An open letter to all the Meta-obsessive players

[Feanor.2358]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Now, if there is 1 thing I learned when I played LoL it was that unless you were playing at a professional level, pure skill will beat the meta builds every time, and that you are more likely to do well playing a non-meta pick you enjoy, than a meta pick you don't enjoy. What this means for GW2 is that unless you are in the Legendary league of sPvP or are looking to break speed records in the raids, you don't need the meta. Now of course if you enjoy playing the meta builds there is nothing stopping you

Here's exactly what you don't understand. If you're not playing meta, you'll effectively be stopping me. The meta builds rely on a specific party composition. It relies on role specialization within the party, so that some characters provide buffs and healing and others provide the dps. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. Does it make the whole experience much smoother? Definitely.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

Ok, I'm so confused by some of the responses in this thread that I'm just going to leave it now. Clearly I haven't been able to voice my intent well enough for this and am getting bogged down in semantics. Feel free to keep discussing this, but I won't be replying to any more posts on this thread.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:I see your point, and nobody is asking you to spend an hour on a boss trying to carry dead weight. Throughout this entire thread I get the feeling people are thinking I am trying to justify bad builds that have no chance of working. I'm not, at all. As I said before, there is a huge difference between a build that is viable but not part of the meta, and a non-viable build. My whole point is that just because a build isn't featured on Quantify doesn't mean it is useless. All I'm asking is for non-meta builds to be given a chance instead of immediately rejected just because they aren't in the meta.

And I agree with you. If the meta was really strict then the only dps accepted would be Weaver (and as long as it's bugged Mirage) but there are other dps builds accepted too although they do not deal the same amount of damage.The main issue with non-meta builds (that are also working/good) is the lack of communication.The way more often example found on these forums (and the cause of many anti-dps meter threads) is a healing Tempest joining a Fractal run. I've seen it as the opening in so many threads that I think that healer Tempest is a great example. Every single time a problem with it surfaced on the forums, the solution was always the same: communicate. If the healer Tempest told beforehand that they are a healer Tempest it wouldn't cause a problem.

When someone joins a pug team with a certain profession they are expected to run a meta build, it would be nice to say if you are not and if the build is an actual working one then many more groups would accept that player. That's what the non-meta user can do to help, then it's up to the meta players to be more open and accept different builds in their teams.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Feanor.2358 said:Here's exactly what you don't understand. If you're not playing meta, you'll effectively be stopping me. The meta builds rely on a specific party composition. It relies on role specialization within the party, so that some characters provide buffs and healing and others provide the dps. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. Does it make the whole experience much smoother? Definitely.

That's not entirely true though. Although the builds that provide the buffs need to be there, and actually provide them, the dps roles are already filled by less than the best builds. If you were strictly looking for the best dps you'd use only Mirage and Weaver, because all the other builds deal less damage, but in the real game that's not the case and I've been to more groups without a single Weaver or Mirage than on groups that had only those two as dps.

There are roles that MUST be the meta, but not all of them.

[Shirlias.8104]

@maddoctor.2738 said:When someone joins a pug team with a certain profession they are expected to run a meta build, it would be nice to say if you are not and if the build is an actual working one then many more groups would accept that player. That's what the non-meta user can do to help, then it's up to the meta players to be more open and accept different builds in their teams.

But even so, why should the team take you?There are plenty of players who want to do raid and manage to bring a class with a meta build.

I mean i do agree with you that the one who join the squad would be the one which tell the others that he's playing a different build and that he can manage a decent DPS, this is respectful and friendly towards the others... but even so, why should they bet on you?

You could expect that they kick you but also that they decide to give you a chance, indeed, but even so the best thing would be start a own raid open to everybody and try to manage at least a kill.

This is to me the major issue.

Players want the kill and put blame on each others if it don't happen, though maybe it's the first time they do the fight, their build is not the most efficient, and their skill is not really above average. This leads to frustration and chain disband.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Shirlias.8104 said:I mean i do agree with you that the one who join the squad would be the one which tell the others that he's playing a different build and that he can manage a decent DPS, this is respectful and friendly towards the others... but even so, why should they bet on you?

It really depends on the build, there are loads of horrible choices but there are also choices that can work.After all, otherwise all dps slots would be filled by Weavers and Mirages no?

A Druid in Magi gear that for the time cannot swap to Harrier (stat was just added) can do the job just fine.A Dragonhunter deals less damage than Firebrand but is still competitive.A condi Engineer is still valid, even though Holosmith deals slightly more damage.

Of course these are all builds that used to be meta, and are still really good, but other builds might work too. That person trying to join a raid team on a condi soulbeast while wielding Sunrise won't be accepted (and for good reason)

[Shirlias.8104]

@maddoctor.2738 said:After all, otherwise all dps slots would be filled by Weavers and Mirages no?

I don't know. Maybe in order to incrase survavility other classes are required ( firebrand maybe, for average dps and quickness ).

[Feanor.2358]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Here's exactly what you don't understand. If you're not playing meta, you'll effectively be stopping me. The meta builds rely on a specific party composition. It relies on role specialization within the party, so that some characters provide buffs and healing and others provide the dps. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. Does it make the whole experience much smoother? Definitely.

That's not entirely true though. Although the builds that provide the buffs need to be there, and actually provide them, the dps roles are already filled by less than the best builds. If you were strictly looking for the best dps you'd use only Mirage and Weaver, because all the other builds deal less damage, but in the real game that's not the case and I've been to more groups without a single Weaver or Mirage than on groups that had only those two as dps.

There are roles that MUST be the meta, but not all of them.

Yeah, it doesn't have to be a strict meta. I would't mind trying a different support composition either, as long as it is capable of providing the vital buffs and distortion. Just as I don't mind different dps classes, as long as they are sensible. But if you're trying to fill a dps spot in cele gear you can be just as detrimental to the party as if you're filling a support role and not giving that support.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Did you even read my previous statement at all? There's nothing subjective about it. I said that it takes no skill at all to copy and paste a build from a website and put it in the game. You don't need to have any understanding of the game mechanics to do that, so just having that meta build on your character does NOT make you a good player. Now hopefully people would take the time to actually learn the mechanics of the build before they play it, but not always.It takes no skill to run a non-meta build as well. And at least the meta build will have a guaranteed synnergy between weapons, traits, skills and gearset. With non-meta build player you have no such guarantee at all.

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:And yet the amount of thumbs up I've received on my post in the short amount of time it's been up tells me that people agree with my assessment, and that meta elitism is a problem in this game.Of course it is a problem. It's however not a problem that primarily lies with people's attitudes (even if it's those that generate toxicity), but one that was created by introducing content that puts emphasis on build efficiency.

In short, people ask about meta builds because meta builds do confer an actual advantage over non-meta ones, and increase the chances of success and smooth run.It's one thing if running off-meta parties result in slower, but still succesful run (like it was with dungeons). It's completely another if you run a significant risk of this causing a failure or making the run unnecessarily painful. In the second case you can't really say that players demanding you run an efficient build are unreasonable.

Yes, again, this is a problem. But dependency on meta is a problem with the content, not with the people.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Yes, again, this is a problem. But dependency on meta is a problem with the content, not with the people.

Actually it's a problem with both.

Challenging content creates barriers. Always has.

People will want to clear the content they play as effective and safe as possible within their own feel good parameters. Some are more tolerant with multiple tries or in certain situations, others want to be as efficient as possible. The problems arise when people with different priorities mix.

This can be remedied by playing with people with similar objectives and priorities. Never with forcing your own ideas on others.

[Feanor.2358]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@zoomborg.9462 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Just before I start, I might as well give a little background on myself. I started playing online games back in early 2007 with the original guildwars, which I played semi-competitively. From there I moved onto WoW where I did progression raiding through TBC, Wrath and Cataclysm. Since then I've most been playing League of Legends (reaching the top 10% of players in Europe) before finally giving it up and moving to GW2. I say this only to give you an idea of where I am coming from with my thoughts. Now onto the topic at hand. When I first started playing GW2 I was amazed at the amount of diversity and options available. There seemed to be a playstyle to suit everyone which felt amazing. Of course I got to level 80 only to be told "you must play the meta, or else" with the meta being a very very few select builds that are accepted for each game type. Now I know there are many players who don't follow the meta, but there seem to be more meta-obsessives in this community than in any other gaming community I've known(which is strange considering how little time you've had dps meters and raids available compared to other mmorpgs). I'm not going to lie, it is very frustrating to go into a game and be told to play a certain way no matter what. Here's a little example of what I mean:

"If you play a Guardian in fractals you have to go condi dps""if you play a Mesmer you have to go Chrono""Don't take a healing Elementalist, use a Druid instead"

And the list goes on and on. Now, if there is 1 thing I learned when I played LoL it was that unless you were playing at a professional level, pure skill will beat the meta builds every time, and that you are more likely to do well playing a non-meta pick you enjoy, than a meta pick you don't enjoy. What this means for GW2 is that unless you are in the Legendary league of sPvP or are looking to break speed records in the raids, you don't need the meta. Now of course if you enjoy playing the meta builds there is nothing stopping you, but telling someone to play a style they don't like just because it's the "meta" is very petty and obnoxious in my opinion. The other main issue at work here is that I don't think a lot of people understand the difference between something being viable, and being in the meta. "Meta" stands for "Most Effective Tactic Available", meaning the very best of the best. Does that mean other things cannot work? Of course it doesn't. On the other hand, viable simply means something that works for the given situation. So for example, Chrono Mesmer is a meta pick for high end PvE, but just because a Firebrand Guardian isn't quite as good doesn't mean it isn't still viable. It can work, just not quite as well. Does that mean we shouldn't use Support Guardians in high end PvE? Absolutely not. On the other hand, an unviable build would be something like trying to do a condi Mesmer build using only a Greatsword. That is something that will never work no matter how good you are because you will never apply any conditions with that weapon (unless you have sigils attached).

So the question is, why have the meta at all? Well if you want to play at the very top of the standings then I agree the meta is the way to go, but this might only apply to perhaps 1-2% of the total playerbase. Is the meta still useful to the other 98%? Yes, but only as a guide. The meta gives you an insight into the thought process of the top players, and it can help new players put their foot in the door without feeling overwhelmed. It can give you a starting point from which to develop your own playstyle from. The meta therefore should be used as a guide to help you find the path, not be the be-all and end-all of the game. No average player should feel forced into playing the meta, especially if the builds in question are uncomfortable for them to play. At the end of the day this is a game and if you don't enjoy playing it, there is no point in playing at all.

So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Getting some backlash for my original title, so I've changed it. Now we can actually discuss the topic at hand without getting offended too much.

Your post has zero context which makes it kinda nonsense in the first place. POST A VIDEO OF A FRACTAL CM WITH ARCDPS ON, let the people see for themselvers the performance of whatever build u are playing . THEN complain about stuff such as people asking for meta classes and optimized builds.

And yet the amount of thumbs up I've received on my post in the short amount of time it's been up tells me that people agree with my assessment, and that meta elitism is a problem in this game. Even just glancing at the forums, when people make threads with titles like "Build Help. No meta please" that tells me there is something wrong. Also, your opinion on what is considered "viable" seems to be quite simplistic. There is far more to a build's worth than raw dps, especially in a game like GW2 where gameplay is so reliant on boons.

1. Logical fallacy: bandwagon. The fact some people agree with you doesn't make you right.
2. It's a MMO, it has a lot of players. It's easy to find few dozens that will agree with pretty much any complaint. The amount of thumbs is insignificant compared to the size of the playerbase.
3. Your own grasp of the meta seems to be rather simplistic. It covers boons, dps, healing AND mechanics. And yes, when it comes to dps, it's pretty much the only relevant factor. Nobody cares if you're capable of generating your own might, cuz guess what, the supports max it on the whole party. Nobody cares if you have tons of vigor, cuz guess what, good chronos distort the attacks that would interrupt or endanger you while the good healers outheal the damage you take. For the same reason nobody cares if you give an accidental party heal as well. And just in the same way, good dpses focus on their thing and deal triple the dps a random "there's far more to a build's worth than raw dps" build. And it all comes together exactly because the builds are specialized and work together. Take something away and you break the efficiency of the whole party. Regardless if it's poor uptime on a specific boon, lack of distort, heals, or poor dps.

[Lunateric.3708]

I find it funny how game profiles polarize people so much (specially in the west) and meta-sheep versus special snowflake arguments happen so often. Both approaches can exist and will exist no matter what, it's a live and let live situation like with most differences with human beings.

[Lanhelin.3480]

Meta-builds are meant for groups where everybody else plays a meta-build too. All the sites with meta-builds also mention the weaknesses, and these often refer to benefits other meta-builds provide, like Alacrity. Efficiency in this case doesn't mean self-efficiency but group-efficiency.A meta-player probably also would experience hard times, if he plays in a group where everyone else doesn't play a meta - just like a viable-build player in a meta-group.

My solution is to not join meta-groups, if I don't like to play this way. E.g. I do not like Chronomancer gameplay at all. Though it hardly is killable, it feels weak and I prefer other utilities over the wells.On the other hand I also wouldn't recommend meta-builds to players on the forums, which happens a lot because it's easier to link meta-build-sites than examining what the players need, except they plan to play in a meta-raid exclusively. For all other stuff other "non-dependent-on-other-meta-builds"-builds are much less problematic and imho more efficient.

[mercury ranique.2170]

There are two sides to it. I do believe there are three kind of people.1: Players who don't have much clue about how builds work at all2: players using builds copied from a website3: players who maybe take inspiration from a website build, but know what they are doing and tweak their build themselfes AND test it.

I think I fall into category 3. Shortly after PoF I decided to switch back to engineer and make her a holosmith. I started with making my own build and then compared it to a build on meta battle. It was for 80% the same. I did use some of these advices to tweak it, but others I did not (some protection I didn't feel I needed). So now it is about 90% the same. I did tested it first in a story mode AC and a Explorable mode AC before using it in e.g. fractals.

The issue with the list above is that people in category 2 often don't have the skills to see if people in category 3 are making the right choices. Pug's are pugs and when things go bad, people will often blame the one who didnt followed meta. This leads to a believe that anything not meta is bad.

[Draco.9480]

It's because there's no balance between the classes and builds in PvE. look at WoW. all DPS specs are used and good, it's matter of taste there and maybe tiny differences that no one really cares. in WoW ya can be a strong DPS on any DPS spec as long as ya have the skill. in GW2 ya only have DH, Holo, Weaver as Power and most cases better Weaver. In DoT builds ya only have the option for FB,Weaver,Mirage, SB Renegade, DD and that's all. For support ya only have Druid DoT and Healer(most cases shouldn't be used cuz fractals needs DoT druid, healer in fracs just leeches), BS/CPS for other buffs as support and damage and Chrono as the main carry in Fractals and Raids. that's the only option ya have cuz everything else is just bad. I wish I could compete weavers with a power reaper or compete with mirage/renegades with a Scourge as DoT Spec.

[Shirlias.8104]

@mercury ranique.2170 said:There are two sides to it. I do believe there are three kind of people.1: Players who don't have much clue about how builds work at all2: players using builds copied from a website3: players who maybe take inspiration from a website build, but know what they are doing and tweak their build themselfes AND test it.

I think I fall into category 3. Shortly after PoF I decided to switch back to engineer and make her a holosmith. I started with making my own build and then compared it to a build on meta battle. It was for 80% the same. I did use some of these advices to tweak it, but others I did not (some protection I didn't feel I needed). So now it is about 90% the same. I did tested it first in a story mode AC and a Explorable mode AC before using it in e.g. fractals.

The issue with the list above is that people in category 2 often don't have the skills to see if people in category 3 are making the right choices. Pug's are pugs and when things go bad, people will often blame the one who didnt followed meta. This leads to a believe that anything not meta is bad.

I disagree.There are 2 kind of situation mostly

First Situation

Players part of a guild, which raid together, in a friendly way, and manage week after week ( try after try ) to improve, maybe adjusting their strategy, and finally take down the boss.

Here we have

• A friendly environement
• Affinity with the other members
• Vocal chat and sinergy with the strategy itself ( if there are changes, they are decided by the group of person itself ). You will probably try to fill the slot you are supposed to play at the best you can ( meta build, knowing mechanics and rotations, etc ).
• No problem on Wipes ( since you can try the day or the week after, and it's something which bring ofc frustration, but also the desire to improve and achieve a specific goal altogether ).

Second Situation

Players which Join ( or make up ) a PUG squad in order to make a raid. Most of the people are completely strangers, and the more the raid fails the more the frustration.

Here we have

• A friendly environement UNTIL THE RAID GOES WELL
• No affinity
• Not necessarily vocal chat and probably a raw strategy ( since the classes could be different time after time ) though the bosses mechanics are always the same
• Wipes perceived in a bad way, which brings the player to be frustrated ( if you are also a duckhead you will probably start to flame, being toxic towards your fellas ).

Now, in the first situation you could probably play a different build or bring a total stranger ( guilds sell raids, which means they can easily do the content with 1 player less ). You could also achieve a goal with a less efficient build because the teamplay is good.

In the second situation you can't rely on sinergy and habits, so it should be a priority for those who want to try to bring the most efficient and High reward/Low risk class/build/equip they can. This because you don't know who you are going to play with, so at least the squad formation must be impeccable.Your team priority MUST be to reduce the risk to the minimum.

That said player can ask to join, make their own team and so on.But feeling rejected because a group of total strangers which bring a specific well made build in order to be super efficient don't want to risk by inviting players who have a different build, it's simply selfish.

The best you can do is set up your own team and searching for players whatever the spec.If you don't and still pretend to be accepted with that build, you are simply saying

I don't want to learn a specific build, i don't care if they want a meta, i want to be carried by other players and meanwhile play the build i want.

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

I know WvW, fractals, dungeons and raids. I don't do PvP. I am mostly a PvE player. I play since beta. I can only tell about my own experience: In dungeons, meta events, fractals up to level 20 and WvW, I have never been rejected due to my build and equipment. Never ever. And I have never witnessed that either. So, seriously, I believe all the players who say that they have been rejected due to their builds, but personally, I have never witnessed that.

As for how I think about meta-builds: I believe that the requirement - or not - for meta builds has to be judged differently depending on activities. This below is my very personal opinion:

• For fractals: Meta builds help, but, whatever build well optimized and well managed works well too, as long as the player knows the mechanism of the concerned fractal and have the required agony resistance level. This is more what is required there. Aside of that, there are special cases where it becomes different: When the team is going into a level for a specific objective, else than doing the level. Typical exemple: Level 40 farming. Then, in order to be straight and efficient, the team requires specific members. But in that special case, it is indicated in the party offer, so it does not disturb anybody I believe. We can simply choose another team going there to do the level and with no specific requirement.
• For Dungeons: Again, there, no specific builds or classes needed as long as the objective is to do path completion only. However, like in fractals, if the team has a specific objective additional to path completion, then it can be that the party offer asks specific classes so the team does match for that special objective. But again, in that case, it is said in the party offer generally.
• For WvW: I make a difference between two modes of playing there. Capturing objectives or Fight against enemies. My own experience is that for capturing objectives while being part of a zerg, nobody care - at all - about what build & equipment we have. I do WvW really often, and I have never ever seen anyone being kicked off a zerg due to his/her build & equipment. On the other hand, for PPK (points per kill), it is a different, simply because it needs a team well organized, with different roles into it, to support a strategy. When doing that, a meta build will be a big support, alone to help feeling more comfortable and stay longer alive. However, from what I experience, PPK mode is rarely with a zerg. That's more an activity with guild squads specialized to do that and training regularly with their own members. So I don't believe it is a trouble. People who join those squads are there because they want it like that and if they take external members, that's because they know they match properly.
• For raids: Due to degree of difficulty and mechanism to be known, it needs a well build up team with necessary classes and each of the team contributing properly as required. I know the activity only from inside raiding guilds who organize once a week training session and experienced session. Yes, they recommend meta builds. In my case, I could really see the difference when swapping for the same toon from one build to another. It was really better after that, for myself and for them. So they had my full cooperation for those builds. For me, it was part of the learning process. Raid is a completely different activity with its own requirements. It needs commitment, regular training and learning. I think it is hardly possible to go for that activity in a casual manner. I therefore don't believe that going into raids via party offer is a good idea.
• PvE: I use my own builds, everywhere, for every of my toons. None has to do with meta builds, or if so, it is a coincidence, like when I use my WvW toon for mad king labyrinth farming. :)

[ChrisLew.5492]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:This is because there is no auto group feature in gw2, this is why groups are so elitist, if they added auto grouping nobody would care and the dungeons would still get completed.

yeah but you cant really make autogrouping here, as when you need healer, or buffer or tank in some encounters, you cant really tell how to code it; in games like WoW roles are tied to specs, in GW2 roles are tied to metabattle

It’s as simple as selecting a role when you queue. Same as ESO does it with a soft-Trinity system. The arguments against auto-grouping in this day and age don’t hold weight, when the practice is so ubiquitous and functioning just fine (yes, you get trolls and afkers and people who have to walk their dogs in normal LFG, too).

[TexZero.7910]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:This is because there is no auto group feature in gw2, this is why groups are so elitist, if they added auto grouping nobody would care and the dungeons would still get completed.

No. Even in games where auto grouping exist, toxicity thrives.

[Biff.5312]

I've never understood this rigid adherence to 'meta'. The whole idea of the professions in GW2 seems to be that none of them is designed to play just one role and be better at it than any alternative. The point is versatility, to have fun and explore possibilities. People who adhere to someone else's build and gear plan just to maximize dps are the same people who treat these games like a job.

[Genesis.5169]

OP is kinda right this is not the type of game that supposed to have a rigid meta, by designer and by difficulty of fights. I think the elitism here on face is retarded due to the type of MMO this is. The average end game content like CMs, don't hold a candle like the end game of FF14/TERA yet the community is like a billion times more intolerant. It truly perplexes me to this day.

[Shirlias.8104]

@Genesis.5169 said:OP is kinda right this is not the type of game that supposed to have a rigid meta, by designer and by difficulty of fights. I think the elitism here on face is kitten due to the type of MMO this is. The average end game content like CMs, don't hold a candle like the end game of FF14/TERA yet the community is like a billion times more intolerant. It truly perplexes me to this day.

Because they want to be sure to take the easiest path above everything else?It's pretty common in both games and reality.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@apharma.3741 said:There’s 2 aspects to meta, there’s a comp and then there’s the actual nitty gritty details down to class and skills.

A meta comp will generally provide the most efficient way to cover the needed mechanics and buffs/debuffs/heals if needed. A non meta comp may over compensate or just be less efficient, doing a little less damage in one area but can make for much easier and smoother runs, generally they have built in redundancy.

If you get down to classes specifically and roles, that’s where things get toxic, the biggest issue is we have some aspects that are done by some classes far better than others or 1 class provides so much you end up losing far more not having them than having them. The 2 biggest offenders (assuming raids and fractals) are chrono and druid, where no other class can provide the alacrity, variety of boon upkeep, quickness and mechanic bypassing of the former and no other class can stack to 25 might as easily while bringing unique buffs, providing essential boons and healing the group all at the same time.

However in terms of dps it largely doesn’t matter, I’d probably have a massive frown on my face if I had 5 people turn up on dps mirage outside of cairn and Matthias but generally I don’t care so long as you do good damage. I don’t even care what build you play as long as you are doing good damage, play Sw/D weaver if you like, don’t give a fluff unless you end up doing 15k and everyone else is double that.

Actually I just read some of the OPs responses, forget all that, here’s a saying: when you point a finger at someone else there’s three more pointing at you.

Yes it does seem to be the Chrono and Druid that cause the most problems, as they appear to be the 2 classes that are irreplaceable in raids. Can that change? Possibly but it would require not only a rebalancing of the classes but a redesigning of the raid encounters. Also which responses are you referring to exactly?

During PoF beta, I did point out how dissapointing it was that they didn't offer an alternative to chrono for alacrity. Didn't see many others bringing this point up.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

I think one of the problems we have to address in this is the size of the playerbase. It's all very well saying "find a different group to play with" but to do that there need to be players in the first place. WoW, even at it's lowest point has over 4 million subscribers, and is currently sitting at around 10 million if you believe the rumours. With that many active players you will always be able to find like-minded people to group with. That is not the case with GW2 and so compromises need to be made in the community. I'm not against people who want to speed run or min-max their builds to the most optimal, but it seems that people are insisting on the meta regardless of the content they are doing. There was 1 particular occasion where I joined a group who had previously said that they have no interest in speed running fractals and being "hardcore" players, and yet insisted that I play to the meta in order to group with them. That just didn't make any sense to me at all.1) If you believe the "rumours" as in the latest numbers from Arena Net, there's 11 million players in GW2 (

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-path-to-the-desert-in-numbers/

)2) Are you kidding me? You make it sound like the servers are empty... There's always a ton of LFG parties, and the vast majority don't ask for meta builds. If you're having trouble finding a party... Well i can't tell you what it is, but you have a problem somewhere man.3) About that example... If everyone else is wrong, maybe they're not the ones that are wrong?

I think a lot of whatever number they publish are coming from SEA. I gotta say I don't see anything like that in NA. Whenever I look at the raid lfg, cause I'm a pug, it's just filled with raids for sale or maybe a recruitment group.

[Genesis.5169]

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:OP is kinda right this is not the type of game that supposed to have a rigid meta, by designer and by difficulty of fights. I think the elitism here on face is kitten due to the type of MMO this is. The average end game content like CMs, don't hold a candle like the end game of FF14/TERA yet the community is like a billion times more intolerant. It truly perplexes me to this day.

Because they want to be sure to take the easiest path above everything else?It's pretty common in both games and reality.

Not to the degree of what i see in gw2. And every time i try to debate this with other people they just get even more entrenched in there beliefs. Just spend some time in another mmo and touch the post game there's a vast difference but this community and the other AAA titles this a bit a dissonance with the population and what the game is over here for example people here treat Escort like its a super hard mission demanding perfect composition etc, in ff escort would be like steps of faith in ff14 when it first released which i can tell you was murderous and atleast 2x harder then escort yet the vast majority of the game didn't go and make perfect comp teams, and most times did not even follow the meta because it wasn't an extreme mode or savage etc. Here the raiding community treats everything like its a cm and again in terms of difficulty between games gw2 has no justification for its attitude towards the playerbase.

Granted i have no way how to solve this issue other then getting every raider to play another mmo for a long period of time.