An open letter to all the Meta-obsessive players

[serialkicker.5274]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

I can see your point here, however this mentality can also work against you. Any idiot can copy a meta build from the internet, but can they play it effectively? You don't need to have understood the mechanics in order to copy and paste the traits and blindly follow a rotation that someone else has designed. On the flip side, in order to make an off-meta build work you have to do a lot of research into the game mechanics and fully understand the rotation you are going to do in order to maximise your effectiveness with that build. In short, it is a lot harder to be effective with a non-meta build than a meta one, and those that manage it (in my opinion) show more skill and game knowledge than the people who do well by copying the meta.

You are assuming that a player running an offmeta build will put in this amount of effort while players who simply copy paste do not. That's pure speculation, it might happen, it might not happen and it's completely out of any ones control to plan or work with besides getting to know the other player personally.

It's quite simple really, let's assume 2 players of exactly the same skill that being absolute 0.

Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and has 0 clue of how the build works.

Player B runs a non meta build which he made himself and has 0 clue of how the build works.

Logic dictates that Player A will outperform player B.

Now let's take this same situation and take 2 players who know absolutely everything about the game.

Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and fully understands.

Player B runs a non meta build which he created himself and fully understands.

Again, logic dictates that player A will outperform player B simply because his meta build is the most efficient build for the content.

Finally, you can play what ever you want. No one is forcing you to play anything. At the same time, you can't force any one else to play with you. It's the freedom of choice on both sides.

I disagree. Unless you have a player who literally just randomly clicks traits without ever reading what they do, the non-meta player will probably spend a lot more time actually reading and researching what every trait and skill does in game, so your first scenario is quite frankly very unrealistic.

And I'm saying this is a purely subjective unprovable might be scenario. Purely subjective and in no way possible to be proven.

I could just as well say:"Well I believe that people who start using meta builds and even put the effort in to find sites and guides which provide them are invested enough to understand their class well enough to outperform someone who makes his own build. Why? Because the first thing someone does who is inexperienced with the game is not run off to metabattle or quantify looking for meta builds but get to know his class."

And I would be just as hard pressed proving my statement as you are yours.

Did you even read my previous statement at all? There's nothing subjective about it. I said that it takes no skill at all to copy and paste a build from a website and put it in the game. You don't need to have any understanding of the game mechanics to do that, so just having that meta build on your character does NOT make you a good player. Now hopefully people would take the time to actually learn the mechanics of the build before they play it, but not always.

No it does not, but it does take a certain amount of dedication and involvement to even go find a site with meta builds. Something someone who just plays along and randomly makes his build has not yet shown.

Most people do not automatically start looking for meta build sites just for fun and giggles.

So, you pretty much assume that everyone who makes his own build has IQ below 80 and will always pick the biggest mess they can? If you have at least a bit experience from mmos and a few brain cells, it's not hard to put up a decent if not good build together without looking at any webssite.By your logic, someone who just can't bother to take a look at their profession, but rather copy pastes build from internet will perform better than someone who picks his own traits and skills because he probably at least read the descriptions? Your zero knowledge meta guy would probably lick the floor in first 5 seconds.

[Leamas.5803]

I don't play a meta builds because I typically find the builds restrictive and not enjoyable. That said, I would never knowingly try to join a meta-only group because that's not fair to them and makes me look like a dick. While I'm certainly skilled enough to do what they want, I know my game play style and I'm simply not disciplined enough to stick to a certain rotation...it's just robotic and would get boring for me. My necro, for instance. I know I could improve damage by switching to different weapons and tweaking my build and slot skills (A full chill build, for instance), but I have fun running partial MM and playing with a GS and with this I can handle 95% of the core game content.

[Shirlias.8104]

@Genesis.5169 said:Not to the degree of what i see in gw2. And every time i try to debate this with other people they just get even more entrenched in there beliefs.

I can accept this point of view, but even if gw2 is way worse than the others mmo the fact remains.

Granted i have no way how to solve this issue other then getting every raider to play another mmo for a long period of time.

I doubt it would change a thing about.I guess that pugs fail some encounters even with a meta squad, and because of that they will try to reduce that possibility the more they can.

I feel that probably would be the opposite instead.Players, wipe after wipe, will manage to try with a meta build... then they will find themselves dead because of team mates with non meta build.At that point they will start to realize that, in a pug context, it's better to build up a good team, and it's not selfish to search for players which use meta builds.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:A whole bunch of stuff.

Who wants to put hours of effort into wiping just because Johnny and his wife are good people and they just really like to play their minstrel thief builds? Don't get me wrong. I love Johnny. He's a great guy! But I really wish he'd put in a little bit of effort to optimize his build and practice his rotations. Everyone else does. And yes, we usually finish the raid because they aren't THAT difficult and we've put in plenty of practice. But it'd go quicker and more smoothly if Johnny took it a little bit more seriously.

[FrostDraco.8306]

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:Just before I start, I might as well give a little background on myself. I started playing online games back in early 2007 with the original guildwars, which I played semi-competitively. From there I moved onto WoW where I did progression raiding through TBC, Wrath and Cataclysm. Since then I've most been playing League of Legends (reaching the top 10% of players in Europe) before finally giving it up and moving to GW2. I say this only to give you an idea of where I am coming from with my thoughts. Now onto the topic at hand. When I first started playing GW2 I was amazed at the amount of diversity and options available. There seemed to be a playstyle to suit everyone which felt amazing. Of course I got to level 80 only to be told "you must play the meta, or else" with the meta being a very very few select builds that are accepted for each game type. Now I know there are many players who don't follow the meta, but there seem to be more meta-obsessives in this community than in any other gaming community I've known(which is strange considering how little time you've had dps meters and raids available compared to other mmorpgs). I'm not going to lie, it is very frustrating to go into a game and be told to play a certain way no matter what. Here's a little example of what I mean:

"If you play a Guardian in fractals you have to go condi dps""if you play a Mesmer you have to go Chrono""Don't take a healing Elementalist, use a Druid instead"

And the list goes on and on. Now, if there is 1 thing I learned when I played LoL it was that unless you were playing at a professional level, pure skill will beat the meta builds every time, and that you are more likely to do well playing a non-meta pick you enjoy, than a meta pick you don't enjoy. What this means for GW2 is that unless you are in the Legendary league of sPvP or are looking to break speed records in the raids, you don't need the meta. Now of course if you enjoy playing the meta builds there is nothing stopping you, but telling someone to play a style they don't like just because it's the "meta" is very petty and obnoxious in my opinion. The other main issue at work here is that I don't think a lot of people understand the difference between something being viable, and being in the meta. "Meta" stands for "Most Effective Tactic Available", meaning the very best of the best. Does that mean other things cannot work? Of course it doesn't. On the other hand, viable simply means something that works for the given situation. So for example, Chrono Mesmer is a meta pick for high end PvE, but just because a Firebrand Guardian isn't quite as good doesn't mean it isn't still viable. It can work, just not quite as well. Does that mean we shouldn't use Support Guardians in high end PvE? Absolutely not. On the other hand, an unviable build would be something like trying to do a condi Mesmer build using only a Greatsword. That is something that will never work no matter how good you are because you will never apply any conditions with that weapon (unless you have sigils attached).

So the question is, why have the meta at all? Well if you want to play at the very top of the standings then I agree the meta is the way to go, but this might only apply to perhaps 1-2% of the total playerbase. Is the meta still useful to the other 98%? Yes, but only as a guide. The meta gives you an insight into the thought process of the top players, and it can help new players put their foot in the door without feeling overwhelmed. It can give you a starting point from which to develop your own playstyle from. The meta therefore should be used as a guide to help you find the path, not be the be-all and end-all of the game. No average player should feel forced into playing the meta, especially if the builds in question are uncomfortable for them to play. At the end of the day this is a game and if you don't enjoy playing it, there is no point in playing at all.

So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Getting some backlash for my original title, so I've changed it. Now we can actually discuss the topic at hand without getting offended too much.

Even in your LoL example you are wrong. There are teir list every season, and some champions are way better than others in a given patch. Or maybe you werent arent for pre-rework Urgot or Eve?

[Bladestrom.6425]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:A whole bunch of stuff.

Who wants to put hours of effort into wiping just because Johnny and his wife are good people and they just really like to play their minstrel thief builds? Don't get me wrong. I love Johnny. He's a great guy! But I really wish he'd put in a little bit of effort to optimize his build and practice his rotations. Everyone else does. And yes, we usually finish the raid because they aren't THAT difficult and we've put in plenty of practice. But it'd go quicker and more smoothly if Johnny took it a little bit more seriously.

The problem is not johnny. You seem to feel the need to ascribe negative behaviour (he doesnt put effort in) to someone you are playing a game with, when actually it is you that cares more about speed of results than insulting players you play with, odd eh. The root problem is that rote memorisation of key press rotations does not float everyones boat in a mmorpg, but current raids are tuned for this.

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:A whole bunch of stuff.

Who wants to put hours of effort into wiping just because Johnny and his wife are good people and they just really like to play their minstrel thief builds? Don't get me wrong. I love Johnny. He's a great guy! But I really wish he'd put in a little bit of effort to optimize his build and practice his rotations. Everyone else does. And yes, we usually finish the raid because they aren't THAT difficult and we've put in plenty of practice. But it'd go quicker and more smoothly if Johnny took it a little bit more seriously.

The problem is not johnny. You seem to feel the need to ascribe negative behaviour (he doesnt put effort in) to someone you are playing a game with, when actually it is you that cares more about speed of results than insulting players you play with, odd eh. The root problem is that rote memorisation of key press rotations does not float everyones boat in a mmorpg, but current raids are tuned for this.

It's not about the speed. It's about the experience. Please try to understand that wiping time and again on mechanics you've done dozens of times with ease isn't fun. It's annoying. The vast majority of the groups don't care about the speed at all. They care about the smooth experience, about having fun instead of getting annoyed. It is only normal.

[nekuxdesu.4796]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:Anet could get opinions from those who regularly use non-meta builds to help provide meaningful and impactful buffs to the rest of the professions, thus increasing build diversity.

Meh, Anet have always done their own thing when it came to class balancing. I remember back in GW1 they would rebalance the PvP every 2-3 weeks, regardless of what the community wanted at the time.

I've owned GW1 for ten years and bought GW2 five years ago and this is the first time I'm posting on the forums. (pretty sure gw1 didnt have official forums)If you really believe META means "most effective tactic available" I advise you to really do some research into that but do whatever your heart desires.What I'm really here for is"If you play a Guardian in fractals you have to go condi dps""if you play a Mesmer you have to go Chrono"and " So for example, Chrono Mesmer is a meta pick for high end PvE, but just because a Firebrand Guardian isn't quite as good doesn't mean it isn't still viable. It can work, just not quite as well. Does that mean we shouldn't use Support Guardians in high end PvE? Absolutely not."I'm starting to think you have not played this game my man. Mirage is literally shit kicking every single other class in raw dps in nearly every single situation. You seem to also be missing logs, parses, and other information to show off these "examples" of people being meanies. Ironic how you care about "offending" people when you're here acting like this. Heck you even try to lie and say people only say the only viable spec for guardian is FB when objectively DH is better for just as many fights as FB is. You ever done KC my man? Samarog? Deimos? You should post some logsWhy are you not yourself posting quick runs of 99cm or 100cm or raid clears with your non-meta builds. Probably because no one wants a fifty minute 99cm run or a six hour wing 4 run. "Completion" does not mean you should be brought. That is a HORRIBLE marker for acceptable, its a good marker for possibly acceptable after further build tuning.

Also why even bring cata-era wow into this? This only shits on your argument, they had literally entire classes that would only play one spec because others were shitLooking at you survival hunter

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Yes, again, this is a problem. But dependency on meta is a problem with the

content

, not with the people.

Actually it's a problem with both.

Challenging content creates barriers. Always has.

People will want to clear the content they play as effective and safe as possible within their own feel good parameters. Some are more tolerant with multiple tries or in certain situations, others want to be as efficient as possible. The problems arise when people with different priorities mix.

This can be remedied by playing with people with similar objectives and priorities. Never with forcing your own ideas on others.

Fair point. Toxicity and elitism is a problem with both.

What i was trying to say is that this problem becomes much more visible, when content is done in such a way where one of those groups has a much greater chance of success than the other. Raids are such a content. Basically, the necessity of running the efficient builds/group setups is just much greater in here than in other parts of the game.

And as long as people will want content that is truly challenging, there's no way around it.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:A whole bunch of stuff.

Who wants to put hours of effort into wiping just because Johnny and his wife are good people and they just really like to play their minstrel thief builds? Don't get me wrong. I love Johnny. He's a great guy! But I really wish he'd put in a little bit of effort to optimize his build and practice his rotations. Everyone else does. And yes, we usually finish the raid because they aren't THAT difficult and we've put in plenty of practice. But it'd go quicker and more smoothly if Johnny took it a little bit more seriously.

The problem is not johnny. You seem to feel the need to ascribe negative behaviour (he doesnt put effort in) to someone you are playing a game with, when actually it is you that cares more about speed of results than insulting players you play with, odd eh. The root problem is that rote memorisation of key press rotations does not float everyones boat in a mmorpg, but current raids are tuned for this.

It's not about the speed. It's about the experience. Please try to understand that wiping time and again on mechanics you've done dozens of times with ease isn't fun. It's annoying. The vast majority of the groups don't care about the speed at all. They care about the smooth experience, about having fun instead of getting annoyed. It is only normal.

ye thats why i think easier mode should be there for people who want to enjoy the experience without the tight tuning and need to rote memorise key rotations to a fine level and limit build felxability etc. Multiple difficulty modes really is win win in a game with no power curve.

[Ashen.2907]

Play how you want and let others do the same. If a group prefers the speed and efficiency of a meta run, more power to them. That is what they find fun.

If other players prefer non meta play, more power to them. That is how they have fun.

If you are advertising an LFG, clearly state what kind of group it is. Dont join groups that dont match your preference, and dont insist that groups change to suit your preference.

Its not rocket science. Play with people who share your preferred play style.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:A whole bunch of stuff.

Who wants to put hours of effort into wiping just because Johnny and his wife are good people and they just really like to play their minstrel thief builds? Don't get me wrong. I love Johnny. He's a great guy! But I really wish he'd put in a little bit of effort to optimize his build and practice his rotations. Everyone else does. And yes, we usually finish the raid because they aren't THAT difficult and we've put in plenty of practice. But it'd go quicker and more smoothly if Johnny took it a little bit more seriously.

The problem is not johnny. You seem to feel the need to ascribe negative behaviour (he doesnt put effort in) to someone you are playing a game with, when actually it is you that cares more about speed of results than insulting players you play with, odd eh. The root problem is that rote memorisation of key press rotations does not float everyones boat in a mmorpg, but current raids are tuned for this.

You seem to want to ignore the fact that raids require a significant investment of time and that deliberately wasting 9 other players time by refusing to comply with the very reasonable request of meeting some bare minimum of performance for the role you're expected to play is the definition of negative behavior. Perhaps you simply lack the ability. That's fine. But if it were me, I'd drop out of the raid before causing problems for the rest of the group. To do otherwise is just selfish. I mean, it's just a game. Do you really need the virtual rewards so badly?

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:A whole bunch of stuff.

Who wants to put hours of effort into wiping just because Johnny and his wife are good people and they just really like to play their minstrel thief builds? Don't get me wrong. I love Johnny. He's a great guy! But I really wish he'd put in a little bit of effort to optimize his build and practice his rotations. Everyone else does. And yes, we usually finish the raid because they aren't THAT difficult and we've put in plenty of practice. But it'd go quicker and more smoothly if Johnny took it a little bit more seriously.

The problem is not johnny. You seem to feel the need to ascribe negative behaviour (he doesnt put effort in) to someone you are playing a game with, when actually it is you that cares more about speed of results than insulting players you play with, odd eh. The root problem is that rote memorisation of key press rotations does not float everyones boat in a mmorpg, but current raids are tuned for this.

It's not about the speed. It's about the experience. Please try to understand that wiping time and again on mechanics you've done dozens of times with ease isn't fun. It's annoying. The vast majority of the groups don't care about the speed at all. They care about the smooth experience, about having fun instead of getting annoyed. It is only normal.

ye thats why i think easier mode should be there for people who want to enjoy the experience without the tight tuning and need to rote memorise key rotations to a fine level and limit build felxability etc. Multiple difficulty modes really is win win in a game with no power curve.

That experience already exists in fractals. A theoretical "easy mode" raid will be indistinguishable from lower-tier fractals in terms of gameplay experience.

[Shiyo.3578]

Condi sword weaver is an extremely powerful non-meta build.

Non-meta builds can exist very easily.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:A whole bunch of stuff.

Who wants to put hours of effort into wiping just because Johnny and his wife are good people and they just really like to play their minstrel thief builds? Don't get me wrong. I love Johnny. He's a great guy! But I really wish he'd put in a little bit of effort to optimize his build and practice his rotations. Everyone else does. And yes, we usually finish the raid because they aren't THAT difficult and we've put in plenty of practice. But it'd go quicker and more smoothly if Johnny took it a little bit more seriously.

The problem is not johnny. You seem to feel the need to ascribe negative behaviour (he doesnt put effort in) to someone you are playing a game with, when actually it is you that cares more about speed of results than insulting players you play with, odd eh. The root problem is that rote memorisation of key press rotations does not float everyones boat in a mmorpg, but current raids are tuned for this.

You seem to want to ignore the fact that raids require a significant investment of time and that deliberately wasting 9 other players time by refusing to comply with the very reasonable request of meeting some bare minimum of performance for the role you're expected to play is the definition of negative behavior. Perhaps you simply lack the ability. That's fine. But if it were me, I'd drop out of the raid before causing problems for the rest of the group. To do otherwise is just selfish. I mean, it's just a game. Do you really need the virtual rewards so badly?

Usual raider 'you must not have ability/raided/are qualified to argue with me' nonesense. Ive spent 10k hours on a single raid character in the past, i know perfectly well what raiding take. Read my last sentence again, the issue is how the raids are tuned, it encourages behaviour like yours. What would be better however is raids with different difficulties to seperate the pros like yourself with the mortal player, then when you want to raid with your friend johnny that you love you can without needing to tell him to 'put in a little bit of effort', win win for all.

[Malediktus.9250]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:This is because there is no auto group feature in gw2, this is why groups are so elitist, if they added auto grouping nobody would care and the dungeons would still get completed.auto grouping is for extreme casuals. I do not want to spend an hour on content that can be completed in 15min

[AliamRationem.5172]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Usual raider 'you must not have ability/raided/are qualified to argue with me' nonesense. Ive spent 10k hours on a single raid character in the past, i know perfectly well what raiding take. Read my last sentence again, the issue is how the raids are tuned, it encourages behaviour like yours. What would be better however is raids with different difficulties to seperate the pros like yourself with the mortal player, then when you want to raid with your friend johnny that you love you can without needing to tell him to 'put in a little bit of effort', win win for all.

I don't even raid. I just think it's selfish to burden 9 other players and get an attitude about it like it's your right to do so.

[ChrisLew.5492]

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:This is because there is no auto group feature in gw2, this is why groups are so elitist, if they added auto grouping nobody would care and the dungeons would still get completed.auto grouping is for extreme casuals. I do not want to spend an hour on content that can be completed in 15min

Then don’t use the feature (were it to exist). In fact, you should be grateful if GW2 ever gets a group finder so that you never have to party again with filthy casuals and you can make only your LNHB and 100000000 insight ONLY groups.

[Belorn.2659]

The difference in DPS can always be judged through DPS meters. If a non-meta build is viable and someone intend to do a DPS role, then the meter will validate the effort. I pug fractals regularly and as long the DPS roles are above 50% of top DPS in the party, and above DPS of the support, then they are fulfilling the role in my view.

Support is a bit of different story. Healing comes in two forms, burst and regen. Different encounters need different form of healing. Ele don't have burst healing and fractals generally have encounters that is designed to do large burst damage in short durations. To make matter worse in order to make a non-meta healer you also need to make 25 stacks of might to the whole party or bring traits that result in similar DPS increase. Non-meta healers are not "slightly worse", but rather not suitable for the same role for the wast majority of the content.

Which leaves us to non-meta builds that tries to do several roles at the same time, excusing bad performance in the name of being multi-role. The problem of the idea to have multi-roles is that you need several of them in order to fulfill any single role, and no single person can do that by themselves. Having roles spread out on multiple people also require more coordination and is as a group harder to do and thus less welcome if imposed.

[Cuon Alpinus.7645]

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:During PoF beta, I did point out how dissapointing it was that they didn't offer an alternative to chrono for alacrity. Didn't see many others bringing this point up.

M/a Ventari Renegade exists. You apply EZPZ 100% alacrity uptime combined with absurdly good heals, might stacking through F2, Assassin's presence group buff at the cost of a bit of personal DPS, and can be traited to give decent amounts of protection periodically. It's like an intermediary bouncing between druid and chrono, but it unfortunately lacks chrono's superb tanking abilities as well as quickness uptime.

[Vulf.3098]

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:M/a Ventari Renegade exists. You apply EZPZ 100% alacrity uptime combined with absurdly good heals, might stacking through F2, Assassin's presence group buff at the cost of a bit of personal DPS, and can be traited to give decent amounts of protection periodically. It's like an intermediary bouncing between druid and chrono, but it unfortunately lacks chrono's superb tanking abilities as well as quickness uptime.

Herald and Guardian can already tank and have been able to do so for awhile now. Until Distortion gets nerfed nothing will ever be able to compete with chrono.

[zealex.9410]

I mean i dont think if i go in a heroic or mythic raid in wow with survival hunter ppl will be particularly happy about it. Or if i pick Soraka in league and go mid ppl will be happy.