June 27 Balance Update Preview

[Raizel.8175]

I'm very sceptical about this one. Let's dig into it:

Engineer:

I'm kinda happy about Quickness-Application being reworked, but I'm worried that Quickness-Application will be more difficult now since you obviously have far fewer skills now that will trigger Kinetic Accelerators. This in turn may lead to having to use full Divinier which in turn leads to abysmal personal DPS. I also don't really like that you are forced to use Rocket Charge due to its animation locking effect. If this is supposed to work, you do need to increase the base Quickness duration of Kinetic Accelerators drastically or else, Scrapper will be phased out of meta/being viable due to stronger existing Quickness builds.

The rework of Mechanical Genius makes Mechanist even worse than it currently. The main problem of DPS Mechanist and the Mech itself is the phenomenally bad Mech AI and how it works in actual encounters. Especially in certain fractals, the Mech just gets stuck and is unusable. The Mech just reacts far too slowly to movement commands in general. All in all, this is just a further nerf to Mechanist.

Guardian:

I still don't understand why you want to destroy Firebrand that fervently. Firebrand is a cDPS-build. It does need potentially higher DPS than pDPS-builds. Why the nerf to Master of Consecrations? In my humble opinion, your approch to balance Firebrand was wrong to begin with. What you should have done is putting the major amount of Quickness-Application into Tome of Resolve and/or Tome of Courage to create proper distinctions between varios Firebrand-builds. cDPS Firebrand "only" sits at 36.500 DPS currently. While that would be amazing years ago, it's pretty bad for a cDPS build in the current meta that has been powercrept over multiple years. cDPS Firebrand does need DPS improvements.

Mesmer:

Again something I don't understand. Why nerf Mirage? I get the nerfs for competitive modes and with that, I'm actually fine. Why nerf Chaos Vortex though? Alacrity Mirage is already a very situational build. Nerfing it further may even push it out of that niche, in turn making it unviable to begin with.

I also don't understand the Virtuosu-nerfs/changes. Why remove the block of Bladeturn Requiem - especially in PvE? That's one of the skills which allowed you to BK at Deimos, for example. Why turn Unstable Bladestorm into a ground-targeted spell? The existing version is perfectly fine. Ground-targeted spells are often just more clunky/annoying to use.

Necromancer:

I'm looking forward towards Scourge getting access to Alacrity, but changing boon conversion into boon removal or downright deleting boon conversion entirely will most likely kill the build/specialization entirely - at the very least in competitive modes. If you don't offset this with buffs in other regards, Scourge is useless - especially since you're also nerfing support-options.

As I've said, I'm looking forward to Scourge getting access to Alacrity. I do hope though that you increase the radius of Desert Empowerment and Sandstorm Shroud or else Scourge will be very clunky to use properly - especially in encounters which require a lot of movement. I you don't, you simply end up with the typical problem with static wells other builds also suffered or still suffer from.

Ranger:

I do like removing Alacrity from spirits, I don't like putting it entirely into Celestial Avatar though. This may not turn Druid into a more flexible build - you may even achieve the opposite in making it more unflexible. You can't just nilly-willy enter CA whenever you want.

I don't see the Quickness you've added to Untamed?

Revenant:

I'm torn on the Herald-changes. Will Quickness now pulse if you have sufficient upkeep-points? Will this lead to you loosing DPS since consuming facets will now be punished?

[Radiancee.6537]

I really hope this won't go live. So many problems with some changes, even partly unnecessary. Especially when I look at the Scourge or the Scrapper. Nobody really asked for Alac for the Scourge. Now you give the Scourge Alac, which is actually fine, but at the same time take something away.

 

I really hope for you, ANet, that you won't ignore this feedback like last year. We all know what happened.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Radiancee.6537

[melodyspectrum.2980]

Dear Anet,

Please get someone who actually plays scrapper on the balance team.

[Polar.8634]

i hoped for this patch because they said lame weapons will be fixed, still no changes for rev hammer and shield. 

Instead, they they also realized it is unfair heal vindi is not played only in pve, so they nerfed it in wvw too. I agree it's healing output was too strong, but its cleance was the weakest among other popular cleancers. Where anet take there data, idk.

Draconic echo change - small buff to roam herald maybe in pvp. Not a game changer.

change to malyx - anet pls read description of most traits in traitline, and realize they all were built on old resistance not just 1 you changed. current change adds some cleance it is something but nearly not enough to fix malyx.

Banish Enchantment - you beat dead horse here. this is only used in gvg. this change makes already dead skill even deader in general wvw.

also quickness change to herald. i like overall idea, its better then it is now. but why it is in heal trait. Herald already has very high healing output. you try to promote heal herald with this( but it needs aegis or easier stab, not more heal) and nerf quick dps. so heal herald stays mediocre (in comparison) and quickdps gets nerfed.

Overall, another tasteless nerfs to rev this patch.

also why changed blood scourge, it was cool and unique, now is just bad healer.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Polar.8634

[Furball.1236]

1 hour ago, Endaris.1452 said:

Giving Sanctuary a lower base CD is unhealthy for the game.

It already chokes out other classes in terms of CC significantly and this only intensifies the issue.

But how is this a problem to the gameplay experience of the party?

[Hologram.2810]

Seriously, no boon corruption? That is defining trait of the class and stacks quite well with the condi version of the elite specs.

What is the point of getting rid of that and the revival of allies? You forgot that each class has its own unique motif that should reflect on the powers instead of trying to make it homogeneous? Rethink this one or you'll kill your already dwindling playerbase outside of super casual PVE content.

 

[Geats.6079]

1 hour ago, Decinomicon.4619 said:

Or a warrior sword for that matter

Maybe it's a mode thing, I run GS and Sword/Axe zerker(WvW) and I've know of power SpB builds that run this same weapon set up(WvW also).

[Certero.2594]

As someone who multiclass and has been in alacdps jail for months I swap between 3 choices:

Alacdps Ren: Great CC and damage and can swap to stab or proyectile block if needed (only play this in fractals)
Alacdps Mech: Very strong and versatile, easy to play and comes with blink
Alacdps Specter: Not that great, but it has some unique things that make it invaluable:

• Shadestep: You lose some dps, but the ability to resurrect people at a distance on low cooldown has made some of our runs, specially on KO CM and OLC CM much more bearable

After this is removed alongside Shallow Grave that, while less useful, can also be used for a similar effect, I'll be effectively removing Alacdps Specter from my repertoire, as that revive on F1 was really the only reason I had for picking it over other options.

As for other alacdps, Chrono is definitely not coming back with these changes, might make it as popular as quick chrono. Alacdps scourge might be a thing, but it'll feel dirty to play as pretty much the rest of scourge class was sacrificed to make it work. Willbender is still clunky. Not sure about warrior and ranger, will need to test those out.

[Shinome.6093]

Can I ask what in the hell was the balance person smoking? I can only speak as a necro main, but, what in the all living hell is this ???? Wasn't the entire point of Scourge to be a condition kitten? Corrupting them and making the enemy regret ever buffing? You're about to ruin the entire Scourge just to make me spam F1s to try and keep up with engineers and guardians.

If it's to choose between Scourge having alac, and Scourge staying as it is, then I want it to stay as it is. Absolute bollocks changes.

[intomatar.4539]

Better add to Thousand Seas Pavilion the ability to receive Offinsive and Defensive protocols.

[MrSmith.9643]

Please Anet don't delete healscourge, it's a unique build impossible to find elsewhere, reviving people is what a necro should excel at. You already heard us well with the scrapper identity issue please hear us again about the necro 😢

[Extacy.6192]

Just a few general comments (from an experienced WvW player):

1. We need class identity, not every class has to be able to give alac/quickness. Especially not for WvW / sPvP. Don't ruin these gamemodes because of PvE. The ability to give alac/quickness always comes with drawbacks/nerfs (as it should be)...
   For example Necros should be able to corrupt boons - that is one of their identities - an absolute shame to nerf this!
    
2. WvW: Boon ball VS Strips/Corrupts - completely out of hand! In the last balance talk a few months ago u promised to monitor this situation. So it seems u came to the conclusion, that there are still too many strips/corrupts in the game?! PLEASE actually play WvW... this is ridiculous. Just ask experienced players, no shame to ask for help.
    
3. Don't make the combat to "spammy". Not every skill has to have a sub <40s cooldown! Don't balance everything on golem dps benchmarks

 

A few more specific notes:

• Please allow the summoned elementals to go underwater and stay after mount/dismount
• Arc Divider - please make the new radius at least like the current stage 2 radius! + fury!
• DPS tempest changes very lacking and lazy - i thought u were against having to spam utilities skills just to upkeep a dps buff... no consistency in your philosophy

PLEASE think about it! For WvW this is a disaster! Adjust boons vs strips AND CORRUPTS (they need to stay -> class identity and for cover boons, condi specs are even at the moment very lackluster in large scale fights)

Edited June 10, 2023 by Extacy.6192

[Reddwar.7392]

Please for the love of Grenth do not go ahead with the necro changes, I would rather not have alacrity than lose all that revive capability.  The revives add so much flavour to the necromancer class and feel awesome to use in metas, they're the reason I made a necro in the first place.  You've already taken water trident from my elementalist in addition to feeling forced to drop aura healing for alacrity, please stop killing all my favorite support builds. 😞

If Quickness and Alacrity are so strong that you need to start forcing them into every build just to make them viable, then the solution should be to nerf the effects of quickness and alacrity to bring them more inline with other boons so that it's ok for a class to not have access to them.   I generally find that providing quick/alac is not a fun role to play in my opinion and shouldn't be something you have to create a whole build around.

[GlennAngel.5360]

We see MMOs all time remove class diversity and fantasy for the sake of homogenization. Heal Scourge had a beautiful niche not touched upon in any other game. That's what makes GW2 so amazing and refreshing, designs like this. A necromancer able to bring back their allies from the downstate easily is too good of a mechanic for it to be gutted just so Scourge can have another form of a cooldown reduction that every class can now provide. Let the specs be unique even if its not overly popular. Let specs keep their fantasy in a genre of games where every class is being reduced to their damage numbers and pick rates. Please rethink this tuning and "balance nerfs" for an added featured that wasn't asked for or expected.

[Bazsi.2734]

I went in kind of wanting to hate this... but upon reading it all, I actually don't. Of course there are some things I disagree with, but these are such great changes that I can't fully anticipate how things will turn out once this goes live.

One thing I'd like to point out though: you guys said you're working on making firebrand a more viable support. Yet core guard support will be way better next patch while Firebrand is basicly the same.

Also speaking of firebrand, we'd love to see reworks/rebalances on dead skills like firebrand heal mantra or the deadeye elite. Not everything can be meta, but making skills abolutely useless and just leaving them there for months/years is... bad.

[reiwyvern.8167]

Hello,

I've never posted in the forums all these years but merely lurked, because I've always been content to just read and move on, but I cannot keep my silence this time, and hope my comment would also be considered, so thank you in advance!  (and please be gentle^^")

 

TL;DR version:
- changing almost the entire Acrobatics trait line for the thief class causes an effect of 'funneling' everyone into one or two playstyles from a WvW perspective, which seems to be against the original 'alternate playstyle' idea of the balance patch.

 

Detailed version:

As a foreword, this is speaking from a WvW perspective.

Most thieves would have one base trait line that almost every build runs: which is either Shadow Arts or Deadly Arts, and followed by their elite specialization (unless running core thief).

 

Basically most thief builds tend to look like this:

• Shadow Arts or Deadly Arts 
• [player choice]
• Elite specialization

 

This leaves only one more trait line for the player to pick, and, depending on the preferred playstyle of the player, usually it would fall into one of the three choices:

1. Critical Strikes (CS) --- > for an aggressive, burstly playstyle. An extremely deadly, 'high risk, high reward' playstyle.
2. Trickery (Tr) --- > for a more versatile, survival playstyle that is still deadly.
3. Acrobatics (Ac) --- > for a defensive playstyle. Not deadly, but safe.

Which trait line you pick for this last trait is key to how the build feels when you play. It basically changes the flavor of how the thief functions.

Most meta builds that's popular on build websites promote using CS and Tr, so I can see how it almost feels like Ac is not useful. The truth is that it actually does have very important roles in WvW, which is that of scouts or as 'safe', defensive builds that allows players to traverse and move around the map quickly, using seige, tapping keeps, ambushing yaks/sentries, etc.

 

If I may bring your focus to the changes in the patch, notice how out of the 7 changes you've listed for core thief traits, 6 of them are from the Acrobatics line? And how the changes to most of them aren't just nerfs or buffs to the time/cooldowns, it's actually fundamental reworks of how the trait itself functions?

If the original reason for such changes is to allow for more alternative playstyles, then this actually results in the opposite, funneling people into just the two 'flavors' of thief builds that's mentioned above (aggressive and survival only, no more defensive).

 

If the reason for the changes is due to underusage in PVE scenarios, may I suggest that perhaps allowing the traits to function differently in PvE vs WvW scenarios, or, if that is not possible, would you consider not changing so many of them, but just some of them?

My suggestion would be to leave these few as it is pre-patch:

• Pain Response
• Guarded Initiation

And to change this trait slightly as well:

• "Endless Stamina: This trait has been reworked and renamed Fluid Strikes. It now grants the thief a damage bonus for a period of time after using a movement skill or completing a shadowstep." Add dodge roll as an option to proc it, but have an internal cooldown. (this is so that ranged thieves like deadeyes who have drastically less movement skills can still utilize this trait)***

 

If somehow the reason for the changes is to nerf the skills' effect in WvW scenarios, then I would suggest this instead:

• Pain Response - keep the regeneration, but remove the conditions-removal effect
• Guarded Initiation - keep it as it is prepatch, but add an internal cooldown of 5 seconds
• Endless Stamina - keep the effects of enhanced vigor, but remove the bonus concentration. Alternatively, go with what I've listed in***

 

I hope my reasons and suggestions would be considered, as having these multiple 'flavors' creates a diverse function for the thief, ranging from a deadly assassin, a flashy rogue, to a silent ghost; which is what I think makes the class so interesting and diverse to play. It would be really sad to see everything just eventually merge into one or two playstyles 😞

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this comment.

Edited June 10, 2023 by reiwyvern.8167

[GeraldBC.4927]

I watched the entire balance stream and was going to come here and give some choice words on some balance changes, but Yve.2045 above has already addressed some of them very accurately. But aside from that

Necro

As another person said, I think on page 15, taking away boon corrupts from the scepter doesn't improve WvW in any way. The meta in WvW already consists of forming boonblobs and simply spamming boons to keep people alive. It doesn't need less boonstrips and boon corrupts, it needs more. Give the necro his boon corrupts back, give him even more boon corrupts and give more boonstrips and boon corrupts to other classes that previously didn't have any, or give more to others that didn't have as many. 

Taking away the scepter's boon corrupts or other boon corrupts in general, only hurts the necromancer in pve by taking away a lot of damaging conditions from passively corrupted boons. It impacts the necromancer uniquely in a way that other classes and the players thereof, never cared about in the first place. I guarantee you no mesmer, elementalist, revenant or anything else ever cared if the necromancer gets to apply a few more stacks of poison, bleed or torment. 

For reasons described above, this change feels like it is designed to hurt necromancers just for its own sake, with no conceivable reason to justify it. 

Harbinger

Why would you take this spec, a spec that is already barely played at all and looked down upon for being weaker than other specs, and nerf it further? Why would you take the damage increases from blight - one of the most crucial components of his kit and cut it in half? Which harbinger hurt you this much? 

Scourge

I understand that you want to curb an easy 3-button alacrity spam, but cutting the lifespan of a shade down to a third, essentially forcing a weaker version of sand savant onto everyone, is not the way to go about it. The game already has a solution you claim to address here baked into it with how it treats conditions given by shades. Simply have all the barriers and alacrity apply once per application, rather than once per shade on every application.

Having multiple shades out so you can tackle multiple enemies at once is crucial to scourge's kit and class identity, especially condition scourge. In general you seem to either have completely forgotten that condition dps scourge is a thing that exists, or at least you pretend to have forgotten. The "forced discount sand savant" thing also means scourges can't utilize Sand Sage anymore and that is after it has already - to my memory at least - cut down from a general condition damage increase to a simple expertise increase. 

 

Overall an abysmal set of balance changes, not just for points addressed above but across the board with all classes. It seems to me like someone on the balance team, Cal Cohen specifically, had some incident where a necro, a harbinger, scourge or both, repeatedly killed him in pvp/wvw or where one of each outdid him in dps in some encounter. And how he's dead set on brute forcing a shutdown of that ever happening again in a way that affects everyone else in an undue way. 

[Girth.9731]

Quote

 

Mending: Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds in PvE only.

 

 

 

Anet, I know this must be a typo because Mending already has a cooldown of 15 seconds in PvE. However, if it is not and you actually intend not to reduce the cooldown of Mending in PvP/WvW, please let me inform you why that is an absolutely horrible decision.

This small oversight will further kill what little build diversity is left on Warrior. Core Strength Warrior = nerfed. Strength Spellbreaker = nerfed. Strength Bladesworn = nerfed. These builds are already mediocre compared with the X/Defense/Discipline builds and will become even worse if you remove the best reason to take the Strength tree in the first place.

If you are hardstuck on nerfing Mending for Stength builds, I would HIGHLY recommend adding some type of sustain buff to the Strength tree to compensate. Perhaps increase the healing of Might Makes Right for example. Or add a 20% reduction to heal skill cooldown to a very underpowered trait like Restorative Strength.

In short, if you do not intent to reduce the cooldown of Mending in PvP/WvW you will actually be hurting Warrior build diversity by making the best builds better (Bull's Charge now has a 24 seconds cooldown baseline) and the mediocre builds worse. I know this must be an oversight. Please reconsider nerfing the already very dead Strength tree. Thank you.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Girth.9731

[Magnus.9046]

Oh please don't take the scourge revival. I personally don't care about alacrity or extra fury. I use my necromancer for fractals and people don't complain that anything is missing. Yeah the healing is not great but if someone goes down I get them up so no one cares.

This will ruin the support. There are enough other classes to provide the needed boons. It's not needed for everyone to have it. It's a lot nicer gameplay to have a few people who have important roles. 

No one asks for a scourge healer in fractals. That's okay there are better healers. But after this change I won't even be able to revive the team if they go down. And the healing isn't even better. There is regen on the well now, but I had 100% uptime on my regen anyway.

You guys do great work and I thank you for making a great game. But please don't break my favorite support build for scourge.

[Myror.7521]

@ZEUStiger.3590 still dont get why you guys hate the Arc Divider Rework so mutch. Its Just a straigth Up buff and not a Nerf! At least in PvP. For PvE instanced it might going to be a nerf but nothing you can't fix by Numbers tweaking.

@Cal Cohen.2358 Overall this Balance patch is just a good step into right direction when it comes to warr so thx for it and keep up the good work

Edited June 10, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Viridian Dusk.8465]

Heal Scourge was a huge flavor win for Necro. Reworking it into a alac support (a bad one at that) absolutely removes any class identity it had. Nobody is going to want a HS in their squad after this. It's revive potential is what made up for it's mediocre healing. Now it just does what everyone else can do.

If you're gutting everything unique to necromancer just to give it access to alacrity, it's not worth it. By all means nerf it but please don't take away what makes them interesting and fun.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Viridian Dusk.8465

[Reploid.2809]

On 6/8/2023 at 11:12 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Kinetic Accelerators: This trait has been reworked. Apply boons to nearby allies when you successfully combo with a blast or leap finisher. Your function gyro is now a blast finisher.

Please don't do this. Having a bunch of gyros to get 100% up time on quickness is better because you can activate them outside of combat and you don't have to make erratic movements that might get you killed in combat, like hammer 3. You are still going to be forced to take skills that give combo fields and finishers too. This doesn't solve anything. Rethink how to rework the traits!

[Urud.4925]

I lost count of how many times the behaviour of banners and spirits has been changed over the years. It seems nobody knows what to do with them.

It's probably too early to jump on the gun, we should see how it works, but thematically, I expected a quickness build to stay on the spellbreaker while the berserker should get some dps boost (they are too close now and after the patch I'm not sure it will make even sense to play spellbreaker). Adding quickness to the deadeye, which in theory should be a powerful but slow sniper, instead of a daredevil for example (in exchange for some damage) seems also weird.

[Myror.7521]

@Girth.9731 the reason you use strength is not straight up the CD of this skills. The reasons are the DPS buffs plus might makes right. Strength will be still pretty decent while Builds that using this skills but not strength saw a small buff though it so its Just okay over all ^^

[ZEUStiger.3590]

6 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@ZEUStiger.3590 still dont get why you guys hate the Arc Divider Rework so mutch. Its Just a straigth Up buff and not a Nerf! At least in PvP. For PvE instanced IT might going to be a nerf but nothing you can't fix by Numbers tweaking.

 

I described my reasoning for PvE in plenty of details. As far as PvP is concerned - I've heard plenty of good reasons why this is a nerf in PvP as well: blocking/avoiding 1 attack is much easier than blocking/avoiding 3 attacks, so good luck with landing that F1 now.