, but you wanted to know, so I hope that helps.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Nick Lentz.6982 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Nick Lentz.6982 said:Didn't even read. The title alone says what person you are.I run minstrel firebrand and I know better than to expect a group who wants meta, to take me.

So either do

1. Do not join a meta wanted group.
2. Start your own party.

Now this should be interesting. Just exactly what person do you think I am?

Nice, the one thing you took away from that.You called people sheep for wanting a meta then switched the title. But before doing that you start attacking the "sheep". That's a bit contradictory.Even after they told you why there is a meta, you still could not grasp it.

To answer your question.

You're either the type of person who WANTS his answer to be right or a narcissistic.

No you got me wrong. There is a big difference between wanting a meta, and blindly following it to the exclusion of everything else and refusing to play with anyone who doesn't follow the meta. I didn't attack the sheep, I attacked the people who came into this thread just to complain about the title and not contribute anything to the conversation, and who didn't even have the decency to read what I posted in the first place. I have very little patience for people like that.

EDIT: Also, you expect me to read and respond to your entire (such as it is) post when you couldn't even be bothered to accord me the same respect?

[apharma.3741]

There’s 2 aspects to meta, there’s a comp and then there’s the actual nitty gritty details down to class and skills.

A meta comp will generally provide the most efficient way to cover the needed mechanics and buffs/debuffs/heals if needed. A non meta comp may over compensate or just be less efficient, doing a little less damage in one area but can make for much easier and smoother runs, generally they have built in redundancy.

If you get down to classes specifically and roles, that’s where things get toxic, the biggest issue is we have some aspects that are done by some classes far better than others or 1 class provides so much you end up losing far more not having them than having them. The 2 biggest offenders (assuming raids and fractals) are chrono and druid, where no other class can provide the alacrity, variety of boon upkeep, quickness and mechanic bypassing of the former and no other class can stack to 25 might as easily while bringing unique buffs, providing essential boons and healing the group all at the same time.

However in terms of dps it largely doesn’t matter, I’d probably have a massive frown on my face if I had 5 people turn up on dps mirage outside of cairn and Matthias but generally I don’t care so long as you do good damage. I don’t even care what build you play as long as you are doing good damage, play Sw/D weaver if you like, don’t give a fluff unless you end up doing 15k and everyone else is double that.

Actually I just read some of the OPs responses, forget all that, here’s a saying: when you point a finger at someone else there’s three more pointing at you.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@apharma.3741 said:There’s 2 aspects to meta, there’s a comp and then there’s the actual nitty gritty details down to class and skills.

A meta comp will generally provide the most efficient way to cover the needed mechanics and buffs/debuffs/heals if needed. A non meta comp may over compensate or just be less efficient, doing a little less damage in one area but can make for much easier and smoother runs, generally they have built in redundancy.

If you get down to classes specifically and roles, that’s where things get toxic, the biggest issue is we have some aspects that are done by some classes far better than others or 1 class provides so much you end up losing far more not having them than having them. The 2 biggest offenders (assuming raids and fractals) are chrono and druid, where no other class can provide the alacrity, variety of boon upkeep, quickness and mechanic bypassing of the former and no other class can stack to 25 might as easily while bringing unique buffs, providing essential boons and healing the group all at the same time.

However in terms of dps it largely doesn’t matter, I’d probably have a massive frown on my face if I had 5 people turn up on dps mirage outside of cairn and Matthias but generally I don’t care so long as you do good damage. I don’t even care what build you play as long as you are doing good damage, play Sw/D weaver if you like, don’t give a fluff unless you end up doing 15k and everyone else is double that.

Actually I just read some of the OPs responses, forget all that, here’s a saying: when you point a finger at someone else there’s three more pointing at you.

Yes it does seem to be the Chrono and Druid that cause the most problems, as they appear to be the 2 classes that are irreplaceable in raids. Can that change? Possibly but it would require not only a rebalancing of the classes but a redesigning of the raid encounters. Also which responses are you referring to exactly?

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Greener.6204 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Greener.6204 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Greener.6204 said:A quick note about your title: If you want people to respect your words enough to read them, do not start by disrespecting said readers.

Thanks for your input......Now are you going to contribute anything of worth to this thread at all or not?

You do realize the attitude you are bringing to your very own thread is exactly the attitude you are complaining about right?

In short, being disrespectful of others.

Not really. Someone comes into my thread purely to tell me off for using the term "meta-sheep" and contribute nothing to the actual conversation (they didn't even read my actual post at all) and I'm expected to welcome them with open arms? Sorry, but that's not how it works at all.

Tell you off? At what point did I insult you? I pointed out how you can better convey your ideas without pushing your intended audience away.

Look you've already made it clear that you have no intention in actually talking about the topic at hand since you didn't even bother to read my post, so why are you still here? You still haven't contributed anything to this discussion.

Why? Well, I guess two reasons at this point:

1. You felt insulted by my words, and since I don't like insulting people, I wanted some clarity in where I may have gone wrong.
2. You just asked me. I'm not sure why it's important, but you wanted to know, so I hope that helps.

I felt insulted by the fact that you couldn't be bothered to read what I wrote, after I spent quite a bit of time writing it out, and you still haven't contributed anything to this discussion. You are more than welcome to contribute, either speaking for or against my points, but if you aren't going to do that then you are just wasting my time.

[Vulf.3098]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Yes it does seem to be the Chrono and Druid that cause the most problems, as they appear to be the 2 classes that are irreplaceable in raids. Can that change? Possibly but it would require not only a rebalancing of the classes but a redesigning of the raid encounters. Also which responses are you referring to exactly?

The most recent patch shows that they know this is a problem. Warrior went from being mandatory in raids to being replaceable with other might stackers like Renegade etc..

Druid honestly can be addressed fairly easily by some ability tuning. A good start to bringing chrono in line with others is by hard nerfing distortion.

[ReaverKane.7598]

Look, here's the thing:Meta are the most efficient builds out there, so using them will almost guarantee that if you have average skill you'll get above average results, which ensures to other people that you won't be a hinderance.Honestly, i've never seen or been kicked from a party for meta or non-meta builds (i was kicked once because having a guardian could be toxic due to a mistlock instability that made bosses steal your boons, and guess what happens when you're doing high dps and a boss gets retaliation).That will be a rare ocurrance. And unless you're obviously dragging a group down i don't think people will give you much flak. I personally have use a DPS meter, and even when i see a "DPS" player doing little more damage than a healing druid or a support chrono, i won't say anything, unless the group starts to struggle.And for the most part, that's the attitude i've seen from EVERYONE else.Idk, maybe you're having bad luck, but except for raids, and speed runs i've really never seen people ask that.Now if you look at the LFG and see people asking for specific meta builds, then that's a different thing, they want to do it in a way that guarantees to them that they'll complete it, the same way that some people ask for AP or Kill proofs, it's simply someone that has limited time and doesn't want to deal with other people's laxity, lack of experience or "exotic" tastes.

But still it's a rare occurrence that really doesn't merit a post on it.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Yes it does seem to be the Chrono and Druid that cause the most problems, as they appear to be the 2 classes that are irreplaceable in raids. Can that change? Possibly but it would require not only a rebalancing of the classes but a redesigning of the raid encounters. Also which responses are you referring to exactly?

The most recent patch shows that they know this is a problem. Warrior went from being mandatory in raids to being replaceable with other might stackers like Renegade etc..

Druid honestly can be addressed fairly easily by some ability tuning. A good start to bringing chrono in line with others is by hard nerfing distortion.

Well with regards to Distortion sharing, that's a core Mesmer trait, not specific to Chrono, but I agree that should be either taken out or at the very least put on a longer CD than it is currently. Being able to ignore fight mechanics that much is bad design in my opinion. As for druid, I don't know enough about them to comment on whether it would be an easy fix or not.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Look, here's the thing:Meta are the most efficient builds out there, so using them will almost guarantee that if you have average skill you'll get above average results, which ensures to other people that you won't be a hinderance.Honestly, i've never seen or been kicked from a party for meta or non-meta builds (i was kicked once because having a guardian could be toxic due to a mistlock instability that made bosses steal your boons, and guess what happens when you're doing high dps and a boss gets retaliation).That will be a rare ocurrance. And unless you're obviously dragging a group down i don't think people will give you much flak. I personally have use a DPS meter, and even when i see a "DPS" player doing little more damage than a healing druid or a support chrono, i won't say anything, unless the group starts to struggle.And for the most part, that's the attitude i've seen from EVERYONE else.Idk, maybe you're having bad luck, but except for raids, and speed runs i've really never seen people ask that.Now if you look at the LFG and see people asking for specific meta builds, then that's a different thing, they want to do it in a way that guarantees to them that they'll complete it, the same way that some people ask for AP or Kill proofs, it's simply someone that has limited time and doesn't want to deal with other people's laxity, lack of experience or "exotic" tastes.

But still it's a rare occurrence that really doesn't merit a post on it.

Maybe I have just been unlucky then, who knows. Regardless elitism is a problem that appears in most online multiplayer games, and it's up to the community to sort it out, not the devs. You can't solve the problem unless you start talking about it first.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

I can see your point here, however this mentality can also work against you. Any idiot can copy a meta build from the internet, but can they play it effectively? You don't need to have understood the mechanics in order to copy and paste the traits and blindly follow a rotation that someone else has designed. On the flip side, in order to make an off-meta build work you have to do a lot of research into the game mechanics and fully understand the rotation you are going to do in order to maximise your effectiveness with that build. In short, it is a lot harder to be effective with a non-meta build than a meta one, and those that manage it (in my opinion) show more skill and game knowledge than the people who do well by copying the meta.

Is it possible that the meta player won't know his rotations perfectly, or that the non-meta player will have a good build and execute it well? Of course it is. From the point of view of someone forming a random group, there's no surety of the latter. With the former, there is at least the fact that this player has tried to join the meta club. You're looking at the issue from an efficiency perspective. What's misleading is that often those who defend meta choices refer to efficiency as the primary motivator. However, there is another primary motivator. From a sociological perspective, the choice to play and demand meta is attempting to find and play with people of like minds. In the end, "I want to hang with people who think as I do." is going to be a stronger driving force in group formation -- even in a drop-in/drop-out setting like LFG.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:Maybe I have just been unlucky then, who knows. Regardless elitism is a problem that appears in most online multiplayer games, and it's up to the community to sort it out, not the devs. You can't solve the problem unless you start talking about it first.

You said it yourself, it happens in every game, some people want to play optimally, it's not your place to tell them they can't and force your view of how build diversity works on them.Just find a different party that doesn't have those views. These will be the majority. Now if you want to play with "elitist" players that want to do speed runs, or use tactics and mechanics that require a meta build, then don't cry that they want a meta build.I've played GW2 since launch, and i've barely ever played using strict meta builds. Some times i'd be equally effective, others not so much, but when i KNEW my build was subpar, i wouldn't force it upon others.My power DragonHunter is NOT a Meta build (as in i don't use Berzerker gear - which is useless because you have 100% crit rate with 2 assassin's trinkets), and i've never seen other DHs (or power builds in general) outdps me, and because i use Valkyrie's instead of Berzerker, which substitutes precision with Vitality, i have a bit more survivability.And yet, if a guy is going into a party and can barely do more dps than a freaking healing druid or a minstrel's chrono... Then maybe, just maybe, he's being carried, and not being a useful member of the party, and if you're happy with that, then the problem isn't the Elitists it's that condescension.If a person wants to slack, ok, its their thing, they want to enjoy doing things a different way, but don't ask others to carry their weight for them. I'm not saying you're like that, just saying, that, sure playing off-meta isn't a bad thing, actually it's a GREAT thing, because, you know the guys that "decide" what's meta, might sometimes be missing out on a detail that you thought up. I mean i was playing condi ranger back when everyone was using berzerker gear and berzerker gear only. Soloing i was a god, i was farming champions before champions where farmed (as in they gave the same rewards as normal mobs, but i did it for the fun), but in groups i got fed up with thieves and warriors that had 0 condi damage getting all the condi stacks because first hit, and my damage was nill.. So when i made my first ascended set for him i made it assassin's with long bow... Guess what happened a few months later? Yep, they changed how condis work, and nowadays most dps builds on Ranger are based around condis.