Grenade Auto Attack.

[Zuko.7132]

I'm a war and these things are hitting for almost 4k on me. How is this an acceptable autoattack? Dying to autos is dumb.

Nerf the auto. Give scrapper some buffs. Nade is the issue, not scrapper.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Zuko.7132

[bethekey.8314]

Screenshot / video with your debuffs and their buffs or it didn't happen.

Zerker amulet, Big Boomer 10% buff, with some might + vuln on Heavy Golem = 700 - 900 critical hit per nade, depending on might and vuln

That's <3000 damage, in a good scenario where everything crits + hits (there's random spread on nades), on an aimed (more skill involved than most autos), projectile (hard countered), and specifically traited (basically unusable without), damage kit (not much utility), necessary to make up for Engi's loss of a second weapon set.

Edited May 26, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[shion.2084]

2 hours ago, Zuko.7132 said:

I'm a war and these things are hitting for almost 4k on me. How is this an acceptable autoattack? Dying to autos is dumb.

Nerf the auto. Give scrapper some buffs. Nade is the issue, not scrapper.

Shoot the engi back with your 13K unblockable gunflame…. Twice if you need to.  Or run blade sworn and a decent one just won’t die.

Edited May 26, 2023 by shion.2084

[Myror.7521]

@Zuko.7132 not gonna lie grenade kit is indeed too good in its state. Especialy cause engi itself could mightstack himself plus vuln enemys pretty ezy and fast (thats cause @bethekey.8314 a vid is indeed not rly needed here). So yes it could hit per AA chain with Something around 1-4k (depending on amount of might and vulnerabipity and of course if grenades doesnt spreat that hard. (The Problem is the KIT and not the class/e-spec itself so pls ..... don't Nerf scrapper again ..... Thx!!!)

 

I mean you know a Kit is too good when a whole e-spec goes nerfed cause of it dealing too hard dps out of range and stealth....

However at least against grenades you could use projectile hate skills for example Block, some auras, gunsaber 4, Ranger Axe 5 and stuff. But yea they could eziliy outrun ya so you waste those stuff to try to get near him.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Kuma.1503]

There it is. It's been too long without a nerf engi thread. 

I was starting to get worried. 

[felix.2386]

yea, it's completely unplayable as pure melee warrior against these busted nades.

when both moving at the same speed they can just aa you till death and you can't touch them.

Edited May 27, 2023 by felix.2386

[Myror.7521]

@felix.2386 when it comes to PvP. The Trick is. Not run straight though him or at least not in a straigth Line. Use you projectile hate to capture his Point. Use your CC skills and pressure him so he need to sweap out off the Kit to survive. Outside of all this you could also use walls n stuff xd. Just many ways to survive. The only Situation when its Just Impossible is a plus one by him, a Teamfight while he not get targed, a instand burst out off stealth. Rest should be your favor matchup tho. (At least when it comes to on node Fights)

[bethekey.8314]

45 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

a vid is indeed not rly needed here

Sure, just a screenshot would do. But with hard evidence, how could people make ridiculous claims anymore?

45 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

vulnerabipity

I'm using this from now on.

[Zuko.7132]

7 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Screenshot / video with your debuffs and their buffs or it didn't happen.

Zerker amulet, Big Boomer 10% buff, with some might + vuln on Heavy Golem = 700 - 900 critical hit per nade, depending on might and vuln

That's <3000 damage, in a good scenario where everything crits + hits (there's random spread on nades), on an aimed (more skill involved than most autos), projectile (hard countered), and specifically traited (basically unusable without), damage kit (not much utility), necessary to make up for Engi's loss of a second weapon set.

It was 3.75k. Three hits so all landed and crit. I don't constantly record myself. If you don't believe me, that's your call. Scrapper obviously had might from blast gyro and scrapper applies it's own vuln quite easily. The grenade auto has .99 coefficient if all hit. That's also ranged and aoe. An almost 1 coefficient is ridiculous for an auto. Just compare it to any other auto chain and you'll see.

Forgot to mention, you can throw it behind you too, so you can chunk melee classes with no danger.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Zuko.7132

[Stalima.5490]

12 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Sure, just a screenshot would do. But with hard evidence, how could people make ridiculous claims anymore?

I'm using this from now on.

This isn't a rediculous claim and I do not think evidence is even neccesary, as someone who plays engi mainly this isn't even the extent of the grenade kits damage because it also applys 3 stacks of 1.5% damage vulnerabiliy with each use of the grenade auto so 4k isn't even as high as the grenades will go at their height.

You can likely hit for 3.2k a pop by literally just slotting a berserker amulet and selecting explosives/grenadier(for wider nades) and just racking up the free triple vulnerability stacks

The bomb kit is able to hit even harder but is alot easier to play around and avoid

Edited May 27, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[Waffles.5632]

The fact that you can throw them behind you is the biggest offender IMO. Would like to see that treatment on some Mesmer abilities tbh. They changed arcane thievery way back when to require face targeting, but somehow engi nades are still okay..

[bethekey.8314]

12 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

This isn't a rediculous claim and I do not think evidence is even neccesary, as someone who plays engi mainly this isn't even the extent of the grenade kits damage because it also applys 3 stacks of 1.5% damage vulnerabiliy with each use of the grenade auto so 4k isn't even as high as the grenades will go at their height.

You can likely hit for 3.2k a pop by literally just slotting a berserker amulet and selecting explosives/grenadier(for wider nades) and just racking up the free triple vulnerability stacks

The bomb kit is able to hit even harder but is alot easier to play around and avoid

Well as someone who actually went and tested it on a Heavy Golem, the 4000 figure is overblown. I'm not sure I ever broke 1000 per critical nade (3000 total). Then again, I hadn't yet stacked up 15+ vuln on the target.

Are we balancing around what's possible in the best case, unlikely scenario now? What kind of strategy is that? I say if the Warrior ate 5+ nade autos, then the Engi stacked might, the Engi deserves to hit a big auto and the Warrior deserves to be low for it.

These claims aren't helpful to the game, and neither is your backing of them.

Edited May 28, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Zuko.7132]

14 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Well as someone who actually went and tested it on a Heavy Golem, the 4000 figure is overblown. I'm not sure I ever broke 1000 per critical nade (3000 total). Then again, I hadn't yet stacked up 15+ vuln on the target.

Are we balancing around what's possible in the best case, unlikely scenario now? What kind of strategy is that? I say if the Warrior ate 5+ nade autos, then the Engi stacked might, the Engi deserves to hit a big auto and the Warrior deserves to be low for it.

These claims aren't helpful to the game, and neither is your backing of them.

I was hit by exactly one auto in this scenario. Blast gyro and grenade barrage from stealth already applies 7 stacks of 150% effective vulnerability and gives you 140 additional ferocity followed up by shrapnel while stunned for another 3 vuln and bring you to 200 additional ferocity and 10 vuln equating to 15% increased damage. I was not eating autos. The might stacking occurs by pressing a single button, blast gyro.

[Stalima.5490]

On 5/28/2023 at 2:31 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

Well as someone who actually went and tested it on a Heavy Golem, the 4000 figure is overblown. I'm not sure I ever broke 1000 per critical nade (3000 total). Then again, I hadn't yet stacked up 15+ vuln on the target.

Are we balancing around what's possible in the best case, unlikely scenario now? What kind of strategy is that? I say if the Warrior ate 5+ nade autos, then the Engi stacked might, the Engi deserves to hit a big auto and the Warrior deserves to be low for it.

These claims aren't helpful to the game, and neither is your backing of them.

really? and what exactly does this warrior get to stop an engineer off to the side of combat spam throwing the 1 key into the fight, keep in mind we are talking about scrapper here and not holo, unlike holo the scrapper can just snap his fingers and send his might instantly soaring, pair that with the now use of explosives/tools traitlines as opposed to explosives/alchemy and it is now doing alot more damage than it used to even without that might.

 

But there is another factor you are not paying attention to and that is the possibility for:

Grenade: 0.33 x 3 damage

Explosive entrance: 0.9 damage

aim assisted rocket: 0.5 damage

 

This more or less allows the scrapper to appear and instantly drop 2.39 damage ratio into you at the start of a fight without you being to interact with them at all and this is not even using grenade barrage which would increase that ratio to 3.38.

 

To iterate, the rocket from the rocket turret only has a 2.25 power ratio and has been known to crit for 19k in ideal circumstances and easily and frequently drops 10k damage without any vuln.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[wasss.1208]

18 hours ago, Zuko.7132 said:

I was hit by exactly one auto in this scenario. Blast gyro and grenade barrage from stealth already applies 7 stacks of 150% effective vulnerability and gives you 140 additional ferocity followed up by shrapnel while stunned for another 3 vuln and bring you to 200 additional ferocity and 10 vuln equating to 15% increased damage. I was not eating autos. The might stacking occurs by pressing a single button, blast gyro.

I played out this scenario several times against a heavy golem. Over the several attempts, my highest hit on an individual grenade, was 1140, the highest damage of a full auto, after the Sneak Gyro, Blast Gyro, Barrage, Shrapnel was 1111+1126+1140=3377
I did use the build from Hardstuck, (explo tools scrapper) and needed several tries, to get each 3 'nades to crit, because this build is only running with 52,61% (+fury) crit chance.

I also tested a few possibilities: If the Scrapper slots in Elixir B for example, it'll have enough might to reach 1350-1380 'nade autos, making that 4k hit possible. And Elixir B can be precasted in stealth, while running up to the enemy. But that means, that the Scrapper gave up an utility, to make its opening burst stronger, and will be lacking during an another point in the fight.

So: you were either hit by more skills, than what you say here, the scrapper had outside help, or it was running an off-meta build.
 

On 5/27/2023 at 5:36 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

The fact that you can throw them behind you is the biggest offender IMO.

This is the solution to most of grenades problems. Rework autos, so they act like actual autos, so you can't just throw them behind you, or aoe spam the capture point... Honestly, just rework 'nade kit at this point, make it a proper condi or power kit, and not this inbetween, that gets broken every time might generation gets out of hand.

[Zuko.7132]

6 hours ago, wasss.1208 said:

I played out this scenario several times against a heavy golem. Over the several attempts, my highest hit on an individual grenade, was 1140, the highest damage of a full auto, after the Sneak Gyro, Blast Gyro, Barrage, Shrapnel was 1111+1126+1140=3377
I did use the build from Hardstuck, (explo tools scrapper) and needed several tries, to get each 3 'nades to crit, because this build is only running with 52,61% (+fury) crit chance.

I also tested a few possibilities: If the Scrapper slots in Elixir B for example, it'll have enough might to reach 1350-1380 'nade autos, making that 4k hit possible. And Elixir B can be precasted in stealth, while running up to the enemy. But that means, that the Scrapper gave up an utility, to make its opening burst stronger, and will be lacking during an another point in the fight.

So: you were either hit by more skills, than what you say here, the scrapper had outside help, or it was running an off-meta build.
 

This is the solution to most of grenades problems. Rework autos, so they act like actual autos, so you can't just throw them behind you, or aoe spam the capture point... Honestly, just rework 'nade kit at this point, make it a proper condi or power kit, and not this inbetween, that gets broken every time might generation gets out of hand.

They were likely running object in motion or takedown round or both.

[Stalima.5490]

On 5/29/2023 at 11:42 AM, wasss.1208 said:

I played out this scenario several times against a heavy golem. Over the several attempts, my highest hit on an individual grenade, was 1140, the highest damage of a full auto, after the Sneak Gyro, Blast Gyro, Barrage, Shrapnel was 1111+1126+1140=3377
I did use the build from Hardstuck, (explo tools scrapper) and needed several tries, to get each 3 'nades to crit, because this build is only running with 52,61% (+fury) crit chance.

I also tested a few possibilities: If the Scrapper slots in Elixir B for example, it'll have enough might to reach 1350-1380 'nade autos, making that 4k hit possible. And Elixir B can be precasted in stealth, while running up to the enemy. But that means, that the Scrapper gave up an utility, to make its opening burst stronger, and will be lacking during an another point in the fight.

So: you were either hit by more skills, than what you say here, the scrapper had outside help, or it was running an off-meta build.

Well there's your problem right there, the heavy golem has alot better toughness than the vast majority of players who won't even be to slot even 1 point of toughness since they removed almost all the toughness sets, if you're hitting a marauder you're basically just hitting a light golem but with more health.

 

Attacking the heavy is like specifically for determining how fast you can kill a bunker build and not the average enemy.

[Zuko.7132]

On 5/29/2023 at 3:42 AM, wasss.1208 said:

I played out this scenario several times against a heavy golem. Over the several attempts, my highest hit on an individual grenade, was 1140, the highest damage of a full auto, after the Sneak Gyro, Blast Gyro, Barrage, Shrapnel was 1111+1126+1140=3377
I did use the build from Hardstuck, (explo tools scrapper) and needed several tries, to get each 3 'nades to crit, because this build is only running with 52,61% (+fury) crit chance.

I also tested a few possibilities: If the Scrapper slots in Elixir B for example, it'll have enough might to reach 1350-1380 'nade autos, making that 4k hit possible. And Elixir B can be precasted in stealth, while running up to the enemy. But that means, that the Scrapper gave up an utility, to make its opening burst stronger, and will be lacking during an another point in the fight.

So: you were either hit by more skills, than what you say here, the scrapper had outside help, or it was running an off-meta build.
 

This is the solution to most of grenades problems. Rework autos, so they act like actual autos, so you can't just throw them behind you, or aoe spam the capture point... Honestly, just rework 'nade kit at this point, make it a proper condi or power kit, and not this inbetween, that gets broken every time might generation gets out of hand.

Ya, just looked it up. Heavy Golem has 2597 armor.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Nade kit is fine, can we not? This is like... the fourth time, and the last time they took superspeed down. It's even easier to play around now.

Quote

 if the Warrior ate 5+ nade autos, then the Engi stacked might, the Engi deserves to hit a big auto and the Warrior deserves to be low for it.

This is objectively correct. Don't eat bombs. They're unhealthy.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Stalima.5490]

13 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Nade kit is fine, can we not? This is like... the fourth time, and the last time they took superspeed down. It's even easier to play around now.

This is objectively correct. Don't eat bombs. They're unhealthy.

 

They already officially confirmed the grenade auto is not fine by nerfing the rifle auto

[bethekey.8314]

@wasss.1208 Thanks for testing too.

On 5/29/2023 at 12:27 AM, Stalima.5490 said:

 

But there is another factor you are not paying attention to and that is the possibility for:

If the total damage a class is doing is too high, that's one issue. If nade auto is hitting too hard, specifically, like the OP called out, that's a separate issue. You don't necessarily nerf nades, again, because a bunch of passives are boosting overall damage. I'm addressing what the OP claimed.

On 5/29/2023 at 12:27 AM, Stalima.5490 said:

To iterate, the rocket from the rocket turret only has a 2.25 power ratio and has been known to crit for 19k in ideal circumstances and easily and frequently drops 10k damage without any vuln.

I'd wager I've played rocket turret Engi more than almost anyone else in sPvP the past year. On a zerker, pretty glass build, I rarely hit over 10k. Typical hits are 7-9k. Highest was maybe 13k? Realistic vs ideal matters. Big numbers are cool, but if your build sucks, you'll get farmed for it. Thankfully, balance occurs more at the realistic level.

I've been burst for 20k+ by Rangers, Warriors, Thieves, Mesmers etc. that all had more consistent setups.

23 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Attacking the heavy is like specifically for determining how fast you can kill a bunker build and not the average enemy.

Not really. Simply running a Demo amulet puts Warrior at or above the Heavy Golem armor. Total health doesn't matter in evaluating how hard something hits. And bunkers often utilize boons or active defenses instead of straight soaking damage. Protection alone probably makes most classes tankier than the Heavy Golem.

Edited May 31, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[bethekey.8314]

On 5/27/2023 at 8:36 AM, Waffles.5632 said:

The fact that you can throw them behind you is the biggest offender IMO. Would like to see that treatment on some Mesmer abilities tbh. They changed arcane thievery way back when to require face targeting, but somehow engi nades are still okay..

On 5/29/2023 at 3:42 AM, wasss.1208 said:

This is the solution to most of grenades problems. Rework autos, so they act like actual autos, so you can't just throw them behind you, or aoe spam the capture point... Honestly, just rework 'nade kit at this point, make it a proper condi or power kit, and not this inbetween, that gets broken every time might generation gets out of hand.

I'm inclined to agree, but ground targeted AoEs are more awkward to have cone (LoS) restrictions. I think it's not as clear what can and can't hit. Arcane thievery is a targeted skill, yes?

[Stalima.5490]

21 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

@wasss.1208 Thanks for testing too.

If the total damage a class is doing is too high, that's one issue. If nade auto is hitting too hard, specifically, like the OP called out, that's a separate issue. You don't necessarily nerf nades, again, because a bunch of passives are boosting overall damage. I'm addressing what the OP claimed.

I'd wager I've played rocket turret Engi more than almost anyone else in sPvP the past year. On a zerker, pretty glass build, I rarely hit over 10k. Typical hits are 7-9k. Highest was maybe 13k? Realistic vs ideal matters. Big numbers are cool, but if your build sucks, you'll get farmed for it. Thankfully, balance occurs more at the realistic level.

I've been burst for 20k+ by Rangers, Warriors, Thieves, Mesmers etc. that all had more consistent setups.

Not really. Simply running a Demo amulet puts Warrior at or above the Heavy Golem armor. Total health doesn't matter in evaluating how hard something hits. And bunkers often utilize boons or active defenses instead of straight soaking damage. Protection alone probably makes most classes tankier than the Heavy Golem.

yes, and the nade auto is comparable to the pre nerf rifle auto and thus if that was op then the grenade one is too.

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

yes, and the nade auto is comparable to the pre nerf rifle auto and thus if that was op then the grenade one is too.

If your idea of balance ignores all other facets of skills apart from raw damage, then I hope you never go into game design.

[Kuma.1503]

13 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

They already officially confirmed the grenade auto is not fine by nerfing the rifle auto

Rifle auto had more range, can't miss, and doesn't consume a utility slot. 

It was also overnerfed due to community backlash.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Kuma.1503