The Banish Cooldown Change IS NOT optimal (wvw)

[MysteryDude.1572]

The colldown that is about to implemented in banish will kill the flow/synergy in renegade.

with gvg and smallscale in mind and to a less extend roaming/zerging , the banish in general feels a bit too much with lower numbers of enemy players involved , kinda nessesarry in roaming vs boon classes and trying to compete with scourge in large squads.

Since overall boonstriping is getting lowered in general with the new patch , lower the target cap/ strips of the skill , DO NOT add a cooldown.

with the very specific rotation it has, the strips you achieve is (3x5)x3 = 45 boons  in mallyx, 60 boons in second swap to mallyx .

There are other ways of changing boonstrip, example: target cap and srips form banish enchantment can be lowered to 2 strips per 3 targets = 18 / 24 boons per swap

even lowering boonstrip with 2 strips per 4 targets and its still gona result in 24 / 36 boons per swap. compared to overall boon aplication that exists from classes  (boon runes used PER party are 2 dura runes / 1 pack , in some cases ) it will still strip enough without beeing overkill.

The strip build uses charged mists to gain exra energy for all other support skills involded ( dwarf, alacrity).  IF the banish gets a colldown , legend swaps are gonna be over 10% energy cause the energy replenish will be faster from the skill usage with the intent of lowering the energy.

so every 2nd swap will not be using charged mists and not gaining full benefit from the overall interaction for skill usage on next legend.

there also will be dead times between banish that need to be filled with skills that are not needed and mallyx will always have overecess energy going to waste.

in roaming it is not that spamable since you need to researve energy for dps skills, also loosing all of the energy for a 10% fill is not ideal cause it might not be a need for a legend swap yet, so legend swap is forced for overall energy starvation.

Overall boonstrip CAN be decreased, however puting a cooldown on bashish will sacrifice the choise of handling how many corrupts you wish to deliver. Sometimes there are instances of blowing all the strips/energy and sometimes there are instances of swaping early to dwarf situationally, in resulting corupting less. There are also instances letting the entire energy on a legend refill without the need for a legendswap. It is just the additional benefit not gained from charged mist in case of legendswaping early .

i feel  the cooldown implementation is gona take away an option of gameplay this specific specialization has for any specific gameplay that strips are used for.

Edited June 10, 2023 by MysteryDude.1572

[Virdo.1540]

I hope theyll lower the energy cost again. That change that generated some sort of cooldown shall not be forgotten

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

The cost of the skill is already too high to make it spammable anyways.  That said, they’re are times when you want to use it in quick succession, such as vs a boonspam class.  This nerf is not needed.  They already nerfed it with the higher energy cost, now this?   If this going through, the devs need to rescind that energy cost nerf.
 

that being said, I am not a fan of CDs on Rev. at all!  It goes against everything the class was supposed to be in conception and only serves to unnecessarily double penalize the class just for using their skills.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Like i mentioned long ago, matter of time where everything will have cd and ofc energy cost cuz why not?
Weapon skills - lower cds than other classes but added energy cost as tradeoff. What it is today? Exactly..
Utilities - free of cd supposed to be manageable by energy resource by players. Nop. Manage energy and cd now boi

I honestly have no idea how any of u can still play rev. Dead concept. Clean as day they are clueless what to do with rev so why not rework energy mechanic?

[Sereath.1428]

And eventually that 5 second cooldown will become 12.
Phase Traversal moment
This kitten is annoying.

[phokus.8934]

56 minutes ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

And eventually that 5 second cooldown will become 12.
Phase Traversal moment
This kitten is annoying.

5s to 12s in pvp with 35 energy is pure madness.  This is why CMC and his team are not good at balancing anything in this game other than diarrheaing buffs out to Ele.

[Shao.7236]

Those changes are so specific in their nature. They dont address the so called problem passively, they neuter it completely which is unheard of.

By the time the cooldown is off you have nearly the same energy back so it's quite a undesirable change in the dynamic.

Not even adding more strips or confusion back, given how the application of boons in most skills tend to be super biased towards keeping the most important protected be the layer of weaker ones makes Banish Enchantment extra pointless because you'll often end up only removing might, swiftness and protection but not Stability or Resistance which are those that normally requires 2 banishes to work.

Besides, it takes half of the energy to make boon removal effective as a single player. I can't imagine that there are often groups of Mallyx players to spam it anyway, that introduces it's own set of weaknesses to a party as well.

[Polar.8634]

how many boons can firebrand produce during 5 seconds?

how many revenants is needed to strip firebrand of boons?

[Shao.7236]

On 6/19/2023 at 5:23 PM, phokus.8934 said:

5s to 12s in pvp with 35 energy is pure madness.  This is why CMC and his team are not good at balancing anything in this game other than diarrheaing buffs out to Ele.

I'd argue that PT is really strong and is better this way because adding anymore energy would make it impossible to use any skills from OCC immediately. View it more like Forced Engagement where it has a CD and relative cost to the other skills to be used.

PT made it so easy to rotate and games would easily turn bad because of 2 revs farming players roaming 1 by 1.

As it is the skill is at the worst it can be without breaking the game and it still is pretty good.

[Polar.8634]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

PT made it so easy to rotate and games would easily turn bad because of 2 revs farming players roaming 1 by 1.

it cannot be reason to nerf anything. 

imagine 2 *anyclass" using "anyskill" to farm players roaming 1 by 1.

or better, imagine 3 *anyclass* using *anyskill* to farm players. omg, everything should be nerfed!

5 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I can't imagine that there are often groups of Mallyx players to spam it anyway

that skill is only used in wvw group fights, there it could be used on stacked targets 3 times to remove lot of boons fast. 

[Shao.7236]

5 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

imagine 2 *anyclass" using "anyskill" to farm players roaming 1 by 1.

Don't strawman me without context. 1200 target shadowsteps every 5 second is not comparable to anything else other professions could offer not counting what Herald shiro can do.

Why are we not seeing it with anything else? Literally until it was nerfed every games in high ranks were double heralds that did this exact thing and since then we don't see it. There is no class that can port so much and suck up damage as much as Revenant while glass. Just show me any class that can do the same at the degree that Herald Shiro could.

Phase Traversal is right in the balanced spot for anything, doing whatever will just make it a problem again.

5 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

That skill is only used in wvw group fights, there it could be used on stacked targets 3 times to remove lot of boons fast. 

Only used? I have plenty reasons to use that skill. WvW factor in consideration it's not energy or cds that needs to be touched but the amount of boons instead if that's so much of an issue. Make it 2 removals rather than 3, all the more reasons to keep the cooldown away and instead reduce energy back to 20. Anet has no concept of alternative paths in skills, typically they only see it all black and white.

[Polar.8634]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Don't strawman me without context. 1200 target shadowsteps every 5 second is not comparable to anything else other professions could offer not counting what Herald shiro can do.

Thief can with SB and steal, more if sword is taken, and blink, Mesmer can with blink and mimic, or use double dodge on mirage sword after patch, more if we add blink, ele can sword 2 and blink, or hammer 4 into refresh elite and blink for more, ranger can with bird pet plus gs3, will bender can use every skill as port and then refresh them and do that again. That's what came to mind first.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Polar.8634

[Shao.7236]

9 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

Thief can with SB and steal, more if sword is taken, and blink, Mesmer can with blink and mimic, or use double dodge on mirage sword after patch, more if we add blink, ele can sword 2 and blink, or hammer 4 into refresh elite and blink for more, ranger can with bird pet plus gs3, will bender can use every skill as port and then refresh them and do that again. That's what came to mind first.

But does that offer the same degree of being able to teleport every 5 seconds while having Infuse Light or all the possible sustain to chain like Revenant has? Trying to get one Revenant can be a time consuming effort, 2 doubles the effort. I would like to believe that Thief could potentially achieve similar as what people would do but Thief is squishy and Thief burst requires way more of an elaborate setup to be effective, Rev can make it happen almost instantly and that damage is often more than 60% health taken away on glassy specs.

I don't think Ele has that potential, too elaborate. Guardian could but that'd be every 45 seconds without trait which is a far cry from Rev. 

It's well just that the efficiency of Phase Traversal with everything else was simply too good and needed some change, energy is high enough, the range absolutely must not be touched, that only left one option.

[Polar.8634]

1 minute ago, Shao.7236 said:

It's well just that the efficiency of Phase Traversal with everything else was simply too good and needed some change, energy is high enough, the range absolutely must not be touched, that only left one option.

I'd argue, several smaller ports are better to keep distance and chase then one long. Yes, you can port 1200 to will bender, he will use small port, u use sword 5, another small port from willy, u use second port, then willy can decide to use another port or kill you because you over invested energy with ports. 

It applies to other classes, what i used to do to kill herald was to make him overinvest in chase and kill him with cc when he does not have energy and cooldowns. Used to, because herald is so balanced now that i did not see it in pvp forever . Sometimes it is condi version, does not use shiro .

Well, it is actually balanced, now rev cannot overuse energy on ports, because CD does not allow him to do so, big buff!

[Jaykay.9641]

I understand the Banish Enchantment CD is tailored to limit boon strip in blob fights, but this change nukes the condi Rev roaming variants even worse.

My take is to lower the Banish Ench. energy cost to 25 and have the cooldown scale based on enemies hit, such as 1 sec per enemy hit. If Banish Ench. hits all 5 targets like in a blob fight, the CD goes to 5 secs. If it his one enemy, it's only a 1 sec CD. This allows Condi Rev's to keep the versatility of the low CD and affects the blob fights as it's intended.

ANet has already dabbled with these types of abilities such Untamed Unatural Traversal CD reduction if enemy hit, I'm sure they can code something like an ability to scale CD off of multiple enemies hit as well.

[Polar.8634]

1 minute ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

 

2 minutes ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

keep the versatility of the low CD

 

Ye that's what annoys me most every time they increase CD on rev utility, it is supposed to be class with short CD but energy cost as compromise, with fast skills, and they keep making rev more slow 

[Shao.7236]

5 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

I'd argue, several smaller ports are better to keep distance and chase then one long. Yes, you can port 1200 to will bender, he will use small port, u use sword 5, another small port from willy, u use second port, then willy can decide to use another port or kill you because you over invested energy with ports. 

It applies to other classes, what i used to do to kill herald was to make him overinvest in chase and kill him with cc when he does not have energy and cooldowns. Used to, because herald is so balanced now that i did not see it in pvp forever . Sometimes it is condi version, does not use shiro .

Well, it is actually balanced, now rev cannot overuse energy on ports, because CD does not allow him to do so, big buff!

Well the good point you bring is that Willbender was a better Shiro for a while until they fixed that up too. It's clearly not good for the game and I'd agree to that.

[Polar.8634]

6 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Well the good point you bring is that Willbender was a better Shiro for a while until they fixed that up too. It's clearly not good for the game and I'd agree to that.

Yes, willy or herald see almost no play in pvp, and I agree with you it is good for game. Only few steps left to balance other professions in same manner, and then scrap pvp because it doesn't deserve attention from devs, they better work on wvw instead 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Polar.8634