June 9th Thief Balance Patch Preview Discussion (The original thread)

[Shade.8971]

Not to mention gw2 UI is horrible for single target. Not being able to move the raid frame is a big factor.

[Voraxen.2035]

delete

Edited June 10, 2023 by Voraxen.2035

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Sc/d endless twilight still cant hit targeted allies if it's bodyblocked...this patch preview for speters would be amazing if they fixed it

[Parasite.5389]

Quote

• Shallow Grave: This trait has been reworked. It now causes Siphon to transfer conditions to a targeted enemy or remove conditions from the specter and their targeted ally.

we already have the trait, it's called Hungering Darkness.
so we're removing a safety net/heal ability,  getting a second Condi cleanse traits on the SAME spec?

[kash.9213]

I like that Endless Stamina. Seems intuitive for how Acro builds will roll out. Not sure if it will compete with other traits anywhere though.

The Alacrity and Well change should feel more natural and moving and should be more clutch responsive.

The small spread out from our Tether should vibe with those other changes. I guess pve must be super cluttered but I don't have a problem with single target in WvW blobs. Action Cam is tricky with it until you lean how to hover for the character profile highlight.

I already use Shadestep so that's nice. That's still a hard decision though giving up that reliable Tether condi clear. Serious bummer if it's losing it's current features though.

The other changes sound alright but I'll have to feel them out on a lit up map.

Edited June 11, 2023 by kash.9213

[FrancisN.9276]

23 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

The acrobatics buffs + the CD reduction on impairing daggers. Impairing daggers is already a very good utility. 2 1/2 sec immob on a 15 second CD that applies poison and does 6k+ dmg is nuts

If you look at the changes for other classes, you'll see a whole lot of 20% utility skill CD reduction across the board. It works like inflation - if everyone gets buffed, the one who gets the same buff remains where they have always been and the one who doesn't is equivalent to getting nerfed.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

On 6/3/2023 at 7:15 PM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

• Endless Stamina: This trait has been reworked and renamed Fluid Strikes. It now grants the thief a damage bonus for a period of time after using a movement skill or completing a shadowstep.

This is the only one I find problematic. Acrobatics is about survivability, it's not supposed to be a source for damage boost and tying it to shadowstep makes it even worst. Shadowstep is in the realm of Shadow Arts, not Acrobatics. I'm still salty when you changed Hard to Catch to trigger on shadowstep -- it doesn't belong in Acrobatics.

You can't just squeeze a trait in there without consideration to the core design of the trait line.

Also the +50% effectiveness on Vigor is what gives Acrobatics its trait identity. If you're planning of removing Endless Stamina, at least keep this effect and move it as a passive effect for Feline Grace. This effect is vital to certain Thief playstyle.

To be honest, I'd prefer that you remove Guarded Initiation from the game (don't bother reworking this) and leave Endless Stamina alone. Then you can replace GI with Fluid Strikes -- this way the trait is not forced on the players, they can pick it if they want it.

That's all I have to say.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

12 minutes ago, Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

This is the only one I find problematic. Acrobatics is about survivability, it's not supposed to be a source for damage boost and tying it to shadowstep makes it even worst. Shadowstep is in the realm of Shadow Arts, not Acrobatics. I'm still salty when you changed Hard to Catch to trigger on shadowstep -- it doesn't belong in Acrobatics.

You can't just squeeze a trait in there without consideration to the core design of the trait line.

Also the +50% effectiveness on Vigor is what gives Acrobatics its trait identity. If you're planning of removing Endless Stamina, at least keep this effect and move it as a passive effect for Feline Grace. This effect is vital to certain Thief playstyle.

To be honest, I'd prefer that you remove Guarded Initiation from the game (don't bother reworking this) and leave Endless Stamina alone. Then you can replace GI with Fluid Strikes -- this way the trait is not forced on the players, they can pick it if they want it.

That's all I have to say.

It is important to mention that arobatics also has other skills that are related to shadow step. If we go further it is also important to mention acrobatics is a sword traitline and  sword has shadowstep baked right into it's kit.

I am pretty excited for these changes in terms of what they might look like for PvP and WvW.

[TwiceDead.1963]

All for Acrobatics finally getting some attention. Time to whip out the goold ol' S/x.

[Doggie.3184]

On 6/10/2023 at 6:40 AM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Can use on your own mini

Only for OOC Thrill of the Crime. It wont help with Shroud.

Stuff about this is in my Thief Wishlist in Signature. I've already forseen this problem and offered solutions.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

4 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Only for OOC Thrill of the Crime. It wont help with Shroud.

Stuff about this is in my Thief Wishlist in Signature. I've already forseen this problem and offered solutions.

But bloodstone food will put u in combat and is cheap

[Stompy.1387]

My staff DD feedback in video form; figured I'd post it here since the subreddit went private

 

 

[Stompy.1387]

On 6/10/2023 at 2:32 PM, Antycypator.9874 said:

Bound buff is literally "buff something to let people think we care about Daredevil".

Who cares about Bound damage? It's only there for 15% damage increase, but since it lasts only 4s, it's still terrible thing and 2x more damage to just Bound won't make Daredevil better.

Wouldn't it be better to buff whole staff AA chain? Rework some traits to move this spec from 2015 year? Do you even remember why Vindicator's dodge was reworked? Because no one likes dodging off-cd.

The Bound buff is actually something that I and other veteran staff DD players have been suggesting for a long time now. It's a very simple and intentional change, since it solves the issue that dodging is a negative action that you only do to maintain the modifier from Havoc Specialist. Now that Bound will be a DPS increase over autos, it alleviates *some* of the built in anti-synergy in the daredevil traitline where other traits giving you endurance was actually an inconvenience. It also means you won't mind nearby warriors casting "To The Limit" or other similar skills nearly as much.

 

Obviously a full rework to Havoc Specialist would be preferable, but it's a simple coefficient change that Anet was able to make without having to dedicate excessive resources to the issue while simultaneously fixing the majority of the annoyances players were feeling 

[Vornollo.5182]

Improvisation: Little bit sad, it's good for PvE (especially in light of Quickness DE), but it'll reduce playmaking potential in PvP and WvW... I get it though.

Acrobatics: Overall solid changes. Don't quite like Pain Response just being a weaker version of Ranger's "Evasive Purity"

Daredevil: Solid, makes absolute sense from a PvE point of view. Forced movement is still rather problematic on it though.
Kind of let down that they labeled the stolen skills as Daredevil though. They work like that for Core too..?

Deadeye: Not bad, quite intrigued to try it and see how viable it is between ranged and melee options. Not sure how Binding Shadow will work now since it already immobilized, anxious to see it though. I'm quite fine with them nerfing it though. Shadow Flare changes are solid for stealth-play, not too shabby at all.

Specter: Oh boy, rather let down by the reworks, I just expected more to it.
Good changes to Shroud and Scepter having a little AoE support on it. Happy to see Alacrity moved off of Wells, but bummed that now PvP and WvW Specters got no Alacrity access anymore. 

Would have loved to see some changes to the Wells themselves, make them feel more unique and impactful etc. put a stunbreak in there somewhere, make them worth taking for something other than the Alacrity, hah.
Making Siphon proc Thrill of the Crime without a target and such would be a massive help. Also rethink the -3 initiative, it's just messing with the flow of combat.
Another thing I'd love to see updated is Shadow's Refuge. The fact that it still reveals you when leaving it is just redundant at this point. Heck, people are actively using it to grief/spite groups in WvW...

So for the Specter Alacrity adjustment, I'd much rather keep the Alacrity for WvW/PvP, Protection feels more suitable flavor-wise for other support-type professions.
Especially keeping in mind the "Protect the King" theme they want to go for. Generally, the "King" in WvW especially will be a Guardian, who does a far better job at providing itself with Protection anyway. Putting more Protection on top of it... Ehhh, just doesn't really feel useful. I also just don't find Protection a thematically fitting boon for Thief.

 

Overall, good changes for Thief, stuff's moving in the right direction.
PvE changes are solid, some of the things could be improved upon for the competitive modes.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Vornollo.5182
Alacrity storytime...

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Vornollo.5182 said:

Improvisation: Little bit sad, it's good for PvE (especially in light of Quickness DE), but it'll reduce playmaking potential in PvP and WvW... I get it though.

Acrobatics: Overall solid changes. Don't quite like Pain Response just being a weaker version of Ranger's "Evasive Purity"

Daredevil: Solid, makes absolute sense from a PvE point of view. Forced movement is still rather problematic on it though.
Kind of let down that they labeled the stolen skills as Daredevil though. They work like that for Core too..?

Deadeye: Not bad, quite intrigued to try it and see how viable it is between ranged and melee options. Not sure how Binding Shadow will work now since it already immobilized, anxious to see it though. I'm quite fine with them nerfing it though. Shadow Flare changes are solid for stealth-play, not too shabby at all.

Specter: Oh boy, rather let down by the reworks, I just expected more to it.
Good changes to Shroud and Scepter having a little AoE support on it. Happy to see Alacrity moved off of Wells, but bummed that now PvP and WvW Specters got no Alacrity access anymore. 

Would have loved to see some changes to the Wells themselves, make them feel more unique and impactful etc. put a stunbreak in there somewhere, make them worth taking for something other than the Alacrity, hah.
Making Siphon proc Thrill of the Crime without a target and such would be a massive help. Also rethink the -3 initiative, it's just messing with the flow of combat.
Another thing I'd love to see updated is Shadow's Refuge. The fact that it still reveals you when leaving it is just redundant at this point. Heck, people are actively using it to grief/spite groups in WvW...

So for the Specter Alacrity adjustment, I'd much rather keep the Alacrity for WvW/PvP, Protection feels more suitable flavor-wise for other support-type professions.
Especially keeping in mind the "Protect the King" theme they want to go for. Generally, the "King" in WvW especially will be a Guardian, who does a far better job at providing itself with Protection anyway. Putting more Protection on top of it... Ehhh, just doesn't really feel useful. I also just don't find Protection a thematically fitting boon for Thief.

 

Overall, good changes for Thief, stuff's moving in the right direction.
PvE changes are solid, some of the things could be improved upon for the competitive modes.

It does sound problematic for dropping alacrity to people on siege. You can target enemy walls to build force but then I don't know if the Shroud boons are only generated while in combat or not. 

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

13 hours ago, Stompy.1387 said:

My staff DD feedback in video form; figured I'd post it here since the subreddit went private

 

 

Yeah, I really agree. Having to cancel the attack chain for the best DPS will be a pain. It's wonky.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

Quote

Ally-targeted scepter skills will now grant their effects in an area around the target, and Shadestep has been reworked to allow Shadow Shroud skills to affect multiple allies around the tethered target

I wonder about the wording for the underlined part. Does this mean that allied skills are not body blocked anymore? Or is is the same as before?

Ally body blocking introduces unpredictability. This unpredictability should be removed. Allied targeted skills should NOT be body allowed to be body blocked. Sure AOE effects around the target is great, but if it's not the intended target... well that just is frustrating.

[Vornollo.5182]

17 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

It does sound problematic for dropping alacrity to people on siege. You can target enemy walls to build force but then I don't know if the Shroud boons are only generated while in combat or not. 

You are absolutely right about that.

That said, I think it's touching on an overarching problem I have with the intuitivity of Specter (and previously Druid, to an extent Necro too). One can only gain shroud in Combat.
Now, I don't think the approach that Druid has where you just gain your resource passively, be it Shroud or Celestial Avatar or whatever, is a good idea.
Rather, why not make it possible to gain shroud by casting Siphon on an ally, or by buffing them up a bit while using up Initiative? Right now you do indeed just simply get people to stack it up by just hitting a trash-mob for a little bit anyway, or like you mentioned to cheese it on a structure.
Investing into the "normal" way of gaining shroud but now out of combat, still has you risking being low on CD's or Initiative if you're being silly about it so at least it has a bit of a downside to it of being caught off-guard.

Investing actual resources into the upkeep of a boon isn't a bad thing in my opinion. But that it's attached to cheesing it on structures and such, rather than off of allies is just a design flaw on multiple fronts.

[Bern.9613]

Binding Shadow: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvE and from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW. This skill now immobilizes marked targets instead of knocking them down.

I'm hoping someone on the "balance" team is intelligent enough to know that Binding Shadow already has immob which only works on 25% of the builds in wvw. Taking away knock down is... well asinine. Unless of course there are NPC's complaining on some forum.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Bern.9613

[Merkalto.5743]

Specter changes look neat, except the implications for Alacrity Specter:

It seems like Alac Specter (which would now be PvE only) won't be able to provide Alacrity at the start of fights anymore since it would be tied to Shroud skill usage. As Alac Specter, you'd have to either start the fight will some Shroud, which can't always be the case (e.g. EoD strikes), or you'd have to enter Shroud as early as possible by spamming Siphon and wells with the Traversing Darkness trait in order to generate enough Shroud HP so you aren't knocked out of it early. For comparison, the reason quickness from Shroud works on Harbinger is because your shroud on that spec doesn't tank hits for you.

Alac Specter would still have to take and use 2-3 wells off cooldown in order to maintain proper Shroud HP so you can provide Alacrity + not worry about getting knocked out of Shroud early... so on paper it sounds like nothing about the spec has changed except that it's harder to give Alacrity at the start of encounters.

I think the changes are a good start, but don't really seem to fix the problem of "I have to spam wells off cooldown to maintain alacrity." I wonder if a little bit of Alacrity (or Protection for PvP/WvW) could be given out to the party when using Siphon would help fix the issue of not being able to give Alacrity at the start of fights?

[Gladieth.8603]

Hi Merkalto -

Quote

won't be able to provide Alacrity at the start of fights anymore since it would be tied to Shroud skill usage

Yes, this will most likely be true, however, I wouldn't expect it to take longer than 5 to 10 seconds to generate enough shadow shroud to get the alacrity rolling for the rest of the fight.

Quote

Traversing Darkness trait in order to generate enough Shroud HP

This trait will probably become a secondary choice for DPS alac specter on June 27. Larcenous torment will probably be the better pick.

Quote

Alac Specter would still have to take and use 2-3 wells off cooldown in order to maintain proper Shroud HP

DPS alac specter will probably gain all of its shroud HP from Siphon and torment application. It will no longer have to use any wells. However, I recommend Well of Sorrow.

Anyways, I posted an entire thread on what to expect for both DPS alacrity specter and Healer Specter on June 27. Feel free to check it out!

Edited June 13, 2023 by Gladieth.8603

[bluehead.9842]

they dont give specific detail like duration/uptime/etc, (they even dont care state about how alac will be generated on the notes!) and by history, anet really hate thief class, so yes, as thief main, I will set my expectation as low as possible 

 

[Carnifex.3275]

On 6/12/2023 at 10:25 AM, Stompy.1387 said:

My staff DD feedback in video form; figured I'd post it here since the subreddit went private

 

 

ANET needs to see this before going live with the patch 🤣

I wonder what are the odds they will actually see this and do somethin about it

Edited June 14, 2023 by Carnifex.3275

[Flobings.7251]

On 6/12/2023 at 12:25 AM, Stompy.1387 said:

My staff DD feedback in video form; figured I'd post it here since the subreddit went private

 

 

LMAO this is going to be such a pain in the kitten if anet pushes these changes through.

Just keep auto chain the same, buff bound, & make it so we can keep a single bar of endurance while doing full dps. That would keep us at competitive dps while still making us dodge constantly but not getting stuck flat-footed just because we are trying to keep rotation.

[Bern.9613]

On 6/12/2023 at 3:25 AM, Stompy.1387 said:

My staff DD feedback in video form; figured I'd post it here since the subreddit went private

 

 

Never understood how smacking away at a test dummy is productive nor any kind of a benchmark. For all we know, this was the 100th attempt and this is the one time you managed to not die. Why not try your build and suggestions in wvw and see how well that works out for you.